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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Apr 1997

Vol. 478 No. 2

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take No. 59a — Chemical Weapons Bill, 1997 — Financial Resolution; No. 1 — Chemical Weapons Bill, 1997 — Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 2 — International Development Association (Amendment) Bill, 1997 — Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 9 — Family Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1997 — Second and Subsequent Stages. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) No. 59a shall be decided without debate; (3) the Second and Subsequent Stages of No. 1 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.15 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Enterprise and Employment; (4) the Second and Subsequent Stages of No. 2 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; and (5) the Second and Subsequent Stages of No. 9 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.15 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform. Private Members' Business shall be No. 93 — motion No. 21 re. lottery funding (resumed).

Is the proposal for the late sitting this evening satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 59a satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with item No. 2 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with item No. 9 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

Last week Members on this side of the House agreed to facilitate the Government to have the Family Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1997 passed as quickly as possible to rectify anomalies in the registration of marriages. Once the Bill has been passed by this House this evening will the Taoiseach say whether it is intended to have it taken immediately in the Seanad so that this problem can be rectified?

That, in the first instance, is a matter for the Seanad but I understand that House will be considering this matter soon.

I take it that the proposal for dealing with item No. 9 is agreed. On matters pertaining to the Order of Business——

I have two questions to put to the Taoiseach. The first is in respect of the Public Service Management Bill, 1997 which I note the Government has decided to amend to limit the existing number of ministerial advisers and spin doctors. Will the Taoiseach inform the House how many people will be given notice under the terms of this amendment?

The Bill is at present before the Seanad. The appropriate venue to debate it, or amendments thereto, is the House in which it is being considered. There are, of course, administrative limits on the number of people operating in any particular category of the public service. The Bill will provide statutory backing for the limits which exist.

It is extraordinary the Government has to amend its own legislation to control itself. We should take serious note of that. On Cabinet confidentiality, when can we expect the legislation to provide for holding a referendum?

Virtually all administrative legislation involves the Government controlling itself. The Central Fund Act involves the Government controlling itself and this is nothing unusual. The Ministers and Secretaries Act involves the Government controlling itself. So far as the Cabinet Confidentiality Bill is concerned I expect that item of legislation will be available very soon.

When will the National Sports Council legislation be published? The legislation to put the National Sports Council on a statutory footing was to have been passed prior to Easter. It is a simple Bill and it has been promised for the past two years that it would be passed during the lifetime of this Dáil. Perhaps with the co-operation of the Opposition it could be cleared quickly.

I would not expect that Bill to come before the House until the second half of this year.

On promised legislation, will the Taoiseach indicate when the Statutory Compensation Tribunal Bill will be published? Will the Taoiseach confirm the Minister for Health is planning enabling legislation only, and to establish the compensation tribunal by statutory instrument. Is the Taoiseach aware this is unacceptable to the victims of the hepatitis C scandal? What has happened to the tribunal to investigate haemophiliacs and HIV victims, which was promised in January, and for which there are still no terms of reference? How is it expected to deal with the aggravated damages claim of everybody concerned when the Minister for Health is specifying that only the Finlay report will be taken into account in assessing those damages? What provisions will be made for other victims who are awaiting these other tribunals?

The position in regard to this legislation, as I have explained in a number of days in succession in the House, is that consultation is taking place between the Minister and the various groups affected. A number of groups were met yesterday and in previous days. At least two organisations will be met today. The views of all of them will be taken into account. In so far as there are heads of a Bill which are unlikely to be the subject of change arising from this consultation, the drafting is proceeding to accelerate the final consideration and clearance of the Bill when all the consultation is complete and the decisions finally taken. The Minister for Health and the Government are working with great care to be as helpful as possible to all those who have been involved in this very tragic situation. They are working with all the groups to assure them the arrangements being made to deal with their rights will be put in place in a way that is compassionate and based, as far as possible, on their views and on consultation with them.

A Cheann Comhairle——

I have allowed Deputy Cowen some latitude on this matter. If he has a relevant matter to raise, he may do so but let us not think we can debate the matter now. This is not Question Time and we will not have a debate.

I do not wish to engage the Chair, particularly this morning, but he will understand I have asked specific questions all week on this matter and the Taoiseach has simply given me general indications of support which, I am sure, are genuine. I have questions to put which are in order on the Order of Business.

Specific matters, Deputy. This is not Question Time.

I agree. I am simply asking about the promised legislation and the promise to set up tribunals for victims of HIV who have the same problems, similar to the one——

We must avoid repetition.

——being set up to accommodate Positive Action. There are a number of people who have serious problems.

The Deputy has made his point adequately.

Will the Taoiseach answer the questions? Yesterday I asked specifically what decision had been taken on the reparation fund issue. He declined to give me the specifics.

The Deputy is tending to argue quite unnecessarily.

Will the Taoiseach confirm that Positive Action will reject the 15 per cent aggravated damages proposal, and will insist on a 30 per cent aggravated damages proposal and——

The Deputy is clearly embarking on a speech.

——it wants a response today?

Please desist, Deputy. You have made a speech which is quite sufficient.

I do not wish to be disorderly. I am asking questions and the Taoiseach is obliged to answer and not give general indications.

Deputy Cowen, I ask you to resume your seat, please. If the Taoiseach wishes to intervene he may do so.

There is a process of ongoing consultation.

I am aware of that.

