Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Mar 1999

Vol. 502 No. 2

Local Government (Planning and Development) Bill, 1998: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Fleming

The concept of this Bill is well thought out and is part of the Government's commitment to improving legislation in this area. The Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands will bring forward similar legislation which will dovetail with it to improve arrangements in this area.

Given there are two separate Government Departments involved – the Office of Public Works has a major role in the area as well – there must be proper co-ordination between the Departments and the Office of Public Works. There is a role for public bodies in relation to buildings in their ownership. Many of the buildings which will be protected by this legislation will be in the ownership of the State. I hope the same rigours and standards will be applied by local government and those drawing up the inventory. They should not discriminate between publicly and privately owned buildings.

Leinster House is a classic example which, I am sure, will be on the inventory. I want to be sure there are no exemptions for State bodies or the State itself. I was at a meeting of the House Services Committee recently at which there was a discussion about extending the canteen facilities and an architect of the Office of Public Works told us that Leinster House does not have a fire certificate. That alarmed us. There is an exemption from fire certificates for the State in matters like this. Similar matters should not arise in the new legislation. Every building should be treated on its merits and not on the basis of who owns it. There should not be a separate set of laws for public buildings. The fire officer of Dublin Corporation should inspect this building. It is not satisfactory that the Office of Public Works should say the building is in order with respect to fire regulations. Independent verification is required and the same independence should apply when we are drawing up the national inventory of architectural heritage and buildings.

There will be transitional procedures for this legislation. Every building currently included as a listed building in county development plans will be included as a protected building. Will there be any independent appeals mechanism? If it is proposed to include a building and the owner contests it, his views can be sought and members of the local authority will ultimately make the decision. I would like some independent mechanism of arbitration on these matters. I would also like to see proper procedures outlined by the Minister at the appropriate time, in consultation with the local authorities and the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera, to ensure there is an open and transparent method by which the authorised officers will decide what is included on the protected list. It is not good enough for planning or heritage officers to take a drive, look up at a building and say it looks lovely so it should be included on the list. There must be more detailed examination of each building; it is not enough to take a cursory glance.

This legislation highlights the area of planning permission. I said earlier I was concerned about a local authority taking an action against an owner or an occupier of a house.

Mr. Perry

I wish to share my time with Deputy Finucane.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Perry

It is important that the Local Government (Planning and Development) Bill and the Architectural Heritage (National Inventory) and Historic Monuments (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, introduced by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, are considered together. I welcome the introduction of new laws for listed buildings. It is important that where a planning authority orders work to be undertaken on a protected building, it will have to pay for the work if offending alterations were not authorised.

Under this Bill, all listed buildings will in future be known as protected buildings. The inside structure will now be protected. It is hard to control this unless the interior of a listed building is properly recorded prior to works being carried out. While the facade may remain the same, considerable changes can be made inside. Planning authorities are to be given powers to ensure heritage buildings are protected and they will be entitled to order works to be done to preserve or restore them. This is important. The Government is to introduce a new grant scheme for protected buildings at a cost of £3.9 million, which will be administered by local authorities. How will this fund be dispersed per county? A further £300,000 has been made available to deploy conservation expertise within local authorities. How many conservationists will this include?

Buildings may be added to the record of protected structures at any time, independently of the statutory five year development plan. All planning authorities are obliged to record buildings to be protected because of their architectural, historical, archaeological, artistic, scientific, social or technical interest. This is important. I am dismayed that a spokesman for An Taisce said that while this legislation is an improvement, it falls far short of what is required. It is certainly well overdue. He also said there is a need for an outside body of conservation experts to supplement the activities of local authorities, which he claimed were not meeting their responsibilities as regards the conservation of our heritage.

I welcome this new era of protecting our heritage. Our record in protecting our official heritage has left much to be desired. However, the new regime which will come into operation under this new legislation will work well if supervised by local authorities working with the Department of the Environment and Local Government and the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. This is a huge area which should be looked at.

Section 3 provides that the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands may, after consulting the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, issue guidelines to planning authorities to assist them in carrying out their functions under this Bill in protecting buildings and townscapes. The guidelines will ensure that a consistent approach to protecting heritage buildings is adopted nationwide. It is important that this is focused on.

