Gay Mitchell
Question:6 Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if the Good Friday Agreement timetable is on schedule. [4545/99]
Priority Questions. - Good Friday Agreement.
Proinsias De Rossa
Question:7 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on his recent meeting with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland; and his views on the possibility of the deadlines being met with regard to implementation of the transfer of powers to the new Northern Assembly and the cross-Border bodies on the basis of this meeting. [4531/99]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 7 together. The overriding priority of the Government continues to be the earliest implementation of the Good Friday Agreement in all its aspects. We are working closely with the British Government and with the political parties in Northern Ireland to achieve this objective.
Considerable progress has already been made in the implementation process and work is continuing. The Northern Ireland Act, which underpins in British legislation the constitutional, institutional, equality and human rights aspects of the Agreement, became law on 19 November last year. Yesterday, the Northern Ireland assembly approved the report of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on the number and demarcation of Government Departments for the new Northern Ireland executive. The assembly also approved proposals relating to the North/South Ministerial Council, the British-Irish Council and the Civic Forum. Agreement has been reached on the six areas for the North-South implementation bodies and the six other areas for co-operation where existing bodies will be the appropriate mechanisms for such co-operation. The Patten Commission on the future of policing, the Crimi nal Justice Review and the International Commission on Decommissioning are continuing with their work.
To establish the shadow executive, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mo Mowlam, must issue the necessary Standing Orders which allow for the d'Hondt system to be triggered. D'Hondt, as stipulated in the Good Friday Agreement, is the system whereby seats on the executive are allocated to parties in proportion to the number of seats they hold in the assembly. The Secretary of State has identified 10 March as a target date by which time all the legislative arrangements necessary for the devolution of powers to Northern Ireland should be in place.
Following the agreement reached on 18 December, officials from both Governments, in consultation as appropriate with the Northern parties, have been working intensively on the detailed legislative and other preparations necessary to ensure, as is required by the Agreement, that the implementation bodies are established and will function alongside all the other institutions as and from the appointed day.
My meeting with the Secretary of State in Dublin was part of the ongoing series of meetings, both at official and political level, between the Governments and the political parties on the full implementation of the Agreement. The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs was also present at that meeting. We reviewed the current situation regarding the formation of the shadow executive and decommissioning, and the comprehensive work that had been carried out on the administrative and legislative arrangements to give effect to the agreement reached on 18 December on the North-South implementation bodies and the areas for co-operation. We also discussed how both Governments could best move these issues forward.
It is a matter of some regret that, despite the sustained efforts of both Governments, it has not yet been possible to resolve the impasse over the formation of the shadow executive and decommissioning. Decommissioning was an essential part of the negotiations and an important element of the Agreement. Like all aspects, the provisions of the Agreement in this area must be implemented in full.
The solution to the current impasse lies in the building of trust on both sides. Both Governments are working on ways in which the necessary confidence on both sides can be built. We are both in agreement that we cannot allow one issue to block progress on full implementation of the Agreement.
The resolution of the decommissioning issue lies in the Agreement itself. There are specific mechanisms and a specific framework for handling the issue. The independent International Commission on Decommissioning, chaired by General John de Chastelain, has a critical role to play in resolving this issue. He is working closely with all the relevant parties and has the confidence of both Governments. The appointment of Martin McGuinness as Sinn Féin's representative to the decommissioning commission was regarded by both Governments as a positive step.
I am sure all sides of the House will join me in warmly welcoming the vote in the Northern Ireland assembly yesterday. The endorsement by such a large majority of the report of the First Minister, David Trimble, and Deputy First Minister, Séamus Mallon, represents a major step forward in the process of implementing the Agreement. It sets in motion the final steps towards the establishment of all the new institutions of the Agreement.
The establishment of the institutions is critical to the success of the Agreement as a whole. In enabling the representatives of the different traditions to work together in partnership and common cause, they will be vital to the underpinning of the new beginning signalled in the Agreement.
In the same vein, we will all welcome the meeting today for the first time at delegation level between the UUP and Sinn Féin. This meeting marks another step in the normalisation of politics in Northern Ireland. This is the kind of politics – the politics of dialogue and inclusion – the people voted for, North and South, on 22 May last year.
We are now entering a critical period in the process of implementing the Agreement. The challenges facing us are undoubtedly difficult, but we must simply find the ways and means to overcome them. We have no choice. There can be no question of a return to the old ways of conflict and violence. The people of this island have voted emphatically for a new beginning. The Government is working intensively with the British Government and the parties to ensure that the will of the people is delivered in full.
I wish the Minister, the Government and all concerned well as they enter into this next phase of the peace process. Given the agreement voted on yesterday in Belfast in relation to the numbers and the demarcation to which the Minister referred, will he agree that if decommissioning were to commence, everything would be in place? Will he agree that on this occasion a form of words cannot be found and we need decommissioning to commence? Is the Minister aware that a recent Belfast Telegraph poll showed that 83 per cent of the overall population believes the disarmament process should commence immediately? Will he agree it is a political necessity that decommissioning commences? Does he have any indication from Sinn Féin or others that the IRA has changed from its previous publicly stated position that it will never disarm?
