Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 May 1997

Vol. 479 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take 24b — Technical Motion re. Revised Estimates for Public Services; No. 11 — Motion re. Approval of Agreement between Ireland and the Czech Republic for the Promotion and Reciprocal Protection of Investments; No. 12 — Motion re. Approval of the Dublin Convention; No. 13 — Revised Estimates for the Public Services [1997] [Votes 1 — 46]; No. 3 — ICC Bank (Amendment) Bill, 1997, Second and Remaining Stages.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 24b, 11 and 12 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded on No. 24b shall be taken forthwith; the Revised Estimates for the Public Services shall be moved together and decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; the Second and Remaining Stages of No. 3 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 11.45 a.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments to the Bill, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; and, in the event of the Bill concluding before 11.45 a.m., the sitting shall stand suspended until that time.

Mrs. O'Rourke

At last.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 24b, 11 and 12 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 13, Revised Estimates for the Public Services, satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 3 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

Ms O'Donnell

There was meant to be a debate on the motion re. approval of the Dublin Convention. There are crucial issues of relevance and concern to Amnesty in relation to our treatment of refugees. It is inappropriate to pass this motion through Dáil Éireann without an adequate debate. During the Seanad debate on the Refugee Bill, the Minister gave an assurance that there would be a special appeal mechanism in relation to Dublin Convention decisions. Those procedures are not yet in place, neither are many of the procedures in the Refugee Act. We are not in agreement with the proposed procedure.

An Ceann Comhairle

The points raised by the Deputy are in order.

The Taoiseach

It is important to ratify this convention. It was signed by Ireland in 1990 but it has not yet been ratified. It is important that the Dáil now do so. The convention provides protections and procedures for dealing with the issue in a very fair way and we should not procrastinate further.

Ms O'Donnell

It may well be that the convention should be ratified——

An Ceann Comhairle

We may not debate the matter now.

Ms O'Donnell

I do not wish to debate it. However, it is not appropriate that this motion be passed through the House without a debate. The convention may well have to be ratified by Ireland but it should not go through without a debate. There is no urgency——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made her point. Is the proposal agreed? Agreed.

Ms O'Donnell

Amnesty International has faxed me with urgent representations on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry Deputy, but you have had some latitude from the Chair. I take it that the item is agreed?

Ms O'Donnell

It is very important that it should go on the record that this motion——

An Ceann Comhairle

I hesitate to ask if there is anything relevant on the Order of Business.

Mr. B. Ahern

It is even less relevant to talk about pending legislation. One way or another the Taoiseach will attend an important summit on 16 and 17 June. A number of important issues have to be dealt with at that summit which are fundamental to the future of the country. Considering that the Dáil will not be sitting, will Fianna Fáil be consulted before final decisions are made on any important issues? It is only right as we are dealing with issues such as neutrality, the EU budget, the Commission and many others. We should be consulted.

In the normal course of events they would be discussed in the Dáil. In recent general elections there was a moratorium on IDA announcements of any kind. I seek confirmation from the Taoiseach——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. D. Ahern

And lotto money.

An Ceann Comhairle

Ciúnas, let us hear the Deputy in possession without interruption.

Mr. B. Ahern

It might sound frivolous to those who have not been in Government before but this practice was followed by successive Taoiseach in at least ten or 12 Dáileanna.

Mr. G. Mitchell

There are no jobs to announce.

Mr. B. Ahern

Is that still the position? I am not referring to lotto money, although I am aware millions of pounds were given out yesterday.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us have good order, please.

Mr. D. Ahern

This is the last time they will all be together.

Mr. Cowen

Bank robbers anonymous.

Mr. Dukes

Has the Deputy had a meeting with them lately?

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us not sully our proceedings now. Let us hear Deputy Bertie Ahern without interruption from either side of the House.

Mr. E. Byrne

We all know about the company he is keeping — Gerry Adams.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Byrne should desist.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Look at who is talking.

Mr. N. Treacy

Where are the printing machines?

Mr. D. Ahern

At least, we can spell "development".

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Cowen

Bank robbers anonymous.

Mr. Sheehan

The Deputy is a fair old bank robber himself.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

The Deputy should withdraw that remark.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I respectfully submit that these goings on should be left to the hustings.

