Vol. 487 No. 1
2 Ms McManus asked the Taoiseach if he will make changes to the allocation of portfolios or responsibilities of Ministers of State, particularly in relation to the responsibility for different areas of child care; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1596/98]
3 Mr. Shatter asked the Taoiseach which Minister has responsibility for children's legislation and child care services; the nature of the responsibilities relating to children vested in each Cabinet Minister and Minister of State in relation to children's legislation and children's services; and the reason, if any, for the change in Government policy in regard to ministerial responsibilities in this area. [1926/98]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together. The Government at its meeting on 21 January 1998 appointed Deputy Frank Fahey, Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children with special responsibility for children, to be also Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and at the Department of Education and Science. The allocation of responsibilities between Departments is not being amended.
The Minister of State will co-ordinate the activities of all these Departments in the child care area. He will be supported in this task by a cross-departmental team of officials, who will report to him directly. The Government yesterday made orders to delegate ministerial functions to the Minister of State at the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Education and Science. These arrangements will expedite implementation of the Government's initiatives to address issues in this area.
Deputies will be aware that the report discussed with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, at her meeting with the UN committee at Geneva was submitted in April 1996. It was Ireland's first report under the UN Rights of the Child Convention, ratified in September 1992.
The Government recognises that co-ordination of child policy is a key element in safeguarding children's rights in our society. I am satisfied the new arrangements will ensure the efficient and effective delivery of services in the child care area.
Will the Taoiseach accept the Government has been floundering on the issue of the protection of children, that it has been back-tracking and indecisive? Will he accept he must bear responsibility for the failure of the Government to address this issue? Will he accept responsibility for the fact that on day one the position of the Minister of State in charge of children was downgraded? As a result of the decision in January, the position is the same as the previous status of junior Minister.
Will the Taoiseach accept there is a crisis in terms of the protection of children, that there are problems of duplication, lack of decision-making and lack of resources? Will he accept this issue cannot be dealt with by a junior Minister who is not in a position to face up to the crisis that exists? The Taoiseach said that 1,000 cases of child abuse are pending in the Eastern Health Board region alone. Will he accept responsibility and do what a previous Taoiseach did in regard to the drugs crisis? He took charge of it and dealt with it to good effect. As leader of the Government, will the Taoiseach accept he must take charge of co-ordinating the various responsibilities within Departments rather than leave the work to a junior Minister who has neither the authority nor the resources to deal with the issue?
I do not agree with the Deputy's remarks. I remind her that her colleague, Deputy Rabbitte, when Minister of State, co-ordinated the drugs task force.
The Taoiseach had a hands-on role.
I chair the committee on social exclusion.
We are talking about a crisis for children. Dr. Anthony Clare describes it as a shambles.
The Deputy should not interrupt when the Taoiseach is replying.
In regard to co-ordination, responsibility for children is held, to some extent, by all Departments. It is desirable that whoever is responsible for this brief —0 in this case the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children — has access to officials across Departments. The three Departments mainly involved in this area deal with issues such as young offender facilities, availability of places, staffing, funding, child welfare, the Children Acts, the control of children and issues relating to the expert group on child care as well as the pilot child care initiative. The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, is involved in a range of issues across Departments and he has been doing his job very successfully in recent months.
On the complaints from the UN, the report which dates back to 1994-6 states that while noting the establishment of various Government bodies responsible for the welfare of children at national and local levels, the committee regrets the lack of co-ordination among those bodies in promoting and protecting the rights of the child. In light of the views of the UN committee, we considered what could be done to ensure the Minister of State would have a better co-ordinating role. The change made in January and the order signed yesterday subsequent to that change will help in that regard. We will continue to reflect on what can be done in this area. The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, is being briefed by the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation on the recent issues in that area and is briefed on legislation from all Departments dealing with this issue. That is his co-ordinating role.
