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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Nov 1996

Vol. 472 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Natural Heritage Conservation: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, recognising the need for conservation and sustainable farming methods, condemns the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht for the lack of openness, accountability and consultations particularly with the Houses of the Oireachtas in relation to his plans to introduce areas of conservation and further condemns him for not bringing the following promised legislation before the House, the Wildlife Amendment Bill and the National Parks and Heritage Areas Bill and notes with concern his stated intention to introduce regulations under the European Communities Act in relation to special areas of conservation without prior debate in the Oireachtas.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Hughes.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

When the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht came into office for the first time, few other Ministers were dealt such a good hand. As the programme for the Fianna Fáil and Labour partnership Government shows, the Minister landed on his feet. Even before he had excitedly danced his way to his new desk and his new Department, the Minister, Deputy Michael Higgins, already had the go-ahead in the programme for Teilifís na Gaeilge the headquarters of which was to be in his constituency. He had similar commitments in relation to increased funding for the Arts Council and the national cultural institutions. At the same time, he was given on a plate a plan for the development for the film industry which had come out of the 1992 Coopers & Lybrand study commissioned by Deputy Reynolds. The Minister was also in luck on the heritage front as he was the first Minister to reap the benefit of the newly formed Heritage Council.

The Minister also reaped the benefits of the decisions taken by the former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey, on the arts and heritage fronts over the years. The former Taoiseach encouraged the first Rosc exhibition and introduced freedom from tax for creative writers and artists, which he later supplemented with the Aosdána scheme. He established the Irish Museum of Modern Art in Kilmainham. He saved Temple Bar from destruction and created a thriving cultural quarter there. He also removed VAT from books, and Government Buildings is one of Mr. Haughey's many monuments.

All these formed a sound structure which the new Minister was handed on a plate. With the Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht portfolio, the Minister had inherited the earth, although he is by no means one of the meek. A rich, developed legacy dropped into his lap. With the hardest work done for him, the Minister was in a strong position to attend to the details of his portfolio, consult about the future and bolster the legal framework in many areas of our culture and heritage. However, the Minister has not done any of this. He has proved an unworthy successor to the legacy and structures left by Mr. Haughey and others. This motion shows that the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht has behaved in a contemptible manner.

What is even more obnoxious about his behaviour is how he will use taxpayers' money to try to cover up his failures. I refer in particular to an advertisement placed by him today in the farming section of the Irish Independent. No doubt, hearing that the buffalo were coming, the Minister decided he had better pretend to be more open on this issue. It is no coincidence that the advertisement appeared on the day when this debate began. The Minister will probably claim it is part of the consultation. How much did this damage limitation exercise for the Minister cost the taxpayer? It is a cynical abuse of power, especially when the advertisement omits to say the Minister intends to sign the changes into law within days. It is not a coincidence that every Deputy received a copy of the advertisement in the post this morning. Such measures seem to be panic measures on a day when we have the opportunity, thanks to the Fianna Fáil Party, to openly debate this issue in the House.

The Minister has been one of the most secretive in this Government. In relation to this conservation issue, despite what the advertisement says, he did not consult the Houses of the Oireachtas or the farmers who will be directly affected. The same story has applied to the interest groups involved with the National Cultural Institutions Bill currently before the Seanad. The Minister has been forced to consult only at this late stage in relation to that legislation.

One might wonder why the Minister behaves in such a highhanded fashion. It is certainly not because he is busy with legislation. None of the 32 Bills enacted so far this year has involved the Minister. As is highlighted in the motion, important legislation promised by the Minister has still not materialised. This includes the Wildlife Amendment Bill and the National Parks and Heritage Areas Bill, which are directly related to the conservation issue. Major legislation in the Minister's area remains on a list of promised Bills.

The railroading through of these conservation proposals is not due to the fact that the Minister is busy building his own arts and culture legacy. When one reflects, it is hard to think of anything which the Minister has originated and achieved on the arts, culture, heritage or Gaeltacht fronts during his term of office. Apart from some photo opportunities with Hollywood film stars and writers at the Frankfurt book fair, he will have to hold the coat tails of others to claim a legacy of any sort.

The lack of openness, accountability and consultation in relation to the conservation areas reflects his overall attitude to office. Like a throwback to the old Stalinist days, the Minister believes he can make his decrees without discussion or debate. The Minister knows best and nobody is allowed to question that. His use of taxpayers' money today for a personal advertisement reflects his cynical attitude to office.

The background to our motion relates to the Minister's plans to introduce an EU directive on conservation areas. This Directive No. 43/1992 on national habitats has been around for some time. It had always been expected that this directive would come into Irish law in some form, but it was anticipated this would happen by way of a Bill and that there would be full and open debate and consultation during the preparation of the legislation. We had been led to believe that one of the many Bills endlessly promised for the last two years by the Minister would deal with this matter. Out of the blue, on 12 November the Minister announced in the Dáil during Question Time that he would be bringing this directive into force before the end of the month.

The Minister's plan to bring the directive into force by way of regulations rather than a Bill is deliberately designed to circumvent discussion. Regulations do not have to be approved by the Oireachtas, are not subject to a vote and are normally only presented following a debate on actual legislation. With a Bill there would have to be consultation and openness but the Minister is presenting the regulations as a fait accompli. This is a backdoor and secretive mechanism for bringing the EU directive into Irish law.

It is questionable procedure to use regulations to bring this directive into Irish law as, like so many other things the Minister does, it may be open to legal challenge. The courts have established there are times when a Bill is necessary to introduce an EU directive into Irish law, and when it can be done by regulation. I do not believe this is an occasion when it can be done by regulation. Will the Minister give the Attorney General's advice on this issue to the House tonight?

The Minister is currently facing a challenge to his power to make regulations to compulsorily acquire 17 of the 25 plots of the Great Blasket island. The plans for areas of scientific interest give rise to a Supreme Court challenge in the absence of a clear legal basis. The Minister may be opening the State to further legal challenge because of the manner in which he is progressing this issue.

The reason we are so shocked that regulations are being used is the number of people who will be affected but have not been consulted. The directive provides for the status of special areas of conservation, SACs, to be assigned to environmentally sensitive farming and bogland, primarily along the western seaboard and on the islands off Ireland. Most of the SACs will be applied to areas which have already been designated national heritage areas. In effect, SAC designation will remove control of land from farmers who will have to apply to the EU if they wish to engage in any farming activity. Primarily of interest to the EU is that the land and environment of the SACs be preserved in their natural habitats.

