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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Jun 1996

Vol. 467 No. 4

Control of Horses Bill, 1996: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed; "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

As I said the previous day we debated this Bill, I very much welcome its introduction after a long delay. The issue of wandering horses is a very big one in my constituency, as it is in many Dublin constituencies. I make no apology for raising this issue on a number of occasions by way of parliamentary question and Adjournment debate. I was very angered at the undue delay in bringing forward the Bill. It seems issues affecting the Dublin area, particularly working class areas, do not get the priority they deserve, and part of the reason relates to the rural bias that is reflected in the composition of this House.

My interest in this matter and the reason I raised it on a number of occasions is that many of my constituents have brought it to my attention. It is an issue that affects at least 50 per cent of my constituency. Many residents experience difficulties in terms of resources to deal with issues which have been neglected by Dublin Corporation in the environmental, housing and services areas. In recent years there has been a distinct fight-back by communities in taking charge of their areas and making efforts to improve the amenity value of the area. In my area of Finglas there has been a huge success rate in that regard. Many Dublin Corporation housing estates were award winners in tidy district competitions. That came about as a result of enormous effort on the part of individual residents and residents' associations.

Regrettably, however, in recent years much of that work has been seriously undermined. Residents involved in cleaning their areas, planting shrubs and trees and tidying grass verges have experienced great difficulty because of the presence of large numbers of horses in their areas. This issue was raised at practically every residents' association meeting I attended. It is very demoralising for people trying to improve their areas to see their work undone by wandering horses. In addition, the presence of wandering horses in gardens or in open green spaces, together with joyriding and motorbike riding by underage teenagers, adds significantly to the sense of lawlessness that pervades many Dublin Corporation housing estates and damages morale among local people who are trying to improve their areas.

I have received an increasing number of complaints from sports groups whose pitches are being seriously damaged and fouled by wandering horses. This is common in areas of my constituency such as Ballymun, Finglas West and Finglas South where people are putting enormous effort into developing community and sports facilities. Much of that good work is being undone because of the presence of wandering horses.

I welcome the Bill. I am concerned this is only the second stage of controlling the problem of wandering horses. It seems it will be quite some time before new laws are in place and operating on the ground and it probably will be a long time before we see any concrete results from this Bill.

I urge the Minister not to delay in dealing with this matter. I do not simply mean the passage of the Bill through this House. There are a number of areas in which regulations will have to be introduced and local authorities must ensure that they introduce the necessary by-laws with sufficient haste to deal with the problem in the near future. Much follow-up work needs to be done after the passage of the Bill and I hope the Minister will see that work to fruition.

When I contributed to the earlier debate on the Bill I referred to my frustration, as a Dublin Deputy, at the delay in bringing this legislation before the House. We must consider the problems that have been caused by the delay in dealing with this issue, which was brought to the attention of this Government and the previous Government. Ideally we should have dealt with this issue comprehensively five years ago when the problem was only beginning, but many additional problems have arisen in that period in relation to horse ownership.

The practice has developed whereby children who have acquired a large amount of money, say, when they make their confirmation or first holy communion, are buying a horse instead of a bike, which was the tradition in the past. Horse ownership has become extremely common among young people in many working class Dublin communities. There is now enormous interest in horse ownership and every aspect of horses.

A positive aspect of horse ownership among children is that many of them had little interest in school and, therefore, had few opportunities to come into contact with nature. That is understandable given the concrete jungle surroundings in which many people in the Dublin area live. These children now have an opportunity to become involved with animals, their care and welfare. They learn equestrian skills and many of them are involved in ad hoc horse projects which are interesting pastimes for them. Those projects are a source of motivation for the children and, as my colleague Deputy Broughan remarked, it is not a coincidence that since horse ownership has greatly increased in the Dublin area, the incidence of joyriding has reduced significantly.

It is important that we recognise the favourable developments that have taken place in the recent years and the new traditions that have developed. The unfavourable aspect of horse ownership is the cruelty inflicted on some animals, the damage they cause to property and the danger they pose to young children and to motorists. For those reasons it is important that there be no delay in introducing this legislation.

