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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 1997

Vol. 475 No. 2

Private Members' Business. - Prisons Bill, 1997: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I support the Bill which was moved last week by our justice spokesperson, Deputy O'Donnell. I pay tribute to her for the work she has done to bring this matter to political attention. She and Deputy O'Donoghue have sought, not just with the publication of this Bill but through parliamentary questions and contributions in this House, to make the Minister more accountable for the prison service.

Some say we have a liberal prisons policy while others say it is illiberal. However we have no prisons policy or strategy. Many of us may have watched the television series on Mountjoy which concluded last Monday night. We did not need to see that programme to realise our largest prison was in chaos and was unable to cope with the pressures put on it. We did not need to see that film to know that people who go in drug free come out of Mountjoy suffering from drug addiction. Perhaps allowing prisoners to use drugs is part of the political thinking or strategy of controlling the prisoners. The Minister opened up our prisons, almost throwing her hands in the air, to show the chaos there. Many people did not need to have the prisons opened up to the realise that.

It is wrong to distance the criminals and the prisoners from the crimes they have committed. If there was any fault in the production of that programme it was that it dissociated from awful crimes the prisoners and criminals who committed them. Only people who have committed awful crimes go to jail unless there has been a serious miscarriage of justice. There is no point telling an old woman who has been mugged, or a family whose house is constantly being broken into or a person who has been threatened with a syringe that the assailant came from a poor background or that, as the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Deputy Burton, suggested last night, we should understand that they commit crimes because of the economic circumstances in which they grew up. The vast majority of poor people do not commit crimes. I find it objectionable when I hear Labour Party Deputies and a Minister in particular speak about some of these criminals in a way that would almost justify what they have done because of the circumstances in which they grew up.

If, instead of abolishing water charges at a cost of £60 million to save the Minister of State's seat — that was the main reason they were abolished — the Government had spent the money on some of the deprived areas in her constituency, it would have achieved a great deal more than it will achieve to the maintain her Dáil seat in Dublin West. That only became Government policy subsequent to the fright she got in the by-election.

It might not work.

Some 4,000 people are released early from jail every year. Why? Some 4,500 prisoners are let out on temporary release. Why? It costs £45,000 to keep a prisoner in jail and £90,000 to keep one in Portlaoise. Why? It costs £22,000 in Britain and £13,500 in France. It costs £700 a week to keep somebody in an open prison. Why? We have more prison officers than prisoners in Ireland. Why? The reason is we do not have a prison strategy or policy. Until such time as we take the prison service away from the Department of Justice and set it up as an autonomous executive body, with a separate directive, and until we give it targets and monitor its performance, we will not get value for the money the taxpayers currently spend on our outdated prison system which cannot cope.

After the unspeakable murder of journalist Veronica Guerin, we saw action on crime from the Government when it finally agreed to hold the referendum on bail. After the Judge Dominic Lynch debacle, we got a commitment from the Taoiseach that an independent prison and court service would be established within a week. We are still waiting to see the legislation to establish that. If an Opposition party with limited resources can produce such a Bill, then I cannot understand why the Government, with all its backup, has not been able to bring forward this legislation. It is obviously not a priority. The law-abiding people want to see those who commit serious crimes serve their full sentences. They want to see a prison system which can cope with our serious crime problem. Until we have an independent prisons executive we will not achieve what people want us to achieve on their behalf.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Eric Byrne and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Mitchell.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I grudgingly welcome the introduction of this legislation. However, I suspect Deputy O'Donnell's motives for introducing it because the Bill's provisions have already been taken on board by the Government. The Minister indicated that the expert group has been established to make recommendations on the establishment of an independent prisons board on a statutory basis and that its report will be published by the end of the month. The Progressive Democrats are trying to score political points.

The Deputy voted against the same provisions last February.

They should remember that the Whitaker report made this recommendation in 1985 and they were three and a half years in Government after that during which they did not mention establishing it on a statutory or non-statutory basis.

The Deputy has spent five years in Government without doing so.

They have suddenly discovered this report and now they want it implemented immediately, although they know the Government has put the mechanism in place to establish an independent prisons board. It is rich to hear Deputy O'Donnell's remarks about how she would increase the prison population by 50 per cent and reduce the overall cost. This is fairy tale magic wand type politics which cannot be given any credence. In the Seanad recently Senator Honan said——

We ought not to refer to Members of the other House.

A Senator in the other House belonging to the same party——

The Deputy may not refer to the activities of the other House.

That is a shame. In the other House the Progressive Democrats have enunciated further proposals, the cost of which would be significant, while in this House Deputy Molloy proposed that the enormous sum of £23 million should be spent on a group water scheme. They have, at the same time, accused the Government of being spendthrift.

I compliment the Minister for Justice on introducing in the summer of last year, at a cost of £60 million, the most significant package of security measures in the past two decades. She has provided for a drug free zone in Mountjoy Prison and a drug treatment centre in the training unit. She has drawn up plans for a new 60 unit women's prison, the money for which has been provided. A new 400 unit remand prison is to be opened at Wheatfield. It is a scandal that we have no means of separating those who have not been tried from those convicted of serious offences. Extra places have been provided at the Curragh and at Castlerea Prison which is to be expanded, while extra accommodation is to be provided at Limerick Prison.

