Bertie Ahern
Question:2 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his remarks at the Compaq cross-Border trade awards. [9740/97]
Ceisteanna — Questions. - Northern Ireland.
Bertie Ahern
Question:3 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his meeting with the SDLP. [9893/97]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together.
I met on Wednesday, 9 April last an SDLP delegation comprising the party leader, Mr. John Hume, MP, MEP, and the party's three other MPs, Mr. Séamus Mallon, Dr. Joe Hendron and Mr. Eddie McGrady. The Government was also represented at the meeting by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Social Welfare.
We reviewed the current situation as regards Northern Ireland as well as the prospects for the future. We agreed that it was of critical importance, at this juncture, that everybody of like mind should take a firm stand against extremism of all shades. We resolved that we would do everything in our power to press ahead with our efforts to secure a political agreement which can be put to the people for their decision, by way of referenda North and South. We agreed that, at the end of the day, the way to still the voice of extremism and sectarianism, which is the voice of the minority, is to let the vast majority of the people on this island have their say.
I took the opportunity, on the steps of Government Buildings, to pay tribute to Mr. Hume and the SDLP for their tireless work for an agreement based on consent between the peoples who live on this island. I am sure that the House will wish to avail of the opportunity today to endorse this. I have no doubt, too, that the House will wish to be associated with my condemnation of violence on all sides, whether loyalist or republican, and to join with me in extending our heartfelt sympathy to the latest victim of violence, RUC Reserve Constable Ms Alice Collins, shot in the back by the IRA.
I indicated in my address at the Compaq Ireland Trade Awards on 2 April that the Government remains committed to securing a settlement which will address the three core relationships at the heart of present divisions. I referred to the shared understanding of the Irish and British Governments on the shape of such a settlement, as set out in the joint framework document. I also referred to the need for the two Governments jointly to give pro-active leadership at appropriate junctures, if required. I look forward to working closely with the next British Government in advancing the overriding imperative of a political agreement.
Did anything emerge from the Taoiseach's discussion with the SDLP which would indicate that the process could be moved forward after the British election? Has the British Administration made further progress in preparing for the talks on 3 June? As the Taoiseach has requested, we join in the renunciation of the attack on the RUC reserve officer last week, as we have done outside the House. We also condemn the burning of several churches. In recent nights Catholic churches have been under attack in many parts of Northern Ireland but, unfortunately, churches of all denominations are being attacked by loyalist and republican sources that are creating all the difficulties. That is all the more reason, even during this election period, our officials and embassies should work to remove the log-jams. Has any progress been made on these issues?
In our discussions with the SDLP we agreed that when the talks resumed on 3 June it was important both Governments should be pro-active in moving them forward. We should also indicate that initiatives are open to us to ensure that the talks address all items which should be addressed in the three strands of relationships. After the electoral consultation in Northern Ireland is concluded, there must be an added impetus from the Governments and the parties to ensure we move from procedural issues, which have absorbed a great deal of time, to the issues of substance which are currently causing so much hardship and fear. The SDLP originated the proposal that when an agreement is reached in the talks it should be put to people, North and South, by way of referendum. Holding a referendum in Northern Ireland, allowing the people to accept or reject the proposal, will assure the majority community that nothing can be done over their heads with which they do not agree.
Equally, the holding of a separate referendum in the Republic, in which the people here can say yes or no to any agreement reached, contains an assurance for the Nationalist minority in Northern Ireland that nothing will be done which does not adequately protect their interests or is over their heads. There are, therefore, in the overarching arrangements for the putting of any proposal agreed in the talks to the people in joint but separate referenda very strong safeguards which should encourage the participants in the talks to make the necessary compromises.
I hope the conclusion drawn by politicians on all sides, particularly in Northern Ireland, from the current appalling spate of sectarian attacks is that they now see in the shape of these vicious attacks the direction in which their society could go if they do not urgently push forward agreement. I hope all politicians, including the two Governments, will be able to come together when the talks resume to ensure we inject the necessary urgency into the process of reaching an agreement and compromise so that we will have a basis for further progress.
I am sure that will happen among the two Governments. However, during the last year leadership has been needed to drive these issues forward. There have been many opportunities to do that over the last 12 months.
In regard to a more pressing issue, how are our officials in Maryfield being used to bring forward initiatives on the marching season, which has effectively begun? It seems, except for one or two positive initiatives, we are facing a very difficult year. On Thursday morning I spoke at length to John Hume regarding this issue. He had no positive words to say on the matter but expressed his concern about what is happening. Has the Government exerted pressure, through Maryfield or Downing Street, to try to force some progress on this issue?
I have said here on a number of occasions that I believe the outpouring of sectarianism which arose from the confrontations at Drumcree last year did very great damage. It is very important for all to recognise their responsibilities in this regard this year. Everyone will suffer if sectarian passions are inflamed in Northern Ireland. It is not simply a matter for the Governments — although it is, of course, very much a matter for them. I can inform the House that the liaison committee of officials of the Irish and British Governments has been meeting very regularly and recently to consider what can further be done to assist agreement in regard to contentious marches.
