Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 1998

Vol. 492 No. 2

Private Members' Business. - Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1998 [ Seanad ]: Committee and Remaining Stages.

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Dukes

This section has sparked my curiosity. Subsection (2) (a) reads, "a reference to a former rural district shall be construed as a reference to that district as constituted immediately before the 1st day of October, 1925". It is time definitions such as this were tidied up.

Subsection (2) (b) reads, "a reference to a line drawn along any motorway, road, railway or pathway shall be construed as a reference to a line drawn along the centre of such motorway, road, railway or pathway". That is clear and succinct but, from a cursory examination, there are a number of cases where the border between constituencies is marked by a lake or river. I am aware that, as far as Lough Corrib and Lough Mask are concerned, the borders have been defined otherwise by ancient agreements but Lough Rea is not in the same boat. The Shannon marks the border between Laoighis-Offaly and Longford-Roscommon and Galway East. Lough Derg marks the border between Tipperary North and Galway East and Clare. The Shannon estuary marks the border between Clare and Kerry North, Limerick West and Limerick East. Is it clear beyond doubt from other statutes where the borders lie or are these areas defined with reference to the former rural districts as constituted immediately before 1 October 1925?

Mr. Dempsey

The short answer is that it is time new definitions, other than rural districts, were found This matter can be looked at in the context of electoral reform. It would be a major task in terms of mapping. Adjoining electoral divisions have similar names in many instances. They are distinguished by being included in different rural districts.

In city areas, particularly in Dublin, boundaries are marked by physical features. Constituencies run from the centre. That is logical, although it is not a technical explanation.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Proinsias De Rossa

The commission, as provided for in the Bill, is made up of non-politicians.

Mr. Dempsey

Non-practising politicians.

Proinsias De Rossa

In theory, this is a good idea. It would be inappropriate to have practising politicians on the commission but a case could be made for including someone with political expertise. It is no criticism of the existing commission to say that there appears to be a lack of consciousness of the difficulties changes in boundaries can create for electors on the one hand and the elected on the other. Arguably, it would be inappropriate for it to take into account that this might affect X or Y. There seems to be a case for having access to the acquired political expertise of a politician, but how would we identify such a person? To avail of such expertise, the person would have to be a retired politician, perhaps near the end of his or her days.

Mr. Howlin

It could be a former Ceann Comhairle.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am sure that expertise exists. There are former Ceann Comhairligh. It may be worth considering adding that expertise to the commission in the future.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's points do not relate to this section.

Proinsias De Rossa

Does section 2 not relate to the boundaries?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Section 2 relates only to the number of Deputies.

Proinsias De Rossa

I do not have the Bill to hand, but I thought it related to the boundaries.

Mr. Dempsey

I am not averse to the Deputy's point of view. Difficulties would arise in selecting a non-practising politician.

Mr. Howlin

More than one could be selected.

Mr. Dempsey

If I was in the Custom House, I would be inclined to look for an ex-Fianna Fáil politician and if Deputies Howlin or De Rossa were there——

Proinsias De Rossa

The Minister might have to bend over backwards.

Mr. Dukes

One of them is called Solomon.

Mr. Dempsey

Deputy De Rossa's point is valid. I am not casting aspersions on the staff in the Public Offices Commission——

Mr. Howlin

Practicalities come into effect.

Mr. Dempsey

They do. What would happen in political situations? Often a practical commonsense interpretation rather than a legalistic one can be helpful.

Mr. Howlin

And experience is a factor.

Mr. Dempsey

If there was unanimous support for the name of the person put forward, perhaps an ex-Ceann Comhairle, there would be merit in establishing a system to provide for that.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 3 agreed to.

SECTION 4.

Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Proinsias De Rossa

I wish to raise a point on the number of Deputies in a constituency, which was made during the Second Stage debate. It relates to the terms of reference that are provided for three, four and five seat constituencies. From the contributions made from this and the Fianna Fáil side, it seems Members have become increasingly unhappy with the proliferation of three seat constituencies, particularly in urban areas. Deputy Dukes made the point that three seaters are more suitable to the more widespread rural constituencies and, presumably, they would overcome the problem of joining two counties together to make up a five seater constituency.

