Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Oct 1998

Vol. 494 No. 3

State Property Bill, 1998: Second Stage.

Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. Walsh)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time." The Bill before the House essentially proposes to amend the State Property Act, 1954, to remove references to the National Stud Farm from the First Schedule to the Act.

This amendment is of a technical nature and is designed to address current circumstances which were unforeseen when the National Stud Act, 1945, was enacted by the Oireachtas. That statute vested the National Stud Farm in the Minister for Agriculture and while it did not prohibit the sale of any part of the National Stud Farm it did not contain any provisions providing for the sale of such land.

Section 10 of the State Property Act, 1954, provides a general power to a Parliamentary Secretary with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to sell, exchange, make a grant gratuitously or lease any State land for the time being vested in that Minister. However, the first subsection of section 10 of the Act provides that this power shall not be exercisable in respect of the State land mentioned in the First Schedule to the Act. Among the properties listed in the First Schedule is the National Stud Farm.

The issue of the power to sell part of the National Stud Farm has been brought to a head by the ongoing work on a motorway to by-pass Kildare Town. The motorway will go through the lands of the National Stud Farm. The part of the National Stud Farm required for the motorway amounting to 16.58 hectares has been acquired by Kildare County Council by way of a compulsory purchase order. A further 21.66 hectares of the National Stud Farm will be severed by the motorway from the main stud farm and will no longer be useful for the purposes of the National Stud.

While no decision has been taken as to what to do with the severed land I consider it desirable that all options be available to the Minister for Agriculture and Food, including the option to sell the land. While I appreciate that a power to sell the severed land only would meet the present situation, there is now no good reason for continuing to exclude the farm from the scope of the State Property Act and this opportunity should be taken to include it. The efficient management of the farm could require from time to time the flexibility which this amendment will provide.

The State Property Act, 1954, also includes general provisions regarding the leasing of State property; thus when it is amended it will confer on the Minister for Agriculture the power, inter alia, to lease the National Stud Farm or any part of it. More restrictive provisions regarding leasing are contained in section 7 of the National Stud Act, 1945. Since the Minister for Agriculture and Food will have a general power to sell or to lease under section 10 of the State Property Act, I consider that the retention of section 7 of the National Stud Act, 1945, would be inappropriate and the Bill includes a provision repealing it.

Anyone who travels to the south, through Kildare and Monasterevin will be well aware of the need for the Kildare town by-pass. My main concern regarding it was to ensure as little disruption to the National Stud as possible. It would have been ideal if the by-pass could have bypassed the National Stud also but I have been assured by Kildare County Council that there was no other feasible route. In the circumstances I am pleased with the measures which are being taken to ensure that the environment in which the National Stud operates will be maintained and I thank Kildare County Council for its co-operation.

I will give some background information on the National Stud because it is a tremendous national asset. This is the view also of about 100,000 people who visit the National Stud each year. It is appropriate in the context of the proposed amendment to reflect on the origins, history and character of the National Stud. During the past 100 years, since its inception as a stud, Tully has been the nursery of so many world-famous race-horses that its name is almost a household word, synonymous with all that is best in the thoroughbred. Many people will remember Lord Gale, Crash Course, Sallust, Ahoonhora and many more outstanding international thoroughbreds. Shortly before the opening of this century a Colonel William Hall-Walker acquired possession of Tully for the purpose of training his horses there. However, it was soon realised that its resources were more suited to the breeding and rearing of thoroughbreds. It was, therefore, developed as such, until it is now one of the best equipped studs in the world.

During that period, Tully was being laid out as a model stud with every convenience. Many boxes of the latest design were erected, paddocks prepared and fenced, an indoor riding school was built and there were 12 completely enclosed boarded paddocks, each with its own box adjoining. These were, and still are, a unique feature of Tully.

Sometime during 1915, Colonel Hall-Walker decided, in view of the difficulties caused by World War I and increasing age, he would give up his interest in the stud at Tully. He decided to offer the bloodstock at Tully as a gift to the nation to form a National Stud. A condition of this gift of bloodstock to the nation was that the Government of the then United Kingdom and Ireland should purchase Colonel Hall-Walker's interests in the Tully estate at valuation. This interest consisted of the freehold of about 195 acres and a judicial tenancy in respect of the remaining 674 acres and which was subject to the payment of a rent of £813 per annum to the landlord.

In 1922 the Irish Government pressed its claim on the British Government for the possession of Tully. Negotiations continued between representatives of the two Governments from time to time until it was finally decided in 1943 that the British Government would hand over its interest in the National Stud at the end of that year. Things did not change a great deal from 1922 to 1943. However, 1943 was a momentous year, the stud farm being handed over to the nation. On the same date the Irish Government took over the farm equipment and livestock at an agreed valuation, while the bloodstock was transferred to England. The British Government agreed to pay the Irish Government an agreed sum in lieu of rent of the Tully premises from 1922 until 1943.

In January 1944 the Government decided to establish a National Stud at Tully and approved the preparation of legislation to form a company to which the possession of Tully would be handed over in due course. The National Stud Act was passed by the Oireachtas in August 1945 and thus the Irish National Stud Company Limited was formed. Rents continued to be payable to Colonel Aylmer until 28 March 1958 when his interest in the estate was acquired by the State which now holds the freehold to the entire farm.

The debate on the Bill provides the House with an opportunity of reviewing the state of the horseracing industry, particularly from breeders' point of view. It will be realised from the account I have given that there is a great tradition at Tully which must be maintained and perpetuated. I and my colleagues in Government are committed to the future development of the horseracing industry and in particular to the continued existence of the Irish National Stud. This support manifests itself in a concrete fashion through direct funding to the Irish Horseracing Authority, the operation of the National Stud by the State on behalf of the industry and the taxation system. This year we are contributing £10 million to the IHA, an increase of £1.5 million on 1997. Since 1994 much needed capital has been injected into the National Study Company to restore it to profitability and ensure it continues to provide top quality stallions for Irish breeders.

It is universally accepted that the structure of the thoroughbred industry in Ireland is unique. On the one hand there is a relatively small number of stud farms with large numbers of mares and stallions. On the other hand there is a substantial number of farm breeders most of whom have one or two mares producing foals for flat and national hunt racing. While the past few years have been satisfactory for these breeders, they came through a difficult period with very little financial reward from the marketplace. Their involvement, however, is one of the strengths and stabilisers of the thoroughbred breeding industry. They combine a passionate interest in horse breeding with a more traditional farm enterprise such as cattle or tillage.

These breeders must be responsive to the message coming from the marketplace in recent years. With no support or safety net system in place it is vital to concentrate scarce resources on the production of quality stock which will bring long-term benefits. Overall production is tending to increase and returns for 1997 show that thoroughbred foal registration increased by 574 on the 1996 figure, giving a total of 7,130.

In view of our reliance on exports the tax treatment of stallion fee income has been one of the major factors in ensuring Irish breeders have access to world class stallions. Revenue has agreed on principles to be applied in respect of valuation of registration through a brood mare scheme. This matter has been a worry for many breeders and I am pleased it has been resolved as it is necessary to keep the brood mare stock within the country. We have the most outstanding thoroughbred blood lines and the taxation regime has proved very beneficial since its introduction 30 years ago. Comparisons between the roster of stallions and brood mares prior to its introduction with that which exists today shows we have moved from a relatively small country-based operation to one which is outstanding and competitive in an international context.

Breeders have to be patient and often must wait year after year for a decent price for a yearling or foal. The past two years, however, has been a time of cheer for breeders as there were significant increases in yearling prices. Yearlings at Goff's commanded an average price of just over £33,000 last year as opposed to almost £21,000 in 1996. Average yearling prices at Tattersalls remained at the 1996 average of almost £7,500.