National heritage areas cover 5,000 farmers and 7 per cent of the total land surface. Under the proposed regulations, two thirds of NHAs will become special areas of conservation. The SACs will cover 750,000 acres at 1,200 sites and will involve thousands of landowners. Special protection areas have also been designated for particular bird species. There are 106 of them covering 148,000 acres. The natural heritage areas designations are to be made under an amendment to the Wildlife Act, 1976. That is the correct course as it will follow full debate and consultation. These SAC regulations will not be subject to the same level of openness. The level of information provided by the Minister has been abysmal. For example, just days before he will sign the regulations we still do not know what sites are involved and if a list of the sites has yet been sent to Brussels. The Minister is making a fundamental mistake in ignoring farming and local communities before making the regulations. Retrospective consultation is not good enough. Farmers are at the front-line of conservation. They are a key constituent in any plan to develop special areas of conservation.

Fianna Fáil favours a balanced approach to conservation where the rights of landowners are respected. The party believes farmers have a key role to play and the development of SACs must occur in consultation with them. We accept the need for conservation and sustainable farming methods. Unlike many others, we are extremely concerned that more than two million acres of peatland have already been damaged. A total of 17.2 per cent of State territory is under peatland and about half of it has been damaged. We recognise the need for something to be done, but we firmly believe farmers and local communities should be consulted. They must not be trampled on, but must become a social partner in the process. The Labour Party makes much of its respect for the social partners in the talks on national agreements. Farmers are one of those partners, but they have not been treated as such on this issue.

The Minister's behaviour reminds me of something written recently by David Hickey of An Taisce. In a report commissioned by the Heritage Council on the NHAs, Mr. Hickey warned that the folk memory of landlordism still lives on. What the Minister is doing smacks of that. He is casting himself as some sort of new Cromwell trying to take over land without consultation or compensation. Mr. Hickey's report went on to say that to make NHAs more acceptable there should be compensation where the livelihoods of landowners are significantly affected by designation. The Minister has airbrushed the compensation issue out of the picture. We believe the conservation proposals must be fashioned in such a way as to ensure that farmers' incomes are not jeopardised. The Minister must make information available on what compensation is planned and must be upfront about the issue. At present farmers believe no compensation will be paid for ineligibility for grant aid. That must be clarified tonight by the Minister.

A recent meeting in Galway was told the entire EU budget from all 15 member states from which such compensation will come amounts to £100 million a year. Is that the full extent of the compensation planned? What will it mean for individual farmers? Will taxes have to be imposed on other sectors such as agri-business and tourism? The Minister has also refused to disclose details of the restrictions to be placed on farming practices or appeal structures against the designation. The Fianna Fáil demand is for a proper and meaningful consultation and for an independent appeals structure. In direct contact with the farmer it must be made clear if the only grounds for appeal will be on a scientific basis. These issues must be clarified as a matter of urgency.

There should be an interdepartmental approach to this issue. At present the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry offers incentives that lead to overgrazing. The Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht disapproves of that, but there does not appear to be any communication between the two Departments. One arm of Government has no input into the actions of another. That must end. I propose an interdepartmental approach to the conservation areas proposal. The Departments of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, the Environment and Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht must come together and consult. The SACs could be achieved as part of a partnership arrangement with the EU, the Government, farmers and the rural community. It could be done as part of an overall plan for economic and rural regeneration and, through education, there could be common recognition of the environmental importance of such areas. Without openness, accountability and consultation there will not be progress. Progress must start here with a full and open debate before any regulations are signed. There must be consultation about whether regulations are even the correct legal way forward. For once the Minister should address these issues in an open and accommodating way. On behalf of Fianna Fáil, I commend the motion to the House.

I congratulate Deputies de Valera and Lawlor for using the Opposition's time this week to discuss this matter of public importance which is causing widespread concern and, in some instances, fear in the farming community, particularly among small fragmented farmholders in the west. Coming from west Mayo I recognise how environmentally sensitive and important is much of the area of my constituency, that what has been inherited and, in the main, preserved by the rural farming community must be passed on intact to the next generation and that only sustainable farming methods will be acceptable.

Directive 92/43 will establish a common framework for the conservation of animals, plants and natural habitats and such a network of special areas of conservation is proposed to be set up throughout Europe to be known as NATURA 2000 and, in addition, each country is required to establish its list of areas to be designated as being of scientific value to be known as natural heritage areas. ASIs were the forerunner of NHAs and everybody now knows the background to the ASI debacle, the unconstitutionality finding by the Supreme Court and that the developers of a worthwhile proposal in Clifden, stymied for several years, could proceed further with their investigation of its viability.

It was recognised that farming practices during the past 20 years have changed as a result of the Common Agricultural Policy with direct income supports and quotas on the one hand and increased production and intensification on the other. However, farmers were encouraged by the European Union, State agencies, State employees and Teagasc officials to undertake this course during the past 20 years, otherwise they would disappear from the farming scene. EU-designed schemes are directly responsible for these changes and farmers must not be blamed for availing of the opportunities, actively supported by Government Departments and State bodies, to ensure that their small farmholdings became viable and were capable of producing sufficient income to maintain farm families. For the past 100 years we have seen a consistent fall in rural population in counties such as Mayo, but the downward trend has dramatically slowed and at the last Census it had stabilised. However, notwithstanding the massive transfer of resources from the EU to Ireland to support the agriculture industry, it is recognised that 80 per cent of those transfers go to less than 20 per cent of the farming community — that 20 per cent do not live in Connacht — and, accordingly, 80 per cent of the farming community get the balance. It is in the west where there are mainly small farmholdings that the average headage and premium payments amount to £3,500, not a large sum of money by any yardstick. Furthermore, recent proposals put on the table during the Irish Presidency, if implemented, could have a further dramatic effect, particularly on farmers aged over 65, as could a capping of the maximum amount of income supports to which participating farmers could be eligible.

Like any other sector, the farming community, in this instance, small farmers in the west, will exercise their rights and take whatever action is necessary to ensure their interests are not jeopardised or undermined and that their future livelihoods can be maintained. Any EU directive or regulation arising therefrom transposed into Irish law must take account of that. Despite the EU directive being passed in 1992 and assurances that there has been widespread consultation and negotiation on the EU habitats directive, that is not how it is seen from the farming community's perspective.

A public meeting organised by the IFA was held on 19 November in Westport and attended by between 500 and 600 farmers, some of whom travelled over 70 and 80 miles over very icy roads. The meeting considered the Minister's reply to inquiries by Deputy de Valera in the House on 12 November when he said that he proposed to give effect to the European Habitats Directive and to transpose the directive into legislation later in the month. The Minister went on to advise that after the passage of the legislation he would propose the best peatland sites for designation as special areas of conservation and that no activity or development likely to have a significantly damaging effect on these sites would be allowed other than on the grounds of human health and public safety. However, one person's perception of what activity or development is likely to have a significantly damaging effect on these sites can be different from another's.