There is no doubt the issues affecting children in this society are immense, however, I do not accept that they are in crisis. The figures I mentioned yesterday, while rising, have been prevalent for years. We must address these issues, including the resources and facilities to overcome the problems. I am glad to say Governments are dealing with them in the best way they can but will never be good enough; as long as there is a problem Governments will not be good enough. Nevertheless, there is a seriousness in addressing these issues which was not there in the past.
Will the Taoiseach clarify what the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, will do following the order made on 21 January 1998 that he did not do prior to that date?
He will now have responsibilities for implementation of the Children Acts and all matters relating to juvenile offenders, regardless of Departments. He will also have responsibility for matters under the School Attendance Acts, 1926 and 1967, and control of powers attaching to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which he did not have in his original order last summer.
Will the Taoiseach explain why a delegation of ministerial function order was made on 16 September 1997 apparently conferring on the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey responsibility for dealing with the Child Care Acts and the Children Acts, 1908-9, which deal with the juvenile justice area? Will he also explain why the Minister of State did not deal with the juvenile justice area until the making of this order yesterday?
The Minister of State had a role in these areas but because he was not delegated Minister of State to the Departments in question that role was not as strong as it might otherwise have been. When I examined these issues it appeared it would be better to make him Minister of State at these Departments where he could have more authority to deal with the issues.
Like his predecessor.
His predecessor did a good job in these areas. He was responsible for the Children Acts, the Censorship of Films Acts, the Censorship of Publications Act and the Video Recordings Act. However, he did not have responsibility for all relevant areas across all Departments.
He was in the Department.
That is correct, however, the criticism of the UN was based on that situation. Children's issues are covered in all Departments, as recent events illustrate. It is undesirable that the Minister of State with responsibility for this area should be delegated orders in all Departments. However, he should have responsibility for the Children Acts and the School Attendance Acts when he is attempting to deal with the major problems, including children in crisis who are young offenders. He must also have the capability to link with officials in relevant Departments. That can create difficulties, which is why the previous and other Ministers of State were not assigned to all Departments. As far as possible, I would like to see the interdepartmental group have access to a Minister of State with responsibility for children. I would also like to see him have responsibility for children's issues in so far as they relate to every Department. That is what we are seeking to do.
Would the Taoiseach not accept that unlike the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, Deputy Currie was appointed at the outset as Minister of State at the then Department of Justice, the then Department of Education and the then Department of Health? Would he agree that at a time when it was recognised that it was a desirable development in Government that a single Minister be appointed to all three Departments and have a co-ordinating function in relation to children, it was a major error on his part not to give the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, that co-ordinating function at the outset?
Exactly.
Would the Taoiseach also agree that the child care system is in crisis because there has been no coherent policy at Government level for more than seven months and that the Government has been locked in paralysis? In the context of the functions of the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Mary Wallace, who dealt with the Children Bill before Christmas which amended guardianship and custody laws, is he now advising that she no longer has responsibility in this area and that it has been taken over by the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey?
I do not accept there is any section in crisis.
What about the 1,000 people who reported abuse to the Eastern Health Board and why is the board unable to intervene?
The Deputy should allow the Taoiseach to reply.
Does the Deputy want me to quote the health board figures for recent years?
I hope the Taoiseach gives me the health board figures for 1997.
I quoted figures for 1997 yesterday. I also quoted the figures for 1996, which was the greatest year for crises.
The Taoiseach does not have the relevant figures and he does not know what is happening at present within any health board.
The Deputy should allow the Taoiseach to reply.
Last year we based our changes to the co-ordinating role of Ministers of State at Departments on the Public Service Management Act, which is good legislation and which allows a Minister to have a co-ordinating role. It also allows for the establishment of cross-departmental teams to support a Minister of State. That is still desirable, otherwise it would be necessary to make the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, the Minister of State with responsibility for children at each Department. I do not believe that is necessary although it is desirable that he be Minister of State at the Departments which cover the main issues involved.