I take this opportunity to pay tribute to and thank the board of the National Stud, particularly Mr. David Shubotham whom I appointed chairman a number of years ago. He and the board did a superb job in building the stud, getting quality stallions and giving it international recognition. They also improved the financial structures of the stud. There also exists a very fine visitor centre at the National Stud, including the Japanese Gardens, which is visited by more than 100,000 people every year. Mr. Shubotham and the board decided to mark the millennium, something which was both visionary and imaginative. They are now finalising the construction of St. Fiachra's Garden which will be one of the country's gems and a fitting memorial to the millennium celebrations.

Following Mr. Shubotham's request not to be reappointed, I appointed Mrs. Chryss O'Reilly as chairman. I pay tribute to her for the manner in which she used her encyclopaedic knowledge of international thoroughbred bloodlines and her unique international connections to aid the National Stud and the breeding industry as a member of the board over the past five years and now as chairperson. Her husband is Dr. Tony O'Reilly who has been one of the handful of outstanding Irishmen who at international level have served the country well over a number of decades. The very significant services done to the State by Dr. O'Reilly is attested to by political, cultural, industrial and literary figures throughout the world.

We have an internationally renowned and historically strong breeding industry. Its economic importance has been recognised in the support it obtains nationally. Export performance remains a critical barometer of the health of the sector. Perhaps of greater importance to the sector is that it is based on a thriving and vibrant racing industry. For many, including owners and breeders, racing is an important industry. It contributes significantly to employment, exports and the tourist trade. The esteem in which our horseracing industry is held internationally and the importance of the industry to our domestic economy cannot be overestimated.

In recent years the IHA has suffered badly from underinvestment and competition from other leisure sports. Today's generation has got used to being offered a very high class range of facilities at entertainment venues. Gone are the days when people are prepared to put up with second class facilities and services. The horseracing industry has a significant job on hand to attract newcomers, male and female, young and old from all walks of life. I have some interest in horseracing as a means of recreation. It is an exciting sport and I am satisfied that the potential exists for significant growth provided there is proper marketing and facilities are maintained at a leading international level.

I have been most impressed by the work of the IHA since I established it in 1994 and I pay tribute to its chairman, Mr. Denis Brosnan, and the board. All the people I mentioned have very important jobs in their own right and are very committed in industry, enterprise and commerce. Yet they put much time aside for the service of the State. They get little enough by way of compensation for their work and they deserve our appreciation.

The board and chairman of the IHA have done a tremendous job in developing a strategy for the thoroughbred racing industry. The board has produced a plan up to 2001 which deals comprehensively with all aspects of the industry from the manner in which it is administered to how difficulties concerning racecourse development, betting and prize money should be tackled. It is an ambitious plan which has already got a kick start with the opening of the ulta-modern racecourse at Mallow, County Cork, and the provision of a new stand at the course in Galway. There are also new facilities in Ballinrobe while my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Davern, opened new facilities in Clonmel. Early this year I opened new facilities in Listowel and Tralee. In Tramore when the racecourse seemed to be in jeopardy people put their hands in their pockets and ensured the facility was maintained.

Perhaps the most important element of the plan was the establishment of the capital development fund which will see an investment of up to £42 million in racecourses over a relatively short period. This initiative represents a key turning point for the sector and I am confident it will ensure its ability to expand and develop in a planned manner.

I am very pleased to introduce the Bill. It will be helpful to the National Stud which is a national treasure. The board of the stud has been doing a great job while the manager, John Clarke, and his assistant, Annette Boland, and their staff have been doing an outstanding job.

The race apprentice school, a facility adjacent to the National Stud, is doing a tremendous job and producing some world class jockeys. I am aware of many young people, some from difficult backgrounds, who have trained at the school and have reached the top of their professions. While we have a very good academic system in Ireland, there is scope for schools such as this. I commend Stan Cosgrove and Derek O'Sullivan who are involved in that enterprise and I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. Connaughton

Fine Gael has no problem with the Bill. I have not heard any complaints about the proposal from anyone outside this House, nor have I had consultation with anyone about it. I have visited the National Stud on a number of occasions. For an enterprise so dependent on space, it is unfortunate the stud is losing approximately 100 acres between the severed portion and the land for the dual carriageway. We have no problem with the proposed measures; the last thing one would want to do is haul stock across a carriageway.

The severed land is now State property and I assume it will fetch a fair price. Would it not be a sensible proposition to commit the moneys realised from the sale back to the stud? I am sure there are many things it could do with the money, given its varied range of activities. On the occasions I visited the stud, I noticed that space was at an absolute premium. When mares from outside the country come to the stallions, they have to stay in the stud for a period of several weeks. I have not spoken to management at the stud, but it would be very serious if in future land adjacent to the stud came up for sale and the stud was unable to purchase it. There is no reason the proceeds of the sale should not be diverted back into the stud.

The National Stud is run by very enlightened and intelligent people. I fully subscribe to the Minister's view that it is a valuable national asset, particularly as a tourist attraction. On the day I visited Tully last year, there was a shortage of parking facilities as people from all over the world and from Ireland were visiting the stud. There are many other attractions such as the Japanese Gardens for people who do not have an interest in horses, I am not au fait with the manner in which the legislation will operate once it passes through the House, but I hope it will state clearly that if the severed portion of land is sold, the funds realised from the sale will be reinvested in the stud and its various activities. I am sure all Members would be in agreement on that. I am not sure whether the severed portion of land is currently being used by the stud. If not, what use is it being put to? Will it be used in some shape or form until a decision is made? One should not allow 50 acres of good land to lie idle. I hope there will be a return to the State on this asset.

It is unfortunate the dual carriageway had to pass through the stud. I recall that many members of Kildare County Council expressed dissatisfaction about the carriageway and Deputy Power will be aware of that.

One could be forgiven for thinking that Ireland is a world leader in the thoroughbred and horse racing industry. Stallions and mares from all over the world were present in the stud when I visited it last year. A large number of people are employed in the stud, which is an industry in its own right. I am not involved in horse racing to any great extent but, as a sport, there is none better. It might not be as exciting as Galway beating Kildare in football, but people derive many hours of pleasure from it. Horse racing is a sport for the poor as well as the rich; everyone is entitled to a flutter from time to time.

The Minister referred to a capital development fund. I am delighted a Galway company has decided to carry out work on the stand at Ballybrit racecourse. That represents a huge commitment, but the Galway Races is one of the biggest events on the racing calendar in July and August. Unless proper facilities are provided, people will not attend race meetings, football matches and so on.

High standards prevail in regard to the breeding of horses at the National Stud. I know people who are involved in horse breeding in a small way but none of them will ever become millionaires as a result. However, if one hits a good bloodline and sells to a continental or international buyer, it is like winning the lotto. When that happens, it is a happy time to be a horse breeder. We acknowledge the effort many horse breeders have made over the years. Many of them never made a penny. They were close to hitting the jackpot on several occasions but something always went wrong.

I remember one occasion when a small horse breeder in County Galway sold an animal to a German buyer at an excellent price. The horse passed all veterinary tests and its bloodline was right. When the horse was loaded onto the transporter its hoof got caught in the runway and it was never sold. It was worth thousands of pounds and then five minutes later the transaction went up in smoke. No insurance covers that. One must compliment the men and women who have spent so many years and so much of their talent on horse breeding They are very important to thoroughbred breeding and horse racing.

Although this is enabling legislation, I presume some Department has a policy to sell this land. I ask the Minister that the proceeds should be given to the company which runs the National Stud at Tully so it can be used for further expansion or for continuing its core principle. I support the Bill.

