John Bruton
Question:2 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the leadership of Sinn Féin. [19314/98]
Ceisteanna—Questions. - British-Irish Agreement.
Proinsias De Rossa
Question:3 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his recent meeting at Government Buildings with a Sinn Fein delegation led by Mr Martin McGuinness MP; if the issue of decommissioning was discussed; and his assessment of the prospects for progress in regard to decommissioning based on his talks with the delegation. [20179/98]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Question:4 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach the plans, if any, he has to meet the British Prime Minister in advance of the 31 October 1998 deadline for the establishment of the executive and the all-Ireland ministerial council under the British-Irish Agreement. [20272/98]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 4 together.
At the outset, I would like to congratulate John Hume and David Trimble on winning the 1998 Nobel Peace Prize. It is a well deserved tribute to two of the principal architects of the British-Irish Agreement. It will be a strong encouragement to the parties to work to ensure that the Agreement is consolidated, thus providing lasting peace, reconciliation and stability.
I indicated in the House on 6 October that I had been meeting and liaising intensively with the parties and others, including Prime Minister Tony Blair, First Minister designate, David Trimble, Deputy First Minister designate, Seamus Mallon, SDLP leader, John Hume, Sinn Féin leader, Gerry Adams and Secretary of State, Mo Mowlam. I had a further very useful meeting on Friday, 9 October with a Sinn Féin delegation led by Martin McGuinness. We discussed the current situation and how we can best achieve progress and I was encouraged by the depth of engagement in the discussions between Sinn Féin and the Independent Commission. Since then I have continued to liaise closely with the relevant parties.
We are all conscious of the difficulty we face on the issue of decommissioning. What we need to do is to achieve a situation where there are common understandings and common ground. There must be confidence on all sides and we are working on that. The people voted in overwhelming numbers for the British-Irish Agreement and we all have a duty, as public representatives, to deliver what the people voted for. We must not allow the situation to fall behind. For our part, the Government will continue to do everything it can to make progress in implementing the Agreement in all its aspects. I believe that with a positive attitude on all sides this issue can be resolved.
As I said in reply to previous questions, I have been in regular contact with Prime Minister Blair. We are continuing our intensive contacts at all levels as we work to progress the implementation of the Agreement in all of its aspects. I will meet with the Prime Minister at the European Council Meeting in Austria this weekend. I will also meet with him when he visits Dublin before long, in response to the invitation to address a joint session of the Houses of the Oireachtas.
I am sure there is agreement across the House that it is totally unacceptable for any illegal organisation to have a massive store of arms. I am sure the House and the Taoiseach will agree that it would be too late after — God forbid — another incident such as that in Omagh for us to become exercised about the issue of decommissioning. It is vital to the process that a start is made to the decommissioning process. Did the Taoiseach raise with Sinn Féin the question of a starting date and a timetable for decommissioning as he has indicated is his view of how the process should take place? Has the Taoiseach discussed with the British Prime Minister his meetings with David Trimble and Martin McGuinness? What progress was made as a result of these discussions and the Taoiseach's discussions, if any, with the British Prime Minister? I conclude by joining with the Taoiseach in congratulating John Hume and David Trimble on their well deserved success in achieving the Nobel Peace Prize.
The Deputy asked a number of questions. I discussed the issue of decommissioning with the Sinn Féin leader. As I always do at these meetings, I emphasised that decommissioning is part of the British-Irish Agreement. All the parties involved have affirmed their commitment to the total disarmament of paramilitary organisations. The terms of the Agreement are very clear. All the participants confirmed their intention to work constructively and in good faith with the independent commission and to use any influence they may have to achieve decommissioning of paramilitary arms within two years. This is important.
As the Deputy said, confidence in the process is an issue. The necessary confidence will be built through the implementation of the Agreement. Good faith must be demonstrated by everybody. There is a need to ensure confidence, trust and progress from all the parties and to move on this issue.
