Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Mar 1997

Vol. 476 No. 6

Order of Business.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Quinn)

It is proposed to take the Report from the Select Committee on Social Affairs on the Equal Status Bill, 1997; No. 25a, motion re. ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 2, Central Bank Bill, 1996 — amendments from the Seanad; No. 14, motion re. Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Blood Transfusion Service Board.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) No. 25a should be decided without debate; (2) the amendments from the Seanad to No. 2 should be taken together and decided without debate by one question, which shall be put from the Chair; and (3) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 14: the opening speech of a Minister, Minister of State and main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats shall not exceed one hour in each case and the speech of each other Member called shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; Members may share time and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three matters to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 25a agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 2 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 14 agreed?

Mrs. O'Rourke

On No. 14, yesterday during the Order of Business we sought to learn the Government's intentions on the payment of exemplary and aggravated damages to those affected by hepatitis C. Late last night we were glad to learn this had been agreed by the Government as it accords with the spirit of our amendment.

On a separate but related matter, it was put to the Tánaiste yesterday that the relevant Minister would answer questions and be accountable on the matter. The Tánaiste said that health questions would be taken as a normal matter of course next Tuesday, thereby implying that suitable questions could be answered through that mechanism. We now understand that questions will not be allowed next Tuesday on this matter. Therefore, we ask again that the Minister answer questions on this matter.

Mr. Quinn

The House will debate the report of the tribunal set up on foot of a motion in this House. During that tribunal, a variety of questions were rigorously put to a number of people, including the Ministers for Health and the Environment, Deputies Noonan and Howlin. Both Ministers will speak in this debate and the Minister for Health, Deputy Noonan, will reply at the end of the debate. In his reply he will deal comprehensively with the questions posed in the debate.

Mrs. O'Rourke

We wish to press the issue of having direct questions and answers either during or after the debate.

Miss Quill

How can the Government defend its position in not allowing a question and answer session at the end of this debate? Who is the Government protecting? It is not protecting the victims of the worst health scandal since the foundation of this State. Why are they afraid to answer questions in here? Are they afraid the truth will emerge in answers to them?

Mr. Howlin

That is a disgrace and unworthy of the Deputy.

Miss Quill

The Taoiseach is not present. When in Opposition in 1994, he castigated the then Government because a question and answer session was not allowed on the report of the beef tribunal.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is adequate and the Deputy may not anticipate the debate. This is a procedural matter.

Miss Quill

Is beef more important than women?

Mr. Quinn

I understand Deputy Quill's anguish and I can relate to it——

Miss Quill

Not mine, the women's.

Mr. Quinn

——but I cannot forgive her or her party leader's attempts to act as they do. Let us not have a repetition of what we heard on Morning Ireland yesterday.

(Interruptions.)

Ms O'Donnell

There is still a cover-up mind set.

Mr. Quinn

This Government has nothing to hide on this issue or anything else. This House sought the establishment of a tribunal, which was established. It went into every question that could be asked in respect of these matters.

Ms O'Donnell

It did not.

Mr. Quinn

The report of that tribunal is now before the House. We will have a debate, as agreed, and the questions raised during that debate will be answered comprehensively by the Minister for Health.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a procedural matter and the Chair will hear brief comments for and against.

Dr. McDaid

As we are not going to have questions, I remind the House that apart from more than 1,000 women who have hepatitis C as a result of anti-D, there are over 600 people with hepatitis C as a result of blood transfusions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should reserve his comments for the debate.

Dr. McDaid

I ask the Minister to refer to those patients during his comments.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not waste precious time for the debate by beginning it now. That is not in order.

Dr. McDaid

These patients are not able to receive the treatment which is available to the anti-D victims because they cannot use Interferon. There are 600 other patients who got blood transfusions——

An Ceann Comhairle

I must ask the Deputy to desist.

Dr. McDaid

Will the Minister comment on these cases in the debate?

Ms O'Donnell

The Government still refuses to answer questions on one key aspect of this affair, that is the legal strategy it employed against the unfortunate women involved.

