It is proposed to take the report from the Select Committee on Social Affairs on the National Cultural Institutions Bill, 1996, from the Seanad; No. 10, Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1996, from the Seanad — Financial Resolution; No. 11, motion concerning the Finance Act, 1994 (Section 32) (Exemption of Certain Non-Commercial State-sponsored Bodies from Certain Tax Provisions) Order, 1997 in draft; No. 1, Courts Bill, 1997, from the Seanad, Second and remaining Stages; and No. 2, Freedom of Information Bill, 1996, from the Seanad, Second Stage. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) Nos. 10 and 11 shall be decided without debate; (3) Second and remaining Stages of No. 1 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after one hour by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice; and (4) the Dáil, on its rising on Thursday, 13 March 1997 shall adjourn until 1 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 March 1997. Private Members' Business shall be No. 9, Private Educational Institutions Bill, 1997, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, subject to leave being given to introduce the Bill.
Order of Business.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
There are four matters to be put to the House. Is the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that Nos. 10 and 11 be decided without debate? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 1 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for the Adjournment of the Dáil agreed?
On the last question, I wish to raise the question of education, which has general importance and on which there has been much comment. The Taoiseach has often said that the cornerstone of democracy is decent education. Two important Bills are before the House this week, the Universities Bill and the Education Bill, and the Minister asserts that these will effect the most sweeping changes ever made to the education system. We are dissatisfied that debate on these Bills is to be strangled and cut short when many people wish to contribute. Many amendments from Committee Stage of the Universities Bill will be recommitted on Report Stage and the Education Bill will, if implemented, have far-reaching importance. Many Members wish to speak on the latter Bill but they will be denied the opportunity. I ask the Taoiseach to reconsider the matter.
I agree with Deputy O'Rourke. The Government proposes to guillotine the Education Bill on Thursday but we have more speakers anxious to contribute to the debate. It is neither helpful nor healthy to impose a guillotine at lunchtime on Thursday.
The Government's proposal is not before the House today but it will be tomorrow. Its purpose is to allow the House to proceed to discuss the details of these Bills section by section when constructive proposals can be considered. We cannot begin to do this until Second Stage is concluded, as general speeches are made then. There has already been a lengthy Second Stage debate on the Bills in question——
There has not, only four Fianna Fáil Members spoke so far. What is the Tánaiste muttering? This is an election gimmick.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Let us hear the reply, please.
The Minister is anxious to move forward to a detailed discussion of the legislation and she has already made public her assurance that she will consider constructive suggestions not only from the Opposition but from the interested parties in education. Discussions are taking place with those parties with a view to ensuring their views are taken as fully as possible on board. It is not possible to give effect to any agreements which might be made with interested parties or to any constructive suggestions from the Opposition until we begin Committee Stage discussion of the Bill.
That is a new one.
I challenge the Taoiseach's suggestion that the Minister is anxious to bring the Bill to Committee Stage. It has always been a point of principle in the House that if there is great interest in a Bill Members are entitled to contribute to it on Second Stage.
It is democratic debate.
Fianna Fáil has only had four speakers on Second Stage of the Education Bill.
Too many.
Not all Members of the House are members of the Select Committee on Social Affairs and Second Stage is the only opportunity they have to contribute to a Bill as fundamental as this.
Has Fianna Fáil no confidence in its spokesperson?
We have more confidence in him than the Government has in the Minister.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Deputy in possession, please. Be brief, Deputy Martin, but you will have order.
A two-hour debate on Thursday is totally inappropriate because, for one thing, this Bill purports to drive the churches out of Irish education.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Deputy has had an opportunity to make his point. We cannot debate the Bill in detail.
Some groups have yet to finalise their positions and make submissions to the House or the committees. They are faxing them through in a hurry. This is a guillotine for the purposes of an election and the way the House and the Members are being treated is disgraceful.
Because of the rota system within the House my party has had only one speaker, myself, on the Education Bill and other Members wish to contribute. The reason we are going into Committee Stage is that the Minister realises that opposition to the Bill is building up so she is trying to get it through as quickly as possible.
Nonsense.
The Minister is running away from her proposals and trying to get them out of this House, which is the forum for democratic debate. The people elect Members to voice their views and we are entitled to a proper debate on what the Minister called the most fundamental change in education in the history of the State. It is ridiculous that the Government is trying to guillotine the Bill, or strangle it, as may colleague said. It is essential that the House has more time to debate it.
The purpose of the legislation promoted by the Minister is to provide for a partnership——
Do not talk nonsense. Some partnership — it is dictatorship.
A one-way partnership.
——between the religious patrons of schools, the State and the parents and provide an institutional structure in which all the partners in education can have their say.
The public has its say here through its representatives.
I think this a reasonable approach but suggestions which are in be made by any of the partners to education or by the Opposition can and should be considered when we look at the Bill on a line by line, section by section basis, which we can only do on Committee Stage.
After it has been guillotined.
It is the Government's anxiety to move as soon as we can into Committee Stage where all these points of view, many of them valid, can be taken into proper account. Deputy Martin should realise that it is important that parents have a say in the education of their children——
Absolutely.
Through their representatives.
——and the suggestion being made that somehow they should not is not a good one.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
I will not call all the Deputies who are offering.
On a point of order——
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Excuse me, Deputy. The question the Chair put to the House is not the Education Bill. I have allowed questions to be asked and after calling one more speaker I must put the question.
This party provided 29 speakers on the Universities Bill and so far we have only provided four speakers on the Education Bill. There have been four hours' debate on that Bill and the Government proposes to allow only another two. We raise the matter to put the Government on notice that what it is doing is wrong. Merely giving more time on Thursday is not acceptable. We ask that the Bill be debated for at least another week to enable outside groups "tick-tacking" with the Government to tick-tack with the Opposition because we have a duty——
Are they ignoring the Opposition?
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Deputy has made his point well.
On a point of order, a Leas Cheann-Comhairle, you will appreciate that Second Stage of a Bill deals with its principles.
Where is the point of order?
The main issue in the Education Bill is the principle under which the Minister seeks to drive all churches out of education.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
That is not a point of order, Deputy.
This issue must be discussed in the House before it goes to Committee.
Tá
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Broughan, Thomas.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McDowell, Derek.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Upton, Pat.
- Walsh, Éamon.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullen, Martin.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Keaveney, Cecilia.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Smith, Michael.
- Woods, Michael.
In the absence of the Taoiseach last week, the Tánaiste took the Order of Business. On the question of the Advanced Technology College, he said that if something could be done it would be done. What progress has the Minister for Education made in terms of meeting these students and their parents?
The Minister for Education will deal with that matter in the next day or so in the context of debates on the subject in the House.
With respect, it will be too late to deal with it in two or three days time.
Order, is this not the subject of a Private Members' Bill this evening?
The Taoiseach is a generous man but——
Did the Deputy not hear me?
This is a very serious matter.
Deputy Andrews, I asked if this was the subject matter of a Private Members' Bill later today.
The general principle is but the college is not.
I am seeking clarification——
The Deputy will have an opportunity to have matters clarified when the measure comes before the House.
In the absence of the Minister for Education, will another Minister meet with the Merrion Square 500? The matter is as simple as that.
I call Deputy Martin to move the First Stage of the Private Educational Institutions Bill, 1997.