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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Mar 1998

Vol. 488 No. 3

Adjournment Debate. - Employee Share Ownership Schemes.

A few weeks before Christmas I attended with the Taoiseach a presentation by MSF union on the general history of ESOPs and employee share ownership plans. I understand that the Taoiseach and I were the only two public representative present. The Taoiseach made some interesting comments about the operation of ESOPs and the role they play in the US in encouraging partnership, especially at factory and company level and the role they could play in the social partnership. He looked forward to their development in this country.

Before the general election Deputies interacted closely with their constituents, some of whom work in Telecom Éireann and are members of the Communication Workers' Union. At that time the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste made an explicit written promise to the workers of Telecom Éireann, including those in my constituency and on whose behalf I speak, that they would fully honour the proposal to have an ESOP of 14.9 per cent of the restructured Telecom.

The target date was 31 January yet we are now approaching the middle of March without agreement. I understand from today's newspaper that the company has been valued by the Minister's valuers, Morgan Stanley, at approximately £2.4 billion. On that basis and given the 9.9 per cent outstanding employees share ownership, the employees would need to raise approximately £240 million. On the basis of that valuation it would appear that a deal is not possible if we cannot advance the situation. Coopers and Lybrand on behalf of Telecom Éireann and Keelin on behalf of the Communication Workers' Union have valued the company at approximately £1.5 billion. With the surrender of the worker's bonus over the next number of years and with capitalisation of their pensions they will have to raise approximately £50 million, which they are prepared to do.

The Minister and the Taoiseach referred to the basis of securing a fair price from the employees for this shareholding in their company. It appears to me and my constituents who are Telecom Éireann workers that the £1.5 billion valuation is a fair price. However, an advance could be made even if an amount midway between the Morgan Stanley, Coopers & Lybrand or Keelin valuations was adopted.

The home of ESOPs is the United States. It has operated there extremely successfully in many brilliant companies. Special concessions are given to companies which introduce an ESOP involving deductible income under the taxation system. If the Minister is not prepared to consider a fairer price for the employee shareholding, will she consider, in conjunction with the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, an addition to the Finance Bill? This would enable a settlement to be reached under which the employees' contribution would still be approximately £50 million.

Many of my constituents who are proud workers for Telecom Éireann are exasperated at this stage. The Minister has been working on this issue for the past nine months and the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment have made strong commitments on it. However, it has not been finalised and the workers want to know when the issue will be advanced and a deal will be cut. The Minister has an opportunity in the context of social partnership, to which the Labour Party and I hope the Government is committed, of bringing forward a fair partnership in this company between the employees and management. As we face an era of restructuring in which there will be significant change in the telecommunications area, the Minister has an opportunity to build a main plank in social partnership. She would then have the distinction of being the Minister who brought about the first major ESOP deal in the public sector and laid down a formula for the future development of partnerships in Ireland. I urge the Minister to conclude the deal as soon as possible and to put to rest the fears of my constituents.

I thank Deputy Broughan for raising this matter and the Chair for allowing it to be debated. I am committed to an ESOP for Telecom Éireann workers and I hope such schemes will also be developed in other companies in the semi-State sector. This area is being closely examined by many other companies which are awaiting the outcome of the current discussions.

The Government has been in office for eight months but intensive negotiations on this issue did not begin until just before Christmas. They have been ongoing since then. The main players from the various areas in the company are engaged in detailed talks in my Department this afternoon. I have been in my office all day and various matters have been referred to me in the context of the progression of the talks which have reached a crucial stage.

Deputy Broughan and many other members of his party were committed to ensuring that an ESOP was agreed in Telecom Éireann. However, that did not happen prior to the last election despite many months of negotiations. A point was reached when the then Minister said "no" and the process went no further. The Deputy is aware of this and I do not wish to rub it in because I want a successful outcome to the current discussions.

In labour matters generally, one does not seek to disturb talks when they reach a crucial stage. The current negotiations are at a sensitive point and are intense. I spoke to an official engaged in the talks before I came to the House and it would be incorrect of me to outline the exact stage they have reached.

Does the Minister look forward to a successful conclusion?

I ask the Deputy not to interrupt the Minister.

I did not hear what he said so I cannot respond. Perhaps he could repeat his point.

When will the talks conclude?

I ask the Deputy to allow the Minister to reply.

I am hopeful that there will be a dawn on the matter within the next few days, although I have been hopeful about such an opening previously. There is great goodwill on the part of the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment on this matter. There is also much goodwill on my part and that of the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy. We want to ensure that a satisfactory conclusion is reached for the benefit of the workers, management and consumers. It will be a prototype for such arrangements in other semi-State companies.

I am glad to have the opportunity to debate this matter. The Deputy tabled his matter yesterday so it was not based on information he read this morning in the Irish Independent. He was obviously tuned in to the matter prior to the article. This is how democracy operates. The coalition of trade unions has taken an extremely co-ordinated approach. It is definite about what its members want and it is good at negotiation. Our side is also good at negotiation and I am hopeful of a satisfactory outcome within a short period.

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