I realise the Minister of State is probably not very enthusiastic about this idea, given that he is in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. That is not a reflection on him.

He is very interested.

Issues relating to projects in urban areas do not normally come within the remit of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, but I ask him to take a further step and examine proposals that can be developed in terms of community projects.

I have had discussions with horse owners in my constituency who are keen to have an opportunity to develop this interest among young people. I have had discussions also with representatives of FÁS and various youth services and I believe there is enormous potential for developing community projects with all the benefits that accrue from those. FÁS has expressed an interest in this regard and aspects of that involvement have been developed in areas such as Cherry Orchard and Fettercairn.

There is great potential to provide a community facility so that children and teenagers can enjoy all the benefits of the equestrian world that many other people enjoy as a matter of course. They will learn about nature as well as horse care and welfare. Priority should be given to such a development which could be sponsored by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry.

A number of horse owners in my constituency are concerned that a development such as the one I mentioned would not go far enough in meeting their demands. When this legislation is introduced many people will protest that they have the right to own a horse— they may have owned an animal for the past two or three years. That right cannot be upheld because people should not have the right to own a horse when they do not have suitable surroundings in which to keep the animal.

There is a need to draw the line with horse owners and the various organisations with which they are involved. We cannot expect local authorities to provide stabling for horses as demanded by many of the groups involved in this area. They want local authorities to provide stabling and sufficient land in the vicinity of the stables to enable them to keep the horses. That is not possible because our local authorities, and particularly Dublin Corporation, are not able to cope with the demand for housing for people. We should not therefore, expect our local authorities to be responsible for providing stabling.

Many young children and teenagers in working class areas in particular have access to horses. They have opportunities to share in the ownership of horses but that does not mean everybody should have the right to own their own horse and that a stable or land should be provided to enable persons to exercise their horses. It is important to draw that distinction. We must recognise the positive aspects of the habits and traditions that have developed in the past five years in the Dublin area and make provisions for them by encouraging community projects.

I am concerned that the implementation of this measure will be shelved. It must be driven by the local authorities. I would like to see control areas extending to the full county area and Dublin Corporation will be one of the first local authorities to do that. As the problem spreads to surrounding counties their county councils will put bylaws in place so they too can operate control areas.

The Estimates probably underestimate the cost of implementing this legislation. Local authorities will have to employ horse wardens because the situation is out of control in many areas. It is all very well to have legislation in place, but unless we have the personnel to implement it, it will not have an impact. I urge the Minister of State to make sufficient resources available to ensure that local authorities can employ designated staff to tackle the problem. I also ask the Minister of State to give favourable consideration to the reasonable request that working class children who have access to horses at present will continue to have such access, although in a more regulated fashion.

I am glad to have the opportunity to comment on the Bill. Deputy Shortall referred to the equestrian industry and equestrian activities for young people. There is an excellent international equestrian centre in Cavan — the Cavan Equestrian Centre — which provides substantial employment for people in the local area. It has an ongoing programme of showjumping and sales throughout the year. Purchasers come from all over Europe for the sales. There is also a substantial breeding programme.

Many of the young people in my constituency have developed a great interest in the equestrian industry and some of them have attended Thomastown vocational school which provides a post leaving certificate course in equestrian studies. I agree with Deputy Shortall that this sector could be of tremendous benefit both from the point of view of tourism and from the point of view of recreation for our young people. It also has the potential to create employment on a large scale. More emphasis should be put on equestrian studies, particularly in centres where post leaving certificate courses are available. Equestrian studies have been a phenomenal success. Courses are adaptable to local employment opportunities and this is an area that should be given greater attention. Students who attended the courses in Thomastown told me they were very satisfied with the course content and management and, on completion of the courses, with the subsequent availability of employment.