Who is the arbitrator of the standard? Is it to be officials who have never dirtied their hands in farming activity? At the meeting the IFA categorically denied that there was any meaningful negotiation or consultation with the Minister or his officials in respect of SACs. The effect and implication of such a designation has not been comprehended and the general body of farmers want to be assured they will be able to continue with their activities after designation. Otherwise, the implications must be spelt out clearly and unequivocally. If farm incomes are to be affected a compensation package must be negotiated and put in place between the Minister and the representative farm bodies. Nothing short of this will be acceptable. In this respect, the Minister would be well advised to follow the example of his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and his officials as to how best to make progress and achieve cooperation and support from the farming community.

I have seen the maps of the proposed national heritage areas. Substantial parts of my county, especially west Mayo drawing a line from Ballycastle to Linane, are so designated. County Mayo probably has the highest percentage of land mass in the country of proposed natural heritage areas. Much of the land is on divided commonage, held in many instances by large numbers of farmers, some of whom reside and work on the land and some of whom are now living abroad in the UK or the US owing to the lack of job opportunities which could have been offered to them but were not.

Some farm the land more intensively than others. Many of the commonages are proposed natural heritage areas, but the REP scheme has regrettably not had the desired uptake. However, progress has been made and, recognising that the REP scheme is voluntary, it is a matter for the farmer and his REP scheme planner to determine on a compliance with the scheme; especially with regard to stocking levels.

Changes have been made to the REP scheme to make it more attractive to farmers. They were obtained by the skilful negotiation, understanding and experience of the IFA and the Minster for Agriculture, Food and Forestry and made the scheme more attractive and viable. It will be seen to work more on commonage land than heretofore. They include the exemption of the first £2,000 of income under the scheme from affecting social welfare entitlements. Nevertheless, income from the scheme over that level can bring farmers into the tax net or remove their entitlement to social welfare and ancillary benefits, such as medical cards.

The proposed natural heritage areas to be given a statutory footing by amending the Wildlife Act, 1976, have not caused the same level of concern as the special areas of conservation due to the fact that the procedure for notification, appeals and the National Parks and Wildlife Service approval of agriculture grants in respect of NHAs has been redefined as part of the substitution of the NHAs for the old systems of the ESIs. It is the stated intention of the National Parks and Wildlife Service to give notice to every landowner within an NHA of its proposed designation through individual notification sent by post as well as through public notices, which appeared in December 1994 in local newspapers. These notifications are important, not only to encourage participation in the REP scheme, but also to make good the legal shortcomings of the ESI system as found by the courts in the Clifden airport judgment.

However, the provision of special areas of conservation will become compulsory. There is no voluntary aspect to the scheme and any reading and interpretation of the proposed natural habitats regulations makes clear that the designation of farmers' lands as being a special area of conservation will have consequences for the long-term effect and legal status of that holding.

The proposed regulations allow the EU Commission to initiate consultation with the Minister in the case of a site that is not included. They further provide for restrictions in the carrying out of operations and activities on those sites. Who determines the operations or activities? Are they to be known in advance of the signing of the regulations or are they to be forced on the farming community after they become law?

Some of these sites have been known as European sites and the landowner must not undertake any operation or activity mentioned in a notice unless that person has obtained the prior permission of the Minister. The Minister must advise on the kind of activities he considers will not be permissible on such sites so that the farming community can discuss their effects on future farming practices.

The regulations further provide that the Minister may take a court injunction against any person undertaking any operation or activity inside or outside a European site — this will lead to an extension of such sites — or on a site placed on the list under regulation, or where consultation has been initiated by the EU. Furthermore, the regulations provide for the compensation of landowners whose land is affected by designation.

I have only seen the explanatory memorandum to date. I have not seen the proposed draft regulations, but doubtless they will be detailed and comprehensive to give effect to the intention, as set out in the explanatory memorandum. They appear to provide for objections to be lodged within a period of two months and, following consideration of such objections, for transmission of the list to the EU Commission. Who is to hear these objections? Will it be a body of persons employed in the Minister's Department or an independent appeals mechanism?

How is the level of compensation to be assessed in respect of land affected by designation? The regulations provide that compensation is payable based on the amount equal to the damage suffered by the owner or occupier by the depreciation of an interest in the land to which he is entitled as a result of the discontinuance, or the compliance with the conditions on the continuance, of any use of the land consequent on designation as a special area of conservation. Terminology such as this should lead to a viable solicitor's practice in terms of determining levels of compensation for those who have been driven out of their customary way of life.

How are these damages to be assessed? Is it on a once-off basis and paid as a lump sum or by instalments? Is it to be calculated over a period of years, with the farmer in question being assessed on the basis of his capability to undertake normal farming activity depending on his age or other factors? Is the compensation to be taxable if received as a lump sum or as an income? The IFA and the other representative groups are entitled to this information before matters are signed into law. Regulations can be signed by the Minister without being debated in this House. I am delighted, therefore, that Deputy de Valera moved this motion to make the Minister accountable.

The regulations go on to provide for the erection of notices on lands indicating the existence of the designation. Is the farmer to be responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of such notices? The regulations, especially the explanatory memorandum, which I have only had sight of, raise many serious questions. The Minister is about to sign regulations when the groups representing farmers, especially the small farmers of the west, state that there has been no meaningful negotiation and consultation and that many questions remain unanswered.

Not true.

These groups wish to satisfy their members that they have negotiated with the Minister on the satisfactory implementation of the regulations.

What about Mr. Gunning?

The Minister of State is responsible for the survival of the west. I am sure he will be able to explain the extent of the negotiations that have occurred and whether the farming community is satisfied. Why did the Minister have to use public advertisements? That was an unprecedented step. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry never had to do this. It amounts to megaphone diplomacy, and negotiation and consultation at arm's length. The Minister of State should be much more sympathetic.

I will do much more than the Deputy.

The Minister of State has a paltry budget.

I will remember the Deputy's claims.

It is a panic measure.

Every new job announced is in the Pale. If the Minister of State wants facts and figures, I will give him them.

It was stated in an article in Business and Finance in February this year that an estimated 2 to 3 per cent of the country was likely to be designated. In July 1995 the IFA claimed it had information that up to 20 per cent of the areas described as natural heritage areas would be designated as special areas of conservation. My latest information — this was borne out by Deputy de Valera — is that up to 70 per cent of the proposed natural heritage areas in west Mayo will be subject to compulsory designation.

Apart from normal farming activity, what are the implications for the exploitation of turbary rights, the extraction of turf either to supply one's family's fuel needs for the winter or to supplement one's income, as happens in Ballycroy, by supplying turf to other families who do not have access to turbary?

What are the implications of the designation of the entire inner section of Clew Bay and every square inch of every island in the bay, including Inishturk and Clare Island, as special areas of conservation? Will this affect the 300 members of Clew Bay Oyster Co-operative Society Limited involved in the shellfish business in the bay? Will it affect the further promotion and growth of the mariculture industry, particularly salmon farming, and also the further development of wild trout fisheries with which it is in conflict? Who has the Minister's ear in this debate?

Will the compensation package, the contents of which are not known, take into account loss of income only? Will compensation be payable for the reduction in the capital value of the underlying asset, namely, the farmland?

