Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1997

Vol. 475 No. 6

Adjournment Debate. - Appointment of Deputy State Pathologist.

Mr. O'Donoghue

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe and I for a considerable period of time have raised the grave need for the Deputy State Pathologist to be based in the southern region, which was illustrated by the Sophie du Plantier case in west Cork. That the body was not examined by the pathologist until 24 hours after it was discovered meant the body temperature was irrelevant. This, in turn, meant that the time of death could not be ascertained. This country has received a considerable amount of poor publicity on this matter in Europe, particularly in France. That criticism is justified because the body should have been examined by a pathologist earlier.

Tragically, there was another violent death yesterday in County Kerry. There was also a long delay until that body was examined by a pathologist. This clearly inhibits the prosecuting authorities in their role. However, it is also a cause of tremendous distress to the families of victims. It is inhumane to leave a body lying in a field exposed to the elements for a long period. The situation is already bad enough for the families of victims, their grief is heavy in their hearts, without having to carry the terrible burden of the knowledge that the body of their loved one is left exposed to the elements. That is too much to ask any human being to bear.

It is quite obvious the Deputy State Pathologist needs to be located in the southern region. There are in excess of 50 post mortems every year outside the greater Dublin region, which is borne out by the 1996 figures. Last year the State Pathologist cried out for help for his Department. He stated that the loss of Dr. Margaret Bolster, the then temporary Deputy State Pathologist, would be a grave loss to his department. She resigned because she was not appointed permanently by the Department of Justice. Apparently, she would only have been appointed if she had decided to move to Dublin.

It is hard to understand all this. In a recent report to the Director of Public Prosecutions' office it was stated that long delays in the provision of forensic reports which may be of considerable importance in deciding whether there should be a prosecution were a relevant factor in delays in some court cases.

It is quite obvious there is a need to locate the Deputy State Pathologist in the southern region. There is tremendous anger about the delay in examining the body of the young man in Tralee. The Minister stated she can see no good reason to regionalise the pathology service. She also stated in a letter to me that she did not think it would help the service to do so. I earnestly ask her to reconsider her position in the light of recent experiences.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The Taoiseach stated in the House that it was important for the media to respect the dead. It is also important that the Taoiseach, the Minister and the Government respect the dead. I am very dissatisfied that we have not learned any lessons from the debacle which occurred with the death of Madame du Plantier in west Cork due to the fact that 24 hours elapsed before the State Pathologist arrived on the scene.

Less than two months later, there has been a very serious murder in Kerry of a young lad whose body was left lying in a field in bitter cold and lashing rain. The family had to endure, on top of all the agony they were already suffering, the sight of that young man's body waiting for 12 hours before the State Pathologist arrived. Was that necessary? Should that ever have been repeated? The obvious answer is "no". It is vitally important for a pathologist to arrive at the scene of a crime at the earliest possible time.

It is quite ironic that somebody with the qualifications of Dr. Bolster, who served as a temporary Deputy State Pathologist, whose expertise and experience Dr. Harbison lauded in his report and who was suggested by him as being more than suitable for a full time position, would have to resign that position when she could not be given a permanent post. Why was Dr. Bolster not asked to attend in Tralee this week? She could have been there within an hour and a half of the murder being made known.

Why, given that almost one third of the murders which occurred in this country last year were committed in the Munster region, will the Minister not regionalise this post? Is it not the intellectual capacity, knowledge and experience of the State Pathologist which is important at any crime scene? In the interests of humanity, it is time for the Minister to ensure that this post is regionalised and taken out of Dublin so that people can be assured that such delays will not occur again and the families involved will not have to experience such inhumanity again.

Mrs. Owen

I thank the Deputies for raising this matter and express my sympathy to the families of those who have lost their lives as a result of tragic, criminal activities in recent months. It is more difficult to deal with this issue when investigations into crimes are ongoing because I run the risk of sounding as if I am simply giving out information and not taking into account particular circumstances. Because post mortems and examinations of bodies are part of an investigation I cannot say a great deal about individual cases.

I want to put on the record some facts about the State Pathology Service which I believe are not fully clear to many people. I thought they would be clear to those in this House but from what I have just heard, they are obviously not. I do not mean to lecture the Deputies opposite but it is important people understand this service.