Mr. Wall

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this enabling legislation. This Bill provokes crucial questions. In order to expand and improve our national infrastructure, should we put all other considerations aside and persist with the development in hand? In such developments should we ensure other considerations associated with natural surroundings or places of national interest are prioritised above the most efficient and effective mechanism of putting new infrastructure in place?

As anyone heading west via Kildare knows, work is under way on a motorway which will by-pass Kildare town. The need for this by-pass is overwhelming. Kildare town is a bottleneck which plays havoc for residents and business people. If the town is to develop, the sooner the by-pass is completed the better. Kildare is a historic town with many interesting features. The by-pass will also help businesses. The possible sale of Kildare barracks will allow further development.

However, the further development of the by-pass will result in the carving up of the National Stud which contributes enormously to our growing equestrian industry through its breeding, training and educational facilities. Kildare County Council has already acquired some of the land contained in the National Stud compound for the purposes of developing the motorway. As a result, the stud has been severed. The area of severed land is no longer useful for the purposes of the National Stud. The Minister for Agriculture and Food has no power to sell or lease the land under current legislation, hence the introduction of this Bill.

If this Bill is passed, I want a number of assurances from the Minister to ensure the status of the National Stud as our most important equestrian centre is not weakened. Like Deputy Connaughton, I ask that the money from the sale of this land be given back to the National Stud, for the development of present facilities or the possible purchase of an out farm. Training facilities and land are needed for foals, mares and stallions. It is important that every possible piece of land available is kept in the remit of the stud.

While anyone passing through Kildare in the past few weeks may have thought that football was the only passion of the county, Kildare is the heart of the horse industry. The National Stud has given this industry huge national and international importance and I hope it will not be undermined by this Bill.

As the Minister said, the IHA has been good to Kildare as regards the development of horse racing facilities in the county. Next Monday a new stand will be opened on Naas racecourse. Punchestown and the Curragh have also been developed. These three magnificent facilities give a focus to horse racing in Kildare which is the envy of everyone in Ireland. Praise should be given to the IHA for the development of these facilities which are 20 minutes drive from Dublin. It is important that we have such facilities for the development of the horse racing industry. Everyone involved with those three developments is to be congratulated.

I would like the Minister to reassure us that the sale of these lands will not be to the detriment of the National Stud and that it will be compensated. There is no reason wider powers should be vested in the Minister as regards the remainder of the National Stud property. The powers given to the Minister applying to the sale or rent of the property should be limited.

There are other implications arising from the development of the Kildare by-pass. I am seeking a reassurance that every step be taken to protect the Pollardstown Fen. This was the most contentious issue as regards the by-pass. Everyone in Kildare agreed it was necessary but many saw the possibility of damage to the Pollardstown Fen, which is of international renown. From an environmental point of view, it is vital that this is protected. I am sure the effective officials of Kildare County Council will ensure that is done.

It is vital that the Japanese Gardens has access to the motorway. I am delighted a second garden will be developed as a millennium project. As Deputy Power and I know from passing through that area many times during the week, it is marvellous to see the number of tourists who visit the gardens. People may not realise how many people visit them. I congratulate the National Stud for ensuring the further development of a magnificent tourism attraction.

Kildare is one of the worst bottlenecks in the country and it is time a by-pass was constructed. Everyone living and working in Kildare will have a more peaceful life because of the motorway which is a much needed comfort. Kildare is lucky as regards infrastructure. Practically the entire county is served by either by-passes or links. Further development of the N7 to include by-passing Monasterevin will result in an unbroken run of good road between Dublin and the Portlaoise bypass. That will allow the towns on that route to develop further, as was the case with Newbridge and Naas. I hope Kildare and Monasterevin will experience similar development.

However, there is a problem on the other side of the county. Kilcullen has been bypassed but we await the alignment of Crookstown and Timolin to join the alignment of Bolton Hill and the bypass of Castledermot. That would complete the necessary infrastructure in County Kildare to allow its main towns to develop. The only other town in the county with major traffic problems is Athy where there is a need for an outer or inner relief road. Controversy over which option is best is currently raging in Athy. The National Roads Authority should arrive at a quick decision on the issue because Athy, like the other towns, has a right to develop.

County Kildare acts as a corridor for a vast amount of the country's traffic. Even when the bypass is constructed at Kildare town it will not serve the town or county effectively unless the rest of the infrastructure is put in place. Furthermore, the bottleknecks in Athy must be addressed.

The Minister spoke about the racing industry in Kildare town. I, too, congratulate everybody involved with the equestrian school. Some of Ireland's top jockeys were trained at that school and it is important that the jockeys who currently attend it are given a proper academic education in addition to an equestrian education. I am delighted at how the school has developed. It is renowned throughout the world and attracts interest both as a structure and as a school whose places are highly sought after by foreign students.

The equestrian school is a major factor in the development of the equestrian industry in Kildare. That industry is probably the major industry in the county in terms of employment. Everything possible must be done to ensure its continued development.

I support the legislation. However, if finance becomes available as a result of this legislation the Government should ensure it is either returned to the National Stud to develop its facilities or to purchase an out farm on which those facilities could be located. It is essential that the development of the National Stud is not hindered by the removal of this stretch of land. The legislation will be of great benefit to Kildare, particularly to the development of Kildare town, the Japanese Gardens and the provision of the infrastructure necessary to facilitate the development of all towns in the county.

Mr. Power

As a regular visitor to the National Stud and the Japanese Gardens, I was disappointed to learn it would be necessary to divide the facility to build the Kildare town bypass. However, the county council believes it is the only real option for the town so the division must be seen as a necessary evil. Anybody who travels through Kildare town, particularly at weekends, will be aware of the necessity for a bypass of that town and of Monasterevin.

It is disappointing that there is so little co-operation between local authorities on planning matters. The need for a bypass of Newbridge, Kildare, Monasterevin and Portlaoise was known for some years but the local authorities involved have basically pursued their own projects. There was little co-operation between them whereas if the bypasses concerned were worked on jointly there would have been a significant reduction in the overall cost. Large tranches of funds came from Europe for this infrastructure and it could have been constructed at a cheaper price. However, the bypasses of Kildare and Monasterevin are under construction and motorists will be keen to see them completed as soon as possible.

The Minister indicated that some of the land being divided will not be suitable for or be required by the National Stud. While no decision has been made about that land, I urge him to consult local organisations before he decides on it. The barracks in Kildare town were closed recently and there will probably be major changes in the town in the next few years. I hope the Minister will consult local people to see if the land can be used for the benefit of the community rather than being sold. The area involved is 21.6 hectares so it is a valuable parcel of land.

I pay tribute to the people who have served on the board of the National Stud. It went through some difficult periods but in recent years it has been an outstanding success. The stallion Indian Ridge has stood there for a number of years and he is considered one of the most successful stallions in Europe. He has sired a number of winners. Members who are familiar with the horse sales will be aware that the foals and yearlings from Indian Ridge are much sought after.

Racing is a gamble at any time. The National Stud displayed great foresight in acquiring Desert Prince in June. The stud purchased the horse after it won the Irish 2,000 guineas. Unfortunately, the horse was beaten in Ascot but since then it has won the Prix de Moulin in France and, last week, the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes in Ascot. It is an extremely valuable property and if he wins his final race, the Breeders Cup, the National Stud will have a bargain. Members are often critical of the decisions of State bodies or boards but in this case the gamble by the National Stud will pay huge dividends in the long-term.

The stud has also acquired Croco Rouge which is the current favourite for the Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe next Sunday. While there will not be any Irish trained runners in the race there will be great Irish interest in the performance of that horse. Let us hope he produces the goods on the day. The chairperson of the board of the National Stud Mrs. Chryss O'Reilly, has taken great interest in its activities. She has wide connections on an international level which she has used to the advantage of the stud.