In an article in the Irish Farmers' Journal of 2 November an eminent auctioneer in County Galway, Matt O'Sullivan, was quoted as stating that potential buyers of lands designated as natural heritage areas were being put off by such restrictions. An auctioneer in County Tipperary was quoted as stating that because 40 per cent of a 69 acre farm he was selling was designated as a natural heritage area and forestry grants were not being paid on that portion of the land its value had been reduced significantly.

Until now there has been no statutory prohibition or control of normal day-to-day farming activities but with the transposition of the EU habitats directive into domestic law and the subsequent amendment of the Wildlife Act the questions I and others have posed must be answered. The farming community is as entitled as the myriad groups which comprise the environmental movement and others such as the Irish Peatlands Conservation Council and the Irish Wildbird Conservancy to have its voice heard. I support the general thrust of the work of these two bodies but a balance must be struck and environmentally sensitive areas must not be preserved at the expense of the continuation of viable farming using sustainable farming methods.

Members of the farming community are as entitled to be considered custodians of the environment, a function they have fulfilled for many hundreds of years, as the interest groups which have jumped on the bandwagon of environmental protection in more recent years. Those who seek to provide greater protection to wild species of birds and animals must also take into account the wish of rural farm families to preserve their way of life.

The preservation of a rural population with the ability to manage their own farms and maximise their incomes year in, year out without damaging the environment is essential if they are not to undergo dramatic change over the next ten to 20 years. There has been a drift from rural areas to towns and, particularly, to the east coast. Practically all the new jobs announced in companies with the potential to create 200 to 1,000 jobs are on the east coast. It was amusing to read about the Taoiseach's traffic initiative when caught in a traffic jam for two hours a few weeks ago. A blind man can see that the uncontrolled growth of Dublin city will cause major problems in terms of congestion. As the Government does not have the political will to spread new off-farm jobs evenly throughout the country, instead of being eased the problems will become more acute.

I do not want my portion of the constituency to become a large national park to be visited for eight weeks of the year by tourists to look inquisitively at the way the native rural population seek to survive at subsistence level, and for the remainder of the year the native rural population to ponder how they can survive without the tourism dollars. The tourism industry has not put a £20 note into the pockets of 99.9 per cent of the members of the farming community in the west. The Government and the European Union, if they want to have a say in relation to the way the west is preserved, will have to provide the wherewithal.

The IFA proposals are reasonable. It has suggested that, where it is proposed to designate lands, there must be a proper and meaningful consultation procedure, involving direct contact with the landowner, and an independent appeals mechanism under which economic as well as scientific factors are taken into account in deciding boundaries. Where restrictions are imposed farmers should be compensated for loss of income.

In January this year the Heritage Council expressed concern at the destruction of wildlife habitats, echoing complaints from a number of environmental groups. It was concerned that the Wildlife Act, 1976 had not been amended to allow for the designation of natural heritage areas to protect endangered wildlife habitats, and stated that recent controversies surrounding the Masonite plant, the Mutton Island sewage treatment works in Galway Bay and Pullboy Mill near Ballinasloe had arisen because of a lack of public consultation. Before signing the regulations the Minister must enter into meaningful consultations with the farming organisations, allowing them time to spell out the implications of special areas of conservation to their members, and agree a compensation package.

In relation to the advertisement, a copy of which, apparently, was sent to each Member — I have yet to receive it — it was brought to my attention that it was stated, in what I thought was a news article, in the farming supplement of the Irish Independent that some progress had been made on special areas of conservation. I went through the supplement several times but could not find it. I did not think for one moment that what I was looking for was an advertisement.

On 17 November the Minister said in the House that he would sign the measure into law before the end of the month. He has now done a U-turn for which I thank him. This will ensure that there will not be widespread confrontation. In the recent past beef farmers protested outside the House to make their case. If this measure is signed into law without the full support of the IFA, small farmers in the west who encounter most difficulties in surviving and receive the least amount from the European Union will bring their message loud and clear to Dublin.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and insert the following:

"Dáil Éireann, recognising the importance of the implementation of Council Directive 92/43/EEC on the conservation of natural habitats and of wild fauna and flora (Habitats Directive) and of the importance that it attaches to sustainable farming practices

— acknowledges the efforts of the Minister for Arts Culture and the Gaeltacht regarding ongoing consultations with farming and conservation interests;

—endorses his plans to transpose the directive into Irish law by regulations under the European Communities Act, 1972;

—notes his intention to bring forward the amendment to the Wildlife Act and the Bill to give statutory protection to national parks and heritage areas; and

—commends the Minister's record in introducing legislation for the protection of the heritage."

Deputy de Valera prefaced her remarks about Teilifís na Gaeilge, the Arts Council, the film industry and the National Heritage Council in what has become her consistent style and I wish to correct some untruths. When I became Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, there was no Cabinet decision in my possession to establish Teilifís na Gaeilge. Those decisions were taken in February 1993 and on 20 January 1995. Teilifís na Gaeilge was not in the Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrats programme for Government, although it was included in their election programmes.

Regarding the Arts Council, I have continually paid tribute to my predecessors who had responsibility for this area, including the distinguished contribution of former Taoiseach, Mr. Charles J. Haughey. In the six weeks that I was out of Government, funding for the Arts Council and the establishment of Teilifís na Gaeilge was cut. The Deputy also referred to the film industry. Before I took office one or two films were made each year. However, 49 films were made in 1995. The record of the Deputy's party in that area was the abolition of the Film Board; I refounded it.

She uttered another blatant untruth, which is as untrue as her recent statement that I refused to meet Clare FM, in relation to the National Heritage Council. I introduced legislation to establish the council on a statutory basis. These are all facts.

It is revisionism on the Minister's part.

These are all facts; it is not revisionist.

It is the Minister's approach to facts.

I challenge Deputy de Valera to check the record and then have the courage to come back to the House and withdraw her untruths.

I have checked it. I do not make statements without checking it.

The Minister, without interruption.

I would not have referred to these matters if the Deputy had not referred to them earlier. I will not allow Deputy de Valera to repeat untruths. If she can point out where I am wrong, I challenge her to come back to the House and say so.

Revisionism.

I have a difference with Deputy de Valera which does not relate to revisionism.

It is unfashionable now.

Unlike Deputy de Valera, I was reared on a small farm in County Clare, two descriptions which do not apply to her.

In that case the Minister should have a greater understanding of the situation of farmers.

Further consultation should be available.

Meetings about habitat regulations took place with farming representatives in my Department on Mespil Road on 4 July 1995; on 21 November 1995; on 13 June 1996 in Dáil Éireann; in Galway on 29 September 1996, and in my Department on Mespil Road on 1 October. On 15 October 1996 a meeting took place with the ICMSA in my Department on Mespil Road. A further meeting was held on 21 October 1996 and another meeting is due to take place tomorrow between officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, officials in my Department and the IFA.

