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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 17 Feb 1998

Vol. 487 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Trade Union Recognition Bill, 1998: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

On behalf of the Labour Party I am proud to introduce the Trade Union Recognition Bill, 1998, and commend it to Dáil Éireann. Following lengthy consultations with both sides of industry, the Labour Party believes that the growing problem of denial of the basic civil right to trade union representation by employers can only be resolved by legislation to strengthen the long standing industrial relations procedures.

The current serious trade union recognition dispute at Ryanair highlights the urgency for enhancing the powers of the Labour Court as this Bill proposes to do. While Ryanair has made a significant contribution to the growth of air transport in Ireland especially over the past five years, the success of the company is largely due to a very dedicated and hard working staff and to the policies of deregulation of the industry implemented by the State.

The outrageous bullying by Ryanair management of young, poorly paid baggage handlers who wish to be represented by SIPTU is deplorable and should cease immediately. The arrogant and insulting refusal of Ryanair management to attend a Labour Court hearing is equally reprehensible and must be addressed by this House.

It is notable that commentators from across the political spectrum have condemned Ryanair's appalling attitude to the democratic wishes of its staff and to the experienced industrial relations machinery of the State. The Taoiseach, Deputy Ahern, has rightly castigated the old fashioned "tooth and claw capitalism" as personified by Michael O'Leary and Ryanair management. However, if the Taoiseach wishes to be taken seriously with regard to his comments on the behaviour of Ryanair management, he should accept this Labour Party Bill and allow it to proceed to Committee Stage. I challenge him to do this.

Although innovative in some respects, Ryanair management is a Victorian dinosaur in terms of industrial relations. For the Labour Party and the labour movement the crass antics of Ryanair management stir unhappy memories of the birth of our great tradition. Our founders, James Connolly and Jim Larkin — my predecessor in Dublin North East — battled similar capitalists to Mr. Ryan and Mr. O'Leary in 1912 and 1913. Almost a century later we will not countenance the destruction of our movement's hard won civil and industrial democratic rights.

The Ryanair dispute is the latest in a series of trade union recognition disputes which have increasingly alarmed workers and their union representatives over the past decade. Between 1985 and 1996, for example, an average of 11 cases annually concerning trade union recognition were referred to the Labour Court. Since 1985, at least 14 trade unions have been involved in trade union recognition disputes including SIPTU, ATGWU, MSF, MANDATE, IDATU and AEEU. Many of these disputes have arisen in the small indigenous private sector with pay and conditions below industry norms.

Some multinational companies with similar pay and conditions have also been affected. Apart from Ryanair the number of high profile trade union recognition cases include companies such as Pat the Baker, Elan Corporation and Nolan Transport which is involved in legal action currently before the Supreme Court. Many of these disputes were referred to the Labour Court under section 20 of the Industrial Relations Act, 1969. More recently a number of such cases are being heard under section 26 of the Industrial Relations Act, 1990. Many leading trade unionists believe that the 1990 Act worsened several of the industrial rights of workers and the status of trade unions and should be amended by the Oireachtas.

Article 40.6.1º of the 1937 Constitution guarantees "the right of the citizen to form associations and unions". Many people regard this statement of a fundamental human right to clearly imply the right to be professionally represented by a trade union. As one trade unionist said recently, the right to belong to a football or golf club surely means that the member might take part in football or golf. However, the courts have interpreted article 40.6.1º as not granting a corresponding right to citizens to have their right to be professionally represented accepted by employers.

In Dublin Colleges ASA v. City of Dublin VEC in 1981, for example, the High Court held there was no corresponding obligation on an employer to recognise a staff association for the purpose of negotiating pay and conditions of employment. This decision mirrored an earlier judgment in Abbott & Whelan v. ITGWU and Southern Health Board and others in 1980 when Judge McWilliam held that “there is no duty placed on an employer to negotiate with any particular citizen or body of citizens”.

Of course the courts and the Industrial Relations Act, 1990, recognise trade union recognition disputes as bona fide trade disputes for the purpose of allowing industrial action. The Trade Union Recognition Bill, 1998, will strengthen the authority of the Labour Court by giving it the power to make a legally binding Employment Regulation Order in union recognition disputes. The adoption of this approach and the use of existing well tried industrial relations procedures avoids the constitutional barriers which have been erected by the courts on the issues of trade union freedom and freedom of association.

There is a long tradition of voluntarism in Irish industrial relations and a reluctance to resort to legislative sanctions. The nation has been well served over the past half century by institutions such as the Labour Court, the Labour Relations Commission and the Employer Labour Conference. Indeed, the vast majority of Labour Court recommendations are accepted by employers and trade unions.

The extension of social partnership from 1987 has underpinned the incredible economic prosperity Ireland has enjoyed in this decade. However, from the PESP to Partnership 2000, deep anxiety has grown among trade unions at the failure of employers to grant recognition and the growing threat which this poses to the continuance of social partnership and economic success.

Paragraph 9.8 of Partnership 2000 states:

Partnership is an active relationship based on recognition of a common interest to secure the competitiveness, viability and prosperity of the enterprise. It involves a continuing commitment by employees to improvements in equality and efficiency; and the acceptance by employers of employees as stakeholders with rights and interests to be considered in the context of major decisions affecting their employment.

The same paragraph established a high level group composed of the Departments of the Taoiseach, Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment, ICTU, IBEC and the IDA to resolve the problem of non-recognition of trade unions by employers and the growing threat this posed to partnership and industrial peace. The report of the high level group, issued before Christmas, proposed a code of practice which did not endorse the ICTU request for an enhancement of the Labour Court by giving it the power to issue a binding recommendation on pay and conditions in recognition disputes. This Bill attempts to remedy that failure.

The Labour Party is determined to insist on a fair approach to the fruits of our economic prosperity. A key part of the Labour Party's fairness agenda is the resolution of trade union recognition disputes in a balanced way, taking into account the rights of workers and employers and utilising the well tried existing industrial relations process. In drafting this legislation I have consulted with leading trade unionists, employer representatives and the IDA. In particular I am grateful to the President of SIPTU, Mr. Jimmy Somers, for his encouragement and lengthy advice. I also received valuable assistance from Mr. Brendan Hayes of SIPTU and Mr. Richard Humphries, the Labour Party's legal adviser.

The Trade Union Recognition Bill also draws heavily on the Irish Congress of Trade Unions submission to the high level group established under Partnership 2000. That submission, entitled "Trade Union Recognition — The Right to Bargain", proposed to resolve the serious problems presented by employers who refused to allow professional representation to their staff by setting out a framework agreed between congress and employer organisations which used existing experienced industrial relations procedures. The framework culminated in an Employment Regulation Order on pay and conditions. However, I have not followed the system of incremental levels of recognition proposed in the Irish Congress of Trade Unions submission.

Similarly in the Bill, on behalf of the Labour Party, I have focused in a pragmatic way on procedures and outcomes rather than on the formal status of recognition. I fully agree with the conclusions of a paper on trade union recognition in Ireland by Jack McGinley, which indicates that there are three remedies open to the Government with regard to trade union recognition without immediately going the constitutional amendment route, a route we may have to pursue at some stage. Two of these concern a European directive — we are aware of the recent comments of Commissioner Pádraig Flynn on this matter — or a statutory code of practice from the Labour Relations Commission. The third, an extension of the powers of the Labour Court, is the objective of this Bill.

