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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Apr 1998

Vol. 489 No. 5

Priority Questions - Electricity Generation.

Emmet Stagg

Question:

2 Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Public Enterprise if the policy for the introduction of competition in the electricity generation industry will no longer be fulfilled by means of open competition that would include the ESB but rather by a selection process for new generators that would exclude the ESB; her views on whether this would lead to ESB generation plants closing down and to large scale redundancies among its workforce; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [8498/98]

The Deputy's question appears to be based on a misapprehension. In the first instance there is no proposal to move to a selection process for new generators under the new industry structure. The Deputy is aware of much of what I am going to say through his work in the Department. The choice under the relevant EU directive is between a tendering system for new capacity, in which case authorisation must also be granted if sought, or a simple authorisation system. There is no proposal to exclude ESB under either system of regulation.

The capital investment involved in any new generation capacity which ESB might wish to build will continue, as at present, to be subject to shareholder approval.

There are no valid grounds for believing that the advent of competition as required by the EU directive would lead to large-scale redundancy among the ESB's workforce as a result of ESB generation plants closing down. There are a number of reasons for this view: there is strong growth in demand leading to a need for more rather than less capacity — last year the ESB had more new connections than ever before; the small degree of initial market opening will limit the extent of potential new entrants; the finite capacity in the gas interconnector will act as a limit on the building of new electricity generation for some years and I have every confidence in the ability of the ESB and its workforce to react positively to competition.

The Deputy is aware that the directive came into force in February 1997 and that it will be implemented by February 2000. It requires that approximately 28 per cent of the Irish market be opened to competition, increasing to 32 per cent by 2003. Customers using more than 100 gigawatt hours per year will automatically be eligible to choose their electricity supplier in the competitive market. The franchise market will continue to be supplied exclusively by the ESB.

My Department issued a consultation document last May which led to the receipt of over 50 submissions from people in the industry and others, most of which were critical in nature. None of the submissions were supportive of the document. The officials studied the submissions and last January a forum was held where our stall was again laid out. The papers delivered at the forum were very helpful, as were the subsequent submissions. During the forum we indicated our view that the holding of open tendering competitions for future large-scale electricity generation might not be the best way forward. It was clear that a centrally planned tendering system was no longer feasible under the directive as it has emerged. There are various reasons for this.

The authorisation procedure is consistent with the approach being taken by many EU states in implementing the EU directive, including the UK, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. I met all the unions yesterday. We had a very good meeting and went through all the related matters.

The ESB has a proud and honourable history but has had a monopoly since 1927. There is no doubt that open competition, even in a limited sense from 2000, will be difficult for management, employees and those in the political system. The best chance the ESB has is if the challenges and how to cope with them are approached collectively. A certain amount of this is taking place.

At the forum referred to by the Minister, her officials laid out the Department's stall and came down in favour of authorisation procedures for finding new capacity rather than tendering. We all understand what is meant by tendering, i.e., the process whereby somebody advertises, tenders are received and a procedure to find the best tender is embarked upon. However, will the Minister explain an authorisation system?

A company may wish to build, for example, a new generating station. We discussed this matter with the employees yesterday. Generating stations are very expensive items, the smallest costing £100 million. Nobody will invest £100 million unless they are sure the market will sustain the investment and that it is a viable proposition. An inhibiting factor is the gas interconnector which can only sustain one more station.

That is another question that will have to be addressed in some other fashion. That is what authorisation is.

Will the Minister confirm I am correct in assuming that suitable companies, such as Scottish Power and Marathon Oil, would be licensed under certain criteria for generating electricity? Marathon recently outlined plans at that conference for the building of a 2,000 megawatt power station. If it was to proceed with its proposal to build such a station, which would provide for approximately half our required capacity, what would happen in regard to the ESB's generating plants, particularly the turf burning plants that produce the most expensive electricity? Would they be redundant if it were to produce electricity from a new modern plant at a cheaper price?

Marathon expressed an interest in it, but I do not know who else did. When people are at a forum they feel bullish and want to make their views known. To answer the Deputy's question directly, the CCR is the arrangement entered into by the Government and the company and its workers. Under, I believe, Article 24 of the transitional arrangement we signalled to Europe there are arrangements in place here and undertakings entered into — there is no mention of CCR because they are of a general nature — but that we may have reservations about the shape of the directive in terms of that article. We were required to do that by February this year and we did it within the appropriate time. A further stage of that transitional arrangement will be in place by mid-summer or early autumn next year and under that article we will be able to elaborate on where we perceive the arrangements entered into could be wrongly influenced by the liberalisation programme. By that stage matters will be further advanced. I hope the necessary legislation will be before or have passed through the House and we will be able to clearly state our position. I told the unions yesterday, and I will repeat what I said to them tomorrow in Killarney, we will ensure the stations will not be redundant before the end of their economic lifetime, the term used in the arrangements with the unions.