I am glad the Minister of State will be receptive to worthwhile, positive amendments from all sides of the House. I compliment my colleague, Deputy Kenneally, who introduced an earlier Bill, the Control and Regulation of Horses Bill, 1996. It is not easy for the Opposition spokesperson, without back-up facilities, to draft legislation. Deputy Kenneally's legislation was comprehensive and dealt with the issues covered by the Bill currently before the House. The Government's Bill is substantial and is generally supported by this side of the House. Deputy Kenneally said he would put forward amendments on Committee Stage and I hope the Minister of State will give them practical and reasonable consideration.

Listening to one of the programmes on our national radio station as I drove to Dublin this morning, I was appalled to hear about the number of animal deaths this year. A representative of the Dublin Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals spoke about the number of animals that have died and the number of telephone calls the organisation had received before noon today reporting instances of animals lacking the necessary food and water. It is appalling that animals are being treated in such a manner in the suburbs of this city and, unfortunately, throughout the country. The problem of stray animals and wandering horses is not confined to Dublin. They are also a problem in other urban centres although not on the same scale. The Minister of State said all worthwhile suggestions would be considered favourably and I hope he will incorporate practical suggestions from this side of the House, particularly from Deputy Kenneally, on Committee Stage.

This issue has been a major concern to many Deputies in recent years. Many of my colleagues in Fianna Fáil have called for the enactment of legislation to control wandering horses in urban areas. It is unacceptable that this problem has been allowed to continue for so long. We are aware of the fatalities that have occurred as well as the damage to persons and property, all of which could have been avoided had the proper controls been in place and enforced. Deputy Kenneally introduced a practical Bill and some of the sections in it and in the Government's Bill are similar. At present we have the intolerable situation where we do not have proper controls for keeping horses. The controls provided for in this legislation must be enforced. It is highly dangerous that horses can roam freely in public places and be a menace to persons and property. A licence or identification system for animals of such size and mobility must be put in place. Section 28 will empower the Minister to make regulations for the identification of horses. A standard nationwide identification system is essential. It is not practical that local authorities should decide their own means of identification as both the horses and their owners may move from one local authority area to another. The Minister of State said this provision is intended to facilitate the prescription of a nationwide means of identification so that straying over county borders can be detected. That is a welcome and practical measure.

Over the weekend I spoke to people who have worked with horses for many years. They believe the best means of identification is to mark the horse under its mane. They believe other suggestions, such as tattooing the lower lip, will not be practical and they have expertise in veterinary practice in the equestrian industry. I ask the Minister and his officials to give special consideration to their views.

Deputy Kenneally referred to all the sections of the Bill, particularly section 42 which deals with the attachment of criminal liability to the owner or person in charge of a horse. It is important that the legislation strikes a balance between the right to own a horse for recreational or economic purposes and the need to protect citizens and curb the menace of wandering horses in built-up areas. Deputy Kenneally referred to the well managed partnership project between the local authority and horse owners in the Fettercairn area in Tallaght which has enabled many young people to engage in their favourite recreational activity. It should be possible in a country of this size to set up a number of similar projects which could be incorporated in equestrian courses and involve a teaching a well as a recreational element.

Deputy Kenneally referred to the need for a proper pound for horses. The Minister and his Department should give consideration to the establishment of regional pounds with proper facilities. In recent years many residents' associations have been appalled at the damage done by horses to green areas and recreational facilities built up by them through voluntary effort and the failure to enforce the law to prevent them destroying property and presenting a threat to children and adults.

A person in the horse industry to whom I spoke said he was glad the Department had decided two or three years ago to abolish the grant for keeping more horses on farms as he believed this was the cause of the increase in the number of bad quality animals. I am not familiar enough with the industry to know how valid that criticism is but this person believes that the number of animals increased too rapidly and the quality was not maintained. It is unusual for a person to welcome the abolition of a grant scheme. He also referred to the need for a horse factory in the north east to replace the factory in Dundalk which was closed some years ago. I think there is a facility in Sallins but this person is anxious that the Department and the relevant industrial agencies give consideration to opening a factory in the north east.