The explanatory memorandum makes it clear that the Trade Union Recognition Bill does not interfere with the legitimate rights of either side of industry but establishes a framework within which those rights can be harmonised where a dispute arises. The question of trade union recognition is defined as "one of balance between the rights of both sides of the industrial relations equation". Where a recognition dispute arises, either party to the dispute may refer it to the Labour Relations Commission in accordance with section 1 of the Bill. If the LRC cannot resolve the dispute, either party may then refer the matter to the Labour Court under section 2.

Under section 3, the Labour Court is empowered to investigate the dispute, which may be done in private unless one of the parties requests the court to do otherwise and the court so decides. The Labour Court will be allowed to order the taking of a ballot of the employees in the employment or any category thereof by section 4 of the Bill. The court can decide on all aspects of the ballot, including a request to the LRC for assistance with the ballot, the category of persons entitled to vote, the manner of voting and the ballot information and facilities to be provided to employees by the union and employer.

Under section 5, the Labour Court is empowered to summon witnesses and examine them on oath and require the production of any documents. Witnesses will be entitled to the same immunities and privileges as if they appeared before the High Court and will be guilty of an offence if they fail to discharge their duties as witnesses to the dispute at the Labour Court.

At the conclusion of the investigation, the Labour Court will issue a recommendation on the matter — section 6 — and will invite the parties to the dispute to consider the recommendation and report back within a specified period. The court will not recommend that a trade union should be recognised for the purposes of this Act "unless it is satisfied that the trade union is representative of employees in the employment or a substantial category thereof". Under section 6 the Labour Court will not recommend in favour of trade union recognition if another union already "stands recognised by the employer for the purposes of this Act" for the employment or category thereof concerned in the dispute.

Under section 7 — the scope of the recommendation — the Labour Court may recommend the employer to recognise a particular trade union specified in the order or any other course of action or redress the court thinks appropriate. The recommendations of the Labour Court will be in writing and will be published — sections 8 and 9.

Section 10 is a key element of the Bill. If, after the expiry of a period specified in the recommendation, the Labour Court is satisfied that the recommendation has not been complied with and is unlikely to resolve the trade union recognition dispute, the court may make an employment regulation order under section 43 of the 1946 Act in respect of the employer and the trade union specified notwithstanding that the order is not made on the proposal of a joint labour committee. Joint labour committees, which were set up under the 1946 Act, were the inspiration for this idea in the submission by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

The employment regulation order may determine pay and conditions and provide for consultation with the trade union in relation to its members in respect of any matter on which the employer is statutorily obliged to consult the employees and in relation to disciplinary proceedings affecting a member of the trade union — sections 11 and 12. When a trade union is recognised under this Act section 12 also requires the employer to "negotiate in good faith with the trade union in respect of pay and conditions" of its members. This provision applies only if the employer decides to recognise the trade union. If he refuses recognition, section 10 applies.

Given that the employer who refuses to engage with a trade union, which can show that it represents a substantial number of employees either across the whole workforce or in a particular grade or category, faces the option of having the Labour Court determine in a legally binding manner critical employment issues such as pay and conditions, the Bill can be seen as giving the employer a powerful incentive to bargain. It is hoped that in many employments where there are fair pay and conditions this would not need to come into existence because the demand for a trade union would not arise.

Section 13 deals with the important matter of whether a trade union is representative of the employees in a recognition dispute. The union will be held to be representative of the employees by the Labour Court "if it represents a substantial number of the employees concerned" and "whether or not it represents all or a majority." That applies to a category of employment as well as the employment itself. As the explanatory memorandum outlines, this provision accords with the decision in "Federation of Irish Rail and Road Workers-v-Great Southern Railways (1942) where it was held that a trade union which represented about one-third of employees was sufficiently representative for the purposes of a statutory provision.

The Bill provides that the dismissal of an employee for reasons related to the seeking of trade union recognition shall be an unfair dismissal under the Unfair Dismissals, Act, 1977 — section 14.

Section 18 provides for summary proceedings for an offence under this Act to be instituted by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. An offence committed by a body corporate and which is proved to have had the consent or connivance of or be attributable to the neglect on the part of a director, manager, secretary or similar officer of the body corporate shall be guilty of an offence.

Ultimately, the legal sanctions applying to an employment regulation order of the Labour Court will apply to an employer who refuses to bargain in good faith under this Act. If the employer continues to refuse to comply with an employment regulation order of the Labour Court in a trade union recognition dispute, he will leave himself open to the usual forms of legal redress for employers under the Industrial Relations Act, 1946. These include continuous fines and civil actions by employees for back pay and unlimited damages and, in addition, the employer is open to injunctions until the dispute is resolved.

Section 19 gives the Minister power to make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to the Act. Section 20, the penultimate section, defines "trade union" as including an excepted body within the meaning of section 6 of the Trade Union Act, 1941. That is an important section. This follows the precedent set by my colleague, the former Minister for Labour Affairs, Ms Eithne Fitzgerald in the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997. The former Minister thus permitted staff associations and works councils to collectively bargain on working time issues. Of course, such non-trade union bodies obviously need to demonstrate their independence from an employer if they are to be accepted as bone fide employee representatives. The inclusion of non-union employee representative bodies within the scope of the Trade Union Recognition Bill, 1998, therefore, gives it a much wider remit than trade unions alone.

The Labour Party is putting in place here a mechanism whereby any employee can achieve fairness as regards their pay and conditions even if their employer refuses to deal with a trade union. This provision will also prove very helpful to employees in non-union, multinational companies, which have employee representative bodies under a human resource management structure.

Having outlined the Bill before us, I would like to deal with some of the potential objections to its enactment into law. It may be said that this Bill will be a potential deterrence to US multinationals locating and operating in Ireland. We have already heard the Taoiseach sing that mantra and we will possibly hear the Minister, Deputy Kitt, sing it tonight. The Bill poses no threat whatsoever to the human resource policies of multinationals. First, there is no suggestion in the Bill that unions will be imposed on employees who do not wish to be represented by a union. Past experience in the court ensures employers are protected in that regard.

The procedures outlined in the Bill become triggered only when a "substantial number" of employees in an employment or a category of employment voluntarily join or are involved. Second, the Labour Court will make a legally binding award only if it finds that pay and conditions are out of line with industry norms. Most multinationals contend they have pay and benefit packages above such norms, making union membership irrelevant. If that is true, they should have no cause for concern. On the other hand, if it is not true, the employees of such companies should have a fair rate of pay and decent conditions.

On the broader issue of attracting US and other multinationals to Ireland, it is generally agreed that factors other than union membership have played a far greater role. These include our outstanding and increasingly technological education system. The recent ESRI report drew attention to the fact that the education system, with the outstanding teachers and parents' court, is one of the best and most technological systems in the world. I commend the Government on the initiative it took in that regard. Other factors include our social partnership in the economy and political stability, our entry within a few short months into the Euro zone and, perhaps most of all, the fact that we speak the leading international language of technology and business as a native language.

It has been noticeable that in multinational areas where disputes have arisen about trade union membership, some of the companies that wished to be non-trade union companies here had a trade union tradition abroad. In regard to the current Ryanair dispute, the airline on which Ryanair is modelled, with a low cost culture, is South Western Airlines, one of the most successful companies on the New York stock exchange. Even though it was the model for the success of Ryanair, South Western Airlines is a highly unionised company.