I also compliment the Minister on allowing cameras into Mountjoy Prison for the first time to produce programmes of quality. These were followed by newspaper articles and live radio interviews. Last summer a Labour Party delegation visited the prison. It was the first party to send a delegation. Every other party should do likewise and on a regular basis.

There is a statutory visiting committee which has been ignored for years.

In the mid-1960s the prison population stood at 400 on average. It now stands at 2,200, which represents a fivefold increases. Its profile has also changed. Instead of petty larceny, prostitution, robbery and assault, the vast majority are now serving sentences for drug related and sexual offences.

The key problem is that it is virtually impossible for a Department as large as the Department of Justice, which is responsible for formulating policy and all other areas of the criminal justice system, including the Garda Síochána and the courts, to run the prison system, given its complexity. It has attempted to do so, however, in a secretive and jealous fashion.

There is a need for a proper management structure which is both effective and accountable. The chief executive officer or director of the proposed independent prison service should have the necessary authority to implement policy. Prison governors should also have a role.

This Bill does not deliver the goods. I, therefore, await the introduction of the legislation announced by the Minister.

Prison reform has never been a particularly popular issue. As far back as 1985, the Whitaker report cognitively analysed the problems of the penal system. Yet, nothing was done. For seven long years, from 1987 to 1994, Fianna Fáil ran the country. For three of those years it was joined by the Progressive Democrats. Yet, it implemented no significant changes in the penal system.

The reality is that the Opposition parties have produced simplistic proposals. When in Government it did nothing. In contrast, the Fine Gael Front Bench and Young Fine Gael produced a detailed penal reform policy. In Government the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, has attempted to address the issue seriously. We have the largest prison building programme since the foundation of the State, involving the provision of around 800 extra places; a review of the operating costs of prisons by a group chaired by the former secretary of the Department of Education, Mr. Declan Brennan; a Government commitment to establish an independent prisons board and extensive measures to tackle the drugs problem in prison. This represents real progress but none of us should be in any doubt that more needs to be done, both inside and outside our prisons.

For a start, nobody should be sent to prison if there is a suitable alternative but, for somebody who must be contained for the good of society, there must be a place. On the number of prison places, while the current investment programme of over £135 million between 1996-9 is most welcome, further expenditure will be necessary. We must face the, reality that most of our prisons are too old and overcrowded to form the basis of a 21st century prison system. Further new prisons on the model of Wheatfield, while expensive to build, are essential.

When the current programme of prison building is complete, a new phase should commence. We need to analyse the facilities we should build and how we will finance them. Ultimately, it is only when we, the legislators, are prepared to give an ongoing financial commitment to prison reform that we will make real progress. Inside our prisons the serious problem of drug taking is being addressed by the ministerial task force but the scale of the problem is frightening. A recent survey showed that over 70 per cent of prisoners in Mountjoy Prison have a history of drug abuse. The figure of nearly 500 drugs seizures in 1996 over a nine week period bears testimony to the scale of the problem. People are going into prison without a drugs problem and coming out with one. There are no easy or cheap solutions to this or other prison problems. The new drug free unit in Mountjoy Prison, with preventative and detention measures in the visiting areas, help, but until we have proper treatment facilities and prevention through education and rehabilitation programmes both inside and outside prisons we will not succeed. Reform will not come cheaply but without it society will eventually explode.

It is appropriate that we debate this issue in the national Parliament in the centre of Dublin because 75 per cent of prisoners in Mountjoy Prison come from just five deprived areas in the capital. For too long penal reform has been viewed as a question of prison and sentencing policy but if we really want to tackle crime and reform the prisons then we must go to the root of the problem. The 1985 Whitaker report clearly stated that much of the crime prevailing in modern Ireland appeared to be related to moral, demographic, social and economic change, especially the transformation of Irish society from being mainly rural to mainly urban and the concentration in the cities of growing numbers of young unemployed.

In the inner cities many young people leave school with no qualification and are condemned to long-term unemployment. Among them are the future inmates of Mountjoy Prison where just 11 per cent of prisoners have had experience of school beyond the age of 16. I hear glib proposals to solve the crime and prison problems and of the need for tax cuts and lower public spending, but I do not hear much talk of social justice and the need to fund programmes to make it a reality. The people in these deprived areas are no worse than people in better off areas. They do not care any less for their children's education and future but, worn down by lack of facilities, employment or hope, some lose their will to live or can only do so with the crutch of drugs which then drag them into crime as the only way to feed their habit. We must break this cycle.

We started that process, in particular, through the £110 million local development programme between now and the end of 1999, for which I have ministerial responsibility. Local development is about empowering local communities in deprived areas. It is about local communities analysing their own problems and proposing community-based solutions in partnership with the State, State agencies and the social partners. These local action plans give the long-term unemployed, the disadvantaged and the early school-leavers a new opportunity. Educational and training opportunities, employment in one to five person enterprises, environmental improvement and estate management training for tenants are the elements of this second chance.