There has been considerable activity across all of the issues involved in young offending and additional money has been allocated to the health boards to assist them in their work in this area. Money which was previously not provided has also been allocated to the disadvantaged areas to deal with children on the streets, sleeping rough and located in the various detention centres. These measure have been undertaken on the initiative of the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey.
However, there are other issues involved. We are taking note of the findings of the UN Convention, which make clear, for example, that the level of co-ordination in this area, even when it was across three Departments, was not sufficient. We are trying to respond to them in the most holistic way possible. The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, will do this and if further delegate orders are necessary we will implement them. At this stage, he has identified areas and responsibilities across various Acts and Departments where he believes he needs powers and we have given power to him.
We accept that resources have been allocated, which is very worthwhile. However, will the Taoiseach repeat his statement on the critical situation that has arisen over a period? He must understand and accept that people will be shocked to hear him say, in the great Fianna Fáil tradition, that there is no crisis.
To load increased responsibilities unto a Minister of State who is not in a position to deliver on his functions because he is not a member of the Cabinet will not solve the problem. Will the Taoiseach look at the needs that exist on the issue of co-ordination? We have already had the shaming experience of the Government appearing before the UN committee and being subject to its damning report on the situation today — not last year, nor the year before.
The responsibility lies with the Taoiseach to take a serious and over arching initiative across Departments. He is the only person with the authority to make a real difference to the serious and critical problems which we must all recognise. If they are not even recognised by the Taoiseach we will never succeed in overcoming them.
The Deputy is making a statement rather than asking a question.
Nobody is more aware than I am of these problems. I deal with them every day in my constituency and I spent much of my political life on the Eastern Health Board. I do not need people who are less aware of these problems to remind me of them. The UN report made some harsh points but in fairness to the Ministers, systems and agencies, it also made many positive comments. The House should not belittle the excellent work done by the children's agencies or the Ministers who dealt with this matter from 1992 until 1996.
The report said further consideration of the co-ordination role was needed. It made the point that almost every Department dealt with matters relating to children. For example, children can be directly related to agriculture because they work on farms and they can also be related to fisheries because they go out on boats. The report's point was that all these activities should be considered and that it was not good enough to deal only with the Children Acts, the School Attendance Acts and other legislation and ignore the other aspects. The Government is endeavouring to cover all aspects. The Minister of State with responsibility for children can attend Cabinet meetings any time it is discussing an appropriate Bill or related issues. Incidentally, I have dealt with the delegation orders and other matters relating to children at Cabinet because I am interested in such matters. I have endeavoured to work under the Public Service Management Act in terms of the necessary changes and I will continue to do so.
I agree with the Deputy on one matter. Unfortunately and regrettably, Ireland is at a point, which other countries reached, where events which happened up to 30 years ago are now coming to light. That is good in so far as people who have lived with misery, fears, difficulties and emotional trauma throughout their lives are concerned. We must deal with these matters coming to the surface. Most of the people involved in the cases to which I referred yesterday are no longer children. They are now adults but these matters must be addressed. The issue of the number of people sleeping rough must be resolved. The problems of drug and alcohol addiction among young people must also be solved as must the issues of lack of accommodation and education. All these issues are important and every Minister, not just the Minister of State with responsibility for children, must address them. I assure the House that the Government intends to do so.
Will the Taoiseach clarify, based on the figures he gave the House yesterday and his qualification today, how many reported alleged cases of child abuse are currently before the Eastern Health Board awaiting investigation and in respect of which investigations have not commenced? Will the Taoiseach also clarify how many Cabinet meetings the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Fahey, has attended to deal with children's issues since the Government was formed?
The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, attended all the meetings of the sub-committees. I have dealt with the issues that arose at Cabinet.
The Minister of State has not attended a full Cabinet meeting. He did not attend the meeting on the investigation into the Irish Amateur Swimming Association.
The Taoiseach, without interruption.
The Minister of State attends meetings of the Cabinet sub-committees when children's issues are discussed.