The racing industry is an important industry which provides much employment in County Kildare. Kildare is seen as the home of horse racing and long may that continue. The visitors' centre in the National Stud has been a great success. It attracts an increasing number of visitors each year, with more than 2,000 people visiting it each week. That has a tremendous spin-off for the town itself and I hope it can be improved upon after the by-pass is opened.

I thank those involved in the National Stud for their association with the Kildare football team. Anyone who drove through Kildare town last week will have seen a big sign which stated: "The National Stud for the fillies and the Sam Maguire for the lilies". Unfortunately, it did not work out that way and I know there were many disappointed people in Kildare last Monday evening when the team came back to the town square without the Sam Maguire cup. No doubt, we can rectify that next year.

The racing industry is a very important part of Kildare, although we may take it for granted when we live there. Apart from the jobs aspect, which is important in putting food on the table in many County Kildare homes, as a leisure activity it is supported by a large number of people in the country and we are grateful for that.

I appeal to the Minister to encourage, if that is the right word, more horses to run in the President's colours. Previously, we saw the President's colours being carried on racecourses, but this has not happened in the past couple of years. The Minister should examine the matter to see how he can improve it. A previous President had a horse called Seskin Bridge which finished second in the Grand National. The President's colours offer a great window of opportunity for the racing industry and it is something we should avail of. I would like to see the colours being carried in the near future, particularly in the national hunt area which is not as expensive as flat racing.

Deputy Connaughton mentioned small breeders. People who speak with authority on the subject say that one sure way of making a small fortune in racing is to invest a large one, and there are many who will bear out the truth of that statement. Many people are involved in racing, not in the same league as Coolmore Stud but in a small way. We must acknowledge the tremendous contribution the Coolmore operation has made to racing, bringing it to a level unparalleled anywhere else in the world.

The industry is growing all the time as more people become interested in racing. During the summer I read that a new racing syndicate has been formed in Leinster House with a few new owners. I wish them well with their investment and I hope that when the day comes they will let us in on it.

I must compliment the Irish Horseracing Authority on the professional manner in which it has handled its brief to develop racing. We have far too many racing days, however, and we do not have the population to sustain them all. Something will have to be done to rectify that situation.

Over the years many people have been critical of the fact that facilities at race courses were quite poor. To a large extent that has now been rectified at nearly all race courses. As Deputy Wall outlined, we have seen major improvements, particularly in County Kildare at the Curragh, Punchestown — which is unequalled in Europe — and Naas racecourses. At Naas next week we will all get to see the progress that has been made there.

Anyone involved in racing must realise that they are competing with other attractions and unless they provide proper facilities people will go elsewhere. There are all sorts of attractions, sporting and otherwise, and racing must provide proper facilities and services if it is to attract the customers that are so badly needed at race tracks.

I want to say a few words about the Race Centre in Kildare, the brainchild of Mr. Stan Cosgrove. It has had tremendous success over a number of years and has been well supported by trainers and a number of owners also. In the past, if a young person wanted to become involved in racing they were apprenticed to a trainer and history shows that a small percentage of them made the grade. It is a bit like a vocation, however, because many tend to stay in the industry. Apart from the horse racing aspect, the Race Centre has succeeded in educating apprentices in all aspects of racing. A number of them who do not manage to become jockeys take up employment in other areas of the industry. Apprentices from that school are currently employed all over the world in every area of the racing industry. It has been a great success and many of the top jockeys riding both in Britain and Ireland today have gone through the Race Centre. A young man from Kerry, Mr. Timmy Houlihan, is one of the youngest apprentices currently at the school. On his first ride in his native Kerry he rode a winner, so they are still managing to produce them in Kildare. I thank everyone involved in the Race School for their great work in improving the lot of those involved in racing and I wish them continued good luck.

I thank the Minister for the interest he has shown in the racing industry generally, and particularly in Desert King. Someone thought for a while that the Minister was the stable lad, but he has taken a great interest in the horse and I know he is on a winner. I wish him well.

Mr. Bradford

I welcome the opportunity this debate affords us to have a discussion not just on the proposed Kildare by-pass but also on the wider subject of the National Stud and the racing industry. I have no difficulty with the legislation which, presumably, is very necessary from the point of view of allowing the by-pass to progress. I trust that over the next few years all of us will benefit from being able to by-pass the town of Kildare, not that Deputy Dukes's local town causes me any great difficulties.

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy is welcome any time.

Mr. Bradford

I am sure the people there are very pleasant but at 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon it can be pretty congested so the quicker we can move around it the better.

As we are discussing the National Stud and the racing industry generally, I wish to make a number of suggestions to the Minister, Deputy Walsh. I recognise and appreciate his own personal interest in the development of the racing industry. When discussing horseracing, we cannot ignore the fact that it is more than the so-called sport of kings; it is an industry that employs thousands of people at various levels such as breeding, training and race courses. We are talking about a major sport which is a jewel in the crown of Irish industry. It is an industry which can employ more and more people in the future and we must continue to develop and expand it.

The peak at which the racing industry stands today internationally is due in no small measure to the success of the National Stud. The Minister provided us with an interesting background and history of the National Stud. The involvement of many people with the National Stud over the years has brought the racing industry to its current high level. It now looks as if moneys will become available from the sale of some National Stud lands over the next year or two. We must ensure that the suggestion of Deputy Connaughton is taken up — that this money should be available for reinvestment in the National Stud and in the horse industry generally.

The National Stud is now competing at a very high level. There was a time when only a few international studs attempted to purchase the best stallions. We have now reached the stage where top class stallions can cost up to £20 million each and resources must be made available for the National Stud to compete at that level. The National Stud is basically dependent on the taxpayer and I hope that moneys raised from the sale of these lands will be made available to ensure the National Stud will have the required purchasing power.

The National Stud is competing with big players, not just at home but abroad, and it will need those resources to allow it to purchase the top quality stock with which it has become synonymous. The National Stud must consider other aspects of the industry. The situation in which the racing industry now finds itself has altered dramatically over the past 20 years. Substantial money is now available to racing industries in the Middle East. While we welcome them into the horse racing industry, they are a major challenge to the National Stud, Coolmore Stud, Rathbarry Stud and our other major stud farms. If the Irish industry is to survive and expand, we must support it in every way possible.

We must support small breeders. The National Stud has played an important part in helping small breeders to develop their enterprises over the years. However, because stallion fees are so high — they must be to justify the large purchase price paid for stallions — we must ask ourselves what we can do to assist small breeders. We must ask the National Stud what it can do to assist them as it is the mainstay of the racing industry.

I recently studied the fees being charged by the National Stud for its stallions. Deputy Power mentioned the stallion, Indian Ridge, for which the fee is 30,000 guineas. Small breeders would not be able to pay such a price. The lowest fee charged for a National Stud sire in County Kildare is £2,500. That is a substantial fee for a small breeder to pay. We should ask the National Stud to look more sympathetically at small breeders who cannot afford to pay stallion fees of £2,500, let alone £5,000 or £10,000, particularly if it is given more resources. If we cannot support small breeders, we will suffer in the future.

Large breeders have financial resources but small breeders, who are the mainstay of the industry, need support and encouragement.

There is support and assistance for almost every other type of agricultural activity, yet small breeders are given no State support. We must be as sympathetic as possible to small breeders so that their lives are made a little more bearable.

The Minister mentioned the relatively high prices of foals and yearlings. However, two or three years ago prices were at rock bottom. I attend a number of horse sales each year and I have seen foals making £600 or £700 and yearlings making £1,000 or £1,500. No profit is made on such sales and that is why we must try to protect the small breeder in whatever way we can. The National Stud can play a part by making top quality stallions available at economic prices.