We reject the suggestion that the Bill is an abandonment of the voluntarist approach to industrial relations. Recent years have seen increasing legislation of the employment relationship, with more and more aspects of the employment contract being decided by law.

In the early 1970s there was only a handful of employment law covering holidays, redundancies and employment conditions, such as the Conditions of Employment Act, 1936. In addition to equality legislation, we now have laws on unfair dismissals, collective redundancies, transfer of undertakings, European works councils, working time and part-time workers. If the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, had agreed with me some months ago we would also have been delighted to put the Shop Workers' Bill on the Statute Book.

There is also impending legislation on parental leave, while Brussels is examining the questions of national level works councils and contract employment. Recent speeches by the Commissioner for Social Affairs, Pádraig Flynn, have brought these issues to our attention. The "voluntary" in our former volunterist system of industrial relations has become extremely circumscribed, perhaps because of the impact of the modern economy and the traditions of European industrial relations into which we have been integrating over the past 25 years.

In essence, the Trade Union Recognition Bill, 1998 does not oblige an employer to recognise and/or deal with a trade union for all purposes. It does, however, put a procedure in place whereby the Labour Court can examine an employer's pay and conditions, including health and safety provisions, in relation to particular groups of employees and issue a legally binding decision on pay and conditions. Health and safety provisions are a central feature of the Ryanair baggage handlers' dispute.

If the employer refuses to co-operate with the court or accept a trade union recommendation, the court will proceed on the evidence before it from the union. In such circumstances, it is in the employer's interest to co-operate with the court.

The procedure outlined in this Bill is not dissimilar to the procedures already followed in equal pay claims. If such a claim cannot be resolved with an employer, it is subsequently referred to an equality officer who investigates it and then issues a legally binding decision. Either party is free to appeal a decision to the Labour Court and ultimately to the courts. With the imminent passage of the revised Employment Equality Bill, 1997, these redress procedures will be extended to allow claims to be made on all of the discrimination grounds of age, race and so on.

Claims under the Employment Equality Bill can be presented by individuals or groups and, as the operation of the existing equality legislation shows, some claimants will be represented by trade unions and some by solicitors or barristers. The employer does not have to deal with unions or solicitors at all. He or she makes his or her case to the equality officer and must show that pay and conditions are not discriminatory.

Fears may be expressed that to allow the Labour Court to decide on the pay and conditions of one group of employees could upset an organisation's complete pay structures. However, exactly the same arguments can be advanced against existing and impending equality legislation, especially since the European Court has opened the door to claims of indirect discrimination. The recent £100,000 award to four employees of the Irish Aviation Authority and the current discussions about the incremental and promotional rights of job sharers are cases in point. The awards certainly upset existing pay and relativity structures but only because those structures were illegal in the first place. While a Labour Court decision under the Trade Union Recognition Bill would not declare an organisation's pay and conditions to be illegal, it would amount to saying they were unfair and should be changed. That would often be the reason many workers would demand the right to join a trade union in the first instance.

The fundamental case for this Bill is the absolute necessity of fairness for citizens in all walks of life. That is the essential ideology of the Labour Party and the entire labour movement. SIPTU has rightly advanced the argument during the Ryanair dispute that, as in other walks of life, employees are entitled to professional representation in negotiations over pay and conditions. Mr. Paul O'Sullivan, a SIPTU official, noted that when Mr. Michael O'Leary received his first £14 million bounty from the share flotation of Ryanair, later to become £17 million, he would have received professional advice in his dealings with the owners of the airline. It would seem that he should at least afford the same basic privilege to the lowest paid of his workers who now seek trade union recognition and professional representation.

The list of employment legislation to which I have referred gives added weight to this argument. No ordinary employee can be expected to be familiar with the intricacies of this legislation. How can employees be expected to make effective representations, on their own behalf, in negotiations with experienced professional personnel or human resource managers without experienced professional trade union negotiators to guide them?

Even in EU countries, such as the Netherlands, where trade union membership stands at approximately 30 per cent of the total workforce, the argument in favour of professional trade union representation is accepted by most employers. In the literature which I consulted during the preparation of this Bill, I noted that employers in countries such as the Netherlands often prefer to deal with professional trade union representatives rather than people on the shop floor as trade unions have a great deal of experience in negotiation.

At recent meetings on the Ryanair dispute, several Fianna Fáil Deputies with trade union experience — that exotic breed — indicated their support for trade union recognition. One Deputy, who hails from my own constituency, spoke of fighting for this principle "till the blood ran down his face". I am not calling on this Deputy to take such drastic measures yet but l believe he and his colleagues must walk through the lobby in support of this Bill or else be seen as hypocrites. The Taoiseach and his brother, Deputy Brady and others would, in the past, have adopted the same attitude as the Fianna Fáil Deputy to whom I referred. Will they now fundamentally betray their own people's basic civil right and vote against their own history? I hope they will not and I hope the Taoiseach will accept this Bill and put in on the Statute Book.

I call on the Taoiseach himself to lead these Deputies and allow them to retain some honour and credibility by accepting this Bill. The Labour Party believes the Bill, as it stands, is an important contribution to Irish industrial relations but we would be willing to accept reasonable amendments on Committee Stage which would preserve the central thrust of the Bill, namely, to resolve the problems of non-recognition of workers' chosen representatives in their trade unions by strengthening our existing experience and institutions, particularly the Labour Court.

This Bill is a modest proposal as we are not proposing generalised mandatory recognition. I make no apologies for bringing forward a modest proposal which is hopefully balanced to recognise the rights of both sides of industry. This Bill is not a blunt instrument of mandatory recognition but a carefully tailored exercise to establish a framework in which trade union recognition disputes can be resolved.

The Labour Party insists that it is the job of the Dáil to put in place laws which ensure that citizens are treated fairly. It cannot be denied by most fair observers that, in the Ryanair dispute and other disputes over trade union recognition, very low paid workers and workers who experience difficult work conditions have been treated very unfairly and have been denied the fundamental constitutional right to be represented by a professional trade union.

Until recently, the pay and conditions of the great majority of workers were organised by collective negotiations. With a significant growth in the number of employers who do not want to deal with unions, a clear responsibility lies with legislators to ensure that citizens are dealt with in a fair manner in the workplace. This is what the Trade Union Recognition Bill, 1998, is designed to do and I commend it to the House.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Upton.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dr. Upton

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this timely and comprehensive Bill prepared by my colleague, Deputy Broughan. It is with a good deal of pride and pleasure as a member of the Irish Labour Party and the labour movement that I take the opportunity to speak on the Bill and commend it to the House.

Deputy Broughan has provided a comprehensive overview of the background to, and detail of, the Bill. I would like to speak about its wider benefits to Irish industry and social partnership. Deputy Broughan has been researching and drafting this Bill since late summer of last year. I was interested to read newspaper reports at the weekend which indicated that Fianna Fáil spin doctors were attempting to portray the introduction of this Bill as a cynical exercise. Nothing could be further from the truth and it is disreputable of certain individuals to say otherwise.

As Deputy Broughan pointed out, since 1986 at least 14 trade unions have been involved in recognition disputes. Many of these disputes have occurred in small companies where either the owner or the management have attempted to bully or, worse, to intimidate workers who wished to join trade unions and to be professionally represented by a trade union in negotiations with their employers.