Why is this necessary?

If one listened to Deputy de Valera, one would understand why it is necessary. One must take out an advertisement to publish the truth.

The real problem is that the Minister's definition is different from everybody else's.

We should move on from the Alice in Wonderland world of Deputy de Valera where if she says it, it is true.

Unfortunately that appears to be the Minister's philosophy.

It is crucial to set the context for this debate. The need to preserve nature is now recognised at a world level because biodiversity is currently under threat at an unprecedented rate and scale. The farming organisations, which are to the forefront of ecological management, accept this point. A quarter of all existing species are threatened with extinction within 30 years. In Europe 22 per cent of higher plants, 42 per cent of mammals and 52 per cent of fish are thought to be under threat and ecosystems and habitats are being degraded and destroyed across the continent.

Fortunately, Ireland still supports significant populations of some plants and animal species and a variety of important habitats but, even in Ireland, the rate of decline and loss of habitats and of animal and plant species has accelerated greatly in recent years. When any of these are lost or destroyed they cannot be replaced nor, generally, restored, no matter how much we may wish it or are prepared to invest. It is essential that we conserve nature as far as possible given its value and its direct and indirect economic and ecological values. Increased economic efficiency has, in some cases, resulted in adverse effects, including habitat destruction and elimination, pollution of watercourses, land and soil degradation and erosion. It has led to practices such as overgrazing which are not sustainable in any event, irrespective of their consequences for nature conservation.

It is essential that we provide for the conservation of our natural heritage, together with the long-term continuation of sustainable farming practices. These are not mutually exclusive goals and they can be successfully blended together in Ireland. It has been done in north Clare through consultation. By providing an environment in which nature can survive and flourish, we will provide for the long-term sustainability of agriculture and farmers.

The two most obviously relevant Community legislative instruments for nature conservation are the Birds Directive, adopted in 1979, and the Habitats Directive, adopted in 1992. The Habitats Directive in many respects represents a broadening of the Birds Directive to the full range of fauna and flora and their habitats. Both directives contain two groups of provisions for conservation, the direct protection of species and the protection of habitats. Together, these directives provide a framework for the conservation of fauna and flora and their habitats including, by the establishment of NATURA 2000, a network of sites for the conservation of species and habitats which are of Community importance. While they are particularly relevant, these instruments cannot be viewed or implemented in isolation from broader Community environmental and agricultural policy.

Pointe eile gur chóir a dhéanamh ag an tús ná nach uirlis raidiciúil í Treoir na nGnáthóga, atá tagtha sa mhullach orainn gan coinne. Tá sé fréamhaithe go bunúsach i gCoinbhinsiún Berne maidir le Fiadhúlra agus Gnáthóga Nádúrtha na hEorpa a chaomhnú -rud a aontaíodh chomh fada siar le 1979. Ón am sin i leith, aithníodh go raibh sé den riachtanas ár n-oidhreacht nádúrtha agus ár n-ilíocht bhitheolaíochta a chaomhnú agus glacadh leis an bprionsabal sin i mórán comhaontaithe, bíodh siad ag leibhéil réigiúnda, Eorpacha nó idirnáisiúnta. Bhí bunú córais d'fhonn na gnáthóga is tábhachtaí ó thaobh na héiceolaíochta de a chaomhnú mar chuid riachtanach de na comhaontaithe sin uile.

I wish to turn to the content of the Habitats Directive, and specifically the regulations which have been drafted with a view to transposing the directive into Irish law. The aim of the directive is to contribute towards ensuring biodiversity through the conservation of wild fauna and flora. A key provision in the achievement of this aim is the designation of special areas of conservation, SACs, and special protection areas, SPAs, to protect the best examples of natural habitats in the European Union. This laudable objective is one to which no doubt every Member subscribes, although I wonder. The directive was notified to member states by the European Commission on 5 June 1992. In accordance with Article 23 of the directive, member states are obliged to bring into force the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with the directive within two years of its notification.

In the SACs and SPAs, member states are required to take measures to avoid deterioration of natural habitat and, where development is proposed, to take account of the impact on the conservation status of the area. Thus, in order to comply with the Habitats Directive, Ireland is obliged to introduce certain controls to protect the areas which contain the best examples of natural habitats and to limit any developments likely to damage such sites. I will refer later to these controls and what they will mean to individual landowners. It is important first to put on the record the steps leading up to my producing the regulations to give effect to the directive.

Deputies will recall that this directive was notified to member states by the European Commission in June 1992 with two years within which to bring into force the necessary laws, regulations and administrative provisions. The responsibility at that time lay with the Office of Public Works and its then Minister, Deputy Noel Treacy. When I was appointed Minister I found that no progress whatever had been made in implementing the directive. Accordingly, I instituted an exhaustive consultation process with the various Departments affected by the directive, particularly the Departments of the Marine, Environment and Agriculture, Food and Forestry, as well as the European Commission.

I was also particularly conscious at all times of the necessity to consult conservation and farming interests. I refute categorically any suggestion that I did not consult with, or that I excluded from my deliberations, interested parties or their representatives. I have provided dates of some, but not all, of the meetings which took place with farming representatives. It is particularly tiresome to be lectured by certain members of the Opposition who singularly failed while in Government to advance the implementation of this directive one iota, although they knew what it involved and were aware of its timescale and obligations.

It has also been suggested that there has been a lack of openness reflected in the use of regulations to implement the directive. There is little need to remind Deputies that directives are most regularly implemented by way of regulation, not with the purpose of avoiding debate but as the most efficient and effective means of implementing a provision which is already legally binding. Let me give a few examples in the environmental and heritage areas: S.I. No. 349 of 1989 — regulations made on foot of the environmental impact assessment directive by the then Minister, Pádraig Flynn; S.I. No. 241 of 1982 — regulations to give effect to article 6 of the birds directive made by the then Minister Brendan Daly; S.I. No. 59 of 1994 — regulations under the birds directive made by the then Minister, Deputy Bertie Ahern.

I thought the Minister said that nothing had been done.

Tá go leor samplaí eile nach mbaineann leis an earnáil atá faoi chaibidil againn anseo tráthnóna. I again remind the House that the transposition of the directive is already overdue. With constant pressure from the Commission to transpose the directive, regulations were the best means to progress the matter. There was no element of seeking to slip in the regulations by the back door, as has been stated. Even before the Government gave approval on 26 June this year for the regulations to be drafted, I and my officials were involved in consultations with groups which would be affected by implementation of the regulations.

In regard to meetings and consultations with farming interests, in mid June this year I, with my officials, met members of the national executive of the IFA as well as representatives from Galway and Mayo. When drafting the regulations was under way, in late September I met the Connemara branch of the IFA. I also met members of the ICMSA. Throughout this period my officials as well as officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry have been regularly meeting members of the national executive and local branches of the IFA and the ICMSA. In the last couple of months alone my officials met farming representatives on 1 October, 15 October, 21 October and 22 November, as well as some meetings at local level.