In terms of discussing timetables with Sinn Féin, the Deputy is aware that the answer to that question is that Sinn Féin does not have any arms to decommission. However, I hope it has the ability to use its influence on the Provisional IRA to involve itself in decommissioning. Another aspect is that others who have arms stated recently that they will not decommission. Statements were made on this by Mr. Billy Hutchinson at the PUP conference. This is another problem.
I spoke to the British Prime Minister prior to the weekend before he met Mr. Martin McGuinness and Mr. David Trimble. I also spoke to the Prime Minister today.
Does the Taoiseach agree the distinction is that the loyalist parties do not expect and are not entitled to a place on the executive whereas Sinn Féin expects and, on the basis of the figures, is entitled to a place? Does he agree that the risks to the Agreement at present are enormous? On the decommissioning issue, the possibility is that the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party will lose the support of his party if he accepts Sinn Féin's membership of the executive without a compromise on this issue. Does the Taoiseach agree that, at the very least, a declaration of intent by the republican movement to disarm would be a step forward?
The distinction only exists in terms of the executive. The PUP is also committed under the terms of the Agreement to decommissioning within two years. It is a more urgent issue in terms of membership of the executive and it is creating difficulty at present.
The position is extremely difficult. As I stated previously, I understand both sides of the argument. The Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, and I have been trying to encourage the parties to move to the centre and to reach some solid ground on which we can make progress. Under the terms of the Agreement, Sinn Féin is asked to do all it can within two years to ensure that decommissioning takes place. It was not meant to be a precondition for its entry to the executive. This is the first difficulty. If decommissioning is made a precondition, a bad faith issue will arise.
On the other side, Mr. David Trimble as leader of the Ulster Unionist Party and also as First Minister designate has made a commitment to his colleagues to achieve the beginning of a process of decommissioning before he moves. This is a major problem for him. The Agreement was sold on the basis of various pronouncements and 71 per cent of people voted in favour of it. This leads people to the conclusion that his room for manoeuvre is limited. I also understand that position. It requires both groups to move. We are endeavouring to get them to act in good faith with the International Commission on Decommissioning and to strictly follow the terms of the Agreement. I discussed this with Martin McGuinness. There is real engagement between Mr. McGuinness, as Sinn Fein's chief negotiator, and General de Chastelain in trying to move this issue forward. That will take some time and create undue delays which are not acceptable either. We have to try to find a compromise. There is no easy or obvious answer but we have to continue to try to find a solution. This solution must satisfy the requirements of the British-Irish Agreement that the executive and the North-South ministerial body are set up and that there is a real intent to achieve decommissioning.
I answered the last point made by Deputy De Rossa a fortnight ago. A statement of commitment by the republican movement would be immensely helpful.
In accepting that we all have responsibilities to ensure the implementation of the British-Irish Agreement, does the Taoiseach acknowledge the special role and responsibility of David Trimble as First Minister in ensuring the essential elements of the Agreement — the executive and the all-Ireland ministerial council — are established without delay? Does he also agree the first and foremost constituency to which David Trimble must answer as First Minister is the overwhelming number of people who voted for the Agreement?
When the Taoiseach meets the British Prime Minister, will he raise the grave concern in the nationalist community and among human rights groups, including the Centre for Human Rights and the Committee for the Administration of Justice, at the presence of a serving RUC inspector on the staff of the Patten commission on policing? Is this not also a matter of concern to the Irish Government given the dissatisfaction expressed in this House at the make up of the commission?
The Irish Government has already raised the issue of the Patten commission and asked for explanations on the role of the individual. The British Government and the Northern Ireland Office sees this individual as assisting the commission in gaining access to the views of the RUC. We have made our views known on this issue.
I am aware of everyone's responsibilities under the Agreement. However, I am also aware of people's limitations. It would be nice if people did not have such limitations. David Trimble has limitations on this issue. He cannot move without progress on other issues. I pointed out to the Deputy some weeks ago that it is difficult to solve the decommissioning issue. Sinn Féin has given a commitment to honour the Agreement and stated it will do all it can to convince the IRA to decommission its weapons over the two year period. On the other hand, the IRA stated in April and September that it had no intention of decommissioning its weapons. A clear statement from the republican movement would make it easier to make the argument. I accept Sinn Féin is doing its best to achieve decommissioning within two years. I discussed this issue with most of the Sinn Féin leadership and I accept their position. However, the IRA is saying there will be no movement. This makes the situation very difficult for David Trimble.