I welcome the provision which deals with the identification system for animals. I hope the necessary funding will be provided so that local authorities can implement the provisions in the Bill. There is no point in enacting legislation and putting in place well thought out and structured regulations if the necessary funding is not made available to implement them. I hope the necessary funding will be provided and that the Minister will favourably consider my Committee Stage amendments tabled by Deputy Kenneally. I welcome the Bill.

I wish to share my time with the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Minister for Social Welfare was one of the first people to highlight this problem in his 1990 Private Members' Bill. This gives an indication of how long this has been a problem. I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, for introducing the Bill which I hope is enacted as quickly as possible.

In drafting the Bill the Minister engaged in wide-ranging discussions and set up a consultative committee representative of the Department of Justice, the Department of the Environment, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, South County Dublin Council and Dublin County Council. While the committee is representative of Dublin where there is a problem with wandering horses, I would like to think it will take into account the position in rural areas where there is also a problem with wandering horses. I am sure the Minister of State is aware of the problem in north Kerry. It is proposed local authorities will be the licensing authorities and that tagging arrangements will be put into operation. This will require significant expenditure by local authorities and I am glad the Department, through the Department of Finance, will provide funding for the implementation of this very important legislation.

During the debate on the report of the Task Force on the Travelling Community I referred to the efforts of local authorities to integrate travellers in the community. I am in favour of giving travellers houses in housing estates rather than providing halting sites for them. During such debates there was a reference to the cultural and other rights of travellers. While this is important, it is often forgotten that the settled community also have rights, and the one issue which can lead to a problem between members of the settled community and travellers is the keeping of horses in estates. I am not opposed to the keeping of horses but they should not be allowed to wander around estates where they ruin green areas and frighten children. If the travelling community wants to secure the good will of the settled community it will have to confront this problem. I do not have any objection to members of the travelling community camping on a green area outside a town or village but one often sees them riding horses at great speed through the main street of a town or village, leading to additional hostility on the part of members of the settled community and motorists.

I have strong views on this issue which I have expressed at local level. I genuinely believe that the provisions of this Bill will give local authorities the teeth they have lacked to date in confronting the problem. A previous speaker referred to the necessity to establish regional pounds which is probably also desirable. There appears to be a bush network type of communication among the travelling community when it comes to the seizure of horses in housing estates. They appear to know in advance and continue to move them about.

It is also important that there be some licensing system introduced in respect of wandering horses. If local authorities can monitor horse owners, that will help in eliminating the problem.

I urge the Minister to implement the provisions of this Bill as speedily as possible.

I am particularly glad to have this opportunity of contributing to the debate on this Bill which could be described as a hobbyhorse of mine, a cause I have championed for a long time. In 1990 I introduced a Private Members' Bill on this very subject when, for some strange reason, the then Fianna Fáil administration was less than fulsome in its support of my efforts. Perhaps that administration did not see it as a pressing issue about which people would become excited but, of course, they were wrong. I was interested to hear Deputy Brendan Smith remark that sections of this Bill are similar to those of the Fianna Fáil Bill published a few months ago. The Deputy must have been reading the wrong Bill. The Fianna Fáil Bill was almost a straight lift from the one I introduced in 1990, whereas the current one is significantly different from mine and has been redrafted on something like 20 occasions. An enormous amount of work has gone into its preparation and drafting, particularly in terms of consultation by the Minister and his staff, to ensure it is adequate to tackle the task.

I recall how recently representatives of a number of political parties — Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats to be precise — suffered a form of shell-shock at the extent of the problem of wandering horses in a certain Dublin constituency. They were stunned at the extent of anger and frustration it generated. I am prompted to wonder where these people have been all these years. Have they been so out of touch with the realities of life for so many urban communities. This should not have come as a surprise to these same representatives, who appeared to be equally shell-shocked at the extent of poverty, alienation and disenchantment being experienced by these communities, not to mention the grinding oppression of unemployment and crime.