Mr. Dukes

Soundbites again.

Ms O'Donnell

The Minister would know. The Minister for Finance said that all questions would be dealt with in the debate in the context of the report of the tribunal. The legal strategy employed by the State was specifically excluded because——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Donnell should reserve her comments for the debate.

Ms O'Donnell

——it goes to the heart of the debate about aggravated damages. The manner in which the State battled against those women was to defend the indefensible.

Mr. Finucane

Why is Deputy Harney not here to apologise for her intemperate outburst yesterday?

Ms O'Donnell

I did not hear an apology from the Government.

Mr. Finucane

What about the Fianna Fáil former Ministers? Were they referred to in the report?

Mr. D. Ahern

They had nothing to hide. They were not called before the tribunal. Had they anything to answer for they would have been called before it.

Mr. Martin

The terms of reference were deliberately exclusive. It answered some of the questions but we are not to be allowed ask questions in the House.

Mr. Quinn

This is a scandal of unprecedented proportions. It goes back to the early 1970s and every party in the House has been in office at some time during that period. This is a scandal on the citizens.

Mr. Martin

That is not the point.

Ms O'Donnell

The Government has the responsibility now.

Mr. Martin

Who authorised the legal strategy?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin should restrain himself.

Mr. Quinn

The Members of this House accept that this is a scandal. It should never happen again. In the course of today's debate let us stop playing party politics with the issue. Let us deal with it and learn the lessons.

Ms O'Donnell

Last week's motion was a shame.

Mr. Quinn

As a Deputy who has held office I am ashamed of what has happened.

Ms O'Donnell

The Ministers, Deputy Noonan and Deputy Howlin, should be ashamed.

Mr. Quinn

I hope that no future Government will have to deal with such events again. The victims do not want to see party political advantage being sought.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I agree with the tenor of the remarks made by the Minister for Finance. It follows that a question and answer session would be appropriate.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is repetitious. I call Deputy Dermot Ahern to move his amendment to the Order of Business.

Mr. D. Ahern

It is wrong to suggest that party politics are being played on this serious matter. Remarks were made about Fianna Fáil former Ministers. Those former Ministers were not called before the tribunal.

Mr. Howlin

They were excluded by the terms of reference.

Mr. D. Ahern

They were willing to appear before the tribunal at any stage had they been asked.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I offered myself.

Mr. D. Ahern

We want the Government to concede to what has become the normal practice in debates on matters such as this — a short question and answer session with the Minister involved. We requested such an arrangement in relation to the Government's first proposal to have statements on the matter and it was refused. We also made the request when the Government agreed to our request to put a motion on the matter so that we might table an amendment. The Government has not acceded to that request. The Minister for Finance should allow a short question and answer session.

I propose that there should be a question and answer session for a 45 minute period before the Minister for Health concludes the debate, as has been the practice in the past. I move the following amendment: "That the arrangements for No. 14 be amended to include a question and answer session to the Minister for Health for a period not exceeding 45 minutes."

Amendment put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 50; Níl, 69.

Tá

• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Browne, John (Wexford).
• Burke, Raphael.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Ellis, John.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Foley, Denis.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hughes, Séamus.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Keogh, Helen.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McDaid, James.
• McDowell, Michael.
• Moffatt, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Morley, P.J.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• O'Donnell, Liz.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Batt.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Ryan, Eoin.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Ahearn, Theresa.
• Barry, Peter.
• Bell, Michael.
• Bhamjee, Moosajee.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Bree, Declan.
• Broughan, Thomas.
• Burke, Liam.
• Burton, Joan.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Costello, Joe.
• Coveney, Hugh.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Finucane, Michael.
• Fitzgerald, Brian.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Mulvihill, John.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Penrose, William.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Fitzgerald, Eithne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McDowell, Derek.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, John.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, P.J.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Upton, Pat.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald.

Amendment declared lost.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with item No. 14 be agreed to", put and declared carried.