The Minister of State has not attended a full Cabinet meeting.
No, he has not attended such a meeting.
The Taoiseach gave the impression that he had attended full Cabinet meetings.
I said he can attend at any time it is desirable for him to do so.
The Minister of State has not attended any meeting.
He has not attended because I have handled the issue for him.
This is despite all the difficulties at present.
Almost 2,400 cases of abuse have been dealt with by the health board in the last year. Approximately 40 per cent of those cases related to child abuse and approximately 1,000 cases of abuse were confirmed. They did not all involve child abuse but when one considers the number of cases examined, the figure is almost 1,000 cases of abuse.
How many reports have not been investigated?
That is a separate question.
How many reports of child abuse are currently on the books of the Eastern Health Board that it has not commenced investigating? My information is that there are many hundreds.
That is a separate question, Deputy.
It derives directly from the Taoiseach's reply.
It does not derive from it.
There is a crisis in this area. Hundreds of reports need to be investigated.
The Deputy should table a separate question on this matter.
Arising from the Taoiseach's reply earlier, how many such cases are currently on the books of the Eastern Health Board?
That question is out of order.
The Taoiseach does not know the answer.
If the Deputy wants statistics on the Eastern Health Board, he should table a separate question.
The question is about the capacity of the health board to investigate children at risk at present. The Taoiseach does not have the information.
The Deputy should table a question.
As I stated yesterday, there are approximately 1,000 abuse cases. Only some of the total of almost 2,400 cases have been confirmed and investigated. Nevertheless, in terms of sexual abuse, the figure is approximately 1,000 cases.
How many cases have not been investigated? How many cases are awaiting investigation? Children are at risk and the Government has not put in place the necessary resources in terms of funding and co-ordinating policy.
The Deputy must desist from interrupting.
It is a national scandal.
What did the Deputy's party do about it?
The Government should have provided what is needed in the budget this year. It is scandalous.
The Deputy's Government ignored the issue.
What did the Deputy's Government do over two and a half years?
The Government is trying to put right what the Deputy's party did not do.
The Taoiseach does not even know the exact information.
The Deputy's Government reduced the funding from £10 million to £5 million last year.
Order, please. I call Deputy Currie.
The Taoiseach could not give coherent replies last week and that was still the case yesterday. He does not have the exact information or he is concealing it.
My name has been mentioned favourably in connection with my role as Minister of State with responsibility for children. When the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, was appointed, will the Taoiseach explain why, in view of the favourable reputation I had in that office, the Deputy was not given the same job with delegated responsibilities in the Departments of Education and Science and Justice, Equality and Law Reform? The two pressing problems I was dealing with included issues dating back to 1908 in relation to the Children Bill and legislation relating to truancy to replace an Act of 1926. Why was the Minister of State not given that job initially with delegated responsibility?
The Taoiseach is correct that matters relating to children cover more than the Departments of Health and Children and Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Why did the Taoiseach not follow the example of the previous Government which had a Cabinet committee on children's affairs?
It met three times.
Five Cabinet Ministers attended that committee which I chaired as Minster of State with responsibility for children.
That is correct.
Why was that committee not continued? Does the Government intend to re-establish it? I pose these questions, not on a party political basis but because of the serious situation that exists which should be shared by the House. I am trying to be helpful to the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, and ensure that he receives extra responsibilities. Has the Government considered the suggestion made when I was in office that an administrative arm should be supplied to the Minister of State? This would involve an Assistant Secretary General with responsibilities not only in the Department of Health and Children but also in the Departments of Education and Science and Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Co-ordination is the key to this problem.
Co-ordination is the key. The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, continued to progress the same Bills and has the same responsibilities as Deputy Currie had when he was in office. The Public Service Management Act was introduced to allow for the establishment of cross-departmental teams and to ensure that officials could answer directly to Ministers, thereby avoiding a position where a Minister was attached to three or four Departments, with different staff and offices. The Deputy is aware that system does not work well.