I welcome the fact the National Stud is standing a number of its stallions in smaller stud farms throughout the country as many small breeders do not have the transport or the resources to travel 100 or 150 miles to where a stallion of their choice might be available at a reasonable fee. I would like the National Stud to co-operate with smaller stud farms and to stand a large number of their stallions in centres throughout the country where they would be more accessible to smaller breeders.

I would like the National Stud, in conjunction with Teagasc, to organise seminars for breeders, particularly small breeders. The National Stud runs courses which are attended by students from all over the world. The interest being generated world-wide suggests they are top class courses. These courses are needed by many smaller breeders. If they could be organised on a more regional basis, in conjunction with Teagasc as horse breeding is a rural enterprise, we could assist small breeders. I ask the Minister to discuss that possibility with the National Stud.

The Minister said that in the past year thoroughbred foal registrations have increased by 574 up to 7,130. While that suggests a growing industry, we must remember that quality and quantity do not always come together. We must be careful not to confuse an increase in numbers with maintenance of quality. As a result of the low prices being paid two and three years ago, many breeders and owners had no option but to sell animals cheaply. They put stock on the market which might not have been of the highest quality.

I am sure the Minister is aware of what happened in the half-bred and showjumping industries over the past ten to 20 years. The showjumping industry was affected by poor quality horses. Some 20 to 30 years ago the showjumping industry was the best world-wide. As a result of poor breeding policy and an oversupply of poor stock, that situation changed. Only for the remedial action taken in recent years the half-bred and showjumping industries would be in severe difficulty.

We must be careful not to allow the same thing to happen to our racing industry. Competition has never been higher not just from the Middle East, but from Australia and New Zealand. The

Japanese and Indians are now taking a fresh interest in racing and they have huge financial resources. We must ensure that our breeding stock is of the highest quality. We must be careful that we do not confuse an increase in quantity with an increase in quality.

It was suggested a number of years ago that a scheme should be introduced to get rid of poor quality stock in the half-bred industry. The public reacted strongly as it believed the proponents of such a scheme favoured the shooting of every second mare. However, that was not the proposal. We must consider giving incentives to breeders to trade up rather than trade down. We should encourage a breeder who has a mare that is not of top quality and has produced a foal worth 500 to 1,000 guineas a year to take it out of commission and to invest his money in better quality stock. It could be a once-off scheme but it should be considered because we cannot afford to run down our quality brood mare stock and replace it with a larger quantity of inferior animals.

I support the retention of the tax exemption on stallion fees. This measure was introduced many years ago and it has produced dramatic results for those working in the bloodstock industry. We cannot afford to change it. With international competition from the Middle East, Japan and the United States, unless we retain that incentive our stud farms will become second class. I fully support the retention of the scheme.

Will the Minister consider the introduction of a scheme for the owners of brood mares because it is not acceptable that all the incentives fall on one side of the equation? Many breeders own one or two mares, an expensive occupation which yields low profits. I hope the Minister will consider introducing an incentive, tax-based or otherwise, to cater for the owners of brood mares. A person who owns between 15 and 30 animals operates at a certain level but farmers in rural areas who breed from one or two mares must be provided with incentives. I hope the Minister will consider some proposals in that regard.

The Minister referred to the horseracing industry and I agree with his statement that facilities in this area require further improvement. The racecourse and facilities at Mallow have been transformed as a result of investment from the Irish Horseracing Authority. However, many similar projects are required in locations throughout the country. People who attend race meetings are no different from those who attend other sporting events and they require and demand top class facilities. I hope what has been achieved in Mallow in recent years will be reflected in improvements to other racecourses throughout the country in the future, which will help to increase the numbers of people attending race meetings.

Attendance at race meetings is not as good as it should be. One of the worrying aspects of this problem is the age profile of racegoers. We are failing to attract new and young spectators to race meetings. Young people represent the future life-blood of the industry. Consideration must be given to this problem and measures put in place to resolve it. The advertisement of the greyhound industry in recent years has been effective and it has resulted in an increase in attendance at greyhound race meetings. We must take similar action in respect of the horseracing industry and try to attract younger people. I would like to see increased advertising, be it on radio or television or in newspapers, to encourage people to attend race meetings. Further promotion is required.

My final point regarding the horseracing industry relates to prize money. I know the Minister does not hold the purse strings in this regard but the prize money on offer in horseracing is totally inadequate. I am sure it averages only 40 to 50 per cent of the prize money available in the past. Some major owners such as the Aga Khan and the Godolphin Organisation have complained about the level of prize money available in British and Irish racing. If multi-millionaire owners claim that prize money is insufficient, what must be the position regarding smaller owners and breeders? I hope the Minister can discuss with the powers that be the need to increase the level of prize money. If it is not increased substantially in the next 12 months to two years, increasing numbers of people will drift away from the industry. We need the involvement of more, not fewer, people.

We have a strong industry, but there are problems on the breeding, racing and prize money fronts which must be addressed as soon as possible. If the Minister can encourage the appropriate personnel in his Department, in the Irish Horseracing Authority, racecourse managers, etc., to consider these problems, I am sure the industry will be strengthened, more people will wish to own horses, either individually or as part of a syndicate, attendances at race meetings will increase and further jobs will be created. We have a strong national industry. Horseracing is the sport of kings but it is also the sport of the common man and woman. Those who attend at their local betting office on Saturday evenings are not necessarily the people who will be in the parade ring on Sunday afternoons. However, they are all part of the same industry and we must do everything possible to support their efforts.

Mr. Crawford

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the horseracing industry of which I have no great knowledge. Deputies Bradford and Connaughton and Deputy Dukes, who lives in County Kildare, have dealt or will deal in greater depth with issues such as the National Stud, etc.

This is an important Bill in terms of State property and the fact that it will facilitate the construction of a by-pass in Kildare. Given the need for a by-pass in County Monaghan, I hope the provision of funds for the Kildare by-pass will not have a detrimental effect on projects in my county. If I believed that would happen I might not support the Bill. The Bill is part and parcel of the overall process of making necessary improvements to our road structure. When I travelled from my home to Ferns, County Wexford, earlier in the week, my car reached an average speed of 40 miles per hour. In the past, even travelling within the speed limit, one could average 50 miles per hour for the same journey. That is an indication of the dramatic increase in traffic on our roads. We must use the Bill to facilitate necessary improvements to the road structure.

The horseracing industry is very important to Ireland. One need only consider the Horse Show at the RDS, the Galway Races or other events to see the effect the industry has on the profile of the nation. Ireland benefits greatly from the international publicity such events attract. The industry's knock-on effect in terms of tourism is extremely important. That is one of the areas on which we must concentrate our efforts in the future. In my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan, I hope the continuation of the peace process will add to the growth of tourism. An active and progressive horseracing industry will improve available sports facilities and provide added impetus to the tourism industry.

As the Minister stated, the industry is important not only to larger farmers and horse owners but also to smaller farmers and those who breed only one or two horses. I am familiar with a breeder of advancing years who is crippled and one of whose horses competed in Belgium in recent days. The level of bureaucracy was such that if he did not attend the show in Belgium and his horse won he would not be able to collect his prize. Thankfully, we resolved this matter — which represents bureaucracy gone mad — through the use of diplomacy. Small breeders who are hard pressed financially or whose health is not good should not have to endure such difficulties to obtain that to which they are entitled.

One of the issues to which reference has not been made is that of cull horses. The Minister will be aware that I raised this matter with his Department on a number of occasions. We may not like discussing it but horses, perhaps because of old age or some other reason, must be disposed of. There was a valuable facility designed for this purpose in my region, based in Dundalk, but it is no longer available. Given the raft of regulations governing the live export of horses, many small and medium farmers face serious problems in finding a means to attract a reasonable price for animals or to dispose of them. Will the Minister give further consideration to this issue?

