Vol. 487 No. 1
21 Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if he will make a statement on the type of inquiry he intends to hold in view of the recent scandal involving the Irish Amateur Swimming Association; the steps, if any, he is taking to ensure that the code of ethics for young people in sport is being implemented by the national governing bodies of sport. [3535/98]
22 Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if he will accede to the demand of persons (details supplied) to hold a judicial inquiry into a sexual abuse scandal, which will have the power to demand the disclosure of all documents and to compel witnesses to appear before it. [3540/98]
I propose taking Questions Nos. 21 and 22 together. The Government decided yesterday to appoint Dr. Roderick Murphy, SC, Chairman of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, to investigate certain matters relating to the affairs of the Irish Amateur Swimming Association, IASA, its Leinster Branch and affiliated clubs.
In arriving at its decision, the Government took account of all the issues arising, including the concerns of victims, the desire for privacy of a number of victims and their families and the wider public policy issue of how best child sex abuse cases should be handled in such circumstances in future.
Having weighed up all these issues, the Government took its course of action in the interest of the victims, children currently in swimming and children in sport generally and in order to secure a speedy inquiry.
Dr. Murphy has been asked to conduct his investigations in private and to report to the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation by 10 March 1998. Subject to the need to preserve the confidentiality of victims, his findings will be made public. The matters which Dr. Murphy has been asked to report on are the following: the arrangements which the IASA, the Leinster Branch and affiliated clubs, had in place since 1975 for the detection and prevention of child sexual abuse; the procedures, including functional responsibilities, which the IASA, the Leinster Branch and affiliated clubs had in place for securing compliance with these arrangements; the manner in which complaints in relation to sexual abuse made to the IASA, the Leinster Branch and affiliated clubs were dealt with over that period; the manner in which any complaints in relation to two named coaches reported to the IASA, their Leinster branch or affiliated clubs, were handled by them over that period; the arrangements which the IASA, all their provincial branches and affiliated clubs now have in place to detect and prevent child sexual abuse, including arrangements while complaints are being investigated, and sanctions; and the adequacy of arrangements now in place for the protection of children in swimming.
A code of ethics and good practice for children's sport in Ireland, developed by a specially established expert committee under the auspices of the Department of Education was published in June 1996 and issued to all the governing bodies of sport. The code provides detailed guidelines and assistance for sports organisations in the proper treatment of children in sport. The National Coaching and Training Centre, having specific regard to the code, subsequently incorporated a module on ethics in sport in its ongoing national coaching development programme, which is run in partnership with the governing bodies.
It is planned to hold a seminar later this year involving the governing bodies which will include a review of their experience to date with the implementation of the code. In the interim, while the code of ethics is widely regarded as a model of best practice for the protection of children in sport, I propose to reconvene the expert group who compiled the code to consider the report of Dr. Murphy's investigation in the context of the need for any further additions to the code following his findings.
The Minister indicated last Thursday that he would set up a limited inquiry into this matter. Government sources subsequently stated there would be a judicial inquiry into the matter and on Tuesday last the Minister reversed that decision. This has hurt the victims and their families. In view of the Minister's confusion in recent days, does he agree that neither he nor his Department are equipped with the skills and experience to deal with such a serious and sensitive issue? Does he agree the matter would be more appropriate to the Department of Health and Children or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform? Many of the families involved indicated their displeasure at yesterday's announcement. Does the Minister agree the inquiry is flawed given that it cannot compel witnesses to attend or requisition documents? To add insult to injury he appointed a member of the IASA, a member of a swimming club and a man known personally to many of the people involved in this issue. Does he agree this casts grave doubts over the effectiveness of the investigation? Will he reconsider the announcement he made yesterday given that he reneged on the solemn commitment he gave in a press statement last Thursday to consult the families before the appointment of a chairman?
The Deputy raised a number of matters and based much of his argument on the question of compellability. There is every indication I will get full co-operation with the inquiry I originally intended to set up. Who are we trying to compel? I have no difficulty compelling people. I have been told all documents will be produced. Are we trying to compel the people who came to me believing, as newspapers reported at the weekend, that suddenly there was going to be a judicial inquiry and they felt they would be compelled to attend? The only people that will be compelled to attend are the victims who want the matter dealt with in private and in confidence. The indications are that there will be full co-operation with the inquiry and that all documents will be presented. I am prepared to go along with that.
I hope the Deputy is not casting aspersions on Dr. Murphy. Surely a person who has experience in the sport of swimming would be beneficial to the inquiry rather than a person from the Law Library with no experience in the matter. I hope the Deputy agrees that the appointment of Dr. Murphy, a man who is beyond reproach and chairman of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, is the best person to bring this matter to a successful conclusion.
