Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Jun 1996

Vol. 467 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 7 — Family Law (Divorce) Bill, 1996, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

I wish to make the following announcement. The situation concerning the murder, on the order of people involved in organised crime, of a journalist is a grave threat to our democracy and to the standard of life which this State has upheld for more than 75 years. It raises the spectre of organised crime dominating our society in the appalling way that it had come to dominate some other societies in Europe until action was taken.

In the aftermath of yesterday's horrific murder I want to make the following points. The full resources of the State are being applied to finding and bringing to justice those who committed this murder and those who inspired or directed it. Nobody is untouchable and the Government is absolutely determined that whoever ordered this murder will sooner or later — and I hope sooner — face charges in our courts. Let me repeat, nobody is untouchable, nobody who orders a crime in a democratic society can be allowed to be untouchable and nobody will be allowed to be untouchable.

The Government is intensifying its efforts to change administrative and legal procedures in our State so that we can deal more effectively than we have been able to deal to date with organised crime. Organised crime is a different phenomenon qualitatively from the type of crime we have had to deal with in the past. It needs a qualitative change in the way we do our business. I do not pretend that the Government or any party or group in this House has, in the immediate aftermath of this truly appalling event, the knowledge of all the appropriate answers in terms of the administrative changes that can work and the legal changes that are necessary. I am determined that together all of us in this House will find those answers. To ensure the maximum national focus on finding those answers in a deliberate, careful but also urgent way, I wish to announce that it is the Government's proposal that the Dáil shall be recalled for a full day's sitting on Thursday, 25 July to debate the issue of organised crime. The Government will have its proposals to make on that matter on that occasion and we will be seeking proposals from all interests in society, including all parties in this House. There is a series of proposals currently in preparation which I expect will be ready for that debate. I have no sense that the proposals we will bring forward will represent the final or last word on the matters society needs to bring to bear on this issue. It is important, therefore, that there should be a full debate when all parties and Members who wish to do so will have an opportunity to put forward their proposals, all of which will be considered carefully and seriously in addition to the proposals that will be brought forward by the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

The proposal is to take No. 7, Family Law (Divorce) Bill, 1996, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. There is nothing else to put to the House.

Mr. Shatter

Before that proposal is agreed I wish to raise an issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, Deputy, please.

Mr. Shatter

I appreciate that Deputy Ahern wishes to raise an issue and that he should obviously speak before me——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not usurp the role of the Chair. He should resume his seat.

Mr. B. Ahern

I was going to raise the matter to which the Taoiseach referred and was not aware he intended to make a statement.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate the urgency of the matter. The decision was taken comparatively recently and there was no time to communicate with anybody. I believed the Deputy would be raising the matter and wanted to be able to respond to him.

Mr. B. Ahern

I am satisfied with that and I am glad the Taoiseach raised the matter. When I spoke to him yesterday evening after a meeting of the Fianna Fáil Front Bench I stated that if there were any measures he felt were desirable or necessary — there are many such measures — we would co-operate fully. I have no argument, therefore, with anything he said. We will co-operate in the debate.

This was one of the worst murders ever committed in the history of the State, certainly in my lifetime. It involved the taking out by criminal elements of a leading journalist who was trying to practise the right of freedom of speech. It was a most appalling act. I extend my sympathy to my good friends, the Guerin family, and all journalists, not only in Independent Newspapers but throughout the country who are trying to do a similar job and report on day to day life.

As the Taoiseach will recall, a number of Ministers spoke to me on 29 May when I referred in the House, following another murder, to the appalling crimes committed in recent years. I referred in particular to the contract killings in this city and other parts of the country of drug barons and those involved in organised crime of which there have been too many. Veronica Guerin set about trying to give the people an insight into who was behind them.

I do not believe we need one month to consider what we should do about this. Not to make too strong a political point, the anti-crime record is a shambles. I have been highlighting this issue for a long time and others have been doing likewise. People were threatened that if they refused to get out of their houses they would be burned out. Others were told that if they did not get out of the country members of their families would be affected. Those who did not play ball with these barons and criminals were taken out. It took a journalist, a person we all knew, to shock us and make us see what we were up against.