The Minister is making bad headway.

The next meeting is planned for tomorrow where various items, including many of the items raised by Deputy de Valera, relevant to the implementation of the directive will be discussed. That meeting was arranged before there was news or sight of a resolution.

This is not the first time I raised this matter.

I would like to draw the attention of Deputies to a three day workshop, organised by the National Parks and Wildlife Service division of my Department, held in Galway in early October specifically on the topic of special areas of conservation — SAC — site management, at which farming and conservation groups as well as the European Commission were represented. So much for the allegation of lack of consultation. I do not, however, presume that every farmer feels fully informed on all the implications of SACs for farming practice. I accept there are certain fears in the community, fears that have been fuelled by some less than judicious comments from certain members of the Opposition. That is why I welcome this opportunity to seek to allay those fears and to set out the factual position.

Ba mhaith liom a mheabhrú do Theachtaí go bhfuil an treoir seo sa réimse poiblí le breis agus ceithre bliana anois agus ní cóir go ndéanfadh éinne iontas den méid atá ann. Ba mhaith liom geallúint a thabhairt freisin go ndéanfar iarracht deileáil le haon éiginnteacht atá fós i measc an phobail feirmeoireachta -rud atá idir lámha ag mo chuid oifigigh agus na nithe seo uile á bplé acu le hionadaithe na bhfeirmeoirí.

I recently published a message to farmers and landowners acknowledging their many legitimate concerns about the proposed designation of NHAs and SACs and stressing that I am willing to respond to them to the greatest extent possible, while at the same time meeting my own obligations as Minister responsible for the conservation of the natural heritage. I have great sympathy for them. At the end of one meeting they said that they believed progress had been made in a whole range of areas. I also confirmed that I will publish information which should help to clarify the issues and answer questions for farmers and landowners.

Will that be before or after signing the directive?

Let me turn to the content of these regulations and their implications. I reiterate that SACs and special protection areas — SPAs — for birds are required to be established and protected under the habitats and birds directives. SPAs have been in existence for some time and more than 100 have been designated to date. When the regulations take effect the process of designation of SACs will begin and the sites proposed for designation will be publicly advertised. Every effort will be made to contact individual landowners and users who will be provided with descriptions and maps of the sites proposed for designation and details of the restrictions in farming practices, if any, that arise as a result. Landowners-users will have two months during which they may dispute the scientific basis for proposed designations.

I remind Deputies that the habitats directives only allows scientific bases for disputing these proposals. I, as Minister, do not have discretion to consider economic arguments. I have, however, sought to create as transparent a system of designation as possible. If, for example, a landowner or user disputes the designation he may contact the National Parks and Wildlife Serve stating his grounds. I hope most objections can be resolved at that stage. If the matter is still unresolved to the satisfaction of the landowner-user he may appeal to me as Minister, again only on scientific grounds. I propose, however, to put in place an advisory group to assist me in dealing with such appeals. I propose that such advisory group might consist of three members, a nominee of farming interests, a nominee of conservation interests and my own nominee.

The main question of interest to farmers and their representatives is the impact designations may have on farming practice. The first and fundamental point is that it is not the intention of the directive, and certainly not my intention, to drive farmers off their land——

Hear, hear.

——despite suggestions to that effect from certain quarters.

Including Deputy Hughes.

The Minister of State is driving them off the land.

Farmers have, over generations, by their traditional farming practices, created and maintained the habitats now being protected and without continued farming activity in these areas conservations cannot succeed. In some cases, however, SAC designation will mean that farming practices in the area will be controlled in some way, although in many cases such designation will involve no change to farming practice. Where restrictions are required farmers and landowners can be assured they will be practical and sensible. For example, the conditions applied to blanket bogs, heaths and upland grasslands within SACs-SPAs will be identical to those recently agreed for the rural environment protection scheme — REPS — in NHAs by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltachta, farming organisations, Teagasc and private REPS planners.

Any project or development which could impact on a NATURA 2000 site must be examined and its potential impact assessed. Where a site contains a habitat identified as priority within the terms of the directive, a project which would have a negative impact can be permitted only with the agreement of the European Commission. In other habitats I as Minister can allow projects with negative impacts to proceed only for reasons of overriding public interest. Ministers of the Government, planning authorities and other State bodies must have regard to the provisions of the directive in assessing applications for licences, permits and planning permission.

I turn now to an element of the regulations which is still the subject of discussions with the farming organisations, namely, compensation for changes in farming practices required as a result of SPA or SAC designation. The issue here is appropriate compensation taking into account any loss suffered by the landowner or user — that is on the agenda of tomorrow's meeting. There have been lengthy discussions between my Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry with a view to producing a coherent and equitable package. I am optimistic that agreement on this package can be achieved before Christmas. However, to give plenty of time for these issues to be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties, I am prepared to give an undertaking that these regulations will not come into operation until the beginning of February next year.

Hear, hear.

That would not be done if this debate had not taken place.

It must be patently clear, therefore, that there is no attempt to push through these regulations without giving the opportunity for consultation on issues which have been the source of concern for farmers. The reason I am so sensitive to farming needs is that, unlike those who propose this ridiculous motion, I was reared on a farm.

It has achieved results.

I have always believed that democracy is strengthened, not weakened, by information. This has informed my approach to statements in this House and it is a practice I have sought to honour in my dealings with those who are concerned for and affected by both environmental and cultural issues.

In the context of the habitats directive the first batch of notices containing proposed SAC designations will issue early in February. These will consist, in the main, of sites which host priority habitats such as blanket and raised bogs, turloughs, machair and sand dunes. Farmers will then have a period of two months in which to consider an objection to the designation on scientific grounds.

Mar fhocal scoir i ndáil leis an treoir agus na rialacháin a bhaineann léi, measaim gur fiú a rá arís leis an Teach seo gurbh iad na feirmeoirí féin i mórán cásanna a chruthaigh, tríd a gcuid nósanna feirmeoireachta traidisiúnta féin, na gnáthóga sin a dteastaíonn uainn a chaomhnú anois. Gan comhoibriú gníomhach ó fheirmeoirí, ní éireoidh linn na gnáthóga sin a chosaint amach anseo. The farmers created the very thing we want to protect and their co-operation is vital in bringing it to a happy resolution.

As Minister I am well aware that farmers are concerned about designations and their consequences. It is my policy to keep those affected by environmental designations fully informed at all times and to achieve the maximum possible degree of consultation. I hope that what I have outlined here will allay some of these fears. I reiterate further that restrictions will be imposed only where this is absolutely necessary for conservation. Flexibility will be shown, and compromise reached, to the maximum extent possible. We have arrived at an historic point where farmers are recognised as the custodians of the environment——

They always have been.

——as well as maintaining the traditional role of food production.