It is important to make the point that most marches take place without contention, but it exists in a number of localities. I welcome the efforts being made on both sides to reach agreement. I deprecate the efforts being made by some on both sides to undermine those who seek to reach genuine cross-community agreements on a local basis. Those who are undermining people who are trying to reach a compromise have a very heavy responsibility on their shoulders for the consequences of their actions. I appeal to them to recognise their responsibility to their neighbours, children, grandchildren and future generations to ensure sectarianism is not inflamed as a result of the way in which people exercise their rights. There is no doubt that genuine rights are involved here, but these rights conflict. Where rights conflict, there is a necessity for compromise. It is very important that compromise should be the order of the day as far as the marching season is concerned.
I have welcomed, on behalf of the Government, the provisions of the North report. It is the Government's policy that all those provisions should be implemented, both the statutory and non statutory provisions. I am continuing to press the British Government to ensure the full content of the North report, which provides a mechanism for conciliation and regulation of marches, is put into effect.
Will the Taoiseach agree it is important that constitutional politicians seize the initiative back from the men of violence and, whatever their political differences, stand united against violence in everything they say and do for the remainder of the British general election campaign? As leader of this sovereign State, can he do anything further to put this approach in place and keep it in place for the duration of the election campaign?
My meeting with the SDLP was a very important part of the initiative which the Government is taking to ensure that constitutional politics are centre stage. Constitutional politicians — those who have never used or supported the use of violence — are the ones who ultimately have the capacity, means and strength to make the decisions and compromises necessary to move matters forward.
It must also be recognised that there are risks involved in this matter, the biggest of which is to be found in reaching out, not to the extremes on one's own side but to those on the other side. Real risk taking involves reaching out to the other side of the traditional divide with which one's supporters disagree. When I hear comments about risk taking in the peace process, they sometimes seem to be solely directed at reaching out to the extremists on one's own side of the divide. That is not where real risk taking is required — it is required in reaching across the traditional divide. I hope the parties will do that with added conviction and strength of purpose when the talks resume.
I also hope, however, that all the parties with an electoral mandate will be capable of taking part in those talks. For that to happen, it is very important there should be at a very early moment an IRA cessation of violence which is unequivocal and for good.
I am glad to hear of the Taoiseach's meeting with the SDLP and other members of the Government. In the light of the despicable acts of violence and arson against places of worship, does he have plans to meet any of the other parties, particularly those in the business of building consensus such as the Women's Coalition, the Alliance Party and the Green Party, which I will meet in Belfast on Friday and which has candidates standing for election?
I suggest that he include in his discussions, particularly those on the marching season, the option of a device designed to build compromise, the preferendum idea with which he is familiar and which has been promoted by the Green Party for many years. In the case of marches, this device does not simply look at rights from one extreme to the other but at the various options and interpretations of those rights and whether the marching season should proceed in certain areas. That would not be aimed at polarising communities but at trying to build on the greatest level of common ground. That should be part of the Taoiseach's discussions with all parties.
I had a meeting last week with the Women's Coalition on the Northern Ireland situation. I have also had frequent meetings with the Alliance Party. I have had, as the Deputy will recall, a meeting with the Green Party on the matter at which the suggestion of a preferendum was discussed. I also broached that proposal in my recent discussions with the Women's Coalition as a possible instrument which might be used at some point in the talks.
There is considerable difficulty with the proposal in terms of devising the questions on which preferences could be expressed. There could be quite an amount of difficulty in finding an agreed phraseology for the series of questions. However, I have no doubt that the independent chairman of the talks will be willing to use any means of establishing and expanding the common ground between the parties, including the possible use of the instrument to which the Deputy referred, at least within the talks themselves if not in a general consultation with the entire population.
I have no doubt the independent chairman of the talks will be willing to use any means of establishing and expanding the common ground between the parties including, possibly, the use of the instrument to which the Deputy referred, at least within the talks if not in general consultation with the entire population. We must be willing to examine radical possibilities in terms of building consensus in a society which is, unfortunately, radically divided.
We on this side of the House, in common with loyalists and every right thinking person want an unequivocal ceasefire declaration by the Provisionals. Nonetheless is it not a reality that the performance on the North report by the British Government clearly indicates the total failure of the efforts of the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste in the peace process and is a clear indication of just how they have failed in this area of negotiations? Is it not a fact that they were dismissed by Sir Patrick Mayhew, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, in the report on the North within the past week? Despite the Taoiseach's numerous telephone calls and discussions with the British Prime Minister does he not agree that he has failed singularly to make any progress on the matter of marches and the difficulties encountered during the marching season, a clear indication, in addition to many others, of his failure?
This comprehensive type of question is not in order now.