For years there has been a failure to acknowledge that wandering horses posed any problem at all. I well remember endeavouring a pin down some responsibility for it. I discovered that the Department of the Environment was not responsible, neither were local authorities, the Department of Agriculture or Board na gCapall. Nobody was responsible. This led to my decision to introduce a Bill to focus responsibility where it ought to lie, with local authorities. This is being provided for in this Bill.

The fact that this is an urban problem seemed to have escaped the notice of our legislators who did not appear able to comprehend the scale of the problem. In many ways, it is a damning indictment of our system that it has taken so long to introduce this Bill. The harsh reality is that it has taken five years and a number of changes of Government to bring this to a conclusion.

The fact that this Bill is based on my 1990 Bill and the fact that Democratic Left had its inclusion agreed in the programme for Government in December 1994 is a matter of some pride and satisfaction to me.

The problem of wandering horses has been a terrible one for urban communities as far apart as Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Limerick. Serious injuries have been suffered by children, public and private property — parks, gardens and cars—have been damaged and the general quality of life for people in these areas has suffered. Henceforth local authorities will have to license persons annually to keep horses in urban areas. These horses will have to be identified, registered and kept under control. Liability for damages and injuries will also fall on the owner.

For the first time local authorities will have power to answer the demands of local communities and act to tackle this problem. Children will be safe playing outside their homes; motorists will be free to drive and people with cars parked outside their homes will no longer be afraid of their being damaged by galloping horses. Perhaps most importantly, the cruelty caused to many of these horses will end. There have been horrific examples of cruelty to and neglect of these animals over the years. It is hoped that this Bill will not only provide the necessary powers to tackle this problem at source but will also lead to greater public awareness of the need to care for these animals.

Many of these horses have been under the control of young people who do not have the knowledge, experience, facilities or resources to look after them. Some of these animals have been kept in gardens, in tiny sheds, even in houses. It could be claimed that they were the lucky ones since many more were left to roam freely, uncared for, without adequate food and water. Small wonder, then, that they eventually became a problem nobody was willing to address. Let us hope this Bill spells the beginning of the end of such needless cruelty.

In this regard I pay tribute to the work of voluntary organisations, the most exemplary of which is the DSPCA which has provided practical help and assistance over many decades. Despite its limited resources and staffing the society moved to cope with individual cases of cruelty and neglect and tried, often in vain, to education the public on this growing problem. I should also give that society credit for its work in helping to draft the Bill I introduced in 1990.

I want to refer to a worrying trend which has accompanied the pioneering work of organisations like the DSPCA which, ironically, has also accompanied the birth and progress of this Bill. That is the threats to and intimidation of volunteers and officials as they go about their work of preventing or dealing with cruelty to horses. These serious threats gathered pace when this Bill was first mooted and there have been incidents of various threats of violence or intimidation against individual members of the DSPCA.

The word should go out from this House that such actions will not be tolerated. If members of voluntary organisations cannot conduct their activities free from the threats and actions of thugs, this State has some serious questions to ask itself. The problem is rendered even more serious by the fact that organisations like the DSPCA have been forced to step into the gap, the State having failed to take action when and where necessary in relation to wandering horses. I commend the DSPCA and its staff on their continuing dedication and bravery in continuing to do what the State has failed to do to date.

We must recognise the attraction horses hold for young people and endeavour to channel this in a positive and constructive way. We must first enact this Bill to tackle the problem and thereafter work to ensure that children from these urban areas have access to horses in controlled conditions, thus ensuring no ill-treatment of animals and no danger or inconvenience to the general public.

This is a serious Bill, a real attempt to deal with a pressing problem for far too many communities. It is in line with this Government's commitment to address people's real needs. It strikes the right balance in drawing together the various elements involved in tackling this problem and, while it had a long gestation period, it was worth awaiting.