My party colleague, in researching and drafting this Bill, consulted widely in the trade union movement, with employers' groups and with other interested parties. He has drawn from existing case law regarding trade unions and he has had the foresight to take account of the submission of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to the high level group established under Partnership 2000 to consider this issue. The Bill was presented to and debated by the Labour Parliamentary Party and I wholeheartedly welcome the opportunity to speak on it tonight.

The Bill is extensively researched and is supported by the trade union movement. If this Government has good sense it will accept the Bill. It will make a substantial difference to the lives of many ordinary people whose rights have been trampled upon by certain disreputable employers. The principle the Bill elaborates on and protects is central to the successful operation of the economy. Of the many factors which have contributed to the recent upturn in the economy, social partnership and cohesion have been the most important. In that regard, I pay tribute to the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, who played a constructive role in developing the present system of social partnership. It has proved of immense worth to the economy and of great practical assistance to workers and employers in addition to other sectors of society.

The Taoiseach is aware that the logic behind the operation of social partnership dictates that the Trade Union Recognition Bill must be allowed to proceed. Trade union leaders in recent weeks have issued warnings about the strain the current Ryanair dispute is putting on Partnership 2000. This follows a budget which was deeply unpopular with the trade union movement, particularly trade unions which represent people on low pay. The Taoiseach is aware of the concerns of the trade union movement regarding the direction his Government is taking and the role being assumed by some employers. Tonight he is presented with an opportunity to address those concerns by accepting this Bill. It will be another slap in the face for workers and the trade union movement if the Government cynically rejects it.

The Government cannot put Partnership 2000 at further risk. It is aware of the seriousness of the current situation and it cannot hope to sit idly by in the expectation that the Ryanair dispute will dissipate. The continuance of social partnership requires real involvement by the Government of the day. It is incumbent on the Government to send a strong signal to Irish workers and to the trade union movement of its commitment to deepening social partnership. The opportunity to do so is presented tonight and it should not be allowed pass.

The principle of trade union recognition is central to the welfare of many workers. As economies develop and expand, negotiations regarding pay, conditions, health and safety become ever more complex. It is not reasonable for ordinary workers who are often raising families to be expected to adequately present their case to employers, human resource managers and, increasingly, professional consultants. It is unfair and unrealistic to expect such workers to be able to engage in that type of activity. To do that effectively they need the advice, help, resources and experience of the trade union movement. That is becoming increasingly obvious as that movement, in the last 20 to 25 years, has consolidated to such a degree that a high level of research and expertise is available to people who represent workers.

The workers in Ryanair want to have that level of professional representation at their disposal. They want to benefit from the best case possible being made on their behalf when they get involved in negotiations with their company. No more than that is being sought. They seek a level playing field, if that cliché can be used, when they enter negotiations with employers. It is unfair and improper to expect workers to remain as gifted amateurs, as it were, making their case against hard-boiled professionals who have a range of data and consultancy expertise on which they can draw. It is unrealistic to expect workers to compete in that environment. The workers in Ryanair are seeking to make their case on a fair basis and by resorting to the best professional advice available. That is their objective in seeking recognition of their trade union.

The Bill is a progressive step in the history of industrial relations and in the development and deepening of the social partnership and cohesion which has fundamentally underpinned the success of the Irish economy. I congratulate Deputy Broughan on his hard work in producing it. It is not a gimmick or opportunistic response to the Ryanair problem. The Deputy was given responsibility for the Bill after the 1997 general election and what is before the House is a fine tribute to his efforts.

I wish to identify what I perceive as important common ground between all parties in the House. There is a shared view of the major contribution by trade unions and the workers they represent to the economy and to society and the importance of continuing the current national partnership. I acknowledge the Deputy's comments about the Taoiseach who played a significant role in building that partnership. There is also a shared view of the importance of extending that spirit of partnership from the national level to the level of enterprise.

The Government is committed to chapter nine of Partnership 2000 which sets out an important series of actions to extend partnership at the enterprise level. Moreover, by injecting further resources into the Labour Relations Commission for modernising the industrial relations system, it has demonstrated its commitment to addressing the industrial relations challenges arising from national and international competitive trends, such as furthering joint management of change and finding ways of avoiding crisis driven change, strengthening the negotiating capacities of parties at the workplace level by building up effective practices, procedures and structures and by assisting the parties at workplace level in their exploration of new manufacturing concepts and new attempts to forge principles and models for the conduct of industrial relations.

I also share many of the concerns expressed about the dispute at Ryanair. The Taoiseach has been forthright in his views on this matter and I am at one with him in this regard. It is a matter of considerable disquiet that the dispute at Ryanair is continuing. I regret that the company declined the recent invitation of the Labour Court. The Labour Court provided the parties with an opportunity to clarify the issues, as it is most important to establish the facts in this dispute. What has Ryanair to fear about discussing this matter in the Labour Court? In doing so it will go some way to re-establishing trust between management and the workforce in dispute.

There has been a public debate about this matter and calls from a number of quarters for action. A period of reflection by the parties to the dispute is now called for. I urge the company to consider how it proposes to manage its human resources now that it has become a substantial employer and a major player in the Irish airlines business. I urge the employees and SIPTU to examine how they can best contribute to the development of the company and the attainment of improved working conditions.

Confrontation or coercion of either party is not the way forward. Perhaps the parties, in the course of their reflections, could examine the partnership provisions in Partnership 2000. Other companies and their employees have taken the partnership route already; others are attempting to do so. Why should the situation at Ryanair be any different?

Why does the Minister of State not call in Ryanair?

I have been and remain in contact with the parties with a view to finding the means towards a resolution. In addition, the chairperson of the Labour Court has confirmed that the court is keeping the matter under review and is prepared to facilitate the parties in any way. I urge Ryanair to take up the Labour Court offer. For the Governments' part, we will not hesitate to use such powers as we have to contribute to the settlement of the dispute. Ultimately the responsibility for the resolution of this dispute rests with the parties directly involved.

It should not be overlooked that union recognition, though long time an issue, with occasional high profile disputes, is not a perpetual preoccupation. The number of recognition disputes dealt with in the Labour Court in recent years was ten in 1979; 17 in 1994; nine in 1995; and seven in 1996. I understand that in the Labour Relations Commission the numbers vary between 1 per cent and 3 per cent of all cases.

In interpreting these data it is well to remember that some recognition disputes relate not to the issue of recognition per se but to grades not unionised in a unionised company and to inter-union transferability and resultant recognition issues.

Moreover, I would emphasise the necessity of not approaching this issue of trade union recognition in isolation from developments which are taking place in the European Union and both our inward investment and trading partner countries. Recent EU enactments in this area are confined to consultation and information mechanisms and employee representative structures and did not specifically legislate for compulsory trade union recognition.

We simply cannot deal with this matter in isolation from wider economic developments. Nor should we deal with it in the context of a localised dispute in an indigenous Irish company, no matter how much we might dislike the present situation.

The Government is keenly aware of the contribution that trade unions have made, and continue to make, to economic and social developments. Social partnership has facilitated the social partners to work together with the Government in the development of the prosperity and competitiveness of the economy. Advances in social inclusion have also been substantially facilitated and indeed brought about by this working together.

The development of social partnership and its very inception have been largely based on the long tradition of free collective bargaining in the industrial relations arena. It is in the context of this free collective bargaining that progress on trade union recognition is to be made.