Mr. B. Ahern

That is very good advice. As a former Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach would know there is a convention in the Civil Service since its foundation that civil servants act in a particular way during general elections. This is set down in guidelines of which the Minister of Finance is aware. Given that there are now political people working in ministerial offices, will this convention continue?

Mr. D. Ahern

The Taoiseach will have to consult with Dick.

The Taoiseach

I will have no difficulty in having consultations with the Opposition parties at any time where that is in the national interest. I will be happy to have consultations at any time on European matters. There will be no deceleration or acceleration of the rate of IDA announcements in the next few weeks. Unlike previous occasions, the rate of announcements by the IDA and the rate of job creation is unprecedented.

Mrs. O'Rourke

And phoney.

The Taoiseach

There should be no interference for any reason with the flow of announcements or the making of business arrangements for the announcement of new employment opportunities for our people.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Taoiseach manipulates them.

Mr. J. Walsh

Knock, knock.

The Taoiseach

Any guidelines issued in regard to the matter to which the Deputy referred will be respected.

Mr. D. Ahern

We will be watching.

Miss Harney

We should all be very happy as the sun is out this morning and the rainbow will be out in a few weeks.

(Interruptions.)

Miss Harney

The Minister, Deputy Dukes, does not like sound bites but if one cannot say it in a sound bite it is not worth saying.

Mr. Dukes

That is the story of the Progressive Democrats.

Miss Harney

Will the Taoiseach indicate when it is proposed that the Dáil will reconvene after the general election?

The Taoiseach

The rainbow always prevails over the shower.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T. Kitt

There is some shower over there.

Mr. D. Ahern

The rainbow is like Knock Airport, an apparition.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy John O'Donoghue.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Donoghue

It is nice to see that, as always, the Taoiseach has taken his prompting well from the Marcel Marceau of the rainbow.

Mr. Spring

Explain that to Jackie Healy Rae.

Mr. Dukes

We have a new literary Fianna Fáil.

Mr. O'Donoghue

Following the Brink's-Allied raid on 2 February 1995 the Minister for Justice and the Government promised this House that they would introduce regulations to regulate the security industry as soon as possible. Since "as soon as possible" clearly does not mean approximately two and a half years——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised in this area?

Mr. O'Donoghue

It is promised in relation to regulations. Given that the Government has failed to introduce these regulations, will the Taoiseach give an assurance to the House before he and his party sail off into the deep blue yonder that he will support them on the Opposition benches?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Creed

The Deputy will be the security for Jackie Healy Rae.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has raised a serious question, which the Government has been addressing. There is a need for regulation of the security industry. However, it is important to recognise that this industry has many types of manifestation where different types of regulation are appropriate. The Government has established an independently chaired working group which includes the industry to draw up the necessary regulations. This matter is of considerable importance and I thank Deputy O'Donoghue for raising it.

Mr. Cowen

Yesterday the Taoiseach seemed to indicate on the Order of Business that it would be impossible for the Minister for Health to appear before a committee of the House. The Minister for Health subsequently suggested that he would like to appear before the committee if he had time. Will the Taoiseach provide this time before he pulls down the shutters on this Administration, or does accountability mean nothing, particularly given that the man beside him has been a paragon of virtue in that regard for a long time?

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter was the subject of extensive debate in the House during Private Members' Business yesterday and Tuesday and I will not permit a rehash of those proceedings now. The Deputy may not proceed along those lines and must find some other way of dealing with the matter.

Mr. Cowen

I will seek another way. As you have often stated, a Cheann Comhairle, you are the defender of the rights of Members of the House in terms of the proceedings. This committee will not meet because the man who is supposed to be leading the country has decided it will not meet.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have no control over committees of the House.

Mr. Cowen

The Minister for Health has indicated that he wants to come before the committee.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House should be slow to interfere in the internal affairs of a committee.

Mr. Cowen

The Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Minister for Social Welfare lecture us about accountability——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please resume your seat, Deputy.

Mr. Cowen

——yet it has been decided that we will not have a debate. Their arrogance and contempt will be judged by the people.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please resume your seat, Deputy.

Mr. D. Ahern

On a point of order on that matter——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy, do not persist. I will not allow a repeat of the debate that took place on this subject. Please desist.

Mr. D. Ahern

We look to you to defend our rights.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is right.