The main reason I wished to make a contribution to the Bill was to obtain clarification because the Bill not only deals with the agriculture industry but also with State property. What other State property is dealt with under the Bill? I specifically refer to the army barracks in Castleblayney and others that might be affected. Deputy Power said in light of the stud issue in Kildare, he wished to see consultation with the people involved locally. Subject to clarification on who has the right to sell, I wish to see the Government fully consult with people at local level regarding the sale of Castleblayney army barracks or perhaps take kudos from the individual who handed over the National Stud as a gift to the nation. The Minister for Defence might agree that the army barracks be given also as a gift to the nation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a tenuous link to the National Stud.

Mr. Crawford

It is still State property, which is specifically referred to in the Bill. We have the right to know whether this property and many others qualify under the Bill.

On the horse industry, it is important that support be given to smaller breeders and others involved in the training and upgrading of horses. I appreciate that Leader and other schemes can provide help in this area. However, it is vital that small and medium sized breeders be given the help necessary to retain them in the industry. There are not many other options. The Minister and others in the past promoted such industries as deer farming, etc. but the equine industry is the most relevant in terms of an alternative enterprise for small breeders in light of the great difficulties in the market.

Unlike others from the Kildare area who are interested in making sure another property is purchased from the sale of the National Stud and in light of the dire circumstances of farmers nationally I realise this might give the Minister the necessary funds to create a proper rescue package for them, especially small dairy farmers and others not included in the package he produced. That might be a less tenuous link to this Bill, but it is still very relevant.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Minister is looking for the authority to sell State lands in the form of lands comprising the National Stud. He essentially wants the Dáil to give him carte blanche on what to do with the National Stud at any point in the future despite the fact that only a small proportion of the land is affected by the Kildare by-pass decision. I am disturbed that he has given no hint about the plans he or the Government might have for those lands. He wants a totally unrestricted power to dispose of or use them in any way.

That raises serious difficulties. I do not know for what the land might be suitable, but I have noticed a highly disturbing trend in recent times where agencies of the State enter the land market on the same basis as private speculators. This is totally reprehensible and should be knocked on the head. An example is the Eastern Health Board site at Blanchardstown Hospital. The hospital was built in the days of the late Dr. Noel Browne as a tuberculosis sanatorium in a wonderful parkland setting, unusual for an urban medical facility. However, instead of the Department of Health providing the necessary funds for the hospital to carry out a very necessary upgrading and modernisation of the facility, the EHB was pushed into the land market to speculate essentially on that wonderful asset, which has been sold to private developers for a price in excess of £30 million.

This relates to the ethics of the State moving into the private property market on the same basis as private speculators and, therefore, being a part of the disastrous situation that obtains where houses are priced completely out of the reach of ordinary people. For example, if the EHB lands are sold for that price it will work its way through to the price of the houses, which will, of course, be astronomical.

The Government comes into the House on the one hand professing concern about the increase in house and land prices while, on the other, State agencies participate in that reprehensible speculative market. I seek clarification in this regard. Has there been discussion on the lands that comprise the National Stud and what they would and would not be used for after the by-pass tranche is removed? Is it proposed to speculate on them as has been done elsewhere?

There is little confidence in many quarters in some agencies of the State and the question of political involvement or influence on the terms under which State lands are sold. For example, there is the scandal of Glending Wood in County Wicklow. It was an invaluable State asset sold a number of years ago for a fraction of what it was worth in terms of its sand and gravel to a major concrete producer and quarrying company. It was sold for a pittance which bore no relation to the real value that lay underground. It was a grotesque abuse of State lands and one which local action groups saw fit to refer to one of the tribunals currently taking place. The Minister should address these issues and be much more precise in this regard in the Bill.

Another issue which has been raised by the Minister and previous speakers is that of the racing industry. While glowing tributes have been paid to the industry, nobody alluded to the reprehensible tax scam in it. It is an incredible fact that millionaire owners of prime stud farms do not have to pay one penny in taxation on a significant part of their activities.

Mr. Dukes

That is not a scam, it is the law. It is perfectly legal and there is a very good reason for it.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Because it has been endorsed by major political parties, put through the Dáil by those parties which have a majority and is “legal” does not mean it is not a scam. Ordinary PAYE taxpayers would consider it a scam.

Mr. Dukes

It is legal. The Deputy is the only one out of step.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I will continue to march to my drum. The Deputy should not worry about that.

Mr. Dukes

Carry on Deputy.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy and those in Drumcree.

Mr. Dukes

Carry on marching in blissful isolation.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Members here are not marching to the drums of the millions of PAYE taxpayers. While I might seem to be marching to my own drum in here, I am listening to the voices——

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy is listening to voices all right.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West):——and the drums of a million PAYE workers and reflecting their anger about the injustices in the taxation system. Prime stallions can earn £500,000 or over £1 million over a short period, on which not a penny is collected in taxation. Yet the most humble working class employee who has to work for slave wages of £2.50 or £3.00 an hour has to pay tax on his or her meagre income. I am amazed that was not alluded to when Deputies used the opportunity of this debate to wax lyrical about the horseracing industry in general.

Mr. Davern

Has the Deputy heard of a horse called Cigar?

Acting Chairman (Mr. Briscoe)

Deputy Higgins, please without interruption.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Because I have to spend so much of my time addressing the intense problems caused by capitalism in my constituency——

Mr. Davern

I have seen the Deputy use the bank.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West):——I do not have much time to swan around the prime racecourses here or to go to Cheltenham——

Mr. Dukes

Or to the Curragh, Fairyhouse or Punchestown like the ordinary people.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West):——which seems to be an occupation of some leading politicians. I support the thousands of Irish workers who are involved in the horseracing industry and I want a better deal for them. Many of them are also exploited in terms of low wages, a matter which is glossed over.

The Phoenix Park racecourse land is owned by a conglomerate of millionaires with hallowed names in the horseracing industry who shut down the racecourse, which was very successful and could be again. That conglomerate seeks to speculate on the property market by selling that land for housing. Those are the issues ordinary people want addressed rather than Deputies waxing lyrical about general matters relating to the horseracing industry.

Mr. Dukes

People want to live in houses, there is a demand for them.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Deputy should know that ordinary people are priced out of the market and cannot afford to buy houses. The Deputy's party said it would raise this issue during this Dáil session. I hope it does and I will wait to hear what it has to say.

Mr. Dukes

We will do more about it than the Deputy.

Mr. Davern

There should be no discrimination against people who need a house, irrespective of whether they can afford one.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy in possession should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Dukes

We are trying to help him.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): When we have a political system in which powerful vested interests, particularly the millionaire section, contribute vastly to the two main political parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, the interests of ordinary people are distorted and come second. I want the Minister or the Minister of State to tell me their plans for the National Stud, in which they seek to have a free hand in its sale or lease. Do they intend yet again to bow to powerful private interests and use a State asset for the enrichment of a few individuals?

A worker who is actively involved in the horseracing industry told me that employers in the industry cannot find enough workers with the necessary training and ability to take up the jobs that exist here and abroad. There are many young people in urban and rural areas who have a passionate interest in horses. However, instead of developing that interest in working class communities, as a conduit for young people to move into permanent employment, there has been a one-sided repressive enactment of the Control of Horses Bill. That Act seeks to snatch horses from young people in the working class communities without putting in place structures and support mechanisms to provide horse and pony clubs and training in veterinary care, which would have been a means for those young people to develop their interests and build a career in the industry.