There was an easy feeling throughout the country that the people who were taken out while sitting on bar stools might have been involved in crime and perhaps deserved it, but I have never held that view. I raised the issue following each of the last four murders. It continues unabated. There has been a genuine sense of fear for a very long time, greater or lesser depending on one's address.

I ask the Taoiseach to consult over the weekend — I accept he cannot do so today — the Attorney General's Office, the Chief State Solicitor's Office and the Department of Justice which I am sure has many Bills at various stages of preparation and consideration. We need to act quickly. We owe Veronica Guerin, her family and colleagues no less. We should stop getting caught up in the niceties of the law.

For a number of years we have been asking whether we are prepared to continue to tolerate the unhindered existence in society of people who have accumulated vast and unexplained wealth through criminal activity and have called on the Revenue Commissioners to stop them. Unfortunately, like many others in the House, I have had to deal with these people in my political life. I admire those who have spoken against them but the criminals are clearly winning the battle.

In co-operating I ask the Taoiseach to consider bringing legislation forward on this one issue. It will not solve everything but it will show to ordinary people who watch those with no jobs buy houses on Howth Head worth £350,000 that we are serious. Others have bought derelict sites on which to build apartments. We know most of them and some of the people associated or connected with them. The Garda Síochána tells the Minister for Justice every day about their activities. I am sure she knows their faces from the photographs taken and videos made over several years recording their activities.

Will the Taoiseach consider bringing legislation forward? The Fianna Fáil Party has been working long and hard on the Organised Crime (Restraint and Disposal of Illicit Assets) Bill, 1996, which we tried to complete overnight and will complete as soon as our legal people report back to our spokesperson, Deputy John O'Donoghue, later today. I ask the Taoiseach to take either that Bill or his own Bill next week. In memory of Veronica Guerin we should not wait until the debate on 25 July. We should pass a meaningful and tough Bill next week to freeze the assets of drug barons.

The 1994 Act deals with the confiscation of assets in transit. I supported that legislation at the time because I believed it would be of some use but it is not when it comes to houses, property and sites. We need a strong Bill. I ask the Taoiseach, therefore, to support our Bill.

Will the Taoiseach also consider setting up, with the support of the Opposition, a special Garda task force to deal with organised crime in this city? Many groups were broken up in the past. The ordinary garda cannot deal with this type of crime, the threats and intimidation. I respectfully suggest that we do not need one month in which to do this.

This is not the first time I raised this issue. I tried to raise it before. I have spoken to a number of Ministers whom I appreciate care as I do, because they see what is happening. We either start today in the memory of Veronica Guerin to win it back for the ordinary people or we are a meaningless institution. We must stand up and do something despite the fears that everybody has. If we do not, we are wasting our time. I ask Taoiseach to co-operate with us in this.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Ahern for what he said. The matters he raised the disposal of assets and the ability of people to accumulate essentially untouchable assets from crime, are very serious. I had a discussion with the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners last night about this matter. Two weeks ago the Government, independent of this event, commissioned a joint report from a task force to be available on 18 July on the question of the extra powers needed to pursue assets being accumulated by people involved in organised crime.

It is important that any legislation we enact in regard to this matter works. Legislation must work in the courts subsequently. The Government is determined to have legislation on that matter that will work. It is on precisely the issue raised by Deputy Ahern that the Government commissioned the report to be ready on 18 July. This was decided before yesterday's events. We expect to be able to report to the Dáil on 25 July. If legislation is necessary and can be prepared in the time available it will be taken on 25 July. This will not be a mere debate. Concrete proposals will be available from Government on that day to be considered by the House.

The special task force will not just involve the Garda but will involve all the organs of State which have information about the accumulation by individuals of money which might be derived from crime. A task force has already been established for that purpose and will present its first report to the Government on 18 July which report will be brought before this House on 25 July.

