John Bruton
Question:12 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if his Department retains records of the diaries and engagement schedules of former Taoisigh; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2503/99]
Ceisteanna–Questions. - Diaries of Former Taoisigh.
Ruairí Quinn
Question:13 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the location of the diaries of successive Taoisigh since 1979; if it is custom and practice to maintain these diaries in his office; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3394/99]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 and 13 together.
There is no set practice in my Department regarding retention of records of the diaries of former Taoisigh.
Does the Taoiseach have access to the diaries of former Taoisigh?
I have not seen them but I understand the diaries of both former Taoisigh, Deputy John Bruton and Deputy Albert Reynolds, are held in a registry of the Department. There are no other diaries.
Did anyone from the Department of the Taoiseach examine independently the diaries of Mr. Charles Haughey before the Taoiseach relied on them as part evidence in support of his recollection about a particular meeting?
Nobody independently checked them.
Did the Taoiseach rely exclusively on Mr. Haughey's word in this matter?
I have already answered that question.
The Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton and I have been office holders in various Departments, so there is no need for us to try to confuse each other. We all know what we are talking about. It has been my experience in the various Departments in which I have served – the Taoiseach has been in two of the same Departments – that the private diaries of the Minister in question, invariably an IPA year book which is excellent, and of the private secretary to the Minister were similar and that before we moved to IT systems the records of ministerial appointments in the Department of Finance or the Department of Labour were held in the Minister's personal diary, which was the personal property of the Minister and the private secretary. Both the Taoiseach and I shared two private secretaries on two separate occasions, so I am talking about a similar practice. Is the Taoiseach saying the practice in the Department of the Taoiseach was such that there was only one ministerial diary belonging to the Taoiseach and that it was in his possession, that the private secretary to the Taoiseach did not have a parallel diary for the Taoiseach's appointments, aside from the private ones, and that when Mr. Haughey left the Department of the Taoiseach he took with him, as he was entitled to, his own private diaries but also the departmental diaries associated with the Department of the Taoiseach? Is that a correct understanding of the current position?
Deputy Quinn's practice and my practice were not the same. I did not keep a personal diary in my Departments. I let the civil servants keep one diary. When I left the Departments, those diaries were left there. If I had been wiser, I would have done what others did and took the diaries with me and then I would have been able to check them on Sunday night.
Few people do.
Not that there was much thanks for checking them on Monday morning. As regards the diaries, a copy of the diary of former Taoisigh, Deputy John Bruton and Deputy Albert Reynolds, are held in a registry. No record of the diaries of Dr. Garrett FitzGerald and Mr. Charles Haughey are retained in the Department. This is also the case with regard to previous Taoisigh. On leaving office, the more recent Taoisigh were given a copy of their own diaries for record purposes, usually a printed copy because the electronic diary is wiped clean. The electronic diary was first used to maintain the Taoiseach's diary in 1987.
Leaving aside the present controversy, these are archival documents. Does the Taoiseach believe, in light of this controversy, that it would be desirable to make the diaries of former Taoisigh, Mr. Haughey and Dr. FitzGerald, available to the Department of the Taoiseach and to put them into the National Archives?
I checked this matter and there are no rules on it. The Cabinet procedure makes reference in paragraph 1.9 to the retention of papers by Ministers and Ministers of State and states that under the Official Secrets Act former Ministers may retain their official documents. They are only asked not to release them. Former Taoisigh held on to their diaries in the past. Even where there was a copy of the record, the electronic record was wiped clean. Because the current diaries of the Taoiseach and Ministers come under the Freedom of Information Act, they are public knowledge since April 1998 and they will remain so in the future.
I appreciate that. In light of what has happened and the difficulties which may transpire for the Taoiseach and his colleagues in the coalition Government, would the Taoiseach consider making a formal request to former Deputies FitzGerald and Haughey to return to the Department of the Taoiseach the diaries which are essentially matters of public record?
He might be writing books.
A copy of the diary can be retained.
The former Deputy, Commissioner Flynn, was not very forthcoming.
Frankly, in the case of either Taoisigh – we are talking about other Members' diaries as well—
All previous Taoisigh, if you wish.
If there is a query, and normally it comes through the Government Secretariat, to the best of my knowledge they always respond and are helpful.
Would the Taoiseach not accept, given that the question was put to the former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey, by an official of his Department – I understand Mr. Martin Mansergh made the inquiry and that Mr. Haughey lied to the McCracken Tribunal – we do not have a guarantee he told Mr. Mansergh the truth?
I believe he did.
If the Taoiseach recalls, this same issue was a matter of controversy at the beef tribunal and eventually certain appointments for the former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey, were adduced in evidence before the tribunal. Have either of the tribunals currently sitting requested the Taoiseach or his Department to furnish the diaries of the former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey?
Is the Deputy asking if the tribunals of inquiry have asked me or my Department for this?
Did they ask either the Taoiseach or his Department to furnish dates of meetings that Mr. Haughey might have had?
Not to my knowledge.