Section 4 provides that, in addition to these guidelines, the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands may recommend the inclusion of buildings in the record of protected structures. This will be based on the information in the national inventory of archaeological heritage. While I welcome this legislation, tougher laws are needed. The difficulty will be in its implementation.

Section 5 provides that a planning authority may add a building to the record of protected structures where it considers such a building war rants it or it may delete from the record a structure where protection is no longer warranted. A deletion of or addition to the record of protected structures may be carried out when reviewing the development plan as part of the statutory five year review or in accordance with the provisions laid down in section 6.

All these sections are important. A sum of £300,000 has been allocated for the employment of conservationists for the remainder of this year. However, these people will have a huge workload. Unfortunately, in the past, some of our great buildings have been destroyed.

Section 8 provides that planning permission will be required for any works which affect the character of a protected structure. This is welcome. As protection will now extend to the interior of structures, permission may be required for interior decorating, such as plastering. Owners or occupiers may request the local authority to indicate the works it intends to carry out in a declaration. This will be time consuming.

The new planning Act, the purpose of which is to allow for the increase in membership of An Bord Pleanála amends the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1983. This is necessary to allow the board to cope with the large increase in planning appeals in the past two years. The new Act also allows for the identification of actions taken by staff and members of the board in the performance of their duties.

Section 38 provides for transitional arrangements for buildings currently listed for protection or preservation under a development plan. These will automatically become protected buildings under the Bill. Owners and occupiers of these buildings will be consulted and entitled to make representations to the planning authority on whether their building should remain a protected structure. A huge amount of work will have to be done by planning officers to deal with compliance with these regulations. Local authorities are overworked because of the huge level of applications being made at the moment and staff have not been allocated to deal with this.

As regards the £3.9 million which has been allocated towards the conservation of buildings, how much will be given per county on the basis of buildings in each county? The cost of detailed applications will be higher because people will be complying with conservation orders. Will part of the £3.9 million be made available as a grant to help people restore buildings which are a national treasure? While people will want to follow the guidelines, it is important that a grant be given as an incentive to help people comply with the regulations.

This Bill must be welcomed; it is very much overdue. The overhaul of planning guidelines, which the Minister will bring forward in the coming months, and intensification which will allow people build on confined sites are welcome.

I welcome the fact that the Government is looking at our architectural heritage before the millennium. I am critical of some aspects of the Bill, but I welcome its thrust. A fund should be available to maintain our rich heritage.

Mr. Finucane

I welcome the Bill. Its introduction is timely, as those of us who are county councillors are discussing draft development plans. Planning is very much the centre of attention, and those involved in planning are often criticised. The Celtic tiger has spawned a huge expansion in building, and a parallel development is the dramatic increase in workload for the planning departments of local authorities. They do excellent work often in pressurised circumstances. As public representatives, we often find ourselves in conflict with them because we view planning decisions in a media context, while they must show vision and consider the future regarding the development. We are all aware of the types of difficulties that can exist at local level, particularly with regard to septic tanks and other issues. We are moving in a different direction with this Bill, however, and that is timely as local authorities are compiling dossiers of buildings that need conservation. Those lists are being discussed with councillors, and in my county I have seen a voluminous document produced which outlines the types of properties which need to be preserved.

We lost some fine buildings at the time of the Land Commission and the distribution of estates, for example. It is unfortunate that many historic buildings were destroyed in a mood of petulance at the time. We have probably learned to regret that, and we need to preserve what is left. That is why this Bill is so important; it dwells on the conservation aspect, which is vital.

Many people in rural areas will say conservation can be costly, and that is reflected in the Bill. If a person lives in an old building according to contemporary design, there is often an associated cost in preserving its integrity. The Bill states that several million pounds will be allocated to local authorities, giving a financial injection to preservation efforts. I know of cases where the facade of buildings has deteriorated aesthetically, and the local authority tells the owner not to change the design or structure. The people involved will then automatically claim they are being pressurised into retaining the structure as it is, even though it is deteriorating and they do not have the finance to carry out the necessary works. It is important that a financial mechanism is in place for a building recognised as being worthy of preservation. It is in the long-term interests of the person concerned and the community to preserve these buildings.

There is a great emphasis on thatched houses in my area, and it is amazing how they have come back into vogue. The work of the thatcher has returned, and there are incentives for thatching houses. Adare is a classic example of thatched premises being preserved.

Debate adjourned.