Miss Harney

On behalf of the Progressive Democrats I confirm that any measures the Government brings forward to deal with the escalating crime in our society will be supported. I hope from now on we will not be accused of hyping the crime issue, as has happened so often in recent times. The Taoiseach might forgive me if I am somewhat cynical this morning. We have had debates, task forces and reports in this area and, as in many other areas, we are suffering from paralysis from analysis.

I will tell the Taoiseach what needs to be done. Drug trafficking legislation is to go to Report Stage in this House next week. Earlier this week my colleague, Deputy O'Donnell, moved an amendment to that Bill to restrict the right of silence. The right to silence shields the godfathers of crime. The House could change that law next week, just as it could have changed it two days ago. This is the third time in the life of this Dáil that this matter has come before the House.

The bail laws could be changed. The Taoiseach told me at the beginning of February that the Government would finalise its view on this issue in six weeks. That six weeks was over on 11 March, yet almost four months later we still have no Government proposals. We have legislation before the House dealing with defamation. Veronica Guerin was on her way to meet defamation lawyers yesterday. Defamation laws restrict a free press in our society and they too shield the godfathers of crime. These are among the things we can do.

Ordinary people find it impossible to understand when they see the godfathers of crime being described as country squires in the newspapers this morning. We all know who they are, with their holiday homes, their fast cars and their yachts. We have all had enough of this and it is time they were put down. I appeal to the media in this respect. Convicted criminals should not be made to look like victims and should not be portrayed to the public in the way a convicted person was portrayed this morning as some kind of victim and hero. We have to be consistent and we have all a part to play. The media as well as the Government and the Opposition have a part to play. Tough measures are required during the current crisis and we require the support of the media to ensure that our democracy is protected because that is as much in their interests as it is in ours.

I hope proposals are brought forward on 25 July but we could also bring some forward next week on the Report Stage of the drug trafficking legislation. That Bill could be greatly improved, particularly in regard to the right to silence. If we saw a changed attitude from the Government next week we might begin to see that the life taken so needlessly yesterday may not have been in vain. Whether criminals are of the provo variety or of the drug baron variety, we have to be consistent, they must all be put down.

The Taoiseach

I fully understand Deputy Harney's feelings on this matter and her frustration. We need tough legislation, but that legislation must work. There is no point passing legislation which sounds tough but which does not work in the courts because sufficient time has not been taken to draft it. I appreciate the Deputy's proposals and the thought behind them and I assure her that we will seek to put in place proposals that work. We will take only as much time as is necessary in the matter to ensure that whatever proposals we bring forward are effective. It is no disrespect to any Member of this House to say that the Government needs some time to consider the matter so as to ensure that any measures taken work.

I appreciate what the Deputy said about the fact that there has been politically inspired crime in this country over the past 27 years. To some extent those involved in organised crime have taken their example from politically motivated crime. The methodology of the crime carried out on Veronica Guerin was developed by politically inspired organisations. The method of motor bike killing was one used frequently by subversive organistions in Northern Ireland.

It is very important that we remove any glorification of violence in our society whether for political or other reasons. It is not possible to say that certain types of violent activity are in one category of badness if they are politically motivated and in different and worse category of badness if they are motivated by simple considerations of greed. They are equally bad regardless of their motivation. The guns used in such crimes, whether they are controlled by politically inspired organisations or by organisations inspired solely by greed, need to be taken out of society. That is a central political issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

I had no intimation whatsoever that this matter was being raised in this fashion this morning. We have had an announcement from the Taoiseach and in such circumstances such an announcement ought not to give rise to debate. It has given rise to debate, however, and the Chair hesitated to intervene in any way in respect of the important issues involved. However, we must deal with this matter in a structured fashion. I want an indication from the leaders of the various parties in the House, the Whips and the Taoiseach, that this matter will be discussed in a formal way at a fixed time which may well involve legislation. I cannot permit a debate to ensue this morning in the unstructured way. I ask Deputy Ahern not to persist in the matter now. If we are to have this debate to which the Taoiseach has referred, let it be done in the normal way through the Taoiseach's office and the Whips.

