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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 1997

Vol. 475 No. 5

Priority Questions. - Computer Skills.

Helen Keogh

Question:

7 Ms Keogh asked the Minister for Education the steps, if any, she intends to take to alleviate the crisis in third level education which is resulting in those training for the computer and allied industry having to leave Ireland to gain suitable qualifications. [5396/97]

Mary Coughlan

Question:

9 Miss Coughlan asked the Minister for Education the manner in which her Department intends to respond to the skills shortage in the Irish computer industry; and the role Irish universities, regional technical colleges and private third level colleges will play in meeting that shortage. [5303/97]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 9 together.

I have already taken a number of steps to increase the supply of appropriately qualified computer graduates from third level colleges. I have allocated 1,800 places to the computer science area under the joint public/private sector £60 million capital initiative. This represents 29 per cent of the total of 6,200 additional places under the initiative. The other places under the initiative are for agreed areas of priority manpower needs, for example in science, engineering, mathematics and business studies.

I have also increased the number of places on one year postgraduate programmes in computer applications open to those with suitable primary degrees. The output in 1997 from this one year programme, including those under the advanced technical skills programme, will be over 800. It is planned to increase this output to 1,250 in 1998. Numbers can be increased further in subsequent years to the extent necessary.

In the current academic year I have also approved a range of new courses in the Dublin Institute of Technology/RTC sector in computing and associated disciplines, software engineering and multimedia applications development. The Government has also recently approved the establishment of a steering committee, chaired by the chairman of the Higher Education Authority, to begin a bidding and negotiation process with educational and training institutions. The aim of the committee is to identify the most cost effective way of providing 1,000 additional software graduates and 750 technicians per annum.

The committee will urgently examine all the viable possibilities for meeting this requirement. The committee's report will then be considered by Government in determining the best strategy. While I would not wish to pre-empt the work of the committee, it appears likely that the major contribution to addressing the skills needs in this area will come from the publicly funded third level institutions with an established record in providing appropriately qualified personnel.

Is the Government serious about its industrial investment policy? There appears to be no integration in that regard between the Department of Enterprise and Employment and the Department of Education. Is the Minister not aware of the boom in the computer industry? Why are we only reacting now to what has been known for many years? Will the Minister agree a great deal of discussion must take place between the Departments on this issue? Have any discussions taken place in that regard? Will the Minister agree it is necessary to increase the number of places available for computer studies as a matter of urgency? Last year over 2,500 students applied for computer studies but only half of those obtained places.

I do not agree with the Deputy. A skills group was established by Forfás to identify the skills needs of industry and how they can be responded to in a more systematic way.

The Minister had a report four years ago from the IDA.

The Deputy should listen to the information I am giving. This group is chaired by Professor Frances Ruane of Trinity College and includes representatives of the industrial development agencies, FÁS, the Departments of Enterprise and Employment, Finance and Education as well as the Higher Education Authority. That group has an ongoing brief to advise the Government, but if we are to increase the pace at which we create job opportunities, we must meet our requirements in the medium and long-term, and I have every confidence we will do that. I have already put in place initiatives that will result in a positive outcome at the end of this academic year.

In contrast with the miserable record of previous Governments, this Government has been very successful in attracting exceptional job opportunities, particularly for graduates. On the basis of advice from the skills group, the Department of Education, in conjunction with the Department of Finance, the Department of Enterprise and Employment, whose success in attracting jobs is worth admiring, and the development agencies which sell Ireland on the quality of our graduates, responded with an initiative, based on a decision of 11 December 1996. A report will be made available on the continued availability of sufficient numbers of high quality graduates and skilled persons in the workforce. A committee was established to put in place a system that will allow us to identify the institutions of education which will respond to immediate needs.

The shortage of computer skills is also evident in other countries. The pace of change and development in industry has increased the need throughout the world for people with skills in technology. The US recently identified the need for 195,000 extra engineers each year, but their colleges produce only 35,000 engineers per year. We want to be in a position to respond to requirements. A decision was made to put in place a negotiation process involving education and training institutions with a view to identifying the most cost effective way of providing 1,000 software places and 750 technician places per annum in addition to the extra places that have been provided.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

As we are past time for priority questions I will hear supplementary questions from other Deputies in respect of Question No. 9.

Some people must have been sleeping when the skills committee carried out its deliberations. What meetings did the Minister have with the heads of universities and regional technical colleges to address the immediate problem? Will she agree that lack of investment in research and development has led to a shortage of graduates for industry?

I repeat we have been successful in attracting job opportunities for highly qualified graduates and technicians and I have every confidence that success will continue. Given the present favourable conditions and the quality of our education system, we will not go back to the good old days when jobs were lost. The developments made as a result of the successful management of the economy by the Government will continue. Under the advance technical skills programme, a post graduate programme,——

That has been ongoing for some time.

——the numbers will be increased. Negotiations have taken place between the Higher Education Authority and the universities.

Every time we put questions to the Minister for Education she repeats herself because she does not know what she is talking about. She is unable to respond to the queries raised.

She is a good teacher with a difficult pupil.

The Minister of State was never in this class. I asked the Minister what meetings she had with the heads of universities and regional technical colleges, not what is ongoing; we are aware of that.

The committee chaired by the Higher Education Authority will identify future places to be created.

The Minister has not met them. She should show some leadership.

I established a committee to do that job and I take it Deputies are concerned that the remit of that committee will be met. I thank those who agreed to serve on the committee. Under the chairmanship of the Higher Education Authority a process will be put in place to ensure the extra places identified are available.

Is the Minister aware the IDA is trying to attract this type of industry and that one of the methods of doing so is by highlighting the fact that we have a highly educated workforce? Why are we only now planning for a process that should have been put in place, and was requested by the IDA a number of years ago? That is what I mean by policy integration. Does the Minister listen to anybody?