Other initiatives are also under way, such as the £21 million urban programme in north Cork, west Tallaght-Clondalkin, Ballymun-Darndale-Finglas; the £10 million package for demand reduction measures in relation to drugs agreed arising from the ministerial task Force; the initiatives by the Department of Education to target resources at schools in deprived areas; and the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1996, which will allow for better local authority estate management. In two short years great strides have been made but, in truth, much remains to be done and it will not come cheaply.

Money, however, is a relative thing. I hear talk incessantly about the cost of things but rarely about their value. Can we put a price on an old person's peace of mind in an area where crime has been reduced? Can we put a price on the joy of a parent that a child is fulfilling his or her educational dreams? Can we put a price on the satisfaction of a person who gets an honest day's pay for an honest day's work? We can put a price on the cost of keeping a person in prison; it may be as much as £80,000 a year. We can put a price on putting a youth into care in a special school for delinquent young people; it is in the order of £74,000 a year. We can put figures on the lack of educational achievement. Sixty per cent of those attending drug treatment centres in Dublin in 1994 had left school either before the official school-leaving age of 15 or at that age. Would it not make more sense to allocate resources to education now rather than having to pay detention costs later?

We do not live in a society where there is equality of educational opportunity. University, in the recent words of the Provost of TCD, is a no go area for young people in large areas of Dublin's Inner city. Students from low income homes are 18 times less likely to attend university than those from wealthier families. If we really want to stem the flow to our prisons, then we must be relentless in our pursuit of social justice and in tackling the problems of poverty in the ghettos which scar our community. When will the Opposition put the Government under pressure to advance social justice? There has been no sign from the Opposition benches that there is due concern in this regard.

The plans are there. What is needed is to drive them and commit resources to make them a reality. We need to deal with the teacher-pupil ratio, particularly in inner city schools. We need to run home-school liaison and school counselling services on a scale which helps to tackle the problem. We need to build youth and sport facilities along the lines of the sports strategy published by my colleague, the Minister with responsibility for sport, yester-day. We need training programmes and, crucially, we need localised drug treatment facilities. These are the ways to tackle this serious problem.

Progress has been made under this Minister but it is time this House had greater concern for social justice and the value of reform rather than simply its cost. It is time we stopped scoring points off each other on prison facilities. We know the prison system needs to be reformed. The appointment of an independent prisons board is a great start and the Minister for Justice has done a great public service in that regard.

I applaud and support every view expressed by Deputy Mitchell, a member of a different political party. It is interesting how ideas can sometimes merge on the same track.

Like many of the Private Members' Bills debated in this House in recent months, this is pretty flimsy stuff. They will probably get much flimsier as the Deputies opposite gear up for a general election.

There has long been a need for comprehensive prisons legislation which would repeal antiquated legislation dating back as far as 1826 and establish a modern system of prison administration which serves the needs of individual prisoners and society. Unfortunately, this Bill does not come even close to meeting that need. Drafting legislation is never easy for Opposition Deputies and I have long argued for improved research and advisory facilities, but this Bill amounts to little more than a random attempt to push various electoral buttons.

There are two main planks to Deputy O'Donnell's Bill, the first of which is the need for an independent body to run the prisons. That recommendation first surfaced all of 11 years ago in the Whitaker report, which was consigned by successive administrations to the darkest basement in the Department of Justice. The Progressive Democrats had the opportunity to resurrect the Whitaker recommendations during their term in office between 1989 and 1992 but, unfortunately, they funked it.

Democratic Left has long argued for the decentralisation of the Department of Justice, the establishment of separate bodies to run both the courts and the prisons and to administer early release and parole. I am, therefore, delighted that work is proceeding on the establishment of an independent courts service and that an expert working group is currently examining the best way of setting up an independent prisons agency. Deputy O'Donnell's proposals with regard to an independent prison service are welcome but out of date.

This Bill is no more than a rehashing of old ideas, some of which are nevertheless worthwhile. Old ideas, however valid, do not grab headlines and that, essentially, is what the Progressive Democrats are all about. Deputy O'Donnell can never resist playing to the Sunday Independent constituency, that well known school of jurisprudence which regards trial by media or, very often, trial by public opinion, as infinitely preferable to trial by judge and jury. The icing on the cake of this Bill is the proposal for a register of prisoners on temporary release open to inspection by the general public. Every self-appointed vigilante in the country will, if Deputy O'Donnell gets her way, be entitled to know who is on temporary release and, I imagine, where they are living.

Section 15 in its present form is a charter for mob rule. Not only does it give effective sanction to vigilantes but it will also facilitate every gangster in knowing when his turf rivals are free in order to seek retribution and revenge for long held grudges. I feel very strongly about this. Last year in my constituency a young man was beaten to death. He was not on temporary release, but he could have been. The temporary release register envisaged by Deputy O'Donnell would provide aspiring vigilantes with a useful directory for their activities. Simple populism is no substitute for a coherent policy.

The Deputy is one to talk.

This proposal by the Justice spokesperson for the Progressive Democrats is one of the most irresponsible put forward by any Deputy during my time in this House. Rather than legislating for vigilantism, Democratic Left has consistently called for the establishment of an independent parole board which would ensure that early and temporary releases are fully monitored and that the conditions of release are tailored to the history and needs of individuals prisoners. In particular, it is vital to ensure that prisoners are not dumped on to the streets when prison spaces are needed——

As they are now.