For many years the parties in the House have supported voluntarism in industrial relations. lndeed, only last Friday in a debate in this House on aviation policy Deputy Owen warned that it would be a bad day for management and trade unions if words such as "coercion" and "mandatory" were to become part of the language of industrial relations. Yet, that is precisely what this Bill seeks to do, to introduce coercion and mandatory sanctions into the industrial relations arena. The Government does not and cannot support the Bill.

I am surprised that the proposers of the Bill should seek to undermine the voluntary industrial relations system and its institutions — the Labour Court and Labour Relations Commission — which provide such valuable assistance to the resolution of industrial relations disputes. The impact of this would be to undermine the effectiveness of the Labour Court, in particular by assigning to the court a quasi-judicial role which would undoubtedly lead to litigation in industrial relations disputes.

A survey conducted by the Labour Court in 1995 found that 84 per cent of its recommendations were accepted by the parties concerned. This is also mirrored in the 1996 report of the Labour Relations Commission where it indicated that 81 per cent of cases that year were settled at conciliation stage. The success of the system would appear to be soundly based on the voluntarist nature of the industrial relations machinery. Both the Labour Court and the commission deal with more than 2,000 collective bargaining cases per annum where non-compulsory recommendations or voluntary settlements are issued.

The evidence everywhere is that highly legislative and adversarial procedures run the risk of creating adversarial collective bargaining relationships from the very outset. Yes, trade union recognition is a complex, difficult and controversial area. The social partners and the Government ought to work together to achieve progress. This Bill is not the way to encourage co-operation between management and employees and their representatives.

This Bill is ill-timed, ill-conceived and appears to have been formulated rather hastily.

Ask the people in Dublin North.

Deputy Broughan wants to chase the Americans out.

Will Deputies please allow the Minister to continue?

It is ill-timed because it seeks to exploit the understandably emotive atmosphere surrounding the Ryanair dispute. I do not feel that the circumstances of that dispute should be the main impulse behind change of our industrial relations machinery.

The Minister was told they are not.

Hard cases make bad law.

This would have happened without the Ryanair dispute.

It is ill-conceived because its thrust and its detail would lead to substantial litigation in the industrial relations arena and damage investment in jobs. It is hastily formulated because several of its provisions are vague and uncertain — a recipe for the legal uncertainty which leads to litigation.

It is not.

Quick-fix solutions are not appropriate for complex industrial relations problems.

The Bill is not as hastily conceived as the last one.

Deputy Broughan will have an opportunity to reply to the debate.

I did not interrupt Deputy Broughan. Does he want a decent debate? This is a democracy.

I would not have minded if the Minister did interrupt me.

The Chair does mind.

Let us have a debate.

That seems to be all the Deputy is good for.

Will the Deputies allow the Minister to continue?

Will the Minister repeat that? He is a disgrace.

I will demonstrate my contentions in my references to the main provisions in the Bill. First, I wish to set out my broad concerns. There is an adverse impact on industrial relations in it. By assigning a quasi-judicial role to the Labour Court in one area of industrial relations, the Bill undermines the effectiveness of the court in assisting settlement of other types of disputes. In addition, the involvement of the law courts in trade union recognition is likely to raise the general industrial relations temperature; to introduce a fundamental level of compulsion within the system is to depart from its essential voluntarist underpinnings. This could lead in future circumstances to other areas of compulsion in industrial relations which would be anathema to both employers and the trade union movement.

What about equality legislation?

Matters of final arbitration and determination between employers and their employees as a group in the field can only be resolved through an agreed voluntary machinery.

An assumption that an employer will concede recognition for collective bargaining purposes rather than face the threat of statutory minimum pay and conditions appears to underlie this Bill; that faced with the threat of having pay and conditions in his enterprise settled by Labour Court order the employer will opt for union recognition, in other words "talk now or pay later". It is highly debatable that employers will behave like that; the more likely route is the one of litigation. The proposal is not a convincing strategy to bring about trade union recognition.

There will be damage to investment in jobs, especially foreign direct investment. There is no doubt in my mind that mandatory trade union recognition — and changed policies that are perceived as leading to trade union recognition — would impact adversely and substantially on inward investment and employment.

Who told the Minister that?

If the Deputy persists, the Chair will have no option but to ask him to leave the House.

Hear, hear.

In particular, the consequences that such policy changes would have in relation to this country's primary standing in such important areas as electronics would be most damaging.

That is nonsense.

Finally, there will be threats to the continuation of the voluntary social partnership that has contributed substantially to economic and social life.

The hub of the Bill is in sections 7, 10, 11 and 12. These sections seek to coerce an employer to recognise a trade union for the purposes of collective bargaining on pay and conditions and information and consultation for the trade union itself. What is proposed in section 10 in relation to the making of an employment regulation order in respect of a particular employer is very much at variance with the process and procedures by which employment regulation orders are made at present. Already some 150,000 workers are covered by the system.

The essence of the JLC system is that it provides a real opportunity for the social partners to work together to establish and maintain minimum pay and conditions. The rates of pay and conditions of employment which are to be set down in an order, are the subject of discussion and negotiation in the particular joint labour committee, which is representative of the employers and workers in the sector to which the committee applies. When rates of pay and conditions of employment are agreed by a committee they are submitted in the form of proposals to the Labour Court. When the court accepts the proposals it makes the necessary ERO.

Clearly the type of employment regulation order proposed in section 10 is fundamentally different from the existing employment regulation orders provided for in the industrial relations Acts.

What is wrong with that?

I question the appropriateness of adopting the existing ERO mechanism for the purpose proposed by section 10. The use of employment regulation orders as a threat, as proposed in the Bill, will undermine rather than allow full preliminary conciliation as claimed by the proposers in their explanatory memorandum.

Co-operative industrial relations, involving full conciliation where appropriate, are a key factor in the maintenance of enterprise competitiveness. Threats, coercion and litigation will not encourage co-operative industrial relations and thus will damage competitiveness — competitiveness in enterprises and the economy's competitiveness in terms of attracting internationally mobile investment. The spectre of industrial relations battles in the courts will not maintain the international perception that Ireland is a positive place in which to locate foreign investment. Without such investment, our ability to create the jobs that we need to maintain and improve workers' living standards will be seriously eroded.

I am amazed that Deputy Broughan is so knowledgeable as to say that if his Bill is passed, nothing will change.

Well said.

There is one further point about the impact of the Bill, in practical and perception terms, on foreign direct investment. It has been argued in the past apropos this kind of provision that it is likely that the multinationals will not be affected by the Bill because their pay and working conditions are good and employees are not seeking to join trade unions.

This response is short-sighted because the perception of itself will be a disincentive to further foreign direct investment.

What kind of multinational is the Minister trying to attract?

A turbulent industrial relations environment, created as a result of litigation, will not send the sort of message to potential investors in Ireland we want to send.

The model of voluntary social partnership in Ireland is a subject of almost envious attention from other European countries.

The Minister will wreck it.

I am concerned the introduction of threat and coercion into the industrial relations arena will undermine that voluntary social partnership. From start to finish this Bill unleashes considerable potential for litigation and division, directing the parties down the road to confrontation——

And justice.

——which Deputy Broughan clearly enjoys.

Trade union recognition disputes have their origins in concern about pay and other working conditions. The Bill ignores this reality by placing exclusive concentration on providing a role for the Labour Relations Commission in the recognition element of disputes. This is not the way to facilitate full preliminary conciliation in disputes. In any event, the possibility of referral to the LRC of all the issues in an industrial relations dispute is already provided for in section 26 of the Industrial Relations Act, 1990. Procedures which are slanted towards recognition are likely to make it more difficult to resolve the pay and conditions element of recognition disputes through dialogue and conciliation, not least because any negotiations on those matters take place under the shadow of ultimate Labour Court action.

