Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Apr 1998

Vol. 490 No. 2

Private Notice Questions (Resumed). - Threatened Garda Industrial Action (Resumed).

Ms McManus

I thank you, Sir, for having saved the House from total farce. There was a certain reassurance when the Minister was known as the Minister for zero tolerance. Would he not accept that it is deeply disturbing for people to realise that, if he continues with his present approach, he will become the Minister for zero policing? Will he indicate his plans for Friday? Is it true, as reported today in the Irish Independent, that there are no scheduled meetings planned between the Minister, senior Garda authorities and the GRA?

I do not believe the Minister appreciates how alarming this situation is for the public. Did he hear the statement from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, which is alarmed at what is in prospect for Friday? What preparations has he put in place? What areas will be disturbed and what services will not be provided as a result of this dispute and as a result of his failure to cope with the large-scale withdrawal of Garda personnel that is likely to occur? We and members of the public must know what will happen on Friday to allow for preparations.

Mr. O'Donoghue

I have made it repeatedly clear in the course of this dispute that the GRA are most welcome to return to the negotiating table. The dispute will not be resolved outside the gates of this House or on a platform outside Buswells Hotel. It will ultimately be resolved around the negotiating table. Rather than engage in what can only be a disruptive day for society I again appeal to members of the GRA to follow the example of their senior colleagues in the AGSI and return to the negotiating table to see if this matter can be resolved amicably and within the public sector pay guidelines.

With regard to the specific measure which Deputy McManus insists on raising again, I have outlined to the House that discussions are under way and that plans are advanced, and in some cases in place, to deal with the situation should it arise. No Minister for Justice has attended this House and laid out strategies which the Garda Síochána may be putting in place to deal with given situations whereby vulnerable members of the public might require the utmost security of the State. I assure the public that everything possible will be done to ensure that an adequate police force is in place to protect those who are vulnerable and to ensure that, in so far as it is possible, people will feel safe.

Mrs. Owen

I can perhaps be forgiven as I listen to the Minister, knowing that when I was Minister he was at the front gates of this House inciting the gardaí to make as much noise as they could about pay rises. It was reported to me verbally by gardaí at the time that he assured them they would be looked after when Fianna Fáil returned to Government. Is the Minister aware the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors has recalled its adjourned conference for next Thursday? At that meeting neither the Minister nor I know what decision the sergeants will take in relation to the Friday action called by the GRA. Can the Minister confirm to the House he will be depending on the sergeants, superintendents, chief superintendents, assistant commissioners, inspectors, deputy commissioners and the Commissioner to fill in for 8,500 gardaí given that there are only approximately 2,000 members in the senior ranks? What discussion has the Minister had with the chief superintendents, the superintendents and the inspectors about filling the rosters for next Friday? Are sufficient numbers in those ranks qualified to drive squad cars, to answer telephones and to deal with public queries? What discussions has the Minister had with them on pay for filling in for their colleagues who will be out sick next Friday?

I do not believe the Minister does not know how to answer this question in the House. He should be giving us assurances that people's security will be protected next Friday when all the gardaí will be out sick.

Mr. O'Donoghue

I completely reject the accusation made by the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, to the effect I in any way incited the Garda Síochána. I accept I met them on the occasion in question. I am sure many other Members of the House did so as well and have done so since. I said I recall writing to the Garda Síochána——

Mrs. Owen

Saying what?

Mr. O'Donoghue

——and, in so far as I can remember, being quite responsible in the reply I gave.

Mrs. Owen

The Minister does not know the meaning of the word "responsible".

Mr. J. Mitchell

What did the Minister say to them?

Mr. O'Donoghue

I further recall appearing on a television programme with the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, when I condemned a situation where members of the GRA had been quite dismissive of her. I declared on that occasion I did not think it was appropriate that should happen. That was my view then and it is my view now. The revisionist historians in the House——

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Minister is hoist with his own petard.

Mr. Flanagan

This is not a case of revisionism but one of amnesia.

Mr. O'Donoghue

——would do well to bury the pain they still carry from the general election and face the issue before us.

In the context of a disruption occurring on Friday we will ensure, in so far as possible, that those officers of whatever rank who are willing to serve are deployed to the best advantage of the community generally. To do otherwise would be illogical. I explained again and again that the logistics and specific strategies to be adopted are matters I will not make public for the simple reason it would be counterproductive. Suffice to say that everything possible is being done and discussions are being held within the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, within the Garda Síochána and between the Garda Síochána and the Department——

Mrs. Owen

Are the chiefs willing to drive the squad cars?