——in conditions which may positively encourage them to reoffend.

Successive opinion polls have identified crime as one of the main issues concerning the public. In an election year there is a temptation to get on to the nearest bandwagon, but Democratic Left believes bandwagons go nowhere. We will do all in our power to ensure that Deputy O'Donnell and her colleagues do not get the chance to ride this bandwagon into Government.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Batt O'Keeffe.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

This afternoon we learned of the impending retirement from public life of my colleague the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor. I take this opportunity to wish him well in his retirement and to pay tribute to him for his outstanding commitment the people of Dublin South-West whom he has represented so ably. He and I served as members of Dublin County Council for a number of years and for the past ten years we have served as colleagues here representing the people of Dublin South West. He never displayed bitterness to any of his colleagues and was always very fair, open minded and even-handed in debates with us. He will leave behind him a substantial legacy of good legislation which has been supported inside and outside this House. He has made an outstanding contribution not only in his time as a public representative, but particularly in his time at the Cabinet table. I wish him a happy and result retirement. I know his wife Marilyn, who has supported him so strongly all through his public life, will welcome more of his time in the family home to which he is rightly entitled.

Regarding the Bill, I wish to take up a point made by Deputy Byrne relating to the register of temporary release orders. I can see both sides of the argument on that issue. The public are greatly concerned about the many instances where individuals on temporary release reoffend. There seems to be a view abroad that very little information is available on that aspect of our prison service. There is a great deal of disquiet on the issue generally. Consequently, the matter must be addressed. In so far as Deputy O'Donnell is attempting to address it in this legislation, I support her. Some aspects of it might be amended. People have been very concerned about the issue of parole. I am not sure if we have a right to keep information of that kind from the public, given that the people concerned were brought before our courts, convicted and confined to prison. As that is a very public act, why should be maintain a veil of secrecy over those who are on temporary release? The issue must be addressed and we must be mature enough to live with that information. We should not allow our legislation to be dominated by the thugs and ruffians who would seek to compel us to frame legislation in such a way that they might be able to benefit from it in their illegal practices.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the prison service in general because it has been an issue for a long time. Any Member of the House who engages in a tit for tat confrontation on this issue is letting his or her party down. All of us in this House have questions to answer about the manner in which the prison service has been dealt with. I compliment Deputy O'Donnell and her party on bringing forward this legislation. Second Stage legislation is subject usually to amendment and there is no reason a member of any of the Government parties could not table amendments to this Bill. That is part of the cut and thrust of Committee Stage debate.

This debate provides an opportunity to examine ways by which we can develop and improve the service to meet future needs. The prison service is in poor shape and that has evolved over a number of years possibly as a result of the changeing society in which we live. The substantial overcrowding in our prisons, which has reached a crisis point, is causing great difficulty.

Many speakers in this and other debates have raised the problem of drug abuse in our prisons. It is posing a great difficulty to staff in the management of prisons. There is also the issue of poor facilities for the rehabilitation of prisoners to enable them to return to society as law abiding citizens. That problem must be addressed.

Another issue is the increasing number of prison suicides which cannot be unrelated to the conditions in which prisoners live and possibly to a mixture of drug abuse and other problems and the no hope situation that faces prisoners on their release. We are disheartened with the prison service. Criticisms are raised at meetings, particularly public ones, about its operation, but the problems in our prison service have developed over a number of years. They need to be urgently tackled and will require the expenditure of considerable resources.

Section 6 of Part II addresses the need to assess the requirements for prison and custodial accommodation in the future. This is very important. I am not sure a coherent plan based on accurate information and forecasting of requirements in respect of adult prisons and juvenile detention centres was ever made. This was discussed in the context of the Children Bill, 1996. We do not seem to be able to plan for future needs in this area. This may be because the subject is not popular and does not generate public support unless problems arise in the system.

Another issue which must be addressed is the management of prisons. It seems individual prisons develop their own ethos and code of management and practices can differ greatly from prison to prison. For example, a parallel recently emerged between Mountjoy Prison and its counterpart in Cork. It appears there is easy access to drugs in Mountjoy while the contrary position obtains in Cork. I understand there are differences in the way the populations of the respective prisons are managed. I accept there may be different pressures in Cork, but the authorities in that prison appear to have managed to restrict the availability of drugs.

Prisons seems to exist in isolation from each other and the Bill seeks to co-ordinate the operation of these institutions under a centralised system. Further development and the provision of additional resources would make a considerable contribution to the orderly management of the prison system and facilitate the imposition of similar regimes in our prisons. Management is extremely important because there have been significant criticisms of individual regimes. It is not easy to manage a prison if it is overcrowded and there is a serious problem with the availability of drugs. I understand the difficulties of front line staff who face danger during the course of their work. However, they do an outstanding job which is a credit to them.

The appointment of a director to the prison service is a good inclusion in the legislation. Many annual reports are issued too late to enable corrective action to be taken, but the report of the director will have to be laid before the House in the first three months of the following year, and this will draw early attention to any deficiencies in the service.