While I understand the Taoiseach's responses and the basis for them, he has not addressed the questions I put to him about where the primary responsibility lies regarding the implementation of the British-Irish Agreement and the position of David Trimble as First Minister. As a Westminster spokesperson stated yesterday, there is an approaching deadline, not a target date. Everyone who can impact on this situation has an absolute responsibility to ensure that what is intended from the Agreement is delivered within the specified timeframe. Responsibility for this issue rests in the first instance with the First Minister and, while we are all endeavouring to play our part and face up to our collective responsibilities, I appeal to the Taoiseach, and the Government, to play their part in ensuring that the 31 October deadline is met.
The Agreement states we must move towards the setting up of the Executive and the North-South ministerial bodies by 31 October. The Government is doing all it can to achieve that. However, we cannot ignore the fact that Mr. Trimble is faced with practical difficulties. The First Minister is aware of his responsibilities; both I and the British Prime Minister outlined them to him on a number of occasions.
We cannot ignore the comments which have been made in recent months and the commitments which have been given as those are political realities. Neither can we ignore the intense preparatory work which has taken place on the North/South Ministerial Council, including the establishment of the implementation bodies. We have moved a long way on that with the UUP and the SDLP working together satisfactorily. Discussions have been held with all of the parties, including Sinn Féin. The process of prisoner releases is well under way. Last week the release of a large number of prisoners was met with little comment although many had been involved in very serious crimes over the years. Security installations and checkpoints are being dismantled and troops and military patrols are being withdrawn from many parts of the North. Progress has been made in regard to the Agreement's provision on the Irish language and on the measures to promote reconciliation and agreement. The victims' commission and the policing commission are also up and running. I made it absolutely clear that decommissioning was not a precondition. However, whether we like it or not, the reality is that we must make some progress on this issue.
Does the Taoiseach feel it is somewhat unhelpful to have certain parties lecturing across the divide at others when all parties have obligations to fulfil under the Agreement? Does he agree that while the Agreement does not specify a start date on decommissioning, a timeframe of two years is specified and that implicit in that is the expectation there would be early movement on the matter? What compromise is the Taoiseach advocating? Is he seeking simultaneous movement on this issue with the establishment of an executive? Is that the position the Government is advocating in these delicate negotiations and, if so, will the Taoiseach elaborate on it?
There is good faith in a number of things. Certainly there is good faith on the active participation of parties in working with the international commission on decommissioning. There is very useful work being done in this area. Work and action must be moved to a certain stage, allowing a very quick setting up of the executive and the North-South ministerial bodies. We should not allow things to drift on unnecessarily. We are into the seventh month of the Agreement and the issue must be dealt with. I know what is not possible and I hope I know what is possible. There must be a meeting of minds and trust on these issues.
A difficulty with many of these negotiations is that people would perhaps make a move in some direction if they knew that in doing so they would not be stalled again and asked to make another move, something which continually happens with these negotiations. Sometimes a jump might be useful rather than taking small steps. In this case at least one jump might be very useful.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply on the positive impact of a declaration of intent by the republican movement with regard decommissioning. Does he agree that the Agreement was achieved through compromise on all sides; that there were no winners; that in the current situation no side can be seen to win out; that there must be compromise and that each side must lose in a balanced way some element of their position? Does he agree that, therefore, acceptance by the Deputy First Minister, Mr. Trimble, of a declaration of intent without actual decommissioning would be a compromise for him and that a declaration of intent without actual decommissioning by the IRA would be a compromise for the republican movement and that this would be the most balanced way to achieve agreement by 31 October? Will he indicate how we have reached a position where in the course of negotiations Sinn Féin claimed to be in a position to speak authoritatively on behalf of the republican movement but is now adopting the position that it is only speaking for itself?