The Minister waxing lyrical about the merits of the horseracing industry does not sit well with what I see in working class communities, young people who would like to build a career in the industry not being given an opportunity to do so. The Minister and the Minister of State said they will make funding available to support those clubs. I accept that, but the majority of the money that was allocated by the State to county councils in Dublin to deal with this issue was used to round up and dispose of horses. It is not appropriate for horses to graze on public greens or to roam the streets. That is dangerous and no one wants that. If, however, instead of a purely repressive mechanism, money had been invested in setting aside lands, providing facilities for horse and pony clubs and training, which I advocated on a number of occasions here, the social benefits would have been immense. It would have assisted a section of our youth to overcome alienation. Instead they have become even more alienated because of the activities of the State and local authorities, which they perceive to be very one-sided.

As the Minister's remarks on these issues were wide-ranging, the points I raised should be addressed by the Minister or the Minister of State when replying. Since this Bill is specific and relates particularly to many hectares of the National Stud, the Minister must tell us if there have been discussions on the purposes for which the severed land will be used. What does the Department intend to do with it? I assume the Minister would not have introduced the Bill unless he and his Department had something in mind for it.

Mr. Dukes

It is always interesting to listen to Deputy Higgins on these issues. He said much about the market for land, speculation on land and tax arrangements. However, we should bear in mind that Deputy Higgins monotonously approaches all debates with a Marxist point of view. The Deputy claims to be a Trotskyite and that this gives him some type of sanctity that ordinary Marxists do not have. However, he comes from a Marxist point of view.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I am a democratic socialist.

Mr. Dukes

Under the Marxist system, the state is the only market for land. This system was in operation for 70 years in a substantial part of Central and Eastern Europe, which has now been liberated, and under it the state viciously, savagely and pitilessly exploited, impoverished and killed millions of people. It never gave them the opportunity to have the democratic debate in which Deputy Higgins can participate.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Under Standing Orders I ask Deputy Dukes to give way for 30 seconds to allow me respond to his comments.

Mr. Dukes

I will not give way. The Deputy must sit and listen to my contribution because the people who listen to him deserve to know about the system he represents.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Deputy is again confusing Stalinist totalitarianism with democratic socialism.

Mr. Davern

Deputy Higgins forgot to count the bodies.

Acting Chairman

I ask Deputy Higgins not to interrupt and Deputy Dukes to address the Bill.

Mr. Dukes

I will do so. Deputy Higgins mentioned the use that might be made of the land and the taxation of stallions. He also mentioned allegations of corruption in the system. However, the Deputy comes from a system, which he calls democratic socialism but I call Marxism, where everything is run from the centre and which is, by its nature, intensely and irremediably corrupt.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): That is totally wrong. The Deputy will have to give way if he continues to slander me in that manner.

Acting Chairman

This matter is not relevant to the Bill.

Mr. Dukes

Any accusations that could be made about the capitalist system are only trotting after the type of corruption royally practised by the systems which Deputy Higgins tries to defend.

Acting Chairman

I ask Deputy Dukes to speak to the Bill.

Mr. Dukes

I am delighted to welcome the Bill. To ensure Deputy Higgins is aware of my stand-point, I admit I am biased about the Bill because I have great personal affection and respect for the National Stud for many reasons. I live approximately one mile from it and it is a pleasant place to walk, particularly in winter, to see what is happening and collect one's thoughts. I have a special affection for the National Stud because in 1983, when life for me as the then Minister for Finance was difficult, I remember the lift I received late one evening when I was presented with an envelope which contained a dividend cheque for the State from the stud. This was at a time when dividend cheques from semi-State companies were as rare as hens' teeth. I have had an affection for the stud ever since which has continued undiminished. I hope the National Stud will continue for a long time to be a centre of excellence in the horse racing industry in the manner many of my colleagues mentioned.

The need for the Bill arises from a technicality, as the Minister explained. In the rush to legislate, we and our predecessors over the past 70 years have often introduced measures that did not hang well together in terms of the combined effect of several different Acts. In this case, there is need to rectify a slightly anomalous provision of an Act governing the National Stud that does not sit well with the current position. The Minister should be commended for taking this sensible step.

This leads me to reflect on comments I heard last night from a respected political correspondent. He once again came out with the canard that the performance of Deputies should be judged on the amount of legislation passed each session. I made the point previously that I wish some of the commentators would sit back and consider the position for a moment. Although it will never happen, we would do our fellow citizens a great favour if we spent two years rectifying the contradictions and conflicts in existing legislation and codifying statutes rather than passing new legislation. The Bill is a small example of an anomaly and there is also much to be tidied up in the licensing Acts and other areas. I am not impressed by people who measure the record of a Dáil by the amount of legislation passed.

The Bill will open up the way towards rationalising a position in the National Stud. This is necessary because there will be a motorway by-pass of Kildare town. It is a pity the National Stud will be discommoded. The Minister probably shares that view, but the route that will be taken by the by-pass is one of three that was given detailed and careful examination. It was chosen as the best accommodation of all the interests involved. A number of people will be discommoded by it, including the National Stud and others, but that is the price that must be paid for progress.

Detailed and comprehensive consideration was given to all the effects during the public inquiry which was properly held. The conclusions of the inquiry were well explained and motivated. However, my colleagues in Kildare South will agree the tactics that have been used recently to reopen the issue of the route appear to be questionable. There are legitimate interests and concerns about ground water flows in the area and particularly the effect on Pollardstown Fen. However, the public inquiry procedure is designed to deal with and elucidate such issues. It is not good for the process when people who had every opportunity to make their case and raise questions at the public inquiry find a stratagem for reopening the issue after it has concluded. I hope this type of tactic is not used often in the future. If legitimate questions arise, the public inquiry is the place to raise them. If questions are properly raised and submitted in that context, I have no doubt they will be properly examined. Whatever else one might say about the process, there is no doubt the full available level of technical expertise is brought to bear on the preparation of proposals.

It is difficult for the National Stud to have a substantial chunk of land chopped off. However, such difficulties were inevitable given the type of conclusions which had to be reached regarding the by-pass. This makes it even more imperative, as Deputy Connaughton and others said, that any proceeds from the sale of a valuable piece of property in a prime development area near a motorway by-pass should be used to provide more jobs for people in Kildare or more houses for people who may get jobs in the area. It is essential that any gain realised is reinvested in the National Stud and made available for its continued development to ensure it continues to be a centre of excellence in horse breeding and perhaps other areas.

The National Stud has shown that it can bring to bear a good deal of imagination and creativity on the way it does its business not only in horse breeding but also, as Deputy Wall said, in its contribution to tourism in the area. A magnificent job was done in recent years. If one looks today at the National Stud and its associated features and compares it to the position ten years ago, one will find an enormous difference.

Mr. Davern

What about the sign outside the gate last week?

Mr. Dukes

It was a good sign and showed imagination. Unfortunately, the reality did not live up to our imagination. Deputy Wall has measures in hand to rectify the matter for next year.

The funds that will become available from the sale of the land — that is the likely outcome — should be reinvested in the National Stud to develop the industry. It is the recurring fear of small breeders throughout the country that the Minister will conspire in introducing a system under which a levy will be placed on foals. That would be inimical to the interests of small breeders. I do not know what the Minister has in mind but I urge him not to contemplate such a scheme. He should tell those who would like him to do so that he will not do so. His colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Davern, has been approached about the issue.

The use to which the land can be put should be looked at in terms of the contribution it can make to the overall development of Kildare town and its hinterland. As Deputy Wall said, development opportunities may be offered following the closure of Magee Barracks as a Defence Forces installation. A determinedly developmental approach should be taken to the use of McKee Barracks and the land that will no longer be used by the National Stud. We have been presented with a rare opportunity to kick-start economic and social development in Kildare town and its hinterland. The construction of a motorway bypass——

Mr. Davern

Not before time.