I saw the results of the poll which called for immediate decommissioning, and of course it would help the process if decommissioning occurred. I have said on a number of occasions that the resolution of this difficult issue lies in the building of trust between Sinn Féin and the UUP. We must continue to work with these parties to create the necessary confidence on both sides. Taking account of what the Deputy said about time being limited and the necessity to move forward with the implementation of the process in its totality based on the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, "parking" of the Agreement, as has been suggested, cannot assist this process.
Both myself and the Minister of State, together with the Taoiseach, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mo Mowlam, and her junior Ministers will spend most if not all our time between now and early March in constant contact with one another and in meetings with the various leaders of the parties making up the assembly. It is my intention to visit the North during the coming week, as part of a series of visits I have been making over the recent and not too recent past, where I will continue intensive talks with a number of individuals in the context of the issues the Deputy's question raises. I appreciate the Deputy's wish that we succeed in bringing about the end result this whole island requires, which is a permanent peace based on all the elements of the Good Friday Agreement.
It may seem like semantics but playing on the word "decommissioning", will the Minister agree that since Semtex, for example, has not been commissioned it can hardly be decommissioned, and that some progress made in handing over Semtex or other weapons must be made? It is not a question of finding a formulation of words, it a question of commencement of the decommissioning process. Nobody in this House expects the IRA or the loyalist paramilitaries to hand over all their Semtex and weapons next April. It is implicit in the Agreement that decommissioning should start somewhere along the way. Is the Minister satisfied that some formula can be found to allow Sinn Féin Ministers take their seats in the Executive by way of commencement of the decommissioning of weapons, Semtex, etc?
The Government has had a number of meetings with Sinn Féin representatives where the issue of decommissioning has been extensively and intensively explored. Of course we would welcome any progress on decommissioning of any type of military hardware, be it guns or Semtex. Both have the capacity to maim and kill people and we want that completely taken out of the peace process. We want movement in this area sooner rather than later, but this problem will only be resolved by give and take on both sides.
The mechanism for dealing with decommissioning – is General de Chastelain's International Commission on Decommissioning. It is important that we allow him to get on with the task. As I already indicated in the substantive part of my response to the Deputy's question, the general is working actively with Mr. Martin McGuinness and the representatives of the other parties to ensure that decommissioning takes place within the two year timeframe set out in the Agreement, but if decommissioning can be achieved over the coming weeks, then it is achieved sooner rather than later.
When the Minister talks about a hope or wish that decommissioning would be achieved in the next few weeks, I presume he is referring to a commencement, a possible gesture or even at a minimum a commitment by the IRA that it will reverse its previously stated position that it will never decommission. Will the Minister clarify which of those three options is the one to which he refers?
Is he in a position to outline to the House the formula which the Taoiseach indicated to the House yesterday had been put forward by the Government for resolving this particular problem? Is he of the view that there can be no Executive established without Sinn Féin and, as a corollary to that, there can be no involvement by Sinn Féin in the Executive without movement on the decommissioning issue?
We want to see all the parties in the Executive. As I pointed out in the substantive part of my response to Deputy Mitchell's question, we want the d'Hondt system to operate. That clearly provides a mathematical calculation based on the number of seats obtained by each of the parties in the Assembly. We want that to happen sooner rather than later.
The option of self-destruction of arms by the paramilitaries themselves is included in the regulations agreed by the two Governments. It is open to the paramilitaries to avail of this option and it is one of the approaches which the International Commission on Decommissioning is exploring. I agree with the Deputy that it is an approach which has obvious potential given the sensitivities and difficulties which surround the decommissioning issue.
My question, which the Minister did not answer, is whether it is his view that the Executive may not be established without a Sinn Féin involvement in it and, as a corollary to that, that there can be no involvement by Sinn Féin in an Executive unless there is movement by the Republican movement on decommissioning. The other part of that question was whether movement implies a simple statement by the IRA that it is prepared to decommission in accordance with the Agreement or whether there is a requirement that decommissioning commence before Sinn Féin can be accepted into the Executive.
If I may quote the—
There is no need to quote from the Agreement because I know what it con tains and what we are trying to do here is tease out the parameters of a solution to this issue.
The parameters of a solution to the issue for the various parties, including the two Governments, is to continue to press forward and to have the Agreement implemented according to the suggested timetable. In the light of the impasse on the formation of the Shadow Executive, it is difficult to be precise about a sequence for the period ahead. In response to questions on the same issue at Question Time on previous occasions, I stated the timetable for which we might hope. Our best thinking on the timetable would be as follows. In late February-March, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland issues the necessary standing orders to trigger the d'Hondt system. At the following meeting of the Assembly, presuming all goes well, the presiding officer appoints the members of the Shadow Executive. In approximately mid-March, Governments complete the necessary legislative and other preparations for the establishment of the implementation bodies, the North-South Ministerial Council, the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. In March-April, the Governments exchange letters notifying each other that all necessary arrangements are in place; the British-Irish Agreement enters into force; the North-South Ministerial Council, the implementation bodies, the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference are formally established and full powers are devolved to the Assembly; and the Government makes declaration and triggers amendment of Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution. In fairness to Deputy De Rossa, at this stage I regret that I cannot give a more definitive estimate for the likely date for the establishment of all the institutions, but I assure him that everything possible is being done to resolve the current impasse at the earliest possible moment.