As part of the Agreement Sinn Féin is asked to used its best efforts and endeavours to persuade those who have arms to decommission them within the two year period. I believe Sinn Féin is and will continue to do this under the international commission on decommissioning. The early negotiations between Sinn Féin's chief negotiator, Martin McGuinness, and General John de Chastelain have been positive and constructive, something I am aware of from reports from both sides.
The compromise suggested by the Deputy is one of the issues: the question is whether it would work on both sides. I have no information suggesting the republican movement would give a declaration of intent on the matter or whether Mr. David Trimble, as leader of the UUP, would accept such a declaration as going far enough. We must very quickly — we have been discussing this for weeks on end — see if we can move the various arguments to a stage where everybody moves a bit. The Deputy is correct in saying that compromise and understanding is necessary.
We know what the Agreement states — there is no argument about this. It is absolutely clear that decommissioning is not a commitment. The reality of the situation is what is relevant.
Does the Taoiseach agree it is disingenuous to suggest or imply that Sinn Féin, which had a direct role in negotiating the release of IRA prisoners, does not have a role in negotiating the release of IRA arms? He has indicated that decommissioning is not a precondition. However, he has also publicly stated that a starting date for the commencement of decommissioning should be indicated. If decommissioning must take place over a two year period, there must be a starting day for the process. Did the Taoiseach specifically raise the question of a starting date for decommissioning during his recent meetings with Sinn Féin and, if so, what response did he get? Has he explored the possibility of the Red Cross playing a role that would complement that played by General de Chastelain, given that the Oireachtas recently passed the Geneva Convention Act, 1998, which gives the Red Cross a statutory role in the collection of arms in such circumstances? What indication did the British Prime Minister give the Taoiseach of his view on the progress that has been made in this area following his meetings with David Trimble and Martin McGuinnes?
On the Deputy's third question, I did not receive much indication in that regard. In regard to what I stated about Sinn Féin, the terms of the British-Irish Agreement are clear. It calls on all parties involved to confirm their commitment — which they have done — to the total disarmament of paramilitary organisations. In terms of my discussions with Sinn Féin on this issue, Martin McGuinness reiterated his party's commitment to honour the terms of the Agreement and to work through that with General de Chastelain and his team, who were assigned to deal with this issue under the Agreement. I do not see a role for the Red Cross or any other body in this area. The International Commission on Decommissioning, which was set up under an international agreement has all the necessary international expertise and clout to deal with this issue.
q (Dublin West): Will the Taoiseach assure the Dáil that in any forthcoming meetings with the British Prime Minister he will urge him to put the former Chilean dictator, General Pinochet, on trial as an international war criminal?
That is a separate question. The Deputy should table a question on that matter as it is not in order to raise it now.
(Dublin West): Question No. 4 relates to forthcoming meetings the Taoiseach may have with the British Prime Minister and it is in that context I raised the question.
The Deputy can raise this matter in many ways, including on the Adjournment Debate. It is not in order for him to raise it in the context of the questions before the House. I have given the Deputy ample latitude.
(Dublin West): That is very unfair. Question No. 4 relates to forthcoming meetings the Taoiseach may have——
The Deputy should resume his seat and be orderly. He should raise that matter in an orderly manner. He can raise it in a number of other ways, but it is not in order to raise it in the context of these questions.
(Dublin West): I have been waiting in an orderly fashion for half an hour to raise this question. A question before the House relates to a meeting the Taoiseach may have with the British Prime Minister and presumably the Taoiseach will raise many matters with him.
The Deputy must resume his seat. I told him there are other ways he can raise this matter and he should proceed to do that. He can raise the matter tomorrow in an orderly manner, if he so wishes.
Will the Taoiseach agree that for the negotiations and the Agreement to succeed, it is in everybody's interest, particularly those involved in discussions in Northern Ireland, that a moderate leader of the Unionist Party is in place? If the Taoiseach agrees with that, does that not say it all in terms of the need to compromise?
That is a sensible suggestion.