Vol. 469 No. 7
4 Mr. Martin asked the Minister for Education the reason the conditions for recognising and sanctioning new gaelscoileanna were changed in July 1996; and when notice of the changes was first given to interested parties. [17804/96]
16 Ms O'Donnell asked the Minister for Education if she will reconsider four gaelscoileanna which were excluded from official recognition, contrary to expectation; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18050/96]
74 Mr. Browne (Wexford) asked the Minister for Education the reason for her refusal to sanction a gaelscoil for Enniscorthy town, County Wexford in spite of the fact that all criteria were adhered to by the committee and parents in charge. [17517/96]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 4, 16 and 74 together.
I did not change the conditions for the recognition of new gaelscoileanna. It must be appreciated that a successful gaelscoil, like any national school, depends on genuine parental demand. For that reason, my Department has a requirement that a gaelscoil should have at least 20 junior infants who had not attended school previously before recognition can be granted. This is not a new condition; it has been in existence for a number of years.
It will be apparent that, if a school is unable to provide such an enrolment on opening, its viability in the future must be in doubt. Before a new school is given recognition I must be assured that it will be viable.
The White Paper on Education — Charting our Education Future — drew attention to the significant demographic decline in primary school enrolments projected over the next few years. The current rate of decline is of the order of 11,000 pupils per annum. The White Paper pointed out that this rapid demographic decline poses a major challenge for the provision of primary schooling.
The condition to which the Deputy is referring stated that what was necessary was an enrolment of 20 children who had not attended national school before. The clear intention of this condition always was that the school would be in a position to enrol that number of pupils each year. However, a practice had developed of applicant schools starting up privately, without departmental sanction, and accumulating a combined enrolment of 20 over two or three years. Approval for such applications had, indeed, been granted in previous years but, this year, the basic policy criterion requiring 20 junior infants per annum was strictly followed in order to ensure the future viability of the applicant schools at a time when total numbers are dropping.
The general position in regard to new gaelscoileanna for 1996-97 is that 14 applications for the recognition of new gaelscoileanna were received in my Department this year. Six of these applications were approved initially and a further three were approved on appeal. Five applicant schools could not be given recognition. In the case of Ballinamore, Ballybrack, Clones and Enniscorthy, this was because the proposed schools were unable to meet the enrolment criterion.
The Maynooth application did not succeed because it was considered that adequate provision exists at present in the nearby Kilcock gaelscoil. Over half of the enrolment in the Kilcock school comes from the Maynooth area.
On a general note, I am happy to extend recognition to all applicant gaelscoileanna where the need for such a facility has been clearly established. In that context, I am prepared early in 1997 to consider fresh applications from each of the above areas for the 1997-98 school year.
The Minister said she has not changed the conditions but the practice. The parents of children in the gaelscoileanna involved, based on the experience of other gaelscoileanna and the practice of the Minister and her officials, expected they would receive recognition this year on the grounds that they had 20 pupils over a two year period. The Minister informed the schools as late as 25 or 26 July that they would not get recognition, despite the fact that they applied as far back as February this year. The Minister behaved in a disgraceful manner towards those parents. Irrespective of policy considerations, the very least they deserve is respect and courtesy from the Minister. A phone call almost four weeks before commencement of the new school year was a totally inadequate response. It certainly signalled a significant change in practice, as admitted by Department officials at a press briefing on 21 August.
I very much wish that we would not personalise matters.
In recognising any school I have an obligation to ensure that investment in the school is sound. There are 95 gaelscoileanna in operation and 31 of those were approved by me. I have signalled in a practical way my commitment to the gaelscoileanna.
On setting up a gaelscoil there is a requirement that for the school to be viable, there should be an enrolment of 20 pupils per year. The school would then be entitled to a free site, 100 per cent funding for building, a special pupil-teacher ratio and extra funding towards school books because of the requirement to teach in Irish. When a proposition is put to the Department on the need for a school the Department has to satisfy itself that it will remain a viable school within the community.