I want to address the other proposed legislation referred to in the original motion, namely, the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill and the Bill to give statutory protection to national parks and heritage areas. I assure the House that neither of these is on the back burner.

I think the Minister has turned it off.

The Wildlife (Amendment) Bill is at an advanced stage of drafting and I expect to have it published within a matter of weeks. Similarly, preparation of the Bill to give statutory protection to national parks and heritage areas is progressing and I hope to be in a position to publish this in the middle of next year.

I do not have any hesitation in putting my record before the House as one of unprecedented legislative innovation in the heritage area. I have already put through the House the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1994 and the Heritage Act, 1995——

What happened since 1995?

——which have escaped Deputy de Valera's attention.

She imagined in her air brushing exercise that had been done some years previously so that she could tell further untruths to this House. In addition, the National Cultural Institutions Bill is currently before the Seanad. I suggest this legislative record, with those referred to here tonight, stand well when compared with that of my predecessors from the ranks of the Opposition who previously had responsibility in these areas——

What about a little due modesty?

——and whose neglect I inherited. Molaim an leasú don Teach.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Killeen.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss this matter in the House. I take great exception to the Minister accusing people on this side of the House of not representing farmers.

I did not say that.

The Minister did not say that.

I was reared on a small farm, I still live in a rural community and I have more contact with farmers than the Minister. I am amazed that in all the meetings the Minister attended, he has not attended many public meetings. I refer in particular to the meeting organised by the IFA in Galway on 11 November which highlighted the need for that organisation to have all available information on the question of national heritage areas and the forthcoming proposals on special areas of conservation. I hope the Minister makes some progress in his negotiations, the majority of which have taken place in Mespil Road, but it is important that he attends public meetings on the issues concerned.

In a reply to a question tabled by me last week the Minister used the word "transposition"— he also used it in his contribution this evening. He stated in the reply that the transposition was in its final stage of preparation and that all candidate SACs would be publicly advertised after the transposition occurs. This is the issue that concerns us this evening; what is happening with SACs? The issue was brought to my notice by the IFA at the meeting in Galway on 11 November. I hope the Minister can give us some information in that regard. Mr. Michael Slattery, Deputy President of the IFA, stated at the meeting that 20,000 farmers were involved — 750,000 hectares — and because of their concern there was a need for an answer from the Minister. So far that has not been forthcoming.

The message to all farmers and landowners in the farming supplement of today's Irish Independent is the first time the Minister has indicated he intends to address the three “Cs”. On the issue of compromise in the message the Minister states: “I have indicated my willingness to discuss the constitution of an appeals system and my officials will be talking to farming organisations over the coming weeks in this regard”. That is the first time to my knowledge the Minister indicated that.

The farming organisations have made it clear to us they have not had an indication that the Minister would be willing to compromise.

The Deputy must ask them a question about that.

He talked about consultation and compensation but this is the first indication that the Minister was willing to reach some form of compromise.

No, it was offered a long time ago.

I welcome that as well as the fact that the decision is to be put off until next February, but this is the first indication that there will be an effort by the Minister and his officials to reach some compromise.

Auctioneers have been highlighting the problem of falling land prices——

That is not true, and I am an auctioneer.

——as a result of restrictions in relation to fencing or forestry.

The Deputy is talking to the wrong auctioneers.

We cannot expect land to hold its value if there are to be restrictions in relation to fencing or forestry, and Deputy Ring is well aware of that. In fact, an article in the Irish Farmers Journal stated that one particular farm designated an NHA was selling for less than £700 an acre. These facts were brought to our attention by the IFA and nobody in the Minister's Department has denied them.

At the meeting in Galway the Office of Public Works made an excellent presentation. Its representatives could not answer all the questions but they did their best. They are awaiting some direction from the Minister. There were excellent presentations also from the National Association of Regional Game Councils and from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry.

We have a crisis in agriculture and the Minister would know more about it if he attended public meetings. I meet the Minister of State at most meetings and his presence is welcome. Unfortunately he always says he does not have any money but his heart is in the right place.

Farmers are losing confidence in the Government because of problems created by the BSE crisis and those involving our trade with countries such as Russia, Iran, Libya and Egypt. These proposed regulations regarding NHAs and SACs are the last straw.

Mr. Desmond Crofton, the director of the National Association of Regional Game Councils, stated that the French Government had decided to put a freeze on the national implementation of the habitats directive. I would like the Minister to respond to that. Mr. Crofton quoted from an article published by the Heritage Council. He stated:

The impetus to put in place a range of environmental policies has come mainly from the European Union and not from Irish administrations. Thus, Ireland is reluctantly adopting the environmental policies of its northern European neighbours as a quid pro quo for the economic benefit of membership of the European Union.

I hope Deputy Sargent does not take offence but Mr. Crofton concluded his speech by stating: "Ladies and gentlemen, if we sacrifice our traditions and part of our Irishness in return for EU money, we will be no more than cultural prostitutes with the European Greens as our clients and our own Government as our pimp". That is a very striking comment from the National Association of Regional Game Councils and very strong feelings were expressed at the meeting. The Minister has, perhaps for the first time, decided to give us a little breathing space. I ask him to delay action and to have consultation.

The question of compensation is important. We know there will be extra payments, but farmers from the Minister's constituency in Connemara have asked what will happen after the five years of REPS. There is no indication that there will be further compensation. It is most important that there is willingness to compromise. I hope the Minister has indicated he will do that. If so, this is the first time I have heard him say so and it is the only way we will come to a resolution. Farmers are worried about their future and the many issues facing them and NHAs and SACs would cause further difficulties for them.

Conservation is of fundamental importance to the future of farming and tourism and to our future. This area has proven difficult because we have not been able to reach a balanced outcome in many situations; this is one of them. Sometimes people who are most deeply and genuinely committed to conservation do the most damage. Their actions frequently cause more damage than might have been caused by what had originally offered them. I will not say the Minister always does that, or even that he does so in this instance.

This debate offers an opportunity to strike a better balance. There is a need to set the tone of the debate in terms of improving the Minister's proposals. It will not be possible in the long term to hide behind EU directives in areas such as this. I suspect many people are coming to the conclusion that EU directives are in many instances daft and unnecessary and do not reflect the reality of their lives but rather damage the quality of their lives and undermine their ability to make a living. Ultimately that is the proposition put before us tonight by Deputies de Valera and Lawlor.

We on this side of the House see the manner in which this issue has been approached as negative and damaging. It may undermine the ability of farmers, particularly in the west, to make a living in the traditional way. The sometimes self-appointed protectors of the environment have in many instances ridden roughshod over local people and farmers alike. There is a fear in the farming community, particularly in places where they have had experience of this that people who have conservation as their motto and who may be genuinely concerned have the capacity to do enormous damage. We must look at transposing this directive into regulations in that context. That is the context in which farmers look at it.