Mr. D. Ahern

A committee of this House was requested to meet in relation to this matter. There appears to have been some misunderstanding. The Government Deputies did not attend the meeting yesterday in regard to the Brigid McCole issue and the Minister coming before the committee.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must repeat it is not for us to interfere in that committee's——

Mr. D. Ahern

At the direction of the chairman of that committee, it was arranged that a meeting would be held at 2.30 p.m. today. Somebody is playing cat and mouse with the committees of this House.

Mr. Cowen

Will the Taoiseach ensure we can meet at 2.30 p.m. today? He will be aware that if he dissolves the Dáil before then, that debate cannot take place. Will he give an undertaking to the House that the committee can meet at 2.30 p.m. today?

Mr. D. Ahern

He gave the chairman his instruction. He finally got him to agree.

Mr. Cowen

Has the Taoiseach nothing to say? His silence is deafening.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please resume your seat, Deputy.

Mr. T. Kitt

As the Taoiseach marches off to the Shelbourne, will he assure the House the three coalition parties are united on the legal strategy in the McCole case? I warn him that the Labour Party will hang him out to dry before the election takes place.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

We passed important legislation in this House, the Metrology Act, some months ago. I understand an inspector has not been appointed in the south east, particularly the Cork region. I ask the Taoiseach to intervene in this matter because taxi meters cannot be stamped. That is important in regard to replacing the old weights and measures, and it will be an issue in the election.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

I want an assurance from the Taoiseach in regard to the Metrology Act.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not Question Time.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

I am asking about legislation that was passed into law by this House.

The Taoiseach

To assist Deputy O'Keeffe, my understanding is that the service under the new Act for the inspection commenced on 12 May and is now proceeding.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

Will we have an inspector in the Cork area?

Mr. Davern

Deputy Sheehan can take up the matter during the election.

Mr. Sheehan

They came to me yesterday looking for Deputy Ned O'Keeffe.

Mr. Callely

Yesterday the Taoiseach refused to comment on Government demands for savings in the health services which will further impact on the provision of services. As we all know, rainbows do not last and before this rainbow comes to an end——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Callely

——will the Taoiseach agree to withdraw those demands?

Mr. Rabbitte

Where did Deputy Callely get the Brylcream?

A Deputy

The Brylcream kid.

Mr. Callely

The Taoiseach will not comment.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Callely must desist.

Mr. N. Ahern

Will the Chair clarify the position in relation to questions on today's Order Paper? Under the precedent set last year, when the last day of the session was cancelled due to a funeral, will the Taoiseach arrange for written answers to be issued today should events take place before 2.30 p.m.?

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand there will be no replies to questions if the House is dissolved.

Mr. D. Ahern

There never was. Where is openness, transparency and accountability now?

An Ceann Comhairle

The proceedings are becoming disorderly.

Mr. McCreevy

It is cabin fever.

An Ceann Comhairle

I intend to proceed promptly to the business of the House. I presume Deputy Martin wishes to say something relevant.

Mr. Martin

All Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats members of the Select Committee on Social Affairs wrote to the secretariat of the committee requesting an urgent meeting at some time yesterday to discuss the McCole case and the Minister's response. That committee was disgracefully treated by the Executive. A deliberate attempt was made to ensure the committee would not meet to hear the reply of the Minister for Health. There has been no accountability and transparency on this issue. There has been a deliberate attempt to prevent the truth from emerging about who authorised the legal strategy against the late Brigid McCole. Shame on the Taoiseach.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. N. Treacy

In view of the advertisements placed in today's newspapers by the Minister for the Environment, has the Government decided it will be necessary for many of its members to remain outdoors permanently?

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Will the Taoiseach acknowledge, as this rainbow fades from the political landscape, that even William Wordsworth understood that the rainbow comes and goes?

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy for the injection of poetry. I will now proceed to item 24b,——

Mr. Cowen

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not make a point of order while I am on my feet.

Mr. Cowen

I can raise a point of order. You are proceeding without allowing a Member to raise a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will not make a point of order when I am on my feet putting a proposal to the House.

Mr. Cowen

Can I make it when you are finished?

Mr. Martin

He is entitled to make a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on Deputy Jim Higgins to move item 24b.

Mr. Cowen

I know this is the Ceann Comhairle's last day in the Chair, but I wish to make a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made it a hectic day.

Mr. Cowen

I wish to make a point of order as I am entitled to do.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, I am dealing with the business of the House.