While section 10 acknowledges that the ultimate issues to be resolved in recognition disputes are those relating to pay and conditions, it would be more constructive to place the emphasis on pay and conditions at the beginning of the process rather than at its end.

One could if there was trade union recognition.

This was the thrust of the work of the high level group which reported to the Tánaiste before the end of 1997, and which Government and the social partners wish to reconvene to finish the work. I will return to that matter.

Section 3 sets the scene for the legalistic or statutory approach to the area of trade union recognition which is the basic thrust of the Bill, by setting out certain procedures for Labour Court investigations and by providing ministerial powers for the laying down of more procedures by regulations. This approach of statutory procedures for the Labour Court is at variance with the way in which the court has operated in the industrial relations area since its establishment in 1947. The long standing freedom of the court to set its own procedures has contributed in no small way to the effectiveness of the court's dispute settling services. The Bill compels the Labour Court to investigate every dispute referred. The court has no discretion. The obligation to investigate is all the more significant because section 2 empowers either of the parties to refer — not joint referral — a dispute to the Labour Court. I am, therefore concerned at the departure, provided for in this section, from the traditional freedom of the court.

Granting the Labour Court powers to order a ballot during its investigation of a recognition dispute is also likely to bring it into controversy. The Bill does not state what the ballot is to be about. Such a serious omission leaves the court in an invidious position, especially in terms of possible litigation. This difficulty is added to by another omission. Section 4 does not provide a basis on which the Labour Court is to take its decision to order a ballot. These omissions illustrate the undue haste with which the Bill was prepared.

There is also the point that the ordering of a ballot by the Labour Court may undermine the present stature of the court as an industrial dispute settling agency. This undermining is particularly likely if there are difficulties about the ballot. For example, the taking of a ballot may encourage confrontation. The trade union will seek the maximum support for a ballot which it favours whereas management may seek to discourage such support. Experience on the taking of ballots relating to union recognition in, for example, the US is that confrontation does arise.

That is democracy; it is like Dublin North and Limerick East.

The Bill will involve the Labour Court and the Labour Relations Commission in this confrontation — a scenario likely to damage the stature and ultimately the effectiveness of both. The Deputy obviously likes confrontation and I know what he is about. He has let the cat out of the bag.

There are other provisions in the Bill which grant the Labour Court powers that give it a quasi-judicial or tribunal status. Can we really expect the Labour Court to exercise two very different roles in the industrial relations arena, on the one hand, to provide a voluntary dispute settling service and, on the other, to assume the role of a tribunal or court of law? The powers for the Labour Court in the section are akin to the powers conferred on the Employment Appeals Tribunal. However, the roles of the two bodies have been very different, notwithstanding that the court has functions in relation to statutory rights, for example, appeals in employment equality cases. This assignment of powers to the court similar to those of the Employment Appeals Tribunal illustrates the fundamental change in the role of the court as an industrial relations agency.

It appears the investigation by the court, as provided for in section 3, is to include investigation of pay and conditions of the employees of a particular employer. Under other provisions of the Bill the court may make an employment regulation order setting minimum pay and other working conditions for the employer who has been the subject of an investigation by the Labour Court. The implication is that in setting the pay and conditions the court, as part of its investigation, would summon other employers as witnesses to establish a comparator for the minimum pay and conditions to be included in any subsequent employment regulation order. The direct involvement of other employers in a legal process relating to the pay and conditions of a particular employer who is in an industrial relations dispute is a vista I would prefer to avoid contemplating. Suffice to say that this is not the road to maintaining positive industrial relations.

The sum total of the conversion proposed would fundamentally alter the ethos as well as the institutions and would generate an employer search for loopholes and encourage litigation in industrial relations.

As long as Fianna Fáil is around.

It would increase confrontation rather than co-operation between management and employees, damage the perception of Ireland as a location for mobile international investment and, most fundamentally, threaten the voluntary social partnership which has served this country well since 1987.

Another area of confusion relates to the definitions in section 13 of the representivity of a trade union for the purposes of the Bill which are, at best, uncertain and vague and, at worst, seriously flawed. How would the Labour Court, or a court of law, interpret representative of "a substantial number of the employees concerned having regard to all the circumstances"?

It could consult a dictionary.

When one adds the proposed qualification "whether or not it represents all or a majority of the employees", there is little doubt that employers and even trade unions would have difficulties interpreting the provisions in this section. My conclusion is that section 13 adds to the high degree of legal uncertainty in the Bill and legal uncertainty leads to litigation. Litigation arising from section 13 may not be confined to challenges in the courts involving the employer and the Labour Court but may also involve a trade union and the court, and possibly all three.

This Bill may be novel in an Irish industrial relations context but it is not new in itself in that it appears to represent a hotch-potch of trade union recognition legislation in other jurisdictions, including the UK and the USA.

They are only working on it in the UK.

I am amazed the Deputy has come up with only a hotch-potch of various legislation given that he has been working on it for so long.

The Trade Union Act, 1975, in the UK did not in practice support the development of the trade union movement nor did it advance trade union recognition. Rather the Act occasioned a series of actions in the courts which did not benefit the trade union movement. The Wagner legislation in the US appears to encourage confrontation, particularly in the taking of ballots. Also, there is little evidence that the density of trade union membership in the US increased as a result of the Act.

Difficulties about trade union recognition are not new. Under successive national agreements efforts have been made by ICTU and IBEC to devise solutions within the voluntarist industrial relations system. The position of all Governments through the years has been that the question of whether a company recognises a trade union must be worked out between both sides and that no changes should be made to industrial relations and trade union legislation in the absence of agreement on such changes between ICTU and IBEC.

I listened carefully to Deputy Broughan's interruptions. When the Labour Party was in Government it was lobbied on trade union recognition by the trade union movement but, in those days of political prudence——

I am speaking for the Labour Party now, the new Labour Party. This is the class of '92.

——the Labour Party recognised that the system which depends on willing players deciding to negotiate and to settle differences in their own good time works and that mandatory systems would destroy it. Although Deputy Quinn, who was Minister for Enterprise and Employment at that time, knew of the trade unions' views on recognition, he did not seek to introduce such a measure because he knew it would not work. He knew it would destroy the good work of the Labour Court and that it would change the Labour Court from an accessible mediation agency into another stamping ground for senior counsel and barristers, into an expensive litigious place.

Dr. Upton

They are all tied up with tribunals.

I will illustrate Deputy Quinn's views at that time by drawing the House's attention to a reply given by him as Minister for Enterprise and Employment in June 1994 to a question from Deputy Gilmore on workers' representation. Deputy Broughan will not like this, it is not very tasty. As reported in the Official Report, 29 June 1994, Vol. 444, No. 6, col. 1275 he stated:

The question of whether or not an organisation recognises a trade union is something which must be worked out between both sides of industry in accordance with the voluntarist nature of our free collective bargaining system. There is no legislation enabling or disabling recognition. In the absence of agreement between the social partners I have no proposals to legislate in this area.

Those were the words of wisdom of the Deputy's colleague, Deputy Quinn.

He has had a conversion since then. He is now the Leader of the Labour Party.

I suggest the Deputy put those words in his pipe and smoke them.

