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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Apr 1998

Vol. 490 No. 2

Ceisteanna—Questions. - Committee on Social Inclusion and Drugs.

Pat Rabbitte

Question:

9 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the work to date of the Cabinet Committee on Social Inclusion and Drugs; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9274/98]

As the Deputy is aware, the purpose of the Cabinet committee is to give political direction and leadership and to demonstrate the collective commitment of the Government to dealing with problems of social exclusion. The committee is meeting on a monthly basis to assess progress on the strategies being employed to deal with poverty and disadvantage, namely, the national anti-poverty strategy, the national drugs strategy and the Local Urban and Rural Development Operational Programme, and resolve any policy or organisational problems which might inhibit an effective response.

During the latter part of 1997, the committee reviewed the findings of relevant Ministers on the extent of the needs of young people in the most disadvantaged areas, particularly those areas where a serious drug problem exists. As a result of proposals subsequently submitted to Government, a programme for young people at risk has been established, the centrepiece of which is a Young People's Facilities and Services Fund to which £30 million is being provided over the next three years. This fund will be used to support a variety of capital and non-capital projects in severely disadvantaged areas.

At least £20 million from the fund will be targeted at those areas particularly affected by the heroin problem. The fund is additional to the £10 million already approved by Government towards the implementation of the action plans of the 13 local drug task forces.

The detailed arrangements for the operation of the Young People's Facilities and Services Fund have been considered by the Cabinet Committee on Social Inclusion and Drugs and an announcement will be made shortly on the guidelines for the operation of the fund in the drugs task force areas.

As a further measure to ensure the co-ordination of measures to support young people at risk, the Government has appointed my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, to be Minister of State at the Departments of Education and Science and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, in addition to Health and Children.

Under the guidance of the Cabinet committee, the secretariat of the national anti-poverty strategy in the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs has sought and received baseline documents from Government Departments outlining the policy areas within their remit which impact on social inclusion. Work has commenced on identifying opportunities for co-operation between Departments across these areas. Work is currently continuing on the preparation of guidelines for proofing policies for their impact on poverty. A discussion document is being drafted and the national anti-poverty strategy interdepartmental committee is due to meet with the social partners to progress the issue.

It is recognised that a considerable amount of work needs to be done in raising awareness about the causes, nature and extent of poverty in Ireland. Accordingly, an information and public education strategy has been approved to address this need. In tandem with this, a training programme has been organised for departmental national anti-poverty strategy liaison officers.

In the areas of local development, the committee has focused on the need to enhance the effectiveness of local initiatives by securing greater co-ordination and integration in the delivery of State services in deprived areas. In this context, the committee has mandated the interdepartmental policy committee on local development, chaired by me, to launch a pilot integrated services project.

The aim of this project is to develop new procedures to ensure a more focused and better co-ordinated response by statutory authorities to the needs of communities with the greatest level of disadvantage. It is the Government's intention that a successful model evolved during this project will be extended to other urban areas of major disadvantage.

I want to ask a number of supplementary questions and I hope the Chair will give me the time to pursue them. When will money be available from the £30 million provided by the Government? In other words, how soon will the draft guidelines be finalised, presented to Government and applications sought for use of that money? Will the Minister of State indicate if the baseline documents have been submitted by all Departments and which Departments, if any, are outstanding? Is it intended to place these documents in the Oireachtas Library so that Deputies can see the work these Departments are doing in relation to the national anti-poverty strategy? In relation to the pilot project and the delivery of integrated State services, has it been decided where that project will be established and for how long it will run?

With regard to the £30 million fund, the guidelines have been approved by the Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion. I will be making an announcement on that shortly.

Some baseline documents have been received but I do not have the detail requested by the Deputy. I will provide that by way of a separate response.

The pilot project is being developed by the Interdepartmental Policy Committee on Local Development which I chair and I am responsible for reporting the progress of the pilot project to the Cabinet Sub-Committee on Social Inclusion.

The time allowed for questions to the Taoiseach has now expired. We must proceed to questions nominated for priority to the Minister for Finance.

Can we proceed with this question tomorrow?

No. The question has been answered and a number of supplementaries have been asked.

Not all the supplementaries have been answered.

We are over the limit.

It was inadvisable of the Chair to take it at a quarter past three.

I had to take it, but now we are over the limit.

The Chair did not have to take it. Will he permit me a supplementary?

I will allow a brief supplementary from Deputy De Rossa and from each of the other Deputies.

We will have more time tomorrow. I am asking whether we can continue with this question tomorrow.

That would not be possible.

Why not? It has been done before.

We would have to make a special order.

I find this very unsatisfactory because this is one of the most important policy questions that has come before the House today.

The rules are laid down by the House and I have to operate them. I have no discretion in this matter.

I appreciate that. This is one of the most important policy questions that has come up today, and because time is restricted we will not be able to put a similar question down for some time.

There will be a question on the Adjournment.

On a point of order, the Chair took the question. I understand it is normal to allow Members of the House to ask supplementaries when questions are taken. I indicated before a quarter past three that I wished to ask a supplementary.