Dr. John Harbison was appointed State Pathologist in 1974 under contract to the Attorney General. He was transferred to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions when that office was set up in 1975. I took over personal responsibility for the State Pathologist in July 1996, while the Minister for Health took on responsibility to provide him with a suitable office and laboratory. For 21 of the 22 years of this service the DPP was responsible for the State Pathologist. His office continued to be financed by the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions up to 31 December 1996. It was not until this year's budget, with effect from 1 January 1997, that provision was made for him in Vote 19 of the Office of the Minister for Justice. This new arrangement ended years of requests by Dr. Harbison to be brought under either the Department of Health or the Department of Justice.

The Department of Finance, under Deputy Bertie Ahern as Minister, sanctioned a post of Deputy State Pathologist in June 1993 to be filled, first, on a temporary basis by a pathologist nominated by the State Pathologist, that person to hold the post pending, second, an appointment on a permanent basis by competition held by the Civil Service Commission. It was not a case of me or anybody else telling Dr. Bolster she was acting in a temporary capacity and that, therefore, she could have the full-time job. I am bound by the Civil Service Commission.

No action was taken by the appropriate authority, the DPP until I became Minister, to implement this decision. Officers of my Department and I met Dr. Harbison in 1995 and persuaded him to nominate a pathologist to be appointed on a temporary basis pending filling the permanent post by competition. Dr. Margaret Bolster was nominated by the State Pathologist and held the temporary post from 16 June 1995 until 16 June 1996 based on conditions set out to her before she accepted the post, and she was paid by the DPP.

Dr. Bolster resigned on 16 June 1996 because she was not prepared to do State pathology work in all parts of the country. Recent indications are that she would work only in Munster. Because the post was a temporary one Dr. Bolster also worked for at least two other institutions. Deputy O'Keeffe wanted to know the reason Dr. Bolster has not been asked to carry out post mortems when Dr. Harbison is not available. I am aware that since June of last year she has been asked to carry out post mortems and that, in some instances, she did not make herself available. She may well have been able to do them in some instances.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

When was she asked?

Mrs. Owen

I am not saying she was asked in the Sophie Toscan du Plantier case but she has been asked. Other pathologists have since been nominated by the State Pathologist to fill the post for short periods to cover post mortems, but currently there is no temporary Deputy State Pathologist, even though Dr. Harbison has been asked repeatedly by officers of my Department to nominate one. It seems to be proving very difficult to get any suitably qualified person to take on the job on a temporary basis even though some pathologists are available on a once off basis. A number of pathologists have done work in the meantime.

As far as filling the post on a permanent basis is concerned, in July 1996 I initiated procedures to have the post filled by competition by the Civil Service Commission. As this was the first time a State pathology post was being filled by open competition, detailed discussions were necessary with the State Pathologist and officers of the Departments of Finance and Health about the terms and conditions to be applied to the post. In the event, the post was advertised by the Civil Service Commission on 16-17 January 1997. The closing date for the competition is 6 March 1997.

The case being made today and in the past is not so much the location of the central laboratory-office, etc., but to divide the country between the State Pathologist and the new Deputy State Pathologist, to draw a line across the centre of the country. In 1996 the State Pathology Service carried out 100 post mortem examinations under section 33(2) of the Coroners Act, 1962. Almost 50 per cent of those post mortems were in the Dublin region while the rest were spread fairly evenly throughout the country. Any country, therefore, could have a call on this job. Given the geographical spread of the work both pathologists must be prepared to carry out post mortem examinations anywhere in the Twenty-six Counties as it is not possible to predict where their services will be required. For this reason the post has been advertised as being based in Dublin with a countrywide commitment. This does not preclude the successful applicant from living anywhere in the country outside Dublin provided they commit to a countrywide service.

In July 1996 I also initiated discussions with representatives of my Department, the State Pathologist and the Department of Health about the provision of suitable accommodation — the current State Pathologist is working out of an office attached to Trinity College. I am glad that substantial progress has been made on this matter and I am hopeful a new laboratory, office and ancillary services will be built on a site at Beaumont Hospital before the end of this year. It is clear that because these facilities are being provided in Dublin the service will be based around them. It would not be practical or economical to duplicate these full services in two separate locations. Post mortems are carried out throughout the country by the State Pathologist. Although the current State Pathologist is based in Dublin, 50 per cent of his work is often carried out in various locations outside Dublin.

I am inquiring into the circumstances of the two recent post mortems but as they form part of ongoing investigations I am not in a position to comment specifically on them. I have again urged Dr. Harbison to nominate a deputy to carry out post mortems when he is not readily available, pending the appointment of a permanent deputy by the Civil Service Commission. I have asked the Garda Commissioner to ensure that gardaí at the scene of a crime are fully informed as to the actions necessary when the services of a pathologist are required.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 March 1997.