We seem to have got out of kilter with the underlying principle of the multiseat constituency idea. The fewer the number of three seat constituencies we have, the better. It has long been my conviction that this House should be as widely representative as possible. That has been one of the strengths of this Parliament since l922. It overcame many of the difficulties which might have existed if we had a first past the post system. That division at the time would have lasted much longer, if we did not have a PR multiseat constituency system. The likelihood was that one of the representatives people voted for would have been successful and the people felt they were represented in this House. That is also true today. There are Members from my party, the Progressive Democrats and other parties, who would not be here if we had a first past the post system or the likelihood is we would be unlikely to be here with a single seat constituency system. However, that is debatable and we could spend all night discussing it.

We need to find a way to re-examine the terms of reference of the commission. They are locked into the Electoral Act, but we need to find an objective way to examine them and reach a conclusion as to what they ought to be. The terms of reference have been in place more or less since 1977, but some minor change may have been made to them. We need to review them and to find, in so far as one can in a political arena, a mechanism which comes up with an objective view on them.

Mr. Dempsey

I am not being critical of the commission, but from a party viewpoint and, I might be speaking for quite a number of my party colleagues, party, I am not very happy with the number of three seat constituencies. We could always compromise with a four seat constituency. Guiding principles of the commission are outlined in relation to Dublin on page 32 of the report. It states that it seeks to unite communities in particular constituencies, that the 1995 commission had gone some way towards doing that and is trying to continue that work. It wanted to rationalise the Dublin Central constituency and it sought to align boundaries with significant physical features, notably the Liffey and the M50.

I am not sure if it is stated in the report, it may have been stated in the press release that accompanied it, but if the commission did not state it explicitly, it seemed to be implicit that it designed these constituencies in such a way that perhaps, in the future with the increasing population in Dublin West, there would be less need to change boundaries and that on the next occasion seats could be added in some of these constituencies. That is a good idea and the commission is to be commended on that, but it has given rise to the extra number of three seat constituencies for the next election. If the Government runs its full course, a census will be completed, we might have a new set of figures to work from before the next general election and all this might change.

Mr. Howlin

I would not count on that.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 5 agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Mr. Howlin

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 4, lines 8 to 11, to delete subsection (2) and substitute the following:

"(2) The collective citation ‘the Electoral Acts, 1992 to 1998' shall include this Act, and those Acts and this Act shall be construed together as one.".

I set out with the principle that I would not seek to make any amendment to this Bill, but I am legally advised this is a technical amendment that should be incorporated and it addresses an apparent error in it. The Electoral Acts 1992 to 1998 are defined in the last Electoral Act, therefore, section 6(2) of the Bill, in redefining them, is unnecessary. I am legally informed the correct citation is the one incorporated in the amendment. If that is the case, we should amend the Bill and, if not, no doubt, the Minister will inform me.

Mr. Dempsey

Doctors differ and patients die and lawyers always differ. I considered the revised text of subsection (2) in the Deputy's amendment. We have a difference of view on a technical drafting point. I consulted the parliamentary draftsman on this and I am assured the text in the Bill is correct. The net difference between both texts is that the text in this Bill excludes the Electoral (Amendment) Act, 1995, which will be repealed when the Bill's provisions become effective following the next dissolution of the Dáil. The proposed collective citation provided for in the amendment includes the 1995 Act. Following the repeal of the Act there will be a break in the current citation. It is necessary that it is inserted as a result of section 5 and the repeal of the 1995 Act and I ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Howlin

Is it possible for a large map of each constituency to be provided for Members?

Mr. Dempsey

I will check whether this is possible, but I think it will be. It is something we would all value and I will see if appropriate arrangements can be made.

Mr. Howlin

They would be particularly useful for Deputies in new constituencies.

Mr. Dukes

The larger the scale the better.

Mr. Dempsey

Perhaps we can mark Labour Party branches.

Question put and agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment and passed.

Mr. Dempsey

I thank the staff of the Houses, my staff and the Members of the Opposition for their co-operation in passing the Bill.