I am interested in asking about the issue as opposed to the dates. Would the Minister agree that neither he nor I nor anybody in this House participating in Government would sit around the table with another party who had a private army and would he agree that we cannot ask others to do so? Is it not clearly implicit in the Good Friday Agreement, just as it was implicit that the commencement of prisoner releases would take place over the period concerned or that the human rights framework would be put in place, that the decommissioning process must be started – nobody is asking for it to be completed – before Sinn Féin takes its places in the Executive? Would the Minister agree that the best service we, in this House, can do is to stop fudging this issue and make it clear? We know it is a difficult issue for the republican movement and for some loyalists but, difficult as it may be, we cannot fudge it. There must be some commencement to decommissioning so that they show their bona fides and the Executive can be set up. Is that not the situation?
Before the Minister answers, we will take a final supplementary question from Deputy De Rossa because we have almost completed the time for Priority Questions and we are still on the first two.
Will the Minister answer the questions I asked? I appreciate the information he has put on the record but it is not a response to the questions I asked. Is the Government seeking a statement from the IRA, through Sinn Féin or otherwise, that they are prepared to decommission? Such a statement would be a reversal of statements made on three occasions that they do not intend ever to decommission. Would such a statement be sufficient to allow Sinn Féin representatives to become members of the Executive? Is that the minimum required and are there other stages in the process which must be gone through? The Minister may say he is not in a position to answer my second question, in which case he will not be prepared to go as far as the Taoiseach did in his article in The Sunday Times. Is it the Government's position that the Executive may not be formed unless Sinn Féin is part of it and that Sinn Féin may not be part of it unless there is decommissioning?
There is no intended fudge. The Taoiseach dealt with this matter yesterday in considerable detail. There is no point in dealing with it again unless the Deputies insist on doing so. I would have no difficulty in that regard. The Taoiseach and I have always said that decommissioning must happen. There can be no place for weapons in a democratic and peaceful Ireland. That is the principle the Taoiseach was reflecting in his interview in The Sunday Times. We all stand by that principle. The issue is now one of timing and interpretation, of how we go from the present to a point where all guns and Semtex have gone and of what must happen as we proceed along that route. The Agreement gives the key role in that regard to the estimable General John de Chastelain.
I make two final points. I agree totally with Séamus Mallon that only an inclusive solution will work. I heard him on the radio recently set out very clearly what was required, in his usual articulate and excellent manner. Second, it is only through the Agreement and its implementation that decommissioning will happen. It will not occur otherwise. It simply cannot occur otherwise.
Deputy Gay Mitchell asked if the Minister or the Government would sit down with Sinn Féin in government here without decommissioning. That is a reasonable and appropriate question. However, it is a completely hypothetical question. It is the people who decide the composition of governments. I would, of course, only serve in government with those who are committed to peaceful and democratic means. In case of any doubt, I emphasise that Sinn Féin, under the leadership of Mr. Adams and Mr. McGuinness, has made a critical contribution to the search for peace and is committed to the full implementation of all the terms of the Agreement, including decommissioning.
We must all be careful not to complicate further a very delicate issue at an extremely delicate time in the negotiations. In fairness, Deputy Gay Mitchell and Deputy De Rossa recognise that and I am appreciative. The task of the Government, the British Government and the leaders of all the political parties in Northern Ireland is not easy. The accommodation needed will be difficult all round. However, we must find an outcome with which everyone can live.
I protest. The Minister has not answered my questions although I asked them on three occasions. If that is not fudge I do not know what a fudge is.
We have spent 25 minutes on this question. Deputy De Rossa, you are out of order.
It is very hurtful of the Deputy to make that point. Since becoming a Minister, I have done the very best I can for the Members of this House. I find Deputy De Rossa's remarks very difficult to take.
I find it difficult to take the Minister's false expression of hurt. He has failed to answer the questions.
If I say nothing I am accused of being false. If I answer I am accused of fudging.
The Chair is on its feet. Deputy De Rossa, you must resume your seat. We will not have a debate on this issue.
Why is the Minister unwilling to confirm the Taoiseach's position?
I have confirmed it.
The Minister has not confirmed what the Taoiseach said.
I beg the Deputy's pardon.
As we are out of priority question time, Question No. 8 goes by default. We proceed to Question No. 9 in the name of Deputy De Rossa.
Can you clarify, Sir, that Question No. 8, even though it is a priority question, cannot be taken?
We have gone back to the old system for priority questions, pending a new order in the House. When the 20 minutes allotted for priority questions have passed we proceed to ordinary questions. Only the last two questions can be taken in ordinary question time.
Where do I go from here, Sir?
The Minister could be on his way to a commission.
The question has been decommissioned.
I am delighted to see that Deputy De Rossa's humour has improved. I find this very difficult to handle.
Would the Minister like me to ask my question a fourth time?
I would rather he did not.