There have been changes since the former Minister, John Wilson, made special provision for gaelscoileanna and outlined for them very special conditions, at a time when it looked as if teaching through the medium of Irish in urban communities was on the decline. There is now a rapid decline in population and, for the sake of parents who are totally committed, before sanctioning a school the Department must be satisfied as to its viability. I cannot be satisfied that the schools that did not get the go-ahead would be in a viable position given the changing demographic trends. Applications for further gaelscoileanna will be considered earlier in the school year than was the case this year.
The Minister admitted that a practice developed in the Department in recent years where recognition was given to gaelscoileanna that had 20 pupils over a two year period. She said the basic policy is that the schools should have 20 pupils in one year but that the practice was that sanction would be given if there were 20 pupils in the school over a two year period. The schools that applied from February this year onwards worked on that assumption. One gaelscoil had 36 pupils when it reapplied, in the full expectation that it would get sanction. We all accept there is a need for pro-active policy formulation in this area, to consider the demographics and so on, but surely the Minister could have signalled in February that there would be a change in the practice as developed by Department officials and that a different approach would be adopted in the next school year.
At the Oireachtas all-party Committee on the Irish Language Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher questioned the Minister on this point on 24 July. The Minister should take the opportunity today to correct the record of that meeting. In reply to Deputy Gallagher's request for a guarantee that there would be no change in the regulations the assistant inspector said:
Ba mhaith liom a chinntiú don Teachta nach bhfuil athrú ar bith tagtha ar na rialacha do bhunú gaelscoileanna. Níl aon athrú meoin [there is no change of attitude] ar an Roinn faoi láthair agus níl aon cheann beartaithe againn go luath.
The following day the Minister refused to sanction gaelscoileanna in Ballybrack and Enniscorthy. The Minister should apologise to that committee, particularly to the members concerned. She should put the record straight that there was clearly a change of practice, with the result that a grave injustice was done to the communities involved. Can we have a reply from the Minister?
The Chair cannot compel any Member to speak if he or she does not want to.
May I seek your guidance on this matter?
Order, I am calling Deputy Keogh.
Will the Minister agree that she misled parents, particularly those in her constituency who support the gaelscoil in Ballybrack? Those people, who were assured by her that their school would go ahead, believe they were totally misled, and the Minister should apologise to them.
The Progressive Democrats spokesperson is putting a case to a Minister about her constituency while ignoring simple rules about viability and investment.
The Minister ignored those rules for the past three years.
Let us hear the Minister's reply.
I met the parents involved, but if one side says it does not believe the other side, it is difficult to establish what happened at the meeting. I can give my account of what happened, but the interpretation conveyed to the Deputy does not amount to the truth. We requested transcripts from the committee and they arrived in the Department, in Irish, today. I do not have as fluent Irish as the Deputy. I have asked for them to be translated.
I had them a month ago.
I am glad the Deputy can say that. My Department requested the transcripts of that committee. I know the Deputy was not there that day but many of his colleagues were.
I could not be.
I asked for the transcripts which I have now received. They arrived in Irish and I have asked for them to be translated. I have already indicated that I would like to return to the committee because I do not want the committee to be under any misapprehension about the rules laid down for gaelscoileanna. While the Deputy can talk about practice, I have been asked about changing the rules which are in force.
Conditions.
If I were convinced that I should make a site, 100 per cent funding and special teachers available because these people could have a viable school I would do it, given my record of recognition of gaelscoileanna which far surpasses that of any other Minister.
Untrue.
Let us be careful about the use of that word, Deputy.
It is absolutely true.
I was talking in terms of policy, not personally.
My responsibility is to ask if these applications are coming from a viable group. Given the criteria, the falling population and the information we have, I could not tell those parents that I will open a school for them in the knowledge that those children who enter the naíonra will come to sixth class in this gaelscoil. I could not say that. I have invited them to reapply next year when we will look again at the population trends and the numbers that have indicated they will join. Any school which is viable will receive recognition. It is worth noting that when two such schools opened their doors after receiving recognition they had fewer than 20 pupils even though they had assured Department officials otherwise.