Mr. B. Ahern

I will comply. I will confine my remarks to legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am entitled to notice in respect of such matters.

The Taoiseach

I have already said to Deputy Ahern that I regret time did not allow me to communicate with him about the matter. when I said so I should have extended a similar regret in your regard. I appreciate, Sir, that this puts you in a difficult situation and I accept full responsibility for what has transpired here this morning. The contributions from the other side of the House on this matter at this time are useful not only for their content but for the sense of urgency in the House which they convey to the public. While I appreciate this places you in a difficult position, the debate so far has been useful.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am glad to hear that.

Mr. B. Ahern

I will endeavour to bring the debate back into order. The Taoiseach has proposed a debate for 25 July that might include very little legislation. That would mean any legislation we would discuss at that stage could not be enacted until October at the earliest and that is too far away. Next week we will debate the Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Bill and some regulations dealing with international co-operation unrelated to the domestic situation. In the course of that debate will the Taoiseach consider examining the legislation I will present to him later today, which was intended for the next session? This legislation was not prepared overnight, but over a long period and is now complete. Will the Taoiseach look at it at the weekend and perhaps we could suspend some of the issues next week, until 25 July, if necessary, to deal with all Stages of that legislation? The goodwill of the Opposition would enable that otherwise we cannot pass a Bill until the autumn. The signal from this House that we will have a talking shop in a month's time is the wrong one. We have to show we have a coherent anti-crime strategy and we in Opposition are endeavouring to assist the Government to do that. To wait for a month is not the answer. I beg the Taoiseach to listen, to examine our legislation and to enact it next week with whatever amendments the State Solicitor, the Attorney General, the Minister for Justice or other advisers at the Taoiseach's disposal may suggest. Our Bill was drafted by voluntary workers but it is a well thought out one.

The Taoiseach

I will consider that very carefully. The only reservation I have is that we want legislation that is not only well intended but also that actually works. Some time may be required to ensure that is the case and that it will work practically within the terms of our Constitution. That is the only reservation I would enter as to the time availability, but I fully take on board all the other points the Deputy has made.

Ms O'Donnell

Item No. 28 on the Order Paper——

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, I beg your pardon, Deputy. I wish to make a statement. There will not be further debate, but I wish to be advised and guided as to the modus operandi how this matter should be proceeded with.

The Taoiseach

I have announced the Government's intention which will take the form of a motion on the Adjournment of the Dáil for a debate on 25 July. I will announce the intention in the appropriate form for a recall of the Dáil on that day for that purpose. Obviously next week's business will now be considered by the Whips and we will look at the proposals made by the Opposition in the context of the business being considered for next week. Obviously at this juncture we have an Order of Business before us which concerns item No. 7. It is necessary to take note that what is being proposed is the way in which we intend to proceed. I was simply announcing this morning an intention to recall the Dáil. That might, in the normal course of events, have been announced on Friday of next week. In view of the concerns expressed in this House I felt it was necessary to make this announcement earlier.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have intimated to the House that I am not prepared to permit of any further debate on this matter now. My concern is with the procedure as indicated by the Taoiseach and that the usual procedures should apply in respect of the leaders of the parties in the House and the Whips who will decide the issue.

Ms O'Donnell

Item No. 28 on the Order Paper is before the House and is a Bill relevant to the difficulties being discussed here. Given that reasonable amendments tabled to this Bill were voted down by the Government, will the Taoiseach given an undertaking that they will be reconsidered by the Government before Report Stage on Wednesday next? The Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Bill is directly relevant to the issue under discussion. Will the Minister for Justice and the Taoiseach consider acceptance of those amendments — relating to the right to silence and the refusal of temporary release to convicted drug traffickers — which were rejected out of hand earlier this week and last week by the Government?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Harney has already raised that point. I have already indicated my only concern in this area is to ensure that the legislation we enact is not only right but will work within the Constitution which confers rights on those who are accused and on people generally. We have to ensure we do not pass legislation that simply does not work because of conflict in that area unless we have indentified and removed the conflict. Subject only to those necessary considerations, the amendments the Deputy has put forward will be considered over the weekend to see what can be done in that regard subject to the constraints. In any event, any matter not dealt with in the next week can be brought forward for discussion in the special debate on this issue when that occurs at the end of the month.