The question of rehabilitation and the action that can be taken in respect of the prison service must be addressed. This can only be done if there is an orderly prison system which is properly managed, resourced and maintained. We must also address the purpose of imprisonment. What do we expect to gain from incarcerating individuals in our prisons? Some sections of society might suggest that we lock people up and throw away the key but I do not subscribe to that philosophy. Society has a duty and a responsibility, through its prison system, to attempt to rehabilitate as many prisoners as possible. I accept there are circumstances where little progress can be made. However, the vast majority of prisoners can be rehabilitated. This requires an orderly regime, resources and plans on how to effect such an improvement.

Recent efforts to improve the prison system are insufficient and haphazard. Those who work with prisoners both in prison and when they are released have criticised the fact that no account is taken of prisoners who on release are left to their own devices, must try to fend for themselves, obtain accommodation and return to the straight and narrow. Part of the prison system's remit should be to help prisoners when they are released. The last thing we need is individuals continuing to offend and re-entering the prison system. The objective of the prison service should be to rehabilitate prisoners, where possible, and to link with health, education and employment agencies to co-ordinate assistance and help for those released from incarceration. Otherwise people released from prison will re-offend and be incarcerated again because of the pressures involved or their inability to cope with outside life.

This Bill seeks to address a number of these issues. I am sure Deputy O'Donnell would be the first to admit that it does not address all of the issues. Some of the criticisms of the Bill, particularly those by Deputy Eric Byrne, are unfounded and introduced language that has no place in a debate on prison issues. Such criticism does not help the prisoners, the prison system or those who work in prisons. When a political party introduces well researched legislation of this kind which can be improved — as is the case with the bulk of legislation that comes before the House — it should be taken in the spirit in which it was intended.

The Bill aims to centralise the prison service, co-ordinate the provision of prison facilities and ensure that a different approach may be taken with prisoners to give them some chance to avoid re-offending and returning to the prison system. That is extremely important. These and other issues are referred to in the legislation, which has a part to play in the development of the prison service. It will not be the last legislation introduced to deal with this issue but at least it is an attempt to grapple with the problem, once and for all. If it so wishes, the Government is free to introduce amendments on Committee Stage. It would not be the first time that happened.

In dealing with prisons one must refer to the cancellation of the prison building programme and the consequences of that action in the overall context. This set the scene for an upsurge in criminal activity in 1995 when we witnessed an increased number of larcenies, robberies, burglaries and savage attacks on the elderly. At that time, Fianna Fáil's spokesperson, Deputy O'Donoghue, stated that crime was spiralling out of control and he was accused of scaremongering by the Rainbow Coalition. The problem was that the ideal of punishment for crime had been eroded. This meant that prison doors were more open than even before. The rights of victims became less important than those of criminals, particularly to some members of the Labour Party.

There is no doubt that criminals became more daring. They were aptly christened "the untouchables" because they were untouchable. When Fianna Fáil called for a bail referendum the Tánaiste initially refused, even though crime was rampant and even though 1,300 prisoners breached their conditions of temporary release from Mountjoy Prison. The Rainbow Coalition did not want to deal with criminals who concluded they could continue their criminal ways. The murder of a member of the Garda Síochána was abhorrent. At that stage everybody thought crime had reached its zenith and we could not take any more. The Government adopted Fianna Fáil's Proceeds of Crime Bill; senior members of the Government said its introduction was the high point in the Government's career and took it unto themselves as if it were their very own.

There is no doubt there has been an immense amount of bungling within the Department of Justice since this Government took office. It has been disconcerting, alarming and unsustainable. "Don't read your letters, Mrs. Owen" could have been the title of a song about the Judge Lynch episode written on the basis that the Minister could not take any more bad news. That episode spurred the Government into doing something tangible about crime.

Any fair assessment of the number of prison places to be provided will still leave us with not enough places in the final analysis. Even with the provision of the promised 180 places at Castlerea, the addition to Limerick of 55 and 68 in the Curragh for sex offenders, there will still not be enough and offenders will continue to be allowed out early. The governors of the prisons and the prison officers feel they are subject to crisis management. They cannot run their prisons in a planned and co-ordinated way. For that reason the Progressive Democrats Bill, which looks for proper planning and co-ordination in the prison service, is welcome. However, every Garda station has bundles of warrants, all of which are unexecuted because there are not enough prison places if the people were arrested. Gardaí are deciding to exercise just one warrant because they know the prisons do not have the space and that the prisoners will be released back on the streets almost as soon as they are brought in.

Crime, unfortunately, is on an upward spiral and this is a problem for people who are trying to govern and manage prisons. I understand that 30 to 40 people are released from Mountjoy in any one day. Offenders see no reason to pay fines or give up on petty crime because their chances of getting an early release are very high. It makes sense to them, therefore, to continue with crime.

Prison officers have been criticised about the level of overtime, which is exceptionally high, but people must realise that prison officers have no option but to work overtime if they are asked to do so. Now that the Minister of State is here let me remind him that about two years ago the Civil Service advertised and held exams with a view to recruiting prison officers, but nobody was called for interview. It is my understanding that 3,000 or 4,000 people sat that exam, all of whom are waiting patiently for recruitment. It has not yet happened. Can the Minister of State give us an idea what will happen in regard to these people who want to be recruited to the prison service? A number of promotions have been made over the past two years. In many cases the people who have been promoted have been transferred to other prisons, but they have not been replaced in the prisons from which they were transferred. It is vital that the Minister of State explain categorically his position on recruitment.