The Minister will have to call on St. Paul.

Even under Partnership 2000, when the unions and the employers looked at the reality behind the issues of recognition, they saw that mandatory regimes presented problems. During that period, Deputy Quinn, as Minister for Finance, was perceived by many, in particular the business community, as steady and sound representing the new Labour.

We are witnessing a spectacular U-turn here tonight. While new Labour in the UK has dumped its outdated ideological baggage we are witnessing old Labour at its worst. Deputy Broughan knows well that by proposing this measure he will achieve nothing but noise and heat to inflame opinion, to ingratiate himself and his party to the members of trade unions and——

What about Fianna Fáil's shop stewards?

——to pretend to them that it is by regulation rather than by negotiation that pay and conditions of employment can be determined. I consider trade unionists to be more mature and reflective people than does Deputy Broughan. They will realise that this proposal is not realistic and should be described as opportunistic. Whatever short-term appeal this proposal may appear to have, the long-term consequences are to damage the very machinery that has brought us industrial peace and prosperity.

The trade union movement in Ireland is strong. Trade union density here compares well to other European or US levels. There is a concern because some newer businesses establishing in Ireland will not deal with unions but this Bill is an inappropriate response to that problem. That matter has to be pursued in a cool and considered way and not in the heat generated by the latest hard case. This is truly an instance of a hard case giving rise to a proposal for very bad law.

Under Partnership 2000 it was agreed that our industrial relations system should be modernised, among other reasons, to develop a high trust environment between employees and managers. In that context it was agreed that proposals for dispute resolution in relation to the issue of trade union recognition would be examined by a high level group on trade union recognition. This is how I propose to proceed.

What about the ICTU submission?

That group was mandated to report to the Tánaiste by the end of the year and did so. It is clear that its work is not complete and I am pleased the Government and the social partners have agreed to finalise the group's work.

Where is the U-turn now?

The group sought to move matters forward not by legislation but by the social partners and the Government working together in the context of the existing industrial relations system. This is the route I recommend we follow, not the road of coercion and litigation as put forward by Deputy Broughan. For the reasons outlined the Government is not in a position to accept this Bill and I cannot, therefore, commend it to the House.

I wish to share time with Deputy Perry.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

In 1894 when the first meeting of the Irish Trade Unions Council met in Capel Street, Dublin, the 119 delegates in attendance represented 21,000 trade union members, directly, and 39,000, indirectly, through the various trade unions councils in Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Limerick and Drogheda. Nowadays over 50 per cent of the workforce is represented by trade unions. Almost 100 per cent of those working in the public service have trade union representation. The adjectives used in 1894 to describe the address of the President, Tom O'Connell, to that first meeting were cautious, reformist and moderate. He warned against the unnecessary use of the strike and cautioned against the unilateral position of an eight hour day. He even called for the demise of the House of Lords. It is interesting that 104 years later that debate is still going on and in the past few weeks we again heard calls for the demise of the House of Lords.

The emphasis in that inaugural year was on striking a note of respectability. Professor Patrick Lynch in his Thomas Davis lecture of the overview on history of the trade union movement speaks about the trade union in the UK and Ireland going through three stages — oppression, tolerance and privilege. Irish men and women trade union members have gone through all three stages.

In the early years of this century men such as James Connolly, Jim Larkin and William O'Brien had varying views. If all three were in the House the exchange which took place between Deputy Broughan and the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, would be in the ha'penny place compared to the differences those men had about how the trade union movement should expand and grow. They were all sceptical about political parties and saw the need to keep the trade union movement independent. However, in 1922 congress contested the election and 17 of the 18 Labour candidates were elected.

Words, such as "respectability, responsibility and restraint" describe the aims of the trade union movement in the 1920s. The membership fluctuated and did not thrive in the first decade of our independence. In 1923 the membership was 189,000 but by 1929 it had dropped to 92,000. In 1939 there was a rapid recovery of the trade union movement and by 1959 when the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, was founded trade union unity had been restored and trade unions began to take their place here in a more vibrant way.

The membership in 1994 — the latest year for which I could get information — was 677,560 of which 473,600 were in the Republic and 203,950 in the North. That breaks down as 63 per cent men and 37 per cent women.

The relationship between governments and trade unions has been chequered. In the 1960s the movement played a decisive and progressive part in the great economic and social changes which took place. The involvement of the trade union movement in the Ken Whitaker economic plans was vital to their introduction and trade unions began to take part in the formation of social policy. By 1994, the centenary of congress, suppression, toleration and position of privilege had all been experienced by the trade union movement. The position of privilege has been arrived at. I do not say that in any pejorative way. Trade unions are an integral part of the establishment, they are social partners. Trade union leaders are perceived as supporters of social stability.

Patrick Lynch also referred to the ghost of James Larkin smiling ironically in the photograph that appeared in a morning newspaper in February 1994 with the then Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds, and Peter Cassells as President of ICTU in Dublin Castle for the centenary celebrations. This was the epitome of privilege and the unmistakable outcome of a victory fought so hard by many people through the years. It was ironic that that centenary was celebrated in Dublin Castle given that many trade unionists in the early years of this century had fought against the control of Dublin Castle.

The late 1970s and early 1980s were bad years for industrial relations. We had many strikes and many issues of confrontation between trade unions, management and governments. Since 1987 we have all enjoyed the benefits of social partnership as manifested in the Programme for National Recovery in 1987, the Programme for Economic and Social Progress in 1990, the Programme for Competitiveness and Work in 1993 and Partnership 2000. The issue of confrontation has been replaced by consensus. These agreements have created a unique model of social partnership. They are the hallmark of industrial policy.

Our EU partners and the Scandinavian countries in particular are anxious to know how we managed to secure industrial peace and reach the stage where the number of man days lost has been reduced dramatically. In the period l977-81, 673,000 man days were lost in one year; this figure had been reduced to 61,000 by l993. I understand a Norwegian delegation is to visit the ICTU shortly to examine how the concept of social partnership, from which we have benefited greatly, has been developed since l987. It was the harbinger of the Celtic tiger. It has allowed all issues of concern for employers and, more importantly, employees to be realistically examined.

Paragraph 1.2 of Partnership 2000 reiterates the objectives which have underpinned the agreements. It states:

The key objectives of the strategy are the continued development of an efficient, modern economy capable of high and sustainable economic and employment growth and operating within the constraints of international competitiveness ensuring that Irish society becomes more inclusive, that long-term unemployment is substantially reduced and that the benefits of growth are more equally distributed. The strategy provides a framework within which specific issues and programmes will be developed in the normal way.

Partnership involves a shared and mutual understanding of the key mechanisms and relationships in the formulation and, more importantly, implementation of policy. There is interdependence between the partners. What is good for one is good for another. The Government can only supply much needed services from the taxes raised from the workforce. Workers' future depends on good management and marketing skills and managements' prosperity depends on a happy, united and diligent workforce. No party to the partnership can achieve its goals without the support and commitment of the others.

Under Partnership 2000 it was agreed that a high level group would be established by the Department of the Taoiseach. I understand it is chaired by Mr. Dermot McCarthy with representatives from IBEC, the ICTU and relevant Departments and it will report to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It has studied the issue of trade union recognition and in an interim report presented at Christmas there was agreement that the ideal way forward was through a voluntary code accepted by workers and management. The ICTU, however, argued for a mechanism to deal with a reluctant management which could ignore the wishes of a majority of workers. The decision that the high level group should meet again was taken before the Ryanair dispute began.