I met the victims and representatives of the IASA last week. An inquiry is necessary in the interests of the children participating in the sport today. There are 5,000 children involved in the sport and 1,500 coaches, 99 per cent of whom are beyond reproach. I want to ensure the children participating in swimming and coaching on a daily basis are safe. I would agree to a veto of the chairperson, but unfortunately the victims rejected my proposals out of hand. Consequently, the Government proceeded yesterday with a private independent inquiry, the terms of reference of which were broadened to make the Government responsible for the person conducting the inquiry. There is not any confusion about the matter. The only people left to compel are those who want to attend in private and in confidence to get to the truth.
I am not sure the Minister understands the complexities of this matter. Initially he flagged up the possibility of a judicial inquiry. We had meetings with parents and victims yesterday who told us they will not co-operate with the inquiry. If those who were abused do not co-operate, what is the purpose of the inquiry? They were also under the impression that the Minister would consult them about the chairmanship and terms of reference of the committee. Such consultation did not take place. Irrespective of the position he held, why did the Minister suggest a chairman whom he knows has a vested interest?
The Deputy should withdraw that remark, this is a sensitive issue.
That is very wrong.
Does the Minister consider Dr. Murphy, who was a chairman of a swimming club at a time when sex abuse was reported, should be appointed to this position? If the inquiry is to be independent, does the Minister consider it wise to appoint a person without first consulting the people concerned? The Minister should answer that important question because from our information the people concerned do not intend to co-operate with an inquiry under the chairmanship of Dr. Murphy. It was unfair to name him before consulting the parents and victims.
We are dealing with a publicly funded association that should be responsible to the Minister and to the Oireachtas for the way it carries out its business. Is it true that notices were brought to the attention of people in positions of influence in those clubs but they took no action or took internal action but did not follow it through? That is the information we are getting. The committee which I chair will set up a procedure which I hope will deal with some of these cases so that we can reassure parents that their children will be safe in participating in sporting activities. I am sure that is what the Minister wants. We should come clean with the parents and the victims on how we intend to proceed with this matter because they expected something more specific from the Minister in terms of protection. I do not want to compel——
I would prefer if Deputy Ferris asked a question. I remind the House the third priority question cannot be taken if it is not taken within 20 minutes.
I realise that but everybody will agree this set of priority questions are very important.
I accept that. Will the Deputy ask a question please?
I have asked several questions and perhaps the Minister would answer them.
I empathise with the Deputy. I hope he understands this is a sensitive issue. I am trying my level best to get as many people as possible involved. The Deputy should withdraw the remark that Dr. Murphy has a vested interest but that is a matter for the Deputy.
There is a conflict of interest.
That is far from the truth although Dr. Murphy has children who are involved in swimming. Are we losing sight of the facts and getting lost in legal jargon, compellabilities, subpoenas and so on? This is a sensitive issue and the Government and I are trying to deal with it in the best interests of the parents and victims. Yesterday I was doing a balancing act to try to get everybody involved. There are two sides to this matter. There are those who say they will not co-operate with me and those who want to come forward but in confidence and in private. I am trying to include them all and I ask them to co-operate with me. Given that people can come in private and in confidence I have more than I would have had under the terms of a public judicial inquiry. They all have a story to tell. A letter I received in confidence asked me to call a public judicial inquiry. An extract from the letter states:
I have no desire to take legal action. I do not want press coverage. I want you to know and discover the facts as they are. I have no idea how extensive was the abuse meted out to children and youths or how many swimming clubs were involved. I am pleading with you as my Minister for Sport to hold a judicial inquiry and to investigate the Irish Amateur Swimming Association.
Please make it possible to encourage every victim to come forward now and give evidence. The extent of this cancer must be discovered.
I am trying to get every victim to come forward. I say to victims and those who are asking for a full judicial inquiry that in that scenario I cannot get every victim to come forward in my attempt to get to the truth. In the interests of the families and victims the Government has proceeded along this course. In the long term there is every indication I will get co-operation.
As late as this morning a meeting was arranged, through the Taoiseach, at which the Attorney General met the legal representatives of the victims and had a discussion on this matter. I encourage all those involved to come forward and to co-operate with this inquiry.
I do not question the integrity of the chairperson. The chairperson, being a member of a swimming club and a member of the IASA should not have been placed in that position. I regret the Minister's indecisiveness in recent days.
Will the Deputy please ask a question?