Much has been said about the privatisation of prisons. I have yet to be convinced that privatising prisons will result in a better prison service.

The privatisers are over there.

The buildings, not the management, as the Deputy knows well.

Prison governors in the UK wonder at their responsibility, their role and the co-ordination of their activities. We have heard about escapes while prisoners are taken to and from the courts, but when it comes to the question of responsibility, there is a major question mark about where that responsibility lies. The Exchequer cannot continue to plough money into prison building programmes. Over the past five years there have been calls from building consortiums to take over the building of prisons on a build and lease back basis. This is something that should be seriously examined by the Exchequer in any planning programme for the prison service.

There is a perception that there are often cost overruns in planning prisons. It is speculated that in drawing up prison plans discussions often take place with lay people who may not know the intricacies of what is required within prisons; we find that during a building programme additional requirements are added to contract, and this adds enormously to the overall cost. In looking at the privatisation of building prisons it is important to set parameters for proper planning and control and that we know exactly what is required within the prison service to ensure that the woeful waste of the past will not be a feature of the future.

Deputy O'Donoghue indicated that in drawing up structures for prison administration certain key issues need to be addressed. If a new regime is being instituted one has to ask if it will improve upon the existing regime, if it will eliminate overcrowding, if it will improve morale and working conditions and the overall relationship between prison staff and prisoners. More fundamentally, the question arises of the powers and responsibilities relating to prisoners that would remain with the Minister for Justice. These issues concern the efficiency and rationale of a new authority.

One of the major issues which a new prison authority would have to address is the high incidence of prison suicide. Does it stem from a lack of support facilities in prisons? Is the relationship between prison officers and prisoners as it should be? In November 1996 the Minister indicated that the probation and welfare services would be placed under the control of the new prisons authority. The Irish Commission for Justice and Peace rightly asked if that was appropriate. Those services would be more appropriately placed under the responsibility of the new courts authority.

There is a lot of work to be done in examining the structure of society. Prevention is better than cure. School class sizes and the level of resources being put into areas with high crime levels are just two of the issues that arise in this regard. All the issues must be addressed together. We cannot continue to build prisons without tackling the major social issues that need to be addressed.

It must be obvious to anyone who listens to this debate that this Bill is not a serious effort at law or prison reform. It is intended as a cynical vehicle to indulge in baseless propaganda. The last speaker indicated the extent to which this is the case by making baseless accusations. The prison building programme was not cancelled, as the Deputy has been told many times.

Come off it. The Minister of State should read the records.

What would this Bill achieve? It has been claimed that it would force the Government to provide sufficient prison accommodation. Where is that provided for in the Bill? The Bill states that the Minister "may" provide such prisons as are reasonably necessary.

I will tell the Minister of State the story on that.

The Minister for Justice already has all the legal powers she needs in this regard and, as she pointed out on in her contribution to this debate, the provision in section 5 of the Bill would not secure one extra prison place.

It has been claimed that the Bill would create a new management structure for the prisons. However, as the Minister for Justice pointed out and Deputy O'Donoghue in effect agreed with her, it leaves unanswered a host of important questions about how this new structure would operate in practice. There is so little detail in the Bill about a new management structure that it is virtually meaningless. It has been claimed that the Bill is being put forward in the context of the need to reduce costs in the Prison Service. Where does it do that? During the debate we did not hear one specific proposal on how one penny was to be saved. Instead we heard a combination of sweeping statements, pious aspirations and platitudes.

We recognise that there are problems with the prison system. They have not developed overnight. They did not begin two years ago when this Government took office. Rather, they have been present under successive Fianna Fáil and Progressive ments and under the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats Government. It would be fraudulent to claim that the problems could be tackled in any way by the Bill before this House this evening. Thankfully, the Government has taken substantial and effective action to address these problems.

Prison accommodation will not be created by a spurious legislative power. Building prisons costs a great deal of money and one cannot escape that fact. However, it was because the Government recognises the importance which attaches to this matter that it has undertaken the most comprehensive prison building programme since the foundation of the State. It will provide over 800 extra places. That is how the problem of the revolving door — which was revolving for a very long time before this Government came into office — will be tackled.

I noted that Deputy Batt O'Keeffe spoke about privatisation and he had the effrontery to look at me when doing so. He should have been looking at the Progressive Democrats Deputies.

What ever happened to Fine Gael?

At least we are honest and up-front.

Is there no role for the private sector in building prisons?

The suggestion that there should be an independent prisons board or agency has been around for more than a decade but it was this Government that decided to establish one.

When was that? It was after the Judge Lynch débâcle.

We decided comparatively recently to do so and immediately put in train the necessary steps to implement the decision. This is not a straightforward matter and it gives rise to complex issues which have to be addressed effectively if the new agency or board is to be in a position to fulfil its role effectively. That is why the Minister for Justice established an expert group, under the chairmanship of Mr. Dan McAuley, to advise her on the detailed aspects of setting up a new prisons administration. That group has made substantial progress on its work and its report will be available shortly. That is the sensible way of going about it.