Obviously, the Deputy is hearing about bits of discussions from these consultations and raising them in the House before the consultation is complete. The Government has taken the view we should consult first, decide and then legislate. What the Deputy is referring to is in the subject of consultation and no more. The Government will make its decisions. The Deputy is asking specific questions about individual aspects of the legislation. Those questions will be answered when the legislation is decided on and produced. It would be premature to answer questions on the detail of a matter which is still the subject of extensive consultation. There are two groups at least who have not been met in this round of discussions so far. They will be met today. Until all groups have been met and allowed put forward their points of view it would not be consistent with the meaningful nature of the consultations to announce decisions.

When will the other tribunals be set up? This is a top priority and the leader of the Government cannot answer questions.

Is the Taoiseach aware there are more than 350,000 people here with disabilities, 150,000 of whom are women, which is more than 12 per cent of the population? This is the area in which our paramedics are working. Is it true the radiographers and the lab. technicians are about to go on strike in addition to their paramedic colleagues?Is a resolution in sight before all sections of the hospital services join their paramedic colleagues to bring the whole service to a standstill?

Deputy McDaid will be aware this matter was raised on the Adjournment last evening.

The only reason I raise it is that other sections of the services are about to go on strike——

I am sorry, Deputy.

——and virtually all hospital services will be at a standstill.

The Deputy has made his point. The matter was the subject of debate here last evening.

Will the Taoiseach let us know for the benefit of all those who are on strike outside hospices and REHAB centres today what the situation is before the other areas of the health service join them?

I am sorry. I will not allow a repetition of last evening's debate on the matter.

I understand the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry is to make a statement outside the House tonight about the beef compensation package. I welcome the announcement. A promise was given in Private Members' time last week that any progress would be indicated in a statement to the House. I ask the Taoiseach to ensure the Minister's statement will be made here.

I understand the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry will answer questions today. I believe the matters referred to will be raised during the discussion of those questions.

Will the Minister give the details of the package during Question Time?

The Deputy should wait for the answer to the questions.

I am seeking the Ceann Comhairle's advice. Yesterday, the second day of a strike involving 3,000 health service workers, I put down a Private Notice Question for the Minister for Health. The Ceann Comhairle determined that the matter was not one of such urgency or public importance that it could not wait until the Minister for Health's Question Time in two weeks. Given the unfortunate deterioration in this ongoing situation, can the Ceann Comhairle indicate if I should submit another Private Notice Question on the matter today, and whether he would regard a strike of this nature as a matter of such importance that there could be a question and answer session with the Minister for Health this afternoon?

The Chair has always been forthcoming in matters of this kind. I resent the misrepresentation by the Deputy that the Chair did not entertain the matter sympathetically when there were questions on yesterday's Order Paper appertaining to the subject and when I allowed the Deputy to raise the matter on the Adjournment last night. Let us be fair about this.

I insist on being fair. I would not try, particularly on the day of the Ceann Comhairle's official departure, to misrepresent the Chair's position. Under Standing Orders I can only put down a Private Notice Question to the relevant Minister if the matter is of considerable urgency and of public importance. I appreciate that I was allowed raise the matter on the Adjournment last night. That allowed me to make a statement, after which the Minister of State at the Department of Health made another statement. That is the procedure for Adjournment debates. However, with respect to the Chair, I wish to put down a Private Notice Question today because the matter is of such urgency and importance and is of such a deteriorating nature that we need a special procedure that will go beyond formal statements and will allow Members to ask supplementary questions in order to deal with the matter properly.

I will not allow the Deputy to circumvent my ruling. I will communicate with him in respect of the matter he has raised.

I intended no disrespect.

I do not want the House or the Chair to be misrepresented in respect of my dealing with this important and urgent matter.

This afternoon the leaders of the three parties in the rainbow coalition are scheduled to gather and hold hands in Dublin Castle to announce a new national anti-poverty strategy for the incoming Fianna Fáil led Government.

That is not the only anti-poverty strategy in Dublin Castle.

It is a recycled one at that.

When can we expect to have legislation introduced in relation to the anti-poverty strategy? My second query might be a little down to earth and beneath the notice of these party leaders, but will the Taoiseach consider restoring the provision of butter vouchers to the 900,000 lowest paid people in the country who no longer receive them?

Discuss it with Deputy Joe Walsh.

As a result of means tests these people have lost their butter vouchers.

Where is Deputy Joe Walsh?

Will the anti-poverty strategy include the restoration of the butter vouchers?

The matter is not in order now. Is there legislation in this area?

There is legislation promised.

I am proceeding to the business of the House.

Legislation is promised in relation to the anti-poverty strategy. Can we hear the Taoiseach's reply?

The national anti-poverty strategy, which the Government will launch tomorrow and which arises from commitments I gave on behalf of the Government at the world social summit in Copenhagen, will deal with action that must be taken by all Departments within their existing statutory powers to ensure priority is given to the elimination of poverty in Ireland. Distributional issues arise in the work of every Department and we are taking an approach which involves a commitment by all members of the Government to achieve our objectives in eliminating poverty.

It is happening at the end of this Government's term, not at the beginning.

In the next two weeks? Is it not a joke at this stage?

There is a need to plan ahead in a matter of this nature and the Deputy's approach is somewhat fatuous.

Butter vouchers have been removed from 900,000 people.

Deputy Woods has already made a long speech.

These are the poorest people in the country.

The Taoiseach says it does not matter.

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