The Chair has sole discretion in the matter of supplementaries and at 3.15 p.m. we are obliged, under the Order of the House, to proceed to Priority Questions. Just before that time we happened to reach this question, which had to be taken. I allowed a number of supplementaries from Deputy De Rossa on the matter. Deputy Gregory did not have a question tabled. Had he a question tabled, I would have facilitated him, even though the time had expired. I will allow him one brief supplementary. We are well beyond the time allotted for questions to the Taoiseach.

Will the Minister of State indicate whether or not the baseline documents which each Department is producing for the committee will be placed in the Oireachtas Library for the information of Deputies, particularly for the information of those of us who serve on the Joint Committee on Family, Community and Social Affairs? Where will the pilot project for the integrated State services be located — one presumes it will be located in some geographical area? Has that decision yet been made? Will the Minister of State also indicate whether the guidelines for proofing of policies by each Department will be made available to Deputies by placing them in the Oireachtas Library?

The pilot project referred to by the Deputy will be based in my own Department.

Let me ask for clarification on this. The Minister of State indicated in his reply that whatever successful conclusions arise from this pilot project will be extended to other urban areas of major disadvantage. Presumably the pilot project must be located in some specific urban area of major disadvantage. What is that area? Where is it?

I am surprised the Deputy is asking that question at this stage. There is much information in the public domain which I gave to the Deputy's colleague, Deputy Rabbitte, on a number of occasions. There are four pilot project areas. One is Jobstown in Tallaght. Another is the Fatima Mansions flat complexes. There is one in the north inner city. The fourth is in Togher in Cork. That information has been freely available.

What the Minister of State is speaking about is the pilot project with regard to the delivery of integrated State services. The Minister's reply refers to only one pilot project. I want clarity and accuracy in what he is telling the House.

I am surprised the Deputy is asking that question at this stage. It is a pilot project. If the Deputy wants to use the plural he may do so. If he were familiar with the debate on this issue up to now, he would know that there are four projects in this pilot process.

With regard to the baseline documents, I will have to revert to him on the question of placing them in the Library. I am not in a position to give a response to that.

I find the Minister's attitude extraordinary.

It is not in order to make statements. The Deputy should put his supplementary questions.

The Minister of State is not in a position to tell the House whether or not he is prepared to put information in the Oireachtas Library with regard to the proofing procedures and the baseline documents themselves. We are entitled to information.

We cannot have a debate on the matter at Question Time.

There is no point in having a Freedom of Information Act if Members of this House cannot get the information they are entitled to about what is going on at departmental level.

If the Deputy puts down a specific question I will come in with an answer. That is standard procedure.

The Minister of State referred to these matters in his reply.

The Deputy, as a former Minister, understands the procedure. It is not for me to dictate it.

The Deputy referred to the matters in his reply. He has supplementary information in his file, but he is not prepared to give it to the House.

We cannot have a debate on this matter now. I have no option but to proceed to the Priority Question. I call on Deputy Nora Owen.

I intend to ask a supplementary. It strikes me that, since the Freedom of Information Act came in, the Government has adopted a policy of giving us as little information in the House as possible and forcing us to use the freedom of information legislation to get information that was heretofore given in this House. I have a specific question for the Minister of State. Within the past two or three weeks, an advertisement was placed in the newspapers under the banner of the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation with a view to setting up yet another expert group to deal with the use of money in areas of disadvantage, in tackling drug addiction etc. Where does the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation come in under the programme on social inclusion and drugs?

That issue is based in the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation because I am Minister of State at that Department. The advertisement referred to by the Deputy relates to our proposals to carry out an evaluation of the National Drugs Strategy and the local drugs task forces.

In his initial reply the Minister of State said that the purpose of the Cabinet sub-committee was to give political direction and leadership. In view of that, could the Minister of State give us the Cabinet sub-committee's assessment of the extent of the heroin problem, in particular in Dublin? Is it getting worse or better? What is the Cabinet's sub-committee's assessment of the number of people addicted to heroin in Dublin? Is it, as reported recently, at an all time high of 12,000? Are the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Síochána represented on the Cabinet sub-committee and what is their assessment of the level of supply of heroin in Dublin? What changes in strategy, if any, have they introduced since the Government took office?

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is represented on the Cabinet sub-committee by its Minister. The Deputy is well aware that no definitive figures are available from any quarter as to the total number of drug abusers but there are estimates of between 8,000 and 12,000. It is a very difficult figure to compile because some abusers present for treatment but others do not, for one reason or another, and it is very difficult to track their numbers and compile an accurate figure. I assure the House that, based on my report, the Government is fighting the misuse of drugs on all fronts. My colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, has had recent success with the Garda Síochána making drug seizures and taking other actions with which the Deputy will be familiar.

We are expanding the treatment services through our local drugs task forces by opening treatment centres, involving communities and empowering them, through the provision of resources, to fight against the scourge of drug misuse. We are making progress because we are implementing the programmes put forward by the 13 local drugs task forces. I have also indicated our attack on social exclusion and disadvantage. Areas of high disadvantage, with which the Deputy is very familiar, are often areas of high drug misuse, particularly heroin abuse. I believe this Government is fighting back in a co-ordinated way on all fronts and with some success but we have a long way to go.

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