Vol. 475 No. 1
5 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach if all files in his Department more than 30 years old have been transferred to, and continue to be transferred on an ongoing basis to the National Archives; and, if not, the type of material, if any, which has been withheld. [4284/97]
All files in my Department more than 30 years old have been transferred to the National Archives, except those certified for retention under section 8 (4) of the National Archives Act, 1986.
What steps are being taken to provide more space for the National Archives so that it can fulfil its statutory requirements and obligations?
That is a separate question.
The question is essentially statistical.
Will the Taoiseach indicate the grounds under section 8 (4) of the National Archives Act, 1986, on which certain files are retained in his Department?
I am pleased to find myself in a position of acting as legal adviser to Deputy McDowell. Subsection (4) states that the categories of files which ought to be retained and not made publicly available in the National Archives are ones which would be contrary to the public interest, might constitute a breach of statutory duty on the grounds that they contain information supplied in confidence, might cause distress or danger to living persons on the grounds that they contain information about individuals or might be likely to lead to an action for damages for defamation. Those are the criteria which, in their wisdom, the Members of this House decided should apply when they enacted the legislation in 1986.
I can, however, further sate the Deputy's curiosity by telling him that the Department of the Taoiseach has furnished 21,000 files to the National Archives. A total of 470 files have been retained, apart from 990 personnel files because there is a practice of not supplying personnel files. The rate of transfer of files is quite high and the rate of retention of files is quite low.
Who defines what is not in the public interest? Is it the Taoiseach or the Secretary of his Department? What person actually decides what is not in the public interest?
I do not decide that. I do not go through these files one by one. It is done by an official on a delegated basis. I presume that if there was some really difficult case about which they could not make up their mind, they might ask me but I have not been asked to date.
He has not been consulted yet.
Is there any review process in relation to files which are denied access to the National Archives on grounds of public interest? I know the Taoiseach does not go through them personally, but is there any basis on which the National Archives or the Taoiseach is notified of a decision of this kind being made? In other words, does anybody second guess the official who does this work on a delegated basis? Is the public interest synonymous with the interest of the Department of the Taoiseach on these occasions?
No. It is the public interest in a genuine sense. There is not a corporate interest at the Department of the Taoiseach stretching back 30 years because most of the people who would have been there at that time are no longer in the public or political service.
In preparation for this question I had a look at the titles of some of the files retained, almost all of which are personal files about individuals. The Taoiseach of the day will receive letters making outrageous allegations about people, to which the Deputy, if he received them, might not consider it necessary to reply. However, in the case of an office holder like myself it is necessary not only to reply but to retain them on file even though they may contain statements that are only the fruits of somebody's overheated imagination about somebody else.
The Deputy will understand that even at a remove of 30 years it would not be desirable to put that type of material into the public arena, where outrageous and unsustainable allegations were made about somebody in the course of correspondence with the Taoiseach of the day. I have looked at the files, but I understand that is the type of material that is retained. We have nothing to hide.
We could enjoy reading them.
The Taoiseach should take time out to read them all.
I am glad the Deputy anticipates I will have sufficient time in office to do that.
From now until October.
Which October?
