Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 Apr 1997

Vol. 477 No. 5

Ceisteanna — Questions. - Information Society Initiative.

1.Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his remarks at the launch of the Information Society on 9 April 1997. [9739/97]

The Taoiseach

On 9 April, with the Ministers for Finance, Education, Transport, Energy and Communications, Enterprise and Employment, and the Minister of State with responsibility for Commerce, Science and Technology, I launched the Government's Millennium Initiative on the Information Society. A copy of the press statement at the launch has been placed in the Dáil Library.

The Government acted quickly to establish this initiative to ensure that Ireland takes full advantage of the considerable economic, social and educational benefits of the "Information Society"— the name given to the social and work environment of the future. The Government's action will form part of Ireland's millennium celebrations and will stimulate large-scale investment and improvements in technology throughout the country.

As recommended by the Report of Ireland's Information Society Steering Committee, the Government has decided to establish an Information Society Commission. The commission will be chaired by Ms Vivienne Jupp and will report directly to me as Taoiseach. It will drive initiatives across all sectors of the economy to prepare for the information society.

As part of the initiative, the Minister for Education announced a comprehensive set of measures to provide our young people with the skills and aptitudes to prosper in the era of the information society. These will include a schools' information technology 2000 project, a scoilnet initiative and a school integration initiative.

Altogether, 14,000 teachers will be trained in the use of information and communications technologies and at least one multimedia-ready computer connected to the Internet will be provided in every school as the initial step in a phased development programme.

The Government has also identified a number of proposals to stimulate further developments in the business sector. The Minister for Enterprise and Employment has asked Forfás to develop proposals with industry for the establishment of a Digital Park. The Information Society Commission has been asked to select 22 areas throughout the country for guaranteed broad-band service access. The Government has also asked it to recommend changes in legislation to remove any limitations on the use of information and communications technologies.

Taken as a whole, this initiative will help ensure Irish people in every area of life from business to the home will have access to and benefit from the many different opportunities presented by this new information-based economic and social environment.

Mr. B. Ahern

Will the Taoiseach outline the terms of reference and remit of the commission and when its membership will be announced?

The Taoiseach

Membership of the commission will be announced this week. Its remit is to promote awareness of the requirement of change on everybody and every organisation in the State to ensure that we, as a society, fully use the information society to achieve our economic and social objectives and to ensure that the onset of the information society does not create divisions between those who have and those who do not have the necessary resources to use modern technology.

Mr. B. Ahern

I agree with the Taoiseach's statement that information technology has spread throughout society and not only to those who can afford to use it. Apart from educational measures, will the Taoiseach indicate what other ways we can be involved in this initiative? The Department of Education and Forfás are relevant organisations to be involved in it, but will organisations such as those which run FÁS, community workshop and combat poverty programmes and deal with people on the margins be involved in it? The people who run those organisations are being told there are many jobs in technology and on the information highways, but the people with whom they deal, do not get many opportunities to take them up. Will the Taoiseach ask the commission to take account of those people in particular, as 20,000 young people are dropping out of education? This is a good idea but I would not like to see us make the educated more educated while doing very little for those on the margins of society.

The Taoiseach

I will specifically ask the commission to recommend the introduction of further incentives to encourage those who might not otherwise do so to use information technology in their daily lives. One of the crucial social questions that will face us in the first ten years of the next century will be whether the development in information technology will create two societies in Ireland or whether we will still have one. There is a risk that those who can afford to buy computers or go to schools where computers are readily available will have a further advantage on top of the already considerable advantages they have over those who do not have a computer in their homes. Therefore, we are taking an initiative to ensure a multimedia computer linked to the internet will be provided within easy access of everybody in Ireland. We will use a network of libraries and Government offices to ensure everybody has the physical means of getting to a facility where information technology is available to them and they can have access to the internet.

Clearly, training is of crucial importance. FÁS already provides considerable resources for training in information technology but it is not of use to people unless they have access to computers upon completion of training courses. That is why access to computers for those outside the education system as well as, most importantly, those within the system are central elements in this initiative. The information society report indicated that up to 48,000 additional jobs could be created by the application of the most advanced modern information technology. That is why, for example, we are providing for a digital park where multimedia technology for the making of film, film music and so forth can be developed. We will also provide broad band cables in at least 22 locations so that industry and business that wish to use multimedia communications, including video conferencing, have facilities available to them to develop. Additional employment will be created through this initiative.

Miss Quill

I applaud this initiative and welcome the proposal to place computers at the disposal of primary schools. Is the Taoiseach aware that when the leader of my party, Deputy Harney, made this recommendation at our national conference in Limerick last November, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, wrote to her the following day accusing her of financial recklessness by proposing to provide computers in every school? What has happened in the meantime to make the Government change its mind?

Mrs. O'Rourke

A general election.

Mr. Dempsey

We are six months closer to an election.

Miss Quill

Are the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance ad idem on this issue?

Mr. Rabbitte

He will put them down manholes in future.

Mr. Cowen

Is that where the Deputy will be hiding? He will be canvassing down there — a political underworld.

The Taoiseach

There is a computer in 65 per cent of primary schools and in virtually all secondary schools. The difficulty is that there are not a sufficient number of them to cater for the number of pupils who want to use them. For example, in primary schools there is approximately one computer for every 100 pupils while in secondary schools there is one for every 33. Our aim should be to provide one computer for every ten pupils in primary schools and one for every three in post primary schools. Considerable leeway must be made up. It is very important that the computers provided should be capable of being linked to the internet and are not just confined to the use of information available on disk in these schools.