Given that the extract quoted by the Minister — I could read four or five letters also — sought a judicial inquiry and in view of the veil of secrecy that has covered so many inquiries in the past will the Minister consider an inquiry that would compel witnesses but preserve the identity of the victims and their families? That could be achieved if there was flexibility and a willingness to co-operate with the victims. In view of the opinions given by the families yesterday and today will the Minister reconsider his position?
As regards the compellability of witnesses, the witnesses are the only people who would be compelled. I am asking for the co-operation of all concerned. If the people who previously called for an open judicial inquiry realised what they would get into, they would have a rethink. We have to get to the truth. There is a public policy issue here. If one were to take a case such as this, it is conceivable that we could have a judicial inquiry into every club, organisation and community group into every situation where the courts have not come forward with the answers. The State has not been negligent in this case. This is different from other areas. The courts have acted and a man has been sentenced. As a result of that man's actions the State has realised those victims require help and counselling. A number of questions remain unanswered. That is what we are trying to get as a result of the court case. If we had co-operation from all sides we could get those answers.
While all of us want to ensure the Minister's efforts have the fullest co-operation, the information coming to us is that the people we want to assist do not want to participate in the procedure set down. Will the Minister agree that the newspapers intimated that the Minister had said he would consult the families and agree the terms of reference? I have no problem with the chair but given that he was so closely involved with swimming, being chairman of a particular swimming club, will the Minister agree he put him in an invidious position because of a possible conflict of interest? The Minister should have cleared his name both with himself and with those whom he is trying to assist. Will the Minister agree that the people we are trying to investigate were publicly funded? The State is not negligent. We gave funds to people who turned out to be negligent in pursuing cases that were brought to their attention.
A question please, Deputy.
Will the Minister agree we should have gone down another road of continuing the dialogue initiated with the legal representatives of the victims who came to see him in the knowledge that he would address the problem?
I have already informed the Deputy I am continuing, as late as this morning, to have dialogue with the legal represesentatives of the victims. I would encourage that and I am grateful they agreed to come and have dialogue with the Attorney General on the terms and any questions they may have. I want to continue to meet these people. The Government and I respect the wishes of the victims. If I take one route I am excluding the other. For a start, as the Taoiseach said yesterday, this is the best initial way to proceed with this very complicated problem. If we can get the co-operation of the parents we will succeed.
It is a matter of opinion but it is of benefit to the inquiry to have an independent senior counsel with a knowledge of the sport of swimming and its structures. We should not pre-empt Dr. Murphy's findings, we should give him a chance. The question of whether the inquiry should be established by the Department of Health and Children was raised. I am responsible for this matter and must ensure the 5,000 children who enter the pool at 5 a.m. each morning are safe. There are 1,500 coaches who are under a cloud. Many of them work on a voluntary basis.
The Deputy was unfair to Dr. Murphy. I do not want the issue to be clouded in any way. Dr. Murphy is an outstanding gentleman. I met him for the first time recently and he has an excellent reputation and a deep interest in swimming. Given his experience, I am sure we will find the answers that the court was unable to find.
Will the Minister agree that the most effective way to protect children in sport is to ensure full implementation of the code of practice published in l996? Will he agree that unless the full report — not an edited version — containing Dr. Murphy's findings is published the cloud of uncertainty will remain? How does he intend to ensure the people who may be guilty of abuse are brought before the inquiry?
I agree that we have to ensure the code of ethics is implemented. He may recall that my predecessor, Deputy Liam Alyward, initiated an inquiry to investigate the allegations made against Mr. Gibney. I do not know what happened when the Deputy took office, although he did publish a code of ethics in l996 for which I compliment him.
Is the Minister sure? He should be careful about rumour.
An inquiry was initiated but it fell on the change of Government. A pro-active approach has been adopted. Before this matter blew up a workshop had been organised in Limerick for next October and the code of ethics had been issued to all national governing bodies of sport. This indicates that the Department has not been reactionary in dealing with this matter. The report will be made public taking account of the need to respect confidentiality. I encourage people to come forward.
Will the report be published in full?
That is the aim but it will be a matter for Dr. Murphy. Deputy Ferris stated that Dr. Murphy was involved with a committee of a swimming club at a time when there were reports of child abuse. That is incorrect. The Deputy should withdraw his remarks.
I was not raising questions about the man, rather I was asking if the Minister was aware of this information——
Does the Deputy wish to withdraw his remarks?
I withdraw them if there is any inference about Dr. Murphy. I wish to ensure he will be independent. That is what the parents and those who have been abused want.
As the time available for priority questions is exhausted, Questions Nos. 24 and 25 may be taken in ordinary time.