We must also look at this directive in the context of the west where smaller landholders feel that neither Government, political leadership nor farming leadership represents their views. The entire issue of conservation and the environment has been hijacked by individual politicians and by entire political parties who have frequently jumped on the bandwagon to achieve their own ends and damage has been done.

Deputy de Valera, who put the motion before the House, the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, who also represents my constituency and the Minister, Deputy Higgins, who is very familiar with it, are aware of what happened in the Burren national park. There are lessons for everybody in what happened there. There are, in particular, lessons for those who genuinely attempt to protect the environment. I heard a member of the Burren action group on local radio this morning berating the Minister's current proposals. For those who do not know, the Burren action group opposed the centre at the national park. It would have considered the Minister to be one of its supporters but that was not the impression given on the radio this morning. The spokesperson for the local community, those who support the centre, was somewhat bemused by the moving goalposts.

Among my neighbours, whom I know very well and whose opinions I am aware of, much damage has been done. They believe their views are considered to be of no value by the Government or by those who put forward strong theories on conservation. They feel not so much ignored as insulted and mistreated. In the context in which those who promote conservation ultimately damage it, I bring forward the example of my own area partly because it is a national park and mentioned both in the proposal and in the amendment but also because it illustrates where we finish up when we take action without adequate consultation with local people who are involved, particularly when we know their views and are seen to ignore them.

The great danger in this instance is that farmers may feel and perhaps already feel that what is involved here will impinge on their ability to make their living, that they will lose part of their income and that will not be adequately compensated. That is a key issue. It is all very well for those of us who are not directly involved to have high ideals about what should and should not be conserved, but these people live in these areas and try to make their living in very difficult circumstances.

The farming community has particular difficulties at the moment in relation to milk quotas, the BSE crisis and the prices they are paid for their produce. The last thing farmers need is the imposition of a regime by an arm of State which further undermines their ability to make a living from their land. It is important the Minister has the opportunity to say this is not intended, to say there is room for consultation, compensation and to set an agenda of realism in relation to the people who are required to make these sacrifices.

People in rural areas who have preserved this great environment up to now feel they have not received credit for it. They feel that they will be left out of the equation in the future. That is why it is a pity all this was not covered in legislation which would have allowed far more opportunity to debate the issues.

As the Burren is a national park it will obviously be affected by whatever Bill is introduced. The Minister would do well to consider leaving this for his successor because, partly through his own fault and partly through the fault of others, the Minister's acceptability in the national parks area is not what it might be.

My achievements are well known, and they will be remembered.

They might be remembered, but for the wrong reasons. Having been born and reared in that community, I know that among the people there a sense of good will existed towards the State until about five years ago. However, this has been undermined. Nobody set out to achieve that, but that is the result, and the more the Minister imposes solutions and ignores the wishes of the people, as he did in this case, the further down the road we will be to confrontation and to losing the good will of the very people who have up to now preserved these areas of importance.

Besides the damage the conservation lobby may have done, albeit unwittingly, damage has been done as a result of allowing a number of EU directives to stack up because nobody was sure how they should be handled. We have been exemplary Europeans in accepting the letter of European law. While most of our European partners showed imagination and fitted directives to their own needs, we have not done that. The Minister may say that is the fault of his predecessors. However, he has been in office for four years, and knew that unless action was taken on these directives the EU would come after us. The EU went after the Spanish in relation to the birds directive, and they were not the only ones; many of our partners have shown scant regard for elements of directives that did not suit them. We could have teased out these directives and reached a resolution which would have better suited the Irish situation. I have no doubt that the various directives on natural heritage areas, special areas of conservation and half a dozen others, could be adequately and perhaps more than adequately adhered to, if they had been publicly discussed. To some extent we have been highlighting the downside of the regulations but there may be some advantages, even in the short term. In the overall scheme of things in terms of conservation there certainly will be a huge bonus some time in the future in doing what is best for the environment, perhaps not for us, but for the people who come after us, but it cannot be done by trampling on the people who currently conserve the environment, the farming people who have looked after the land for generations and who, unlike the rest of us, depend for their income on it.

Thirty-eight regulations arise from this directive. Some are far-reaching, and not very clear in terms of their long-term implications. I can understand why farmers might be worried, why they might want to know how much compensation will be on offer, and exactly what the implications of this regulation will be. Nowadays people can hardly afford to say they are satisfied that they will have REPS payments for the next four or five years. They need to know that their compliance with Government and EU regulations will not have the effect of undermining the livelihood in the long-term.

Approaching a problem of this magnitude by way of regulation is singularly inappropriate. I have no doubt that the Minister looked at the possibility of drawing up a Bill and had his own reasons for deciding that this is the way to proceed. Already there is strong evidence in places like west Mayo that people are grossly dissatisfied with the manner in which this is being done. I am disappointed that the Minister has not indicated that he will consider introducing legislation rather than regulations, because this issue is bigger than anybody seems to realise and has long-term implications in terms of retaining the good will of the people who will have to implement it.

I mentioned the birds directive which deals with special protection areas. Even for those of us who deal with these matters frequently it is difficult to know exactly what the implications will be. A very large proportion of the Shannon estuary has been or is about to be designated under the birds directive. People living in that area are under the impression that the Government thinks birds are more important than people along the Shannon estuary. There may be places where birds are more important than people, but if one looks at a map of the Shannon estuary one will see that a huge area appears to be designated under the special protection areas. One has to wonder how much common sense was brought to bear when drawing them up, and what the implications for development are.

When one group had finished berating the Minister, a Fine Gael MEP expressed concern about development on the Shannon estuary. He called for the publication of a plan for development in the Shannon estuary which was drawn up at the behest of the former Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds. I had a particular interest in two or three elements of that plan which I had hoped to see implemented. Unfortunately they are not being actively promoted at present. I had to laugh at the idea that a Fine Gael MEP should call for publication and action on this while at the same time special protection areas for birds are being designated on over 80 per cent of an area that the well-meaning MEP would like to see developed.

We are gradually tying ourselves in knots by leaving all kinds of EU regulations until the last minute, and only then implementing by way of legislation or regulation, not having thought through the long-term implications for Ireland as a sovereign State. We have people with the ability to deal with this issue at our own level. Kowtowing to the European Union is not the way to conduct the business of this State. It is, perhaps, a bit late in the day for this directive, but if it is not, I urge the Minister to undertake a complete review of the manner in which conservation and environment directives are transposed into Irish law. That needs to be done urgently. I very much doubt if there is justification for having two thirds of national heritage areas converted into special areas of conservation. That would involve a large amount of territory, affecting very many farmers, and more and more people will be grossly dissatisfied with the manner in which this is being done. In that respect I welcome the tone of the Minister's advertisement and the letter sent to TDs and I hope what it promises will happen. I suspect we would not have seen it were it not for this debate.

It was mooted before we heard from Deputy de Valera.

This was not the first time I have raised it.

Debate adjourned.
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