With the permission of the House, I propose to share my time with Deputy O'Leary.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

I am glad to have an opportunity of contributing to the debate on this Bill. I accept that its introduction honours a commitment in A Government of Renewal. I also acknowledge the involvement of the Minister for Social Welfare in this issue over many years. He tabled a Bill some years ago which I understand was published but never introduced. I was not a Member at that time. I do not understand his criticism of the then Fianna Fáil administration. As happens weekly, Opposition Members ask if a matter of grave importance can be taken in Government time, but it always kicks to touch and states that the Opposition can raise it in Private Members' time. I accept this is a major problem in parts of Dublin, particularly in the constituency shared by the Minister and me, and it is disgraceful that it has been with us for many years.

Will the Deputy accept some information?

I am always willing to learn.

Before the 1990 Bill was published I introduced the same Bill in 1988 and it was voted down by Fianna Fáil.

We are not always right.

Fianna Fáil is a large democratic party and its members must fight their corner. It is a disgrace that it has taken so long to address this issue which is a problem in many parts of Dublin, particularly in suburban areas where the city meets the county. Failure to address the problem of wandering horses has given rise to a history of accidents and motorist fatalities. I listened to party colleagues from Dublin North East and Finglas discuss this problem for many years and I recall at one stage a letter being received from the then Minister for Justice advising that the solution to all our problems was at hand — a single horse box had been delivered to Finglas Garda station.

It must have been the former Minister, Deputy Burke.

The Minister might well be correct. That solution was a joke. This serious problem has not been tackled. The problem comes in waves, it is very bad at times and then drifts into the background. Horses grazing on land on the north side of Dublin which was earmarked for the northern cross route and the Finglas bypass were, to a large extent out of public sight, but as the construction work was completed they were chased off and could only graze on green patches along roads, avenues and groves. It is disgraceful that was allowed to happen. Wandering horses cause accidents and it is extraordinary that action to address this problem has only been taken in the past two years following campaigns by people more concerned with animal welfare. This is a major problem and the efforts of the two groups involved has resulted in something being done about it.

Keeping horses is big business. It is not only a case of every 14 year old having a pony; some families breed horses, keep a few dozen or so and make a good deal of money out of the sale of them. It is a lucrative business. Those families must be made aware of the law.

It is unacceptable that some families have had to put up with the nuisance of horses wandering the roads, wrecking their front gardens and grazing on any available greenery, including that in school yards. They also have had to deal with threats and intimidation from the owners of horses. I spoke to some school principals about this problem. It is well known that some families put their horses into school yards at 4.30 p.m. and take them out again at 8.40 a.m. the following morning, leaving the teachers to clean up the mess before the children arrive for their day of learning.

The problem is worse at certain times of the year. As a result of the lack of growth this spring horses wandered nearer to built-up areas in my constituency, beyond Finglas and Ballymun. I heard stories that in March or April when there was a harsh east wind and no grass growth the wandering horses interfered with shopping bags carried by women on their way home from shopping centres. They are intelligent animals and have learned to live in an urban setting. They know that the goodies in shopping bags are the next best thing when there is very little grass.

The problem has been raised at local level over many years. As a political activist in the past, I raised it with my public representatives and I received various answers such as that the Departments of the Environment and Justice did not want to know about it. Local authorities have a certain role to play in addressing the problem, but they do not have the necessary manpower. Occasionally, they organise a roundup of wandering horses at 5 a.m., but the workers involved have to travel in an unmarked lorry because, if recognised, they would be attacked by the families who own them. They must be paid overtime for this work. It has always been a wild west type of business and passing legislation will not solve it.

I congratulate the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, irrespective of whether it has willingly taken on this mantle or it has been forced on it, for dealing with the problem. It reminds me of another issue the Department addressed — it had been a problem for many years — that of hare coursing. For many years nobody knew who should be dealing with that problem. In recent years the Department tackled two problems that concerned many city people.