I apologise for repeating myself, but a skills group which is representative of various Departments, identifies the skills required to respond to the influx of foreign and national investment in job opportunities. Extra places have been made available through the ATS and the new courses approved for the Dublin Institute of Technology-RTC sector. A number of places were made available under the various initiatives. The success can be measured by the high quality of jobs achieved by graduates, and they are accountable for that success. Extra people will be required in the computer, language and technician areas and, in conjunction with the Departments of Finance and Enterprise and Employment, I established a committee to ensure that when the skills are needed the necessary graduates will be qualified. I will come back to the House and report on the success of that initiative. This is a successful policy and there is no shortage of job opportunities for graduates.

We are talking about graduates, not job opportunities.

The Minister has added two more committees to the myriad committees established in the Department. Is it any wonder there are no hard and fast decisions and no foresight in the Department? Will the Minister agree this is fire brigade action?

Four years ago I read a report by the IDA which pointed out that there would be a shortage of graduates to meet the demands of industry. Nothing happened since then and we are now told a committee is being established. The Minister has done nothing to ensure that universities respond to the demands of industry. Last year 34 per cent of students from one of our universities graduated in the Arts compared with 6 per cent in engineering.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is Question Time Deputy.

What about the lead-in time for industries? The possible shortage of graduates was one of the reasons Siemens was lost to Cork. A degree takes a four year lead-in time, a diploma takes three years and a certificate two years. Is the Minister telling us she can address the skills shortage problem by establishing a committee. She does not even know when that committee will report? There is an immediate shortage of skills in this House. Under any guise, the Minister has been derelict in her duty to co-ordinate industry and her Department.

I have not been unsuccessful. The success can be measured by the number of additional places as a result of programmes I initiated. In co-operation with the institutions, an innovative programme was initiated last year to allocate extra places to the public sector. We signalled to the institutions where extra places were required. There appears to be a reluctance on the part of Deputies to listen to the information I am giving them.

What about the lead-in time?

If the Deputy does not wish to listen, the information will be on the record.

It is on record that we do not have enough graduates.

We have jobs for the graduates we are producing. We are producing more targeted areas for graduates. We have put in place a postgraduate programme which by the middle of the year will have produced extra graduates. We have also initiated new courses in the Dublin Institute of Technology-RTC sector that will address computing and associated disciplines, software, engineering and multimedia applications. Those courses are in train.

It is a late conversion.

We are being advised on the areas where graduates are required. This interesting initiative will respond in a cost-effective manner to the need for extra graduates. The three relevant Departments are co-operating on this matter and the committee will target places to ensure the shortages identified by the Deputy do not occur. There will be graduates for the jobs we are identifying.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We have expended a great deal of time on this question. Other Deputies are waiting patiently for their questions to be taken. Could we expedite matters? I call Deputies Martin and Quill, with a request for brevity.

This is an important issue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is also important that the Chair has regard to the requirements of other Deputies.

The skills shortage represents the single greatest strategic failure of the Government in terms of industrial education planning. It is extraordinary that the Minister has not met the heads of universities or the directors of regional technical colleges to develop a national coherent plan to deal with these shortages. Does she accept the figure of 1,750 places is an underestimate of what is required in the marketplace? The 1,250 additional places announced last year in the computer area has not proved sufficient and neither will the figure of 1,750 for the next academic year.

In regard to Question No. 9, does the Minister see a role for private sector third level colleges in assisting public sector colleges to meet the skills shortage? It is time for leadership from the Minister, she should not ask a committee to do her work. The Government should adopt a hands-on approach to this matter. Because of its capacity to attract industry in the future this is the single most important issue facing the country. The Minister said there are job opportunities, but there are no graduates to avail of them. The Minister must take responsibility for this scandal.

In regard to private colleges, no possibility is closed off in terms of investing in additional places. A total of 4,000 students attend private commercial colleges. That sector is unregulated except for courses approved by the National Council for Educational Awards. The need to regulate the sector in terms of guaranteeing the quality of courses and the standing of institutions and protecting the financial investment for student and parents is highlighted in the White Paper, Charting our Education Future. The regulation of any sector of education is referred to TEASTAS, the national certification authority. Pending the establishment of TEASTAS on a statutory basis and the introduction of control procedures, we should not automatically look to the private sector. We will look to the sector that has been the success story of the 1980s and the 1990s, the educational system. The success of graduates in the State system has guaranteed them employment prospects at home. We hope to have even more graduates available to fill the greater number of jobs coming on stream. The success that has resulted in current investment has been based on the State system of education, the regulated system.

When the Minister recently appointed an expert body to make recommendations on the upgrading of the regional technical colleges, why did she not appoint a representative of industry to the board? Will she acknowledge regional colleges tend to tailor-fit their graduates for job opportunities in the market place? Does she agree it is crucial that regional colleges, and the bodies that shape their future policy, incorporate a voice from industry in their decision making process? When setting up that body the Minister missed an important opportunity to close the gap between industry and education. Is it too late to add a representative of industry to the board of that expert group?

The reply to a later question deals in more detail with this matter. The skills group to consider the overall needs of the computer software area was established by FÁS. That group includes representatives of FÁS, the Departments and the HEA. I am confident that the quality of the advice available in the existing committee will help us identify the needs of this area.

There is an opportunity to reflect the partnership of the community involved in education with the specific composition of the boards of the regional technical colleges and the universities when the composition of their governing bodies is changed by the universities legislation. The involvement of local industry will be available to the colleges and, as we assign places and make recommendations nationally, we must have access to information as the Deputy feels we should.

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