While I accept the Minister's good intentions in ensuring there will not be redundant capacity, particularly in the most vulnerable sector of the generating capacity, will she agree the system of authorisation will take from her the authority to decide that issue? If Scottish Power was to build a 300 megawatt power station and provide electricity in the system at a cheaper price, having been licensed or authorised as a suitable company to do so, under the market regulations and the directive the power procurer would be required to take that electricity in the interests of cheaper prices from the consumer. If that may occur, how can the Minister guarantee to the unions or the House that she can protect the ESB's existing capacity? I am well aware of the fears of the ESB, previous Governments and this Government in seeking to protect that existing capacity for the duration of its economic lifetime.

I spoke about this to the IVO last night. This issue is highly complex in any market that opens up, as the electricity market will open up. No doubt thriving predatory companies — although that may be too strong a term — will properly seek to get much more than their toe into the market. There are a number of points. I am committed to the spirit and thrust of the CCR and I have said that here before and to the unions. The unions accept the CCR was finally framed before the directive was published in its present form but we are expected to work within it. Under the transitional arrangement we flagged our concern about the final shape of the directive because of the arrangements we have entered into, but the follow-up to that transitional arrangement, which will be in place by September 1999, will enable us to shape much more clearly our commitments to protect the economic lifespan of our stations and outline our concerns about the new influx into the market.

There will be two Bills before us next year, one giving PLC status to the ESB and a much larger one, with approximately 100 heads, dealing with the opening up of the industry to liberalisation. However, this is a matter the House should closely monitor. The heads the Bill will be published in three weeks' time for consultation purposes, but they will not be the ones that will be confirmed by Cabinet. There will be some input into that and once that is completed we could have another debate on the electricity system.

Does the Minister envisage a situation where she would consider it desirable that the ESB should enter into a joint venture with another generating company?

The ESB is its own master in matters such as that.

The Minister owns it.

It approaches me with ideas but is its own master.

The time for dealing with priority questions is exhausted and I now call Question No. 4 which can be taken in ordinary time.

What about Question No. 3?

It dies once the 20 minutes allocated for dealing with priority questions are exhausted.

I propose, with the agreement of the House, that we now take Question No. 3.

It is not possible for the House to unilaterally change the rules in that manner. We cannot take it upon ourselves to change the procedure.

What question are we moving on to?

Question No. 4.

Why did the Chair skip Question No. 3?

I did so because under the rules of the House if the third priority question is not reached within the 20 minutes allocated for priority questions it cannot be taken.

Surely that applies to all the remaining priority questions.

That is a daft rule.

If it is a daft rule, it is a rule of the House and the Deputies should talk to their colleagues about changing it.

This is a very important question. In the Chair's constituency there are——

The Deputy should not circumvent my ruling in that way. He is completely out of order. This is a long established practice for which there is a precedent in the House. This is the rule under Standing Orders.

I ask the Chair for clarification on one point. I understand how the Chair would move from priority questions to other questions and I am prepared to agree that we deal with all the remaining priority questions in ordinary time.

I thought we had dealt with this argument which has arisen on umpteen occasions during Question Time. The Front Bench spokesperson concerned accepts the ruling and this is the first time it has been challenged. I explained the ruling and the Deputy should not be disorderly. My role is to enforce the rules, not to break them.

Why is the Chair moving to Question No. 4?

Because under the rules the fourth and fifth priority questions can be taken in ordinary time.

To assist the Chair and the House, I wish to advise that a sub-committee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is addressing this difficulty at present.

The sooner it comes up with a solution the better.

It is working on it.

It is a most ridiculous rule and broke my heart when I was in the Chair.

I have no option but to proceed to Question No. 4.

I wish to request——

The Deputy cannot proceed on Question No. 3.

I am asking that the question be withdrawn because I will not be able to resubmit it under the six month rule. I have the statutory instrument with me. This is a huge issue and a by-election is due to be held——

The Deputy cannot pursue the matter now.

It is a massive issue in south Kilkenny and Waterford——

The matter cannot be pursued. I cannot break the rules of the House and the Deputy knows that. It is my responsibility to enforce the rules.

On a point of order, I thought the House could do anything if the Members agreed.

Not in this case. The rule is written in black and white and it would be an immense help to the Chair if Deputies would read the rules they have made for themselves. The position is plainly set out in Standing Orders. Deputies should acquaint themselves with Standing Orders to prevent these rows occurring every day.

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