Recognising the importance of constitutional politics and of the necessity to move them forward, at this stage does the Taoiseach not agree it is important for him to call a general election to allow the electorate make a judgement, well in advance of the resumption of talks, so that they can really get going on their nominated date, 3 June next?
I note what the Deputy has said. The position, having regard to the North report requires constant vigilance from the Irish Government. Its recommendations should be implemented and I welcome those elements which have been implemented so far without legislation. I welcome the appointment of the North Commission. Those appointed to it have a high standard of independence and are of a calibre of people who will be able to assist the parties wishing to find a compromise in achieving our objective.
In regard to contentious marches in Northern Ireland, it is very important to recognise there has to be willingness to reach a compromise. It is exceptionally difficult when there is not willingness at least in embryo, on both sides, for people outside the situation to impose a compromise. As somebody who has been a Minister for Justice and dealt with public order issues, I am sure Deputy Burke realises that unless there is a willingness, even willingness to begin to think of compromise, it becomes very difficult for external agents to impose compromise, something all fair-minded Members will recognise.
As far as the Government's policy is concerned, I am very pleased at the manner in which this Government is operating the Anglo-Irish agreement, negotiated by a Government of which I was a member and which for the first time provided a means by which the Irish Government could influence events and policy in Northern Ireland. While that agreement was not supported initially by the Deputy's party I am glad that, when they had governmental responsibility subsequently, they used it fruitfully. That continues to be the best way in which the Irish Government can work to protect the interests of the Nationalist minority in Northern Ireland and deal with all others issues, including contentious marches, job discrimination and policing.
The ultimate objective is to reach an overall agreement. That is why I am very pleased that, as a member of the Government responsible for drawing up the Anglo-Irish Agreement, I have also been a member of the Government which, for the first time ever, obtained a fixed date for all party talks in which all could participate. That was something not available under any previous Government but was on 10 June, 1996 and remains available to all parties once they have foresworn violence.
Will the Taoiseach say what is the present position of the framework document? A poll published in the Belfast Telegraph last week showed that 94 per cent of people living in the North want to negotiate a settlement, yet 74 per cent believe the Stormant talks will fail and one person in ten only believes the two Governments are doing sufficient about the talks. Did the Taoiseach discuss the framework document with the SDLP? What is the present position in relation to it?
As the Deputy well knows, the framework document represents something I am happy to have been able to achieve, as Taoiseach, building on the preparatory work of a previous Administration, representing a shared understanding between the Irish and British Governments of the possible outcome of talks. We did not simply invite the parties to talks on 10 June last and suggest it was up to them to find a solution. As a result of my being able to finalise agreement on a framework document with Mr. John Major, the two Governments were able to give participants in the talks which commenced on 10 June last our ideas on what might be agreed. For this to work, it is necessary that the parties within Northern Ireland should come to an agreement on proposals dealing with the substance of the matters in the framework document. Unfortunately the talks have not reached the stage at which matters of substance are being discussed. Therefore, the matters in the framework document are not yet being discussed. The difficulty encountered in the talks so far has been that the focus has been on issues of procedure and the decommissioning of arms. When the talks resume on 3 June next, it will be very important that they progress into issues of substance, at which stage they will move into discussion of all of the issues put forward in a very systematic and careful way by the two Governments in the framework document.
Because of the loss of time at the commencement of Question Time today, questions to the Taoiseach will conclude at 3.20 p.m.
In regard to cross-Border trade, does the Taoiseach agree the business community and the CBI in the North have been very positive about North-South co-operation and development? Referring to Dr. McDaid's question, does he agree that will make the operation of the framework document much easier? Does the Taoiseach consider anything more can be done by the business community to highlight the economic difficulties and losses of the community within the North, or for that matter on the entire island?
Furthermore, does he agree and approve of the CBI's recent useful meeting with Sinn Féin?
It is most important that the business community avails of every opportunity to bring home to people the price being paid in terms of lost jobs, lost incomes and lost opportunities for people not only in Northern Ireland but in the Border region generally as a result of continued sectarian violence in Northern Ireland and of the military campaign by the IRA. Every opportunity should be availed of to bring that to the notice of the public.
The Deputy asked what more the business community could do. It would be useful if more people within that community became active in political life in Northern Ireland since there has not been the normal renewal in political life there. The ethos of calculated risk-taking which characterises successful business might usefully be applied in the talks process in Northern Ireland where the risk of making a compromise would be taken by the participants on a calculated basis with a view to achieving something better and greater than would be achieved by simply adhering to one's present position.
That culture of risk-taking is missing in terms of the willingness to make compromise across the community divide in Northern Ireland. We could do with more people who have been imbued with that culture in business coming into political life, as part of a general renewal of the political life. Regarding any meetings which may have taken place with any political parties, I have no comment to offer on what individual organisations do in terms of meetings with Sinn Féin or with any other party. That is a matter for them entirely. Obviously, in so far as the responsibilities of a sovereign government are concerned they are a different matter.