Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Nov 1998

Vol. 496 No. 5

Other Questions. - Installation Aid Scheme.

Austin Deasy

Question:

7 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Agriculture and Food if his Department informed Teagasc, prior to the suspension of the installation aid scheme, that applications not fully completed in respect of land registry dealings, should not be submitted to his Department; if this was contrary to information given by his Department that applications received up to 7 August 1997, which were not fully completed, would be included in the scheme; if he will make available a transcript of the memo sent to Teagasc; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22476/98]

Mr. Walsh

The terms and conditions of the installation aid scheme were detailed in the scheme document and were supplemented by a booklet of operational guidelines which enabled the young farmer, in conjunction with a consultant or an adviser, including a Teagasc adviser, to make a valid application to my Department for installation aid.

The operational guidelines gave a detailed list of the supporting documentation to be submitted with an installation aid application, which included a recently certified copy of the Land Registry folio showing the applicant as the registered owner. The guidelines also pointed out that payment of the premium would not be made until this evidence of registration was received in my Department. There were no other guidelines issued to consultants or to Teagasc in this regard.

In view of the large volume of applications on hand in the Department when the scheme was suspended on 7 August 1997 there was some delay in having all applications examined. A number of the applications on hand at that stage were not accompanied by the Land Registry folio showing the applicant as the registered owner. Rather than reject these applications it was decided to accept any such applications which were accompanied by evidence that the transfer documents had been lodged for registration in the Land Registry by 7 August 1997. Payment of installation aid was then made on receipt of evidence of completion of registration. There was no correspondence with Teagasc in relation to the suspension of the scheme.

Mr. Deasy

The Minister will agree that this is a very unsatisfactory situation. He will be aware that a number of people lodged applications with private planners as well as Teagasc before 7 August 1997. They were given the impression that once the Land Registry details were completed they would be eligible for the grant. My office was advised orally by an official from the Minister's Department that this would be the case and that a letter would issue confirming that, if a question which I had tabled on the matter was withdrawn. Many people had lodged applications in good faith, but those applications could not be finalised because of difficulties in the Land Registry office. Will the Minister agree it is sharp practice that those applications are being disallowed. Given that there is not a huge number of applications, will the Minister entertain them? Many will not fulfil the criteria for the new scheme which is being mooted.

Mr. Walsh

The situation in regard to that scheme and its history is unsatisfactory. Younger farmers made their applications in good faith. Towards the end of 1996 it was signalled that money was running out because, as with many of those schemes, they were front-loaded. Teagasc should have accelerated the processing of those applications and got them into the Department as quickly as possible. Nonetheless about 700 to 800 were with Teagasc when the scheme was suspended. I obtained approval from the Department of Finance to reopen the scheme. The past year has been taken up with seeking EU approval to have the scheme up and running.

Mr. Connaughton

Did the Minister get it?

Mr. Walsh

Yes. The reason for the delay was that the Commission did not want any degree of retrospection and did not want to entertain any applications in the pipeline or with Teagasc. I have obtained approval from the Department of Finance and the Commission for the scheme. I will read my note on the matter so that everybody will be clear about it. The scheme will be open to young qualified farmers, setting up in the farm on or after 1 January 1995. This period of retrospection of the scheme will enable intending applicants under the 1994-7 scheme, who had not submitted a valid application to the Department by the date of suspension of the scheme — in other words those in the pipeline — to apply under the revised scheme and in accordance with the revised conditions. The revised conditions are those drawn up with Macra na Feirme and the young farmers earlier this year.

I expect the vast majority of applications will qualify under the new scheme. I will have a look at any particular hardship cases. I totally agree with Deputy Deasy that the young farmers in question need every encouragement to set up in farming and they made their applications in good faith. It certainly was not the fault of the applicant that these matters were held up. I am keeping a close eye on the matter. I have spent some time with the Commission with a view to ensuring the applications in the pipeline are allowed to be processed. I expect that virtually all applications will qualify and I will look into any hardship cases.

Mr. Deasy

Thank you.

Mr. Crawford

I welcome the Minister's comment that the new scheme will be in operation fairly soon. However I would remind him he promised Deputy Bradford on an Adjournment debate in February that it was open. Will the Minister give the exact date when the scheme will be reopened? Will he accept it is difficult to understand the reason a young farmer must have the deed completely finalised before he qualifies for a grant of approximately £5,500, whereas his counterpart who accepts the EU pension scheme need only have a dealing number? It is difficult to understand how the Department of Agriculture and Food can pay up to £100,000 over a ten year period on a dealing number while young farmers must wait until all the technicalities have been completed — in the event that a piece of land has to be taken off arising from a family settlement — which may take two years, before installation aid is paid. Will the Minister remove this anomaly and give an indication as to when the scheme will be reintroduced?