Another group with expertise from within and outside the public service has been studying the question of prison costs. Once again, very complex issues arise which are being tackled in a sensible way. This process is in no way helped by those who make sweeping claims about inefficiency but offer no specific suggestions as to how savings might be achieved.

While it is, of course, important to ensure that our prisons are run efficiently, is anyone seriously expected to believe the claim by Deputy O'Donnell's party that they will be able to provide all the extra prison places necessary without incurring additional expenditure? I listened with great interest to an interview on "Morning Ireland" last week or the week before when the question was put to her continuously as to how she would cut down on the cost and at the same time provide extra prison spaces.

I was not given a chance to answer it.

I listened with amusement to the various ways in which she tried unsuccessfully to get away from that question. It still remains a fundamental question which, sooner or later, she will have to answer. The Minister for Justice has adopted an unprecedented policy of openness in relation to prisons.

She has nothing to lose.

It was a pity she did not open her envelopes.

We have been criticised for lack of openness yet when the Minister goes out of her way to be open she is again criticised.

It is too late.

The first week the Minister was in office journalists were invited to the Department of Justice — the first time this had ever been done. They were amazed at this new practice which symbolised the determination of the Minister for Justice for openness in respect of this and other matters.

That is all that remains now.

She has continued that practice from that day to this. A combination of the television programme "The Joy" and the reports on other prisons which have appeared in the media in recent weeks will give people a chance to judge for themselves what is going on in our prisons.

There is no sign of the Minister.

As with any organisation there are things to admire and things to criticise. Above all people will appreciate more fully the complexities which arise and see them for what they are, simplistic so-called solutions which Deputy O'Donnell's Bill represents. The record will show that this Government faced up squarely and effectively to the problems in prisons. That this was long overdue is a matter which Deputy O'Donnell or Deputy O'Donoghue should be in a better position to explain than I. I urge the House to reject as wholly inadequate and unhelpful the Bill before us.

It is clear from the Minister's demeanour — not to mention the colour of his face — that he is deeply uncomfortable discussing our Private Members' Bill. The Government is also deeply uncomfortable in having to account to Dáil Eireann and the citizens for presiding over a prison system which is in chaos.

The Minister for Justice decided not to hide behind the expert group, which is examining this matter, and to allow the television cameras into Mountjoy as she has nothing to lose. She is on the last lap. She has nothing to hide because it has all been exposed. During the past two years Deputy O'Donoghue and I have tabled questions and held the Minister to account but it has been a shameful experience. It has been revealed that we have a costly shambles of a prison service which is the most expensive in the western world. It costs £12 million per year to run our prisons, £2 million per week, and it does not work.

Our prison service is not fit for the purpose for which it was intended. It does not deter, rehabilitate or keep prisoners inside jail. They have been sentenced in public by our courts. They have been prosecuted in public by the Garda and our authorities and every day 50 are released to make space for more convicted prisoners. On that alone, which is admitted by the Government, the Government is unfit to rule.

I regret I have caused such discomfort to the Government. Clearly it is happy to have the media discuss the appalling situation in our prisons because it has abdicated responsibility at this stage. The Minister is in a perpetual flight from her responsibilities not only on prisons but on the total mismanagement of her brief as Minister for Justice. During the past two years in the area of criminal justice the Government has only responded to political calamities as they occurred. Following the Dominic Lynch fiasco we had prison reform. In February 1996, prison reform was included in our Private Members' Bill which was voted down by the Government. After the Dominic Lynch fiasco, hey presto, the Government would provide for prison reform and a new prison authority. We welcomed that because we had been calling for it for two years.

We have led the debate on prison reform, the need for which has been denied by the Left in particular. I want to respond to the Labour Deputies who contributed to this debate. Throughout those contributions there was a denial of the need for prison reform because of its dangerous moral confusion which it peddles in the course of the socialist premise which is that criminals are ultimately victims to be treated with the same political, legal and social response as the victims of crime. I do not buy that. Perhaps criminals come from a disadvantaged background but it is dangerous for the Government and the socialist parties to send the message to the poor and disadvantaged that they have a licence to be criminals. It is morally dangerous and confuses the difference between right and wrong. After five years of the Left in Government there is moral confusion about what is right and wrong and how to deal with it. It sends out a wrong message that criminal classes come mainly from the poor. Statistically that is correct but it is an insult to the thousands of poor people who for many years have not turned to crime because they are not criminals. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. It is imperative that we deal with both but it is wrong to postpone law and order for the sake of examining the root causes of crime. A good Government can do both. The Government has been paralysed by the conflict between the parties of the Left and Fine Gael. Recently the Taoiseach admitted Fine Gael has no policies which are different from those of the parties of the Left with which it shares Government. Nowhere has that been more pathetic and dangerous than in the incoherent approach given to criminal justice and penal reform.

