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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Oct 1996

Vol. 469 No. 4

Questions—Ceisteanna. Oral Answers. - Equal Status Legislation.

Michael Woods

Question:

2 Dr. Woods asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform when he intends to publish the proposed Equal Status Bill; whether he has completed his consultations with interested parties and bodies in this regard; if so, the outcome of these consultations; and if he will consider removing without further delay the age discrimination which currently exists for entry in the public service. [17303/96]

Helen Keogh

Question:

3 Ms Keogh asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the further progress, if any, which has been made in drafting the Equal Status Bill; whether the Bill will be published in this session; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17292/96]

Brendan Kenneally

Question:

19 Mr. Kenneally asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform if he will review his proposals in relation to the withdrawal of the right to refuse to serve a customer to be included in the forthcoming equal status legislation in view of the recent High Court decision whereby a publican was ordered to pay £10,000 compensation to a customer injured in a brawl; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17464/96]

Brendan Smith

Question:

31 Mr. B. Smith asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the current position regarding the equal status legislation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17616/96]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 2, 3, 19 and 31 together.

The Equal Status Bill is at an advanced stage of drafting and I expect it to be published in the current Dáil session. I have had consultations with a wide range of interested parties and bodies about the proposed legislation and I am available for further consultations as necessary. The views and suggestions put forward by various bodies during the consultations have been noted and will be taken fully into account in the finalisation of the Bill.

The Employment Equality Bill, 1996, which was published on 3 July 1996 prohibits discrimination in employment in both public and private sectors on a wide range of grounds. The Bill prohibits discrimination on age grounds, subject to certain conditions, in relation to all aspects of employment including discrimination in recruitment.

I am not aware of any court decision which would warrant a review of the proposed equal status legislation.

In his consultations has the Minister reached a point where he has resolved the difficulties that arose in the management of premises? We are very anxious to move this legislation forward and the longer it is delayed the more controversy develops. The Minister has received proposals from, for instance, the Licensed Vintners' Association. Has he made progress in resolving the thorny issue where a publican needs to maintain the right to refuse entry to the premises? Will the Minister give an up-date on that position?

Legislation is in course of preparation in my Department and Deputies will have to await its finalisation. I listened sympathetically to the representations put to me. Consultations are ongoing with interested people, groupings and associations and all proposals put to me receive careful examination and consideration. I will be happy to discuss the details of the Bill with Deputies when I am in a position to publish it, which I hope will be soon.

Does the Minister believe it will be possible to reconcile the disparate interests in this case? The principal protagonists are the vintners and representatives of the travelling community. A formula has been put to the Minister. Has he viewed this sympathetically and does he believe that he will be able to reconcile these interests? I am sorry to say that there has been polarisation on that topic. I would like to hear the Minister's views.

The Deputy asked whether it will be possible to reconcile what she describes as conflicting views on this complex issue. It is always possible to reconcile everything except the irreconcilable. I am taking all views into consideration in finalising the legislation. It is regrettable that an extensive debate seems to be taking place outside the House on this subject as though the proposed Equal Status Bill will refer to nothing else but pubs and travellers. It will deal with the supply of goods and services to a large range of categories of people who are seen to be disadvantaged in other areas. For example, the supply of an insurance policy, mortgage or bank loan to a woman as well as people with disabilities will be covered as will age discrimination. It is regrettable that it is coming down to a net point of pubs and travellers, an important issue, but far from being the only one involved.

There are a number of aspects to this matter. I thank the Minister for giving us an assurance that he will publish the Bill this session.

That is my hope and expectation.

Many people will be glad to hear that. In the meantime, he might consider bringing together people who have opposing views. It might be useful to bring together the travelling community, licensed vintners, restaurateurs and other who have expressed concern about the Bill to try to find a workable solution. We cannot go much further until the Minister puts his proposals on the table.

In the latter part of my question I asked the Minister if he will consider removing without further delay age discrimination regarding entry into the public service. The situation throughout the public service is very confusing. When we discussed this matter before I mentioned to the Minister that there was an age limit of 50 for a lower clerical position. I am glad to say that the man to who I was referring, who is 51 years of age and is fit and active, has since got a good job in the new Marks & Spencers in Dublin. It is crazy that he is refused entry to the public service.

Dublin Fire Brigade is holding a competition in respect of which applications must be submitted not later than 5 p.m. on Thursday, 31 October. Applicants must be under the age of 26. However, service in local government or the Army may be taken into consideration.

The Deputy should not go on too long.

When I looked into the matter I discovered that, in Cork, an allowance is made for service in the Civil Defence. This is not the case in Dublin. These differences should not exist. It constitutes discrimination against young people going for fire fighting jobs in Dublin who have service in the Civil Defence for which the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach has responsibility.

That should be adequate.

If such service merits recognition in Cork it should merit recognition in Dublin. I ask the Minister to deal with these issues urgently.

The Deputy has the makings of some good questions to the Minister for Finance, the Minister for the Environment and perhaps one or two others. He should direct questions regarding the cases he cites to the appropriate Minister.

Age limits for recruitment to the public sector are not enshrined in legislation. Legislation governing recruitment to the Civil Service is silent on the question of age limits. After the enactment of the Employment Equality Bill, 1996 public sector employers as well as others in the private sector will have to comply with its terms as far as age equality is concerned. It comes under the ambit of my Department.

The Minister referred to irreconcilable differences. I am sure he realises that many groups are dismayed at the delay in publishing the Equal Status Bill. A way must be found to free the blockage sooner rather than later. Would it be possible to facilitate a face to face meeting of those with irreconcilable differences? Does the Minister think this would be a good idea or that it would be possible to free the blockage within the Department?

The Minister has mentioned that many areas will be encompassed by the Bill, particularly those which affect the status of women. It is ironic that when we refer to women — I am not saying that the Minister refers to them in this way — we refer to them as if they were a minority group although they are in a slight majority in this society. How near is the Minister to reconciling these irreconcilable differences?

The Deputy is, I am sure unintentionally, misinterpreting what I said. I did not say there was anything irreconcilable in the preparation of the Equal Status Bill. What I said was that the only issues which are not reconcilable are those which are irreconcilable. My objective is to produce legislation which is appropriate, balanced, fair and reasonable. I am working very hard to achieve this. It is very important that we should introduce such legislation. As Deputies know, the legislation will enable Ireland to ratify a very important international convention on racism which has been ratified by 140 countries worldwide. It is extremely important that we ratify this convention.

I will meet anybody who wants to meet with me in connection with the legislation. Yesterday I had a meeting with another Chamber of Commerce. I do not think it is necessary or advisable to bring together groups that may have different approaches to it. This is the place to discuss those issues and to consider any compromises that may be appropriate. We do that very well in this House under the guidance of the Ceann Comhairle, and we will do so in connection with this Bill. I hope we will bring forward good legislation on a difficult and complex area. I look forward to the debate on this legislation and I will continue to have a sympathetic ear to the views of various groups but, even more so, to the views of Deputies on all sides of this House.

Question No. 4 is in the name of Deputy Woods. I am now taking Priority Questions Nos. 4 and 5 in ordinary time.

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