Fine Gael has always supported the concept of a voluntary code. With the Labour Party and Democratic Left, it was involved in the formulation and framing of Partnership 2000. We agreed fully that there was a need to establish a high level group to tease out all the issues surrounding trade union recognition. As the Minister of State reminded the House, I said during the debate on aviation policy, in which I dealt with the Ryanair dispute, that words such as "coercion" and "mandatory" are not consistent with good industrial relations. We must remain attractive as a location for direct foreign investment. If we are not careful, words such as "coercion" and "mandatory" will damage our image abroad. The reason the partnership agreements dating from l987 have worked is that these words have not been used. The Government, employers and workers mutually decided to omit the concepts that had caused so much damage and so many people to take to the streets in the late l970s and early l980s.

I commend Deputy Broughan for the work he has put into this legislation. While the Minister of State was wrong to criticise a member of the Opposition in such a virulent way in dealing with a policy matter which requires examination, this is not the way to tackle the problem. The legislation is untimely. Fine Gael believes that we should await the outcome of the deliberations of the high level working group which is considering the issue of what one should do with a management that decides it will not listen to the views of workers. We should not allow the Ryanair dispute to colour our views.

I condemn the regressive and backward attitude of Ryanair management which is not willing to go to the Labour Court. The company has benefited from the partnership agreements and Government policy over the years. Mr. O'Leary should realise that it is placing the partnership concept in danger by refusing to participate in the Labour Court. Will the Minister of State consider my suggestion that an independent third party should be appointed under section 38(2) of the Industrial Relations Act, l990, to tell Ryanair that it must participate?

I have taken soundings on this Bill from employers and trade union members, particularly those who have long experience of negotiations. Concern has been expressed about unilaterally abandoning the concept of voluntarism and partnership which has worked so well, although others may have said to Deputy Broughan that they are very happy with the Bill which is stronger and more penal than ICTU was looking for. It does not define, for example, the term "a substantial number". I am concerned about section 8(2) which seems to be offensive to the Labour Court. It implies that it may make mistakes which may have to be corrected. Will Deputy Broughan explain why this section has been included?

In the United Kingdom trade union recognition is not mandatory. The Blair Government has promised a White Paper on the issue. It recognises that there is no quick remedy. One of the issues that is outstanding in discussions with the information section of the TUC is what constitutes a majority. Under this Bill a majority would not be required. Section 13 states:

In determining whether a trade union is representative of employees or a category thereof for the purposes of this or any other enactment, the trade union shall be held to be representative if it represents a substantial number of the employees concerned having regard to all the circumstances, whether or not it represents all or a majority of such employees.

That is a recipe for confusion in deciding whether a trade union should be recognised.

I understand the CBI and the TUC in the UK have issued a paper having studied the matter. When the high level group reports I believe there will be a case for further co-operation and discussion in a wider public arena on the issue of trade union recognition. Bringing in legislation such as this immediately is not the way forward. Deputy Broughan's objectives are fair and he does not want a situation like that in Ryanair to be allowed to happen again, but there are other ways to do that.

Ryanair cannot be allowed damage the partnership from which they have rightly gained. The Ryanair dispute is colouring this debate and it is unfortunate that we cannot discuss the issue of trade union recognition at a time when there is no ongoing dispute about trade union recognition. This issue is particularly relevant because of the forthcoming by-election in Dublin North where many Ryanair workers live. I fully support the Ryanair workers in their demands that management listen to their point of view in the Labour Court and allow judgment be made by the Labour Court with all the parties sitting at the table. When the high level group reports it may well recommend a mechanism whereby errant management can be given some sanction for not agreeing to discuss matters with their employees, but we will have time to examine that issue again when the committee has reported.

Great concern about this issue has been expressed by IBEC. I cannot give facts and figures about jobs that might be lost in the future if mandatory trade union recognition legislation is introduced, but suffice to say that the people working in the many new jobs that have been created here do not have, nor are they seeking, mandatory recognition of trade unions. Thankfully, many of those workers are enjoying the fruits of very good jobs and they can seek good pay and conditions from management because proper management-worker relations have been established in those companies.

It is a fallacy to imply that mandatory recognition will be good for workers and a punishment for employers. Mandatory recognition might also be damaging to workers. What about the companies where workers do not want to have recognition? There is a risk that under Deputy Broughan's legislation a small number of people, who may be seen to represent a substantial number of people in a small section of a company, might be in a position to demand mandatory recognition against the wishes of many other workers. We should not revert from the consensus to the adversarial model which did not do this country any good. We must guard, with all our policy ideas, the whole concept of partnership which has worked well here.

Deputy Broughan has raised an important issue which we must discuss in this House but his legislation is premature and there are elements of it which would not be good if they were put into law. I ask the Deputy to wait until the high level group reports to see what mechanism it might recommend. I have spoken to ICTU and employer representatives and they discussed this issue in great detail at their high level group. Clear agreement was reached that a voluntary code was the way to proceed. I await with interest what they will say following their next meetings.

I hope that any words of difference I might have with Deputy Broughan will not be taken as an indication that Fine Gael is not anxious to solve the problem where employers will not listen to their employees and treat them properly. We fully support the Ryanair workers' case but in this instance we await the outcome of the high level group and then we will see what other studies need to be carried out before taking this step.

I thank Deputy Owen for sharing her time. I agree fully with what has been already stated. I am opposed to any arrangement that would impose mandatory union recognition on an employer. One reason for this is that it would be difficult for Ireland to remain attractive as a location for foreign direct investment. The high level group to which Deputy Owen referred, which included a number of trade unions as well as Mr. Jimmy Somers, President of SIPTU, concluded that, in light of all the circumstances, including arrangements in other jurisdictions, our voluntary approach to industrial relations should be underpinned.

The Ryanair dispute has arisen at a bad time in that the emergence of one difficulty would not justify moving from the voluntary approach to this issue. While welcoming the enormous contribution made by trade unions and workers to the economy over the years, it is important that the current national partnership be continued.

The biggest investment any employer makes is in their employees. The GLC rates are effective in ensuring that proper rates are paid to employees. Small companies throughout the country have developed successfully due to the option of voluntary trade union recognition. We should not walk away from that because successful companies depend on the good partnership between the employee and the employer. The unions have done enormous work over the years ensuring that employers adhered to the code of conduct that is necessary to carry on a successful business. Employers taking on staff are very conscious of the obligations imposed on them in regard to their employees. That area should be developed.

The development of the social partnership has been based largely on the long tradition of free collective bargaining in the industrial relations area. It is in the context of free collective bargaining that progress on trade union recognition will be made. I am a business person employing a number of people and my success in dealing with my staff is due to discussing their needs with them. Many small firms throughout the country do not avail of unions but the staff have the option of inviting them in.

That sounds like Ryanair.

Deputy Perry runs a very good business.

Deputy Perry, without interruption.

I employ 24 people and I am very involved in the retail sector. I ensure that my staff are happy with the terms I offer them. Many businesses invest approximately £20,000 in an employee. The biggest investment any employer makes is in personnel. Most businesses, whether they are factories or in the retail sector, involve dealing with customers. Unions are doing very necessary work, and I salute that, but our success to date has been based on the voluntary option. Ireland is recognised throughout the world as an attractive country in which to invest and we should not do anything to damage that recognition.

Debate adjourned.
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