The Minister boasts about a new openness and referred to a cynical response from this side of the House. It is clear this new glasnost is a totally cynical spin-doctored exercise to allow the Minister to abdicate her responsibilities. The most remarkable part of this new openness or glasnost is the complete absence in the whole process of the Minister for Justice. She is leaving it to the governor of Mountjoy, a most remarkable man, to manage the chaos because the Department of Justice and the Minister for Justice who has political responsibility for the running of our prisons, has left him to explain the chaos in the prison system and put the best foot forward. He knows there has been woeful waste in the massive expenditure in the prison service in the past five years with nobody accountable for it. That is why we have proposed an executive prison services agency to inject accountability. Nobody knows who is responsible for the massive waste.

The Minister of State referred to how the costs could be reduced. I will tell him how to do this. Over the past three years £53 million has been paid to prison officers in overtime, and this at a time when there are more prison officers than prisoners. There can be no justification for this expenditure in any management terms. The overtime budget is overshot every year, yet the person with political responsibility cannot give any justification for this mismanagement. Nobody blames the prison officers as most of their overtime is compulsory. It is simply a case of bad management. The management system needs to be totally reformed.

This statement by the Minister proves he does not understand the issue or how to ensure good value for the massive amounts of money spent on the prison service.

I did not say that.

It costs approximately £45,000 per year to keep a prisoner in an Irish prison, whereas the cost in England is approximately half and is £13,000 in France. This difference in cost cannot be justified on any management grounds.

The Government was happy to preside over such a system until the Judge Dominic Lynch affair when it had to pull something out of the hat fast while on the run from the public. There is nothing as reforming as a Government on the run from the public. Following this affair the Government capitulated on a range of measures dealing with the bail laws, the right to silence etc. which it had voted down a few weeks previously. The Government Whip agreed to all the proposals put to him by the Opposition Whips following the murder of Jerry McCabe and the obvious escalation in organised crime as evidenced by the murder of Veronica Guerin.

The Government is mortified by this debate. The Labour Party described the Bill as "shabby" while Democratic Left described it as "flimsy". One would not expect anything different from the socialist parties in Government who are bankrupt in terms of how to deal with crime and lawlessness and are paralysed by moral confusion on how to deal with criminals — because they come from disadvantaged areas they believe they must be treated like victims.

The electorate has lost confidence in the Government's ability to deal effectively with law and order. If the prison service, which is supposed to be the end of the cycle in the criminal justice system, does not function properly then the rest of the system will be undermined. This includes the work of the courts and the Garda. The judgments dispensed by the courts are being set at naught by decisions made in private by civil servants. It is a scandal that the people who manage the prison service make telephone calls every day to ensure that 50 prisoners are released because there is no space for them. Another irony is that approximately 1,400 people are unlawfully at large. These people have absconded from open jails, broken the terms of their so-called temporary release bonds and otherwise escaped from prison. As far as I know, none of the 200 people who absconded from open prisons last year has been captured. However, even if they were captured there would be no space for them in prison. On that basis alone, the Government is unfit to govern.

Reference was made to the prison building programme. Over the past year the Government has managed to cobble together approximately 150 prison places. However, this is only a drop in the ocean given that we need to increase the number of places by 50 per cent in order to meet the present demand, not to mention the additional places which will be required when the people unlawfully at large are captured and kept on remand under the bail legislation. We are in breach of our international obligations in that we do not have a remand facility.

The Deputies who visited Mountjoy Prison were appalled by the inhuman conditions. These include overcrowding and a sheep dip medical service. In one case a young man in a padded cell had only a blanket to cover him. It costs a fortune to run this prison, yet we are getting nothing for it. A basic requirement of prisons is that they have the capacity to keep prisoners for the duration of their sentence. However, this is not happening. I will not refer to rehabilitation as it is a forgotten dream. The prison service is not fit for the purpose for which it was established, yet the Government presides over it without even blushing.

Government Deputies said there was no problem with the prisons and that my party was merely looking for headlines by hyping up the crime problem. The Minister for Justice claimed that crime was not a problem and that we were jumping on the bandwagon. My colleague in Democratic Left, who was very worried about the temporary release system, was horrified that the Bill proposed the establishment of a register of temporary releases. I am amazed that he should have been so horrified by this proposal. The temporary release system, which is known as "shedding", is an invisible decision-making process under which prisoners are released without any means of ascertaining whether they break the law while on release. The term "temporary release" is a lie as it really means unconditional and unsupervised perpetual release. This is a scandal. By failing to acknowledge that it is undermining the entire criminal justice system the Government is not fit to govern.

The Minister's attempts to engage in a token glasnost are a joke.

I am referring to a new concept called glasnost——

That is passé, it is a long time since we had that.

——under which television cameras are allowed into prisons to film the chaos over which the Government is presiding.

Where has the Deputy been?

The Deputy is out of date.

Administrations usually adopt this concept on entering office in an effort to show their willingness to change and to be open, transparent and accountable. However, this Government has adopted the concept on the way out of office. The public are not fooled by this.

I thank the Deputies who participated in this debate, which the Government would much prefer had not taken place. For that reason alone I am glad to put the question to a vote.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 59; Níl, 66.

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bhamjee, Moosajee.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Broughan, Thomas.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Walsh, Éamon.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Molloy and Keogh; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and E. Walsh.
Question declared lost.
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