How did they get recognition? That is bizarre. The rules are changing.
They got recognition before opening their doors in September, and they had given all the information to my Department. There is a responsibility to ask people in those communities if the school is viable and whether, as parents, they should depend on this school to take their children from junior infants to sixth class.
The Minister should say it in February, not in July.
I have indicated that officials will meet early in the year with those who are applying. However, given the fact that even on the information made available they did not reach the targets they said they had surpassed, it will make the Department cautious and careful to ensure that the rules will apply.
(Wexford): How can the Minister stand over a situation where the committee of Gaelscoil Inis Coirthe was in negotiation with the Department of Education through February, March, April, May and June, yet at no time was it informed that the Minister intended to change the interpretation of the rules that had been in existence for a number of years? It was continually told by her officials that if the required numbers were built up over two years it would get approval.
How is it that in June 1996 the same gaelscoil was given the go ahead to advertise for a school principal? It is obvious, both to me and to the gaelscoil committee in Enniscorthy, that while her officials' interpretation was that the rules for recognising gaelscoileanna would operate as in previous years, the Minister stated otherwise in a television interview in July.
The Minister owes an apology to the gaelscoil committee in Enniscorthy for allowing them to debate the issue for four months with the Department of Education while she had obviously not informed her officials what stance she intended to take. How can the Minister justify the constant negotiations by her departmental officials and also allowing the school to advertise for a principal? Gaelscoil Inis Coirthe is probably operating unofficially in the Minister's opinion but it has 24 plus students, so it is meeting all the criteria that have been set.
The Deputy has raised the question of a particular school. He has gone from the general to the particular. I do not know if the Minister can deal with that aspect.
I was confident that the schools receiving recognition were viable but at that stage I could not give recognition to any group of people nor could I give an undertaking that their school would become viable. That is where my accountability must lie.
(Wexford): Why were they allowed to advertise for a school principal?
The Deputy should table a special question in respect of the school that he is concerned about.
The Deputy has a question on the Order Paper.
That may be so but we are dealing with Question No. 4.
On what date did the change of policy take place? Would the Minister agree it is unfair to have policy changes at a late stage? Can the Minister guarantee that by February 1997 there will be a cogent policy which will not be changed and which will allow the development of gaelscoileanna? I naturally accept the Minister supports such schools but can she tell us precisely when she decided to change the rules? Does the Minister think it was unfair to change the policy at such a late stage? Those schools should have been allowed to continue. A proper policy should be introduced involving full discussions between the gaelscoileanna and the Department of Education next February.
There is no date or time in my mind. There is, however, a responsibility that when recognition is being given to schools we can guarantee they are viable units before we invest funding in them on anyone's behalf. I have given an undertaking to deal with applicants for the next year's recognition earlier in the school year. However, the Department of Education has quite a challenge in dealing with the drop in demographics when we look forward to investing in the primary school sector. Policy concerning the recognition of new primary schools is to be reviewed under the terms of the commission on school accommodation. All the partners involved in primary education, including the gaelscoileanna organisation, already serve on that commission which has just completed its work on the vocational education committee rationalisation. The commission's next task is planning for the demographic decline. It is relevant information that any community should have. We must look at viability differently from the way the former Minister, John Wilson, looked at it when he gave recognition to gaelscoileanna and made special provision for their expansion.
(Wexford): He was a far seeing man.
I am anxious to dispose of Question No. 4 and to proceed to Question No. 5 shortly. I also wish to assure Deputy Browne that he was entitled to advert to a school in Enniscorthy. It is enjoined with Question No. 74. I am sorry if I misled him in any way.
(Wexford): I did not get an answer.
I should like to help the Deputy but it is out of my hands.
The Deputy will learn about that.
(Wexford): The Minister might answer it before we leave the House.
