Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Feb 1998

Vol. 486 No. 5

Adjournment Debate. - Commission on the Status of Men.

Mr. Hayes

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle, for selecting this matter as an item on the Adjournment. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Wallace, and wish her well in her Department.

Some weeks ago I raised this issue in the public arena and attempted to generate a debate around the issue of how men are perceived and perform in modern society. I am pleased we can at last debate this issue in the House because it is one that has been debated throughout the country during the past number of weeks. That debate is useful.

As with any creation, like any Frankenstein created, one is never sure of the final outcome. I have been open to suggestions from a variety of sources, since I first mooted this idea, as to how best to proceed from here to empirically study the issue of men and how men perform in modern society in a number of key areas. My proposal for a commission on the status of men is one among many. I am open to the views of the Minister and the Government about how to proceed.

For the first time, in 1970, the Commission on the Status of Women drew together much of the national and international work on the issue of pay and conditions for women. If it was right in 1970 and in 1997 to address the issues of women's place in the labour market, women's place in the home and their conditions therein, surely it is right that we address the issues of men's place in education, male suicide and male health because we have never had a focus on these issues.

Little work has been commissioned here on this issue. A commission could draw together much of the work that needs to be done. There is one graphic example of the need for such a commission. A conference took place last year in Helsinki on men and men's health. At that time the Irish Government could not produce any attitudes or opinions which men had because we had not commissioned the work. By proposing a commission on the status of men we could put on the record new work which must be undertaken in this area. There is evidence that boys are falling behind girls at school, particularly in relation to literacy. There is evidence that suicide among young men has trebled in the past ten years or so. There is no unit in the Department of Health and Children dealing with male health and the particular problems of testicular cancer. No screening process has been put in place to deal with that issue. I use these examples not to say they are the be all and the end all of the issue but merely to state we need to address, research and quantify the problems. The issue of male unemployment and its effects, particularly in unemployment black spots, must be addressed. I am open on the issue of whether we research this topic from Department to Department or by means of a commission or some other structure, but at least we can begin to debate the matter. It is right and proper that this issue becomes a mainstream political issue as in other developed countries. We are beginning to address the new problems experienced by men in society. This is not a question of rolling back the stone for women or of diminishing the fantastic results that have been achieved as a result of the feminist movement in the past 20 years. This is about facing up to new problems and new situations in which men find themselves. By responding, as I have suggested, we will send out a positive signal to men in our society.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Miss M. Wallace)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I do not see a need for a commission on the status of men. I have listened with interest to the arguments which have been advanced in recent weeks for such a commission. Among the diverse issues which have been raised in this context are the high incidence of suicide among men; health care for men; the decreasing role of men in teaching; the rights of fathers in relation to their children; how advertising presents men; the problem of male crime and how boys fare in the education system.

I accept these are serious issues and I do not wish to belittle them. I recognise the economic and social developments of the past 20 years or so which have had some adverse effects on men. I have in mind, for example, the disappearance of many of the traditional forms of male industrial employment; the alienation and marginalisation of men in disadvantaged urban housing estates, and the steady attrition of the farming population.

What is being mooted, however, is a commission on the status of men. The establishment of such a commission would seem to suggest that, in some way, men stand at a disadvantage in society. I cannot accept this. I recognise men face a diverse range of difficulties and that, for some men, the social and economic developments of recent decades have been threatening, disturbing or downright unpleasant but, taken in the round, men hold the greater power in society. I do not believe there is a fundamental problem with the status of men in society.

The suggested creation of a commission on the status of men seems to imply that the problems which have historically faced women throughout the ages have been resolved and that women have overtaken men as part of a privileged sector of society which needs no further official support. This is far from true. While we have succeeded in changing the role of women in society dramatically over the past 30 years, it is clear there is still much to be done if men and women are to enjoy equality of status and opportunity in the workplace and society as a whole. The Government is still committed to the promotion of gender equality and, for the moment, recognises the greater needs of women in this regard.

It would be wrong for men or women to believe that Government unthinkingly take sides in the battle of the sexes. This is not the case. It is the Government's responsibility to deal with the reality of life as we find it and provide remedies for injustices which are apparent in society. What we are trying to achieve is a measure of real equality between men and women. In Ireland today women earn substantially less than men. Statistics show that the average hourly earnings of women who work in manufacturing industry are only 70 per cent of those of their male counterparts. Women tend to be segregated in the low paid sectors of the economy such as the clothing, assembly and services sectors.

Like other European countries, we have experienced a strong increase in labour market growth. In the 25 years from 1971 to 1996 the number of women at work grew by 212,000, reaching 448,000 in 1996. This compares with growth of 23,000 in male employment over the same period. There are more jobs for women and more women have been successful in advancing within employment than at any time before. These figures, however, belie the reality in so far as women at work are concerned. Growth in jobs has been concentrated in low paid, part-time and other atypical work and it is to these jobs that many of the new entrants to the workforce, primarily women, are recruited.

The number of women in key decision-making roles in public and private organisations is conspicuously low. Women are under-represented at board level in major manufacturing and industrial concerns and on the boards of service and financial institutions. Below boardroom level, the world of work is segregated, vertically and horizontally, with men occupying the majority of management, professional and supervisory positions and women, by and large, responsible for delivery of routine, clerical and support services.

Women continue to be under-represented in political life, at national and local level. The composition of the Houses of the Oireachtas is ample testimony to the continuing imbalance between men and women in the political sphere.

All in all, the work of advancing equality for women is far from complete. Ours is still a society in which men earn more than women and predominate in the decision-making processes, whether in political, economic, social or cultural life. Men are not a beleaguered species. They do not need a commission to act as a counterbalance to the Commission on the Status of Women.

The establishment of a commission, on whatever subject, is not something to be undertaken lightly. To function effectively, a commission needs the commitment of a well-qualified and interested membership. It requires a dedicated and adequately resourced secretariat. It must have coherent and well-defined terms of reference and a specific timeframe for delivery of its report. There is no point in establishing a commission whose remit is diffuse and amorphous. Not alone am I unconvinced of the need for a commission on the status of men but, given the range of issues which have surfaced in recent discussions about this issue, there is a real difficulty in giving such a commission an appropriate focus. To repeat a comment made on "Today with Pat Kenny", I could see such a commission turning out to be a commission on the status of everybody. This would be contrary to the principles of efficient delivery of public services and targeted prioritisation of issues which underpin the strategic management initiative.

While I accept there are serious problems facing men in society, I do not see a commission on the status of men as being the way to deal with such problems. The difficulties faced by men are diverse and require varied solutions but men continue to hold a dominant position in society. Not alone do I not see a need for such a commission but it would give the wrong signal about equality between men and women and be wasteful of time and resources.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 February 1998.