Without responsibility.
The Public Service Management Act was designed to avoid that type of position. The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, is responsible for, co-ordinates and chairs the cross-departmental group. He can go anywhere in relation to children's issues. Because of the criticism it was deemed more appropriate that direct responsibility be given to him. Under the Public Service Management Bill he continues, with the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, to be able to check children's issues anywhere. Regarding the departmental committee, I do not intend arguing about how often it did not meet as against how often it met. The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, reports to the group I chair which looks at issues of marginalisation, social disadvantage and social exclusion. That group deals with children also, and Deputy Fahey reports on the types of cases mentioned by Deputy Shatter. The difficulties are not discussed in isolation; we discuss how, through the Departments of Education, Social Welfare and Justice, these matters can be resolved. That committee is doing a fine job.
Given the scale of abuse emerging now and the scale of abuse in swimming, it seems likely that more and more cases will be reported. Co-ordination at the highest level is essential, but I want to focus on resources. Does the Taoiseach intend to ensure that there will be an emergency response to an emergency? This situation is different because increased publicity and ongoing awareness will lead to more and more reports. How will the Taoiseach provide resources for front line staff who will deal with those reports effectively?
I accept that times are different. People are more confident now about coming forward with cases from the past. We are obliged to investigate such cases, and more resources are required. That is one reason the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, received part of the resources necessary so early in the new year. He has received a substantial budget increase for a number of projects undertaken with Barnardo's and other organisations. There is a lack of resources in the health boards but groups like Barnardo's can have some of their programmes funded by Deputy Fahey. He has not been slow in reminding everyone of the costs of dealing with this issue, but at least a start has been made. We are nowhere near resolving this problem; the figures have doubled in less than five years. However, when one examines the figures, it can be seen that quite an amount of cases are dropped as unfounded. The figure I gave yesterday for overall abuse represents 40 per cent of cases reported, but that figure is still very high. We will have to make more resources available. We have begun this process and will continue it.
I question the basis of the figures used yesterday by the Taoiseach. I have not been able to substantiate them within the Eastern Health Board region yesterday. Perhaps he could clarify this matter.
The Taoiseach has spoken of Deputy Fahey's onerous and wide-ranging responsibilities. I believe it is not possible for a Minister of State who straddles a number of Departments to do this job effectively. It needs a senior Minister and I hope this will be accepted in future. How does the Taoiseach expect Deputy Fahey to carry out his responsibilities properly given he has a staff of only ten? What proposals does the Taoiseach have to increase that figure substantially to deal with the problem adequately?
The Taoiseach has spoken of 40 per cent of all reported cases of child abuse being sexual abuse. There is clearly a major problem with regard to other forms of abuse such as physical abuse and neglect. These are areas of major concern to those working in the social services, and the Taoiseach should consider broadening the terms of reference of the working group set up recently to investigate abuse. Does the Taoiseach have any other proposals to tackle this growing problem?
I note Deputy Shortall's comments. The Cabinet is examining the possibility of moving towards a broader forum on these issues. The statistics I have are based on Eastern Health Board figures from 1996——
They are wrong.
There is no basis for those figures.
The basis comes from their documents. There were 2,368 cases reported. The number of cases under investigation was 640, or 27 per cent. The categories were emotional abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse and neglect. The documents go on to categories of cases confirmed and under investigation, unconfirmed cases and unfounded cases. After analysis, 40 per cent of cases were confirmed, and 40 per cent of 2,368 is 923.
Is the Taoiseach saying that 75 per cent of cases were not investigated?
I am giving figures from the health board's document. Not all cases were completed.
It is misleading to put figures in the public arena that cannot be substantiated.
They are from the health board report. I am not responsible for figures the health board puts out.
This should be re-examined.
There are only four charts. It is easy to deal with. I am conscious that there are not just sexual abuse cases to be dealt with. Yesterday I spoke of the number of cases overall.