I wish to return to the question of the presentation to the Oireachtas committee in July.
The Deputy was not even there.
I find it extraordinary that the Minister should say she has just received the transcripts, given that I raised this on the Order of the Business three weeks ago. The Minister had four days' notice of this priority question and I had possession of the transcripts almost a month ago. Despite this, the Minister says her officials could not get hold of this transcript and could not translate it. We do not have to translate the Minister's statement to the committee in response to Deputy Gallagher and Deputy Moynihan because it was in English. Deputy Gallagher explicitly asked if 20 pupils over a period of two years as opposed to one year would continue to be specified.
Brevity, please.
The Minister stated the regulations would remain unchanged, that she would not dare answer the questions put to her, that it was a matter for the school accommodation committee and she did not have answers. Yet, the following day she refused to sanction two gaelscoileanna. It is clear that both she and her team misled the committee. It is lame to suggest that she wants to return to it because its members may have been under a misapprehension. They were not under a misapprehension. The Minister should take the opportunity to apologise to them.
In retrospect, the Deputy may wish to amend the statement that the Minister misled the committee, in the strict sense of the word.
I have no doubt the committee was misled.
Perhaps unwittingly.
In the minutes which I have read, Deputy Pat Cope Gallagher articulated his worries and concerns. On the recognition of gaelscoileanna, he was concerned that there would be a change in the attitude of the Minister and the Department. He indicated that until now a figure of 20 pupils over a period of two years was considered satisfactory.
I asked for brevity, this is dragging on interminably. The Deputy must bring matters to finality.
He was guaranteed there would not be a change in attitude or in the rules.
I only received the minutes of the meeting today.
That amounts to incompetence on the part of the Minister and her officials.
The Deputy should be courteous enough to listen to the reply.
I am not blaming my officials. The Deputy may wish to raise the matter at the committee. I have outlined when I will be in position to return to deal with the matter in the English language so that nobody will be under a misapprehension. The rules have not changed. Given the projected enrolments, it would not have been wise or proper to make an investment in the schools concerned. They would not have been viable. There are 95 gaelscoileanna flourishing in the State, one-third of which were recognised by me.
Given what happened at the committee when the Minister discussed the issue of gaelscoileanna, is it any wonder the Ballybrack parents group went away totally confused and under the impression they would be able to proceed on the same basis as other schools. It was not until July they were told they could not do so. Because of the uncertainty, parents were unwilling to take a chance that there would be a recognised school available in September and placed their children in other schools. They had no wish to do this. Does the Minister accept that this is one of the reasons schools did not reach the quota?
The Deputy and I are familiar with the parents group in Ballybrack. If I was satisfied the numbers were sufficient to guarantee a junior infants class, a senior infants class and rang a h-aon to rang a sé, I would have been the first to grant recognition. My Department examined the population trends and looked at the numbers and names submitted and could not satisfy the group's needs.
Why did it take five months?
The interruptions must cease.
I was not satisfied that the school would be viable. Gaelscoileanna are 100 per cent funded.
(Wexford): Given that the Government espouses the principle of openness, transparency and accountability, why is the Minister so evasive about the proposed gaelscoil in Enniscorthy? Why did her Department grant permission to advertise for a principal at a time when she had no intention of approving the school? Will she apologise to the parents and children for leading them down the wrong path?
The school in Enniscorthy was one of five refused recognition because it did not have an enrolment of 20 junior infants in September.
Why was it given permission to advertise for a principal?
Does the House believe that I, as Minister, should invest money in schools which I do not consider would be a viable proposition and that I should be defensive? My record on the issue of gaelscoileanna speaks for itself. The Deputy is experiencing the same difficulty in Enniscorthy that I am experiencing in Ballybrack. The group concerned which is committed to providing a gaelscoil — it has been invited to reapply — has not yet been able to establish for the Department that the granting of recognition would ensure viability.
(Wexford): The Minister has evaded the question which was very specific.