Mr. Walsh

Deputy Crawford is correct. I obtained Department of Finance approval either late last year or early this year. In any subsequent Adjournment debates I would have indicated that that approval had been obtained. The difficulty arose when I had to get Commission approval. I could have gone ahead with the scheme in February or March but I would have left behind those unfortunate applicants whose applications were with Teagasc, consultants or advisers and I did not want to do that. I understand an estimated 700 to 800 applications are with either private planners or Teagasc. The Commission does not operate quickly. It took until a week or so ago before I obtained final approval. The scheme is reopening. There is no difficulty, it has crossed all hurdles.

Mr. Penrose

I welcome the reintroduction of the scheme. I certainly harried the Minister in the House because it was a pet topic. Will the Minister direct Teagasc to notify those applicants who were in the pipeline and who were unlucky in relation to the cut-off date that they can reapply? A number of those files were sent back to the applicants. Indeed, I produced three of them here from the one family. I hope this is good news for that family in north Westmeath given that there is not much else there except farming. Will the Minister ensure Teagasc notifies applicants who were in the pipeline and who were disappointed?

Mr. Walsh

Yes, I will be glad to do that.

Mr. B. Smith

I welcome the Minister's remarks, particularly in respect of the retrospection element of the scheme and that he will instruct the Department to deal with the hardship cases. Will he give a rough timescale of when the new targeted scheme will come into operation? I welcome the major investment in other on-farm investment schemes, particularly the reopening of the control of farmyard pollution scheme and the dairy hygiene scheme. What start-up date is envisaged for the new schemes? They will be warmly welcomed particularly in my part of the country where there are serious problems because of poor drainage and heavy rainfall and where additional housing and effluent control facilities have to be provided. The funding is welcome. Will the Minister ensure his officials finalise the details of the scheme as soon as possible?

Mr. Connaughton

I certainly welcome the reintroduction of the installation aid scheme. Based on the Book of Estimates, the Minister is making available £10 million over three years. The new scheme will be extremely restrictive given that it normally costs £7 million or £8 million per year to fund it and according to the Minister's Estimate £4 million will be available next year. Do I take it that a huge category of farmers who obtained installation aid heretofore will not get it now? What criteria will the Minister use to ensure the numbers are lowered? Given the amount of money made available the numbers who will qualify will be lower. I welcome the scheme but who will qualify?

Ms Coughlan

The big farmers.

Mr. Walsh

I am pleased the Department of Finance has allocated £10 million for the scheme. That £10 million comes from the Exchequer whereas in the past it was part of the operational programme. The details of the scheme were drawn up in conjunction with Macra na Feirme because it is being targeted at those who most need it.

Mr. Connaughton

Who are they?

Mr. Walsh

It was agreed between the Department and Macra na Feirme that those who most need it will qualify. The amount of funding will be relatively similar to what was available under the old scheme. By and large it will be on the lines of the old scheme but will be more targeted. It will not be chopped completely.

Mr. Connaughton

Completely.

Mr. Flanagan

Will the Minister address the question? In the course of Deputy Brendan Smith's party political broadcast——

Mr. B. Smith

I was dealing with facts.

Mr. Connaughton

Small facts.

Mr. Flanagan

——he asked the Minister to deal with the hardship cases. I put it to the Minister that in such cases, the hardship is inflicted by the Department of Agriculture and Food in dealing with these matters in a bureaucratic fashion. Will he confirm that it was not Brussels which made the requirement that a certified copy folio be handed into the Department before the cheque issues but that the Department introduced that requirement?

Does the Minister accept that it would be far more reasonable and fair if a certified copy transfer deed and dealing number could be regarded as sufficient to allow for the issue of cheque as happens in other areas outlined by Deputy Crawford and in the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs when dealing with social welfare entitlements. Why are different criteria employed by the Department of Agriculture and Food which is causing the type of hardship which the Minister's backbenchers are asking to be cleared?

Mr. Walsh

This is Exchequer money and one must take every possible precaution that the people who are entitled to these payments get them. A certain amount of documentation is necessary to do that. I will, however, look at ways to ensure valid applicants only receive the money while at the same time ensuring sufficient security in the system so that no overpayments or errors in payments are made.

I recall that in the case of non-contributory old age pensions a number of years ago members of the Deputy's profession were, from time to time, not the most expeditious in dealing with many of these applications and held up the poor unfortunate old age pensioners' payments for several months. The deed of transfer had to be signed before they received payment. A modification to that scheme was introduced a number of years ago. Once a person had a letter from a solicitor indicating that the property had been transferred, the pension was paid. It speeded up the process a great deal. I will look at this scheme as well to see if we might expedite matters.

Mr. Deasy

I accept and welcome the Minister's initial reply in good faith. Will the Department communicate with the 700 or 800 cases, whether they apply through Teagasc or consultants, to which I refer as private planners, because some of these people are in considerable financial distress and would like to be reassured as quickly as possible?