An Ceann Comhairle

We will now discuss other matters appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. B. Ahern

We will present our Bill later today and I ask the Taoiseach to examine it. The Taoiseach will recall that about ten years ago in relation to what was suspected as IRA money, a Bill was introduced overnight dealing with the confiscation of assets in a certain bank account. The legislation we have drafted or legislation which the Department of Justice would draft could be debated. Next week, during the additional time, as the hours will be long in any event. Members will stay late, as they have been staying, to put that Bill through — either the Fianna Fáil Bill or a Government Bill. It is totally unnecessary to wait until the end of July.

An Ceann Comhairle

That has been emphasised already.

The Taoiseach

I was in Government at the time that legislation was introduced. While it was introduced overnight I assure the House it was not prepared overnight. That legislation was considered by the Government over a considerable period and was, with the co-operation of the then Opposition, introduced and put through overnight. The drafting was careful and had taken considerable time and as a result of its being adequately prepared it worked. While I have no wish to reflect on any proposals from the Opposition that I have not yet seen — obviously I would prefer to see them and have them examined before entering into any commitments in the matter as in this we have a common objective — we want legislation that not only is right but is sufficiently carefully drafted so that it works and has the effect of putting the criminals behind bars and their assets out of their control.

Mr. O'Donoghue

The Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Bill, deals specifically with drug traffickers. Next week the House will have the opportunity to discuss a motion pursuant to section 46 (6) of the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, whereby regulations on international co-operation regarding confiscation of assets will be discussed. In that context will the Taoiseach consider taking in tandem with that, the Bill referred to by the leader of Fianna Fáil which would provide for the freezing of assets in the course of a criminal investigation where they are the suspected proceeds of organised crime, because that is what is required?

The Taoiseach

We already have powers in place to deal with the confiscation of assets accumulated from drug dealings and I understand successful court proceedings have taken place under this legislation in the past two or three days. I discussed this matter with the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners last night who informed me that a successful court action had taken place in the past 24 to 48 hours and that the existing powers were seen to work more effectively than was previously thought possible. We propose to introduce legislation next week that will enable transboundary co-operation on this matter. A particularly ominous aspect of yesterday's crime is the suggestion that the assassins came from another jurisdiction, which emphasises the need to be able to co-operate on an international basis in the battle against crime. Unfortunately, the criminals are well able to co-operate on an international basis.

As I informed Deputy Ahern, we will examine the suggestions made by the Deputy's party when we receive them and I appreciate that there is no delay on his part in making them available to us. At this stage I cannot give an undertaking as to when they might be taken, but I assure the House that a major debate on this matter will take place on 25 July. I invite those inside and outside the House to focus their attention on the proposals that can best be put into effect in the meantime so that we can work together to defend our democracy against the threat of organised crime. A similar threat exists in all major democracies in Europe, but unfortunately the assassination of a journalist yesterday makes this country almost unique in a terrible way.

Mr. Sargent

I appeal to the Taoiseach to take this legislation sooner. In the light of public outrage a time lapse of a month is unacceptable. I understand that the legislation must work and that it is important not to rush it, but it is also important not to allow two laws develop here. A month is a long time to wait in the circumstances. I appeal to the Taoiseach to deal with the legislation sooner. If this democracy worked properly, Veronica Guerin would be alive and local authorities would be holding elections today, five years after the last elections were held. Legislation on crime must be dealt with much sooner than 25 July. I appeal to the Taoiseach to consider taking it at an earlier date.

