I call the Taoiseach to take the remaining part of the Order of Business.
Order of Business
It is also proposed to take No. 4(i), Taxes Consolidation Bill, 1997, First Stage; No. 4 (ii), motion re Second Stage of Taxes Consolidation Bill, 1997; No. 5, Motion re Private Members' Business Rota; No. 6, Motion re Restoration of the Children Bill, 1997 to the Order Paper; No. 1, Europol Bill 1997, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage and, subject to the agreement of No. 6, the Children Bill, 1997, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.
It is further proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 4(i) shall be decided without debate and subject to the agreement of No. 4(i), No. 4(ii) shall be decided without debate; and Nos. 5 and 6 shall be decided without debate. Private Members' Business shall be No. 2, Eighteenth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1997, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.
Is the proposal for dealing with items Nos. 4 (i) and 4 (ii) agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with items Nos. 5 and 6 agreed to?
I cannot agree to the decision to take these matters without debate because I am deeply dissatisfied with the way the Taoiseach has treated the House today in regard to the terms of reference for a tribunal into a serious matter and his attempt to conceal embarrassing facts behind a fog of rumours for which there is no substance and which he has not substantiated. His approach to this matter appears to be a device to keep his Government together rather than deal with the restoration of faith in Irish politics.
That is nonsense.
(Dublin West): Will the Taoiseach be specific for the benefit of a Member who cannot participate properly in this House because of restrictive Standing Orders? Will he clarify when I will receive a copy of the proposed terms of reference of the new tribunal which under pressure the Taoiseach announced to the media before speaking to the elected Members?
The Deputy can raise that matter on the Order of Business. It is not related to this proposal.
(Dublin West): This is the Order of Business.
The proposal has not been adopted yet.
Before the Chair puts the question I wish to ask about the time allocation which should be decided before we deal with this issue.
No, Deputy.
I ask for the Chair's indulgence.
Question put: "That Nos. 5 and 6 shall be decided without debate."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 73 ; Níl, 66.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Ardagh, Seán.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Brady, John.
- Brady, Martin.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Ray.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Carey, Pat.
- Collins, Michael.
- Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Kitt, Michael.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Lenihan, Conor.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, James.
- McGennis, Marian.
- McGuinness, John.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Moloney, John.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Flynn, Noel.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- Daly, Brendan.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Fleming, Seán.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Fox, Mildred.
- Hanafin, Mary.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Healy-Rae, Jackie.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Keaveney, Cecilia.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Malley, Desmond.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Power, Seán.
- Roche, Dick.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wade, Eddie.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Bell, Michael.
- Belton, Louis.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Burke, Ulick.
- Carey, Donal.
- Clune, Deirdre.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Enright, Tom.
- Farrelly, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gormley, John.
- Hayes, Brian.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Joe.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McDowell, Derek.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Mitchell, Olivia.
- Naughten, Denis.
- Noonan, Michael.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- Owen, Nora.
- Penrose, William.
- Perry, John.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ring, Michael.
- Sargent, Trevor.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Timmins, William.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wall, Jack.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Callely; Níl, Deputies Barrett and Howlin.
Question declared carried.
What are the terms of reference of the inquiry the Taoiseach proposes to set up?
The Government Whip will communicate with the Deputy as soon as he receives the final copy from the Attorney General.
Could the Taoiseach not tell the House the terms of reference? He obviously knows what they are. He spoke about them last Sunday. I am asking him to tell the House. We do not want terms of reference that involve inquiries into all sorts of unsubstantiated rumours because the Taoiseach will not deal quickly with the direct and simple question about the Minister for Foreign Affairs.
What I have suggested is that the matters regarding the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the related lands will be dealt with up front as the first part of the tribunal and any other related matters will be dealt with as the second part of the tribunal. The terms will be given to the Whips shortly.