Emphasis should be placed on training teachers and that is the most important element of this initiative. The experience of introducing computers in other walks of life is that frequently they were not used adequately, or at all in some instances, because people did not fully understand what they were capable of doing.

Miss Quill

When did the Taoiseach have a change of heart?

The Taoiseach

The training of teachers will be a major element in this. Fourteen thousand teachers will be trained shortly to develop this initiative.

Mr. B. Ahern

What resources have been made available to the commission? What resources are available in the 1997 Estimates? While embracing the information age in our policies, what is provided in the terms of reference of the commission to deal with difficulties on the internet, such as defamation, the availability of pornography and issues of copyright which are causing serious problems in other countries?

The Taoiseach

Approximately £30 million will be spent on this initiative by the State and I expect this to be matched more than twofold by business and other interests. Approximately half of this will go towards equipment in schools and the remainder will go towards training teachers. This spending will continue until 2001.

The reform of copyright legislation is a matter of considerable importance in this area. If one considers that during the first half of this century the most important area of law related what could be termed "real property"— land and houses, who owned them and who had a right to use them. In the next century the most important area of law will relate to "intellectual property"— who owns information and who is entitled to use it. The priority must be to modernise our copyright legislation. A framework for this is provided in European law. Britain, a country with considerably more resources than Ireland, took approximately 13 years to modernise its copyright law. It is a major undertaking and the Government is taking steps to accelerate the modernisation of our copyright law.

A working group chaired by the Minister for Justice is examining defamation, pornography and other forms of abusive activity on the internet. These matters do not fall within the terms of reference of the commission being established under my Department; they are separate issues. However, the working group is working intensively and will be putting forward proposals on them.

Mr. Sargent

I welcome any plan to make information technology more widely available, particularly for the disadvantaged who cannot avail of it at present. Has the Taoiseach considered the implications for schools which currently have to pay 21 per cent VAT on computer equipment? There will be a huge investment of £15 million in schools but over £3 million will be taken in VAT. Will the Taoiseach consider removing VAT on computers being provided in schools? It is clearly an impediment to the development of information technology.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would prefer if that question were raised separately with the appropriate Minister.

Mr. Sargent

Schools have been mentioned.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to intervene?

The Taoiseach

The money provided by the State to assist schools in purchasing computers is considerably in excess of the VAT that would be charged. The rates of VAT applicable to different goods is governed by EU law. It is not open to the Government to exempt any product, such as that mentioned by the Deputy, entirely from VAT. This applies also in hospitals. The Deputy is engaging in a well worn controversy. Rather than exempting them from VAT for this purpose, which could be going down a cul de sac, it would be more expeditious to give schools financial assistance to buy computers. We also hope businesses will supply computers. For example, businesses sometimes upgrade computers although the existing ones are perfectly good and would be adequate and useful for schools. In this way, through the Tech Corps initiative, 22 Dublin schools are being provided not only with computers but also with back up on their usage. I would like such private sector initiatives to supply computers at a low price to schools to be extended throughout the island.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Millennium Initiative on the Information Society is one of the most far-sighted initiatives of our time. Does the Taoiseach think the Government should be complimented on another far-sighted decision——

Mr. R. Burke

Leaving Deputy O'Keeffe on the back benches.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

——which was to locate an outreach centre of Cork regional technical college in Skibbereen as a pilot project, using a high level of telematic delivery of educational programmes?

Mr. Sargent

The election has begun.

Miss Quill

Will that be a full university?

Mr. Dempsey

Deputy O'Keeffe should distribute his script.

The Taoiseach

It is important that we seek to use the most modern techniques of distance learning. With broad-band technology it is now possible for people in Skibbereen and other parts of the world to attend a lecture given in New York and to interact with the lecturer. Distance education techniques allow this. I recently participated in such a discussion when I visited the out-reach centre of the University of Ulster at Enniskillen. It was linked to the extension of Cork regional technical college at Skibbereen and both institutions are linked to the University of Missouri in the United States, using modern distance education technology — video conferencing, effectively.

Mr. B. Ahern

This was happening five years ago.

The Taoiseach

We propose that an experimental centre to apply this technology in education on a systematic basis, for the first time in Ireland, will be located in Skibbereen. That part of Ireland is further from centres of third level education than anywhere else but that extension is now available to it, using and applying a particular educational technology.

Mr. R. Burke

We used to call this an "after Mass meeting" speech.

The Taoiseach

The people of Skibbereen should note that this important and valid initiative is being greeted with less than seriousness by Fianna Fáil.

Mrs. O'Rourke

The Taoiseach will lose the run of himself.

Mr. R. Burke

He is so po-faced.

Mrs. O'Rourke

One could call it something else.

Miss Quill

The Government has rightly provided accelerated access to information technology to a number of young people. Is there a parallel programme to accelerate educational provision to those who have not yet mastered the old technologies of reading and writing? Some 18,000 of those who leave formal education every year are both illiterate and innumerate. Is he worried that the gap between achievers and non-achievers at school will now widen and is he making provision to ensure, in the interests of natural justice, this will not happen?

The Taoiseach

It is essential that people be literate and numerate if they are to use computers, to the extent that they are not, they will be unable to use them. The point raised by the Deputy is valid. It is a matter of considerable importance that there should be investment in education and since it has come into office the Government has been able to reduce substantially the pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools. This allows more intensive, one-to-one attention to be given to children who are falling behind. As the Deputy is aware, there are now four fewer pupils per teacher in primary schools than there were when the Government entered office, which means it is possible for teachers to give more attention to such children. The use of computers may help people become more proficient in reading, writing and arithmetic.