Mr. Howlin

Who will be on the motorbikes?

Mr. O'Donoghue

——to ensure the personnel available will be deployed to optimum effect. That is a reasonable answer.

Dr. Upton

Can the Minister guarantee we will not have a farcical situation next Friday whereby the criminal justice system will collapse because gardaí will not be present in the courts? Can he guarantee a series of criminals are not facing the real possibility they will be able to walk free next Friday because of his ineptitude?

Mr. O'Donoghue

I am disappointed that Deputy Upton, who is normally relatively reasonable, should feel my ineptitude was the cause of all of this——

Mr. Stagg

Answer the question.

Mr. O'Donoghue

——but it is true that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. My performance in relation to this matter has by no means been inept.

Mrs. Owen

Why does the Minister think they are walking off the job?

Mr. Stagg

What about next Friday?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Mr. O'Donoghue

We made an offer to the Garda Síochána of 5.5 per cent. The PCW was reopened after a period of 16 months and the offer in respect of productivity was increased to 7 per cent, but the Garda Representative Association decided it would not accept it.

Mr. Stagg

What about Friday?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Tell us about bad Friday.

Mr. O'Donoghue

If Members of the House have a death wish in relation to next Friday, it is not a death wish that is carried with any concern for the general public. It has to do with a political agenda which is a different matter.

Mr. Howlin

The Minister is accountable to this House.

Mr. Belton

What do the Progressive Democrats thinks of all of this?

Mr. O'Donoghue

Being a realist and having seen some of the Deputies who are making the case, I understand their crocodile tears and I am quite used to them. I am quite accountable to this House. As I said, it would not be appropriate for me to outline the precise strategies which will be adopted, but suffice to say the deployment of the officers will be such that they will be used to optimum effect to protect the community.

Mrs. Owen

Can the Minister guarantee that?

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Having made that assertion, does the Minister realise he is the first Minister to be asked to give operational details and the first Minister to whip up such a revolt in the ranks of the Garda Síochána? Regarding the question I and Deputy McManus asked about the crucial security issue, has the Minister met the Garda Commissioner? Has he met senior Garda personnel and the Minister for Defence in regard to the possible deployment of the Army, if Army reserves or resources are required next Friday, which could well be the case? Is the Minister prepared to issue an invitation to the GRA to meet him? I urge the GRA to meet him if such an invitation is tendered.

Mr. O'Donoghue

Given its tradition, I do not believe most reasonable people would contemplate the Garda Síochána would allow the country to be put in a position which some Deputies are now outlining. It is possible, and even probable, some gardaí will not arrive for duty on Friday if the disruption goes ahead. I appeal to the GRA to meet around the table to discuss the situation. It is the way forward and, ultimately, that is what will have to happen. My officials are in contact with the gardaí on a consistent basis in relation to this matter.

Mrs. Owen

The Minister has not been in touch with them.

Mr. O'Donoghue

There have been high level discussions to ensure strategies are in place so that the gardaí will be deployed to optimum effect.

Mr. Quinn

Has the Minister met the Commissioner?

Mrs. Owen

We are trying to get the Minister started on that.

Mr. O'Donoghue

I am not prepared to go into the specific strategies which were discussed. I strongly reject Deputy Higgins's assertion to the effect that I in any way whipped or stirred up this dispute. This dispute between the GRA and the Government of the day regarding pay long predates my entry into this position.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

This is the Minister for zero meetings.

Mrs. Owen

There will be a serious threat to people's security next Friday.

Mr. Belton

The Progressive Democrats will be calling on the Minister shortly.

Mr. O'Donoghue

I accept it is my responsibility, I am accountable to this House and that I must do everything I possibly can to try to resolve this matter. I am doing that. However, I will not under any circumstances——

Mr. Quinn

Meet the Commissioner.

Mr. O'Donoghue

——bring about a situation in relation to public sector pay which will bring us back to where we were prior to 1987. The Government will not become involved in the politics of appeasement.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Why did the Government bring it this far?

Mr. O'Donoghue

This is irrespective of the jibes and steamrolling tactics of members of the Opposition. Last week I attended the superintendents' conference where I had a brief discussion with the Garda Commissioner about this dispute. Officials of my Department are in constant contact with members of the Garda Síochána.

Mr. Quinn

It is nothing to do with the Minister.

Mr. O'Donoghue

Everything possible is being done to try to resolve the matter within the constraints we face. I again appeal to the GRA to see sense and come to the table with a view to resolving the dispute.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Minister is going straight out to call the Garda Commissioner.

Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.