Mr. Dukes

——offers a perfect opportunity to devise a well articulated, concerted development plan for the town.

When the Minister for Defence briefed public representatives about his intentions in relation to McKee Barracks in Kildare and Devoy Barracks in Naas I proposed that Kildare County Council should take the lead in devising a set of proposals concerning their use and that of the National Stud given that it has a legitimate interest in the development of its functional area. It is well placed to bring together the various actors who can contribute. The Minister for Defence, the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Kildare County Council and community interests which should be consulted should combine to produce a well articulated development plan to exploit the fact that the by-passing of Kildare town will make economic and social development easier. This should be followed by a rapid commencement of work on the Monasterevin by-pass and the link with the Portlaoise by-pass. The effect of extending the motorway out of Dublin has been to move the bottleneck from Naas to Newbridge to Kildare. It will eventually be moved to Monasterevin and Ballybrittas. To those, including Members of this House, who find Kildare town a thorny problem on Friday evening, to use slightly vulgar language, "they ain't seen nothing yet." Monasterevin will be an even bigger knot.

Deputy Power informed us that the Minister is sometimes mistaken for one of the stable lads at the National Stud which he visits regularly to admire his property. He is to be commended for his enthusiasm. I am sure he enjoys every one of his visits and receives a nice welcome. On his next visit to Tully, when he has admired the birthplace of Patrick Sarsfield, will he avail of the opportunity to meet some local livestock farmers? It would do him good to talk to them for an hour. He would return to his office firmly determined to add a great deal more to the package announced yesterday. What he announced was the string. It was a pitiful and pathetic reaction to a problem being felt throughout the country.

There is a provision in the existing State Property Acts under which in cases where a business goes into liquidation and has not produced the normal company reports the property of the business reverts to the Minister for Finance. The Minister has the power to waive this right. In one case the Minister elected not to do so, although there is a successor who was not involved in the original business and is prepared to put a viable business in place. This amounts to expropriation of a kind Deputy Higgins and his philosophical soul mates would be familiar with but which is out of place in a parliamentary democracy. There are ample remedies under tax and company law. The time has come to look again at this provision.

Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. Walsh)

I thank all those who contributed to the debate in such a positive way. A number of interesting points were made. Everyone spoke eloquently about the performance of the National Stud and about the way it is run. It is a national asset and makes a major contribution to the thoroughbred breeding industry. Its visitor centre is unique. I commend the National Stud on being one of the first State bodies to devise a first rate project to celebrate the millennium, namely, St. Fiacre's Garden which will be an additional attraction at the stud as well as the Japanese Gardens, the Visitor's Centre and the museum where various artifacts can be viewed. Memorabilia concerning Arkle is on display although it is said by some people that Shergar is not too far away. I will pass on the comments about the performance of the stud to the management, John Clarke, and his staff.

As I stated at the outset, the Bill before the House essentially proposes to amend the State Property Act. Under that Act a number of lands are excluded from sale by the State. They include Johnstown Castle, the Bourne Vincent Memorial Park and the National Stud. I assume these properties were included because they were bequeathed to the State as gifts. Because the roadway is going through the property of the National Stud, we are simply removing the National Stud from the First Schedule.

In regard to property being bequeathed to the State, it is some coincidence that in the year in question, 1943, the current Minister and the National Stud were both bequeathed to the State.

Mr. Dukes

I think I would rather have the stud.

Mr. Walsh

The issue of the power to sell parts of the National Stud farm has been brought to a head by the ongoing work on the by-pass to Kildare town. Unfortunately, the by-pass goes through the National Stud where there is approximately 800 acres of very fine land. I visit the area on occasion to take a stroll and meet various visitors, including farmers. I met about 60,000 farmers in Wexford yesterday that I did not know but I had a pleasant time there.

Mr. Dukes

We were there the day before the Minister. He was missed on Tuesday.

Mr. Walsh

I had a pleasant interaction with them and they appreciated that the taxpayers, through the Government, agreed to provide several millions of pounds to help them with fodder for the coming winter.

A number of items were raised by Deputies. Deputy Power suggested that the President's colours should be seen more often on the race tracks. We have had Giolla Mear and Seskin Bridge in the past and, more recently, Ridge Pool but it is an expensive business and I am not sure whether it would be prudent to spend taxpayers' money on race horses. It might be more appropriate to stick to breeding, at which they are excellent, but there may not be much harm in doing that on occasion.

Deputy Connaughton, Deputy Wall and others asked if any proceeds from the sale would be put back into the stud. I am in favour of that. I do not intend to do anything other than what the State body recommends which is also subject to approval by the Department of Finance. The Department of Finance is very sensitive about the proceeds from the sale of State bodies and it is not simply a question of putting those back into the various bodies. The Department insists on having its say in these matters. It is important that adequate resources and finance are made available to the State body.

Deputy Connaughton and other Deputies suggested that in regard to any future decision there should be consultation with local bodies in the Kildare region if either the council or the Kildare community wanted to use a portion of a property that had become available for recreation, housing or whatever, including the race training school. That would be desirable.

Deputy Dukes raised the question of the foal levy. As I understand it, the foal levy proposal was put forward by the Irish Thoroughbred Racing Board which is composed of Irish thoroughbred breeders but there was no question of the Minister for Agriculture and Food promoting it in any way.

Deputy Bradford raised the matter of the National Stud becoming more involved in holding seminars and symposia on the industry. The training courses run by the National Stud are excellent and many people at a very high level in the breeding industry worldwide are graduates of the National Stud. I will bring the matter raised by Deputy Bradford to the attention of the Equine Institute Faculty in the University of Limerick which runs an excellent third level course on equine studies. It also holds a number of seminars but Deputy Bradford was of the view that they should be held on a regional basis, and we can do that.

Deputy Bradford also asked that more advertising, promotion and prize money be made available. Prize money is inadequate and many race courses are now availing of substantial sponsorship from commercial companies. That is the right way to proceed because taxpayers are contributing a great deal to the equine industry generally with income foregone through taxation policy and the provision of a substantial development fund to the IHA of approximately £10 million per annum. It is a matter for the directors of race courses to promote their races by getting sponsorship from commercial companies in their region.

I am pleased with the positive attitude of Deputies to this legislation. It is a technical matter but it allowed Deputies to comment on the industry.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): What about taxing the millionaire stud owners?

Mr. Walsh

We have been fortunate in attracting some of the finest blood lines, stallions and breeding stock brood mares to Ireland. They are the envy of virtually every country worldwide, including the US, Australia and France. They are major breeding nations and they would not be in Ireland were it not for the environment we have here.

There are enormous benefits for the equine industry when one takes into account the amount of stock in Kildangan Stud, Kiltown Stud and Sheshoon Stud in Kildare, Coolmore Stud in Fethard, County Tipperary, and the National Stud, the boarding and visitation of mares, the maternity facilities provided and the jobs provided to all the workers as well as the benefits to farmers who provide good quality hay to these stud farms. That gives this country a status and is an indication that we can do better than most countries in regard to equine stock.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Almost like passports for sale.

Mr. Walsh

It gives a tremendous boost to our tourism industry also. As everybody knows, the IDA has been exceptionally successful in attracting virtually all of the major multinational software, pharmaceutical and health care companies to Ireland in recent decades. In many cases, people first become interested in Ireland because of our thoroughbred industry. That is a major contributory factor.

My main concern was to ensure that there would be as little disruption as possible to the National Stud as a result of this matter and I believe we have succeeded in this regard. I commend the measure to the House.

Question put and agreed to.