Legislation usually regulates an activity, lays down controls and measures governing it and provides the necessary policing. I welcome the legislation, but will it be enforced? In many respects it is a million miles away from addressing the problem. I am concerned that the Department will consider it has successfully completed its work, as set out in the programme for Government, by introducing legislation on what for many years has been a burning issue and will leave matters like that. While I have not considered the details of the Bill — we will deal with that on Committee Stage — it appears to be in order. Will resources be made available to tackle the problem? Does the political will exist to deal with it? To some extent we have had the necessary legislation to deal with this problem, but the local authorities and the Garda had little will to solve it. I am concerned that neither group has the interest or the time to tackle the problem. They have done an occasional early morning round up of a couple dozen horses and put them into the pound in Baltinglass. However, the owners could go to the local solicitor, sign an affidavit, pay the £35 and get the horses out in no time. This type of early morning run frightened the owners, and horses were hidden in school yards for a couple of weeks, but when the heat was off they went back to letting their horses wander the streets. This legislation is meaningless if the Minister cannot spell out what resources will be provided to the Garda Síochána and the local authority to solve the problem.

Some months ago when we had our first briefing on this legislation, we talked about horses in urban areas. I note the word "urban" has been dropped. I note also that we seem to be speaking about stray horses. Many of the horses in my area are not stray horses. The owners tie the horses to a tree planted by the corporation the previous winter — the fact that the horse might pull the tree down within a few hours does not seem to matter. I hope this legislation will apply to all horses. A horse that is tied to a tree planted by the local authority should be treated as a stray and not excluded from the legislation, because that is how some owners get around the legislation — they tie the horse to a stake in the ground, allowing the horse to eat within a radius of five yards or so, move him the next day and tie him to a tree. The law will have to cover all horses, and a horse should not be excluded because he is not running loose. The legislation must be strengthened by the provision of resources. Otherwise it will be a joke. It will meet a commitment but no more.

It is ludicrous that up to now a licence was needed for a dog but not for a horse. That was scandalous, and I am delighted the matter is being dealt with. The ownership of horses does give meaning to the lives of some young people. It is extraordinary that some of them have taken such an interest in horses and care so impressively for them. Others, however, have not got a clue. They may not set out to be cruel and although their treatment of horses is shameful, one has to forgive them because they know no better. They need education and training.

In my area a horse owners' club has confiscated a building which is the property of the Department of Finance and is now making demands on the local authority to provide water and bins to take away horse manure. Although the legislation is good, I have some concern about it because my area borders that of another local authority, Fingal County Council. Such problems tend to be concentrated on the fringes where two areas join, and there is no point in Dublin Corporation declaring its area a controlled area if the local authority for the adjoining area does not bother because the people in its area live some distance from the boundary. Co-ordination between the local authorities is necessary. We must also deal with some of the horse owners' groups, many of whom seem to think they have a divine right to confiscate any building and demand huge tracts of land, services etc. Some of them may do good if their membership includes people who can give supervision, advice, training and education to young people who have an interest in horses but letting them run wild is not the answer. I hope these matters will be dealt with and that on Committee Stage the Minister will be in position to outline what resources will be provided. If he cannot do that the legislation will merely have fulfiled an undertaking in the Programme for Government and no more. Throwing the problem back to the local authority looks fine in legislation, but it is not practical. It has failed before and will fail again unless the resources are provided. Up to now the Garda Síochána and the local authorities have regarded this issue as being way down their list of priorities. I hope this legislation will change the emphasis and that this problem, which has been a scourge in many suburbs of Dublin, will be dealt with in a meaningful way. I thank the Minister and his officials for bringing in this legislation. It is a big step forward but we need the resources to see that it is properly enforced.

I welcome this Bill which was part of a commitment in the Programme for Government. I congratulate the Minister on the manner in which he delivered on this commitment by initally inviting Members who had a particular interest in the legislation to look at the proposals and giving people who experienced the problem in their own areas the opportunity to have an input at that stage. That is a useful way of dealing with legislation.

The problem is largely urban and has given rise to much difficulty, annoyance, inconvenience and, indeed, injury to people in urban areas over the past number of years.

Debate adjourned.
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