Mr. M. McDowell

The suggestion was implicit in the Taoiseach's remarks to Deputies Harney and O'Donnell that some of the proposals we have made three times during the lifetime of this Dáil have not been thought out or tried. They were based on a 1973 report of the Criminal Law Review Committee in Britain and have been practised and operated in Northern Ireland with effect. They are workable, tried and well thought out proposals and it is about time the Government applied its mind to deciding whether to operate them here. The right to silence is a shield for those who ignore and tramp down our law and that matter must be addressed now.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is correct in saying that there are greater restrictions on the right to silence in Northern Ireland than here. Within this island there is a model of a more restricted right to silence which can be examined. In the time available to me I was unable to examine the amendments to which the Deputy referred, but I have assured his party leader and spokesperson on justice that we will carefully consider the proposals his party have put forward. Nothing I have said should be construed as a reflection on the professionalism of the Deputy or any member of his party who prepared those amendments.

Mr. M. McDowell

I accept that.

The Taoiseach

I have do doubt they were prepared with due care. Obviously the Government has responsibilities in the matter but I do not want the Deputy to feel I was reflecting on the competence with which those amendments were prepared.

Mr. R. Burke

This debate reflects the revulsion felt throughout the country at the cold blooded murder of Veronica Guerin yesterday. I would be reluctant to use the word "assassins" because it glorifies them. They are cold blooded murderers. I appeal to the Taoiseach to accept the proposals put forward by our party leader and spokesperson.

Ordinary people are afraid in their homes. It is ironic that on Tuesday night four thugs broke into the home of David Lanigan in Cloghran, the townland where Veronica Guerin lived, beat him up and stole £300 and a mobile telephone. People want to feel safe and secure in their homes. In the package the Government proposes to bring forward, will it consider the safety of ordinary citizens in their homes as well as organised crime and the attack on our democracy which was reflected in the murder of Veronica Guerin? This is a broad issue. It is ironic that a man should have been attacked in his home in the townland where Veronica Guerin lived on the night before she was murdered.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Burke is correct. Attacks on people in their homes, which, in the normal course of events might not be seen as part of organised crime, directly flow from the activities of organised crime. In many cases attacks on people in their homes are carried out to feed a drug habit which, in turn, was created through the activities of organised crime. There is a direct continuous connection between what appears as minor and major crime. They are part of the one phenomenon with which we must deal.

Mr. Cowen

I thank you, Sir, for your forbearance in dealing with this matter this morning. Outrageous crimes have taken place in the past couple of weeks. I recognise the Taoiseach's concern to ensure the law enacted works. To guarantee that, will he ensure that a reference confirming its constitutional validity is put to the Supreme Court immediately following its enactment? Individuals' rights will be infringed as a result of the enactment of tougher legislation in the interests of society. Will the Taoiseach ensure the legislation is not open to constitutional challenge so that those who have the powers to implement the law can do so with confidence.

The Taoiseach

That is a matter for the President, not for the Government alone. Where such considerations apply, the President takes account of opinions expressed in the House. I will note the Deputy's suggestion, which has considerable wisdom.

Mr. O'Dea

I, to, thank you, Sir, for your forbearance on this matter. Will the Taoiseach reconsider his timescale on this issue? He announced that he proposes to recall the Dáil on 25 July. The Government proposals should be prepared and put before the House tomorrow week and the Dáil should be recalled to put through the legislation which emanates from that debate. The people have had enough prevarication,delay, debates, reports, committees and discussions. They want action. I appeal to the Taoiseach to consider this request in the spirit in which it is made. We will be amenable to a recall of the Dáil during the summer recess to put through any necessary legislative proposals which emanate from a debate on Friday week.

The Taoiseach

As I explained to the House, approximately two weeks ago the Cabinet asked all the relevant organs of the State which have information about those involved in organised crime and drug trafficking to meet, with a deadline of 18 July, to prepare proposals for changes in legislation and improvements in administrative procedures. Various organisations of the State are working to that deadline at present. It is reasonable to see if it can be shortened and I will do so. It is important that a deadline has been set for a number of organisations which need to co-operate, including the Garda Síochána, the Department of Justice, the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Welfare, to name but a few. Nothing I have said excludes acceptance of the Deputy's proposal. If his proposal can be accepted, it will be. At this point I am not able to do so because I am not certain if the legislation or the proposals will be in a form which we are sure will work but if they are, we will proceed as the Deputy suggested.