(Dublin West): I agree that the rezoning coalition of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, which acted so effectively and ruthlessly not just in north Dublin but in west Dublin, should be investigated. What proposals has the Taoiseach to provide adequate time for a debate on the terms of reference? Is he aware of how compromised his Government is becoming in the Northern Ireland talks because of the ongoing controversy——
That is not in order on the Order of Business. The time for any debates is a matter to be decided between the Whips.
I do not necessarily disagree that we need a separate tribunal. I said months ago that a parallel tribunal would be most welcome.
That is not in order.
Why is the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Burke, not included in the terms of reference directly?
That is not in order.
He is implicitly included. It is clear that in relation to the 756 acres of land in question, he is the Member of this House who will be involved. I have to deal with the allegations and facts as I find them. I am not in a position to make a judgment on these other matters and I do not intend running around looking for them. However, if other people say there are other matters, they should be looked at, and the terms of reference will be decided on that basis.
In respect of the debate tomorrow, will the Taoiseach indicate what time will be made available? Will he indicate also whether amendments from the Opposition to the terms of reference will be dealt with in committee, that is, in a format which will allow proper debate about each of the terms of reference and allow the Opposition to put forward legitimate changes to them and have them debated and decided upon in an orderly fashion?
That is not a matter for the Order of Business. It is a matter to be decided between the Whips. This matter has been debated for almost an hour already.
I wish to put a question not about the debate tomorrow but about the terms of reference.
It is a matter for the Whips.
It is not a matter for the Whips. The terms of reference are a matter for the House. Will the tribunal complete and present its report on the transactions involving the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Burke, before dealing with all the other matters, and, if so, how long will it take?
That matter can be discussed tomorrow.
I answered that question an hour ago. Unfortunately the Deputy did not listen. The answer is "yes". It is hoped that the first phase will be completed on 31 December. As Deputy Bruton knows, we cannot instruct the tribunal when to report, but we can at least give it a target by which we hope it will be completed.
The matter raised by Deputy Richard Bruton is not a matter for the Whips. I was advised formally that the time to be allocated for the debate tomorrow is one hour. If that is the case, it is not acceptable. I ask the Taoiseach to give a commitment that whatever time and format of debate is needed will be forthcoming. It would not be worth having a meeting between the Whips to divide up an hour's discussion time. Is the Taoiseach prepared to give adequate time to have a full debate on the terms of reference and allow for amendments if such are requested or needed?
That matter can be debated tomorrow when the proposal is before the House.
I have no difficulty with what the Deputy says. I nearly always follow sensible suggestions from the Whips.
(Dublin West): With respect, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, it is not for the Whips to decide in conclave on a matter. The Taoiseach should inform the House.
When there is a proposal on the Order of Business tomorrow, the House will decide on it.
(Dublin West): The Taoiseach should inform us now whether the same arrangement for amendments will be proposed by him as was proposed recently for the second tribunal, and whether appropriate time will be set aside for those.
The House will decide that tomorrow.
Why did the Taoiseach not consult the Opposition about these terms of reference as he did in the case of the previous tribunal?
That is not in order.
Prior to taking questions this afternoon I was at a Cabinet meeting following which the Attorney General, as the legal officer to the Government, was completing the terms of reference. I have not yet seen the final draft, even though a meeting is arranged between the Whips. We have acted honourably and speedily in this matter.
Why did the Taoiseach not follow the precedent set in the other tribunal when he consulted the Opposition before there were any terms of reference?
It did not do much good because we ended up spending three hours discussing and voting on what I thought had been agreed.
Does the Taoiseach object to votes in this House?
The Deputy changed his tune because of The Irish Times editorials. He was led and fed by the media.
(Interruptions.)
I ask Deputy Bruton to please sit down and remain seated while the Chair is on his feet. We have debated the matter for one hour and I am proceeding to the next item on the agenda.
It seems the Taoiseach resents the fact that we have votes in this House on Government proposals.
I asked the Deputy to sit down.