Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Apr 1999

Vol. 503 No. 5

Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands (Éamon Ó Cuív)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, signed by Ireland on 1st February, 1995, a copy of which was laid before Dáil Éireann on 23rd March, 1999.

The Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities is part of the Government's commitments under the Good Friday Agreement and our effort to advance the cause of peace on this island through the provision of a comprehensive framework of human rights protection. It is another step towards peace and accommodation between all the people of this island.

The framework convention originated with the Council of Europe's Summit of Heads of State and Government in Vienna in 1993, where it was resolved that a framework convention should be drawn up to specify principles for the protection of national minorities. The draft framework convention was opened for signature on 1 February 1995 and Ireland was among 21 Council of Europe member states who signed the instrument on that occasion. On ratifying the document, Ireland will be the 24th member state to do so.

This framework convention sets out a comprehensive set of principles regarding the protection of national minorities, elaborating the obligations which states undertake in ratifying the convention. States which accede to the convention are obliged to ensure equality before the law and equal protection for all their peoples. Religious tolerance, the right to assembly and the right to the use of minority languages are all specific commitments within this document.

In addition to making these commitments on paper, states which accede to this framework convention are subject to monitoring by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe. Within 12 months of ratification, Ireland will submit a report to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe regarding the situation in this jurisdiction. We would expect to furnish our initial report by May 2000, with further periodic reports submitted every five years thereafter. These reports will be subject to scrutiny by an advisory committee of the council, consisting of between 12 and 18 independent experts, who will make recommendations to the Committee of Ministers as to the effectiveness of our efforts to implement the convention. This committee will be free to draw its information from a wide range of sources and it has already been indicated that information provided by non-governmental organisations could play an important role in its work. We look forward to working with the committee to ensure that Ireland meets the highest possible standard of human rights in this regard.

The framework convention does not define a "national minority". This was a deliberate decision. By not providing a definition, the drafters of the framework convention recognised that each situation and state is unique, but that we share a common underlying goal, the protection and promotion by states of the legitimate rights and interests of their national minorities.

Given that all the situations and states are unique, it is not necessarily appropriate that an individual state should have the responsibility for identifying or labelling any particular national minority as being such, rather, the question of national minorities must be considered in the context of clearly applied external criteria. These must take into account not only the opinion of states but, in particular, the views of such communities and the right of individuals to choose whether to be treated as members of a national minority.

In part for this reason, the Government has decided not to make a declaration as to which, if any, groups are considered national minorities. Legally, it is considered that no national minorities within the context of the framework convention exist in Ireland. That is not to say that Ireland does not have minority ethnic or similar groups, or that such groups or communities may not emerge in the future. In any event, the Government considers that existing legislative measures meet the requirements for the implementation of the framework convention.

In the larger European context, this framework convention points the way towards an accommodation between the various peoples of Europe. It is the first legally binding multilateral instrument concerned with the protection of national minorities in general. Its aim is to protect the existence of national minorities by creating conditions which will enable them to preserve and develop their culture and to retain their identity. Oppression of language, culture and of religion has proved time and again to be a cancer which destroys societies and causes conflict. Events unfolding in the Balkans underline just how important an issue this has become. Two world wars and many savage conflicts during this century have made evident the ways in which ethnic conflicts deeply affect international politics. Third party countries become involved in such conflicts, particularly when their co-religionists of other groups with which they identify are involved. Conflicts spill across frontiers and refugee flows affect other countries in serious ways.

As we have witnessed all too often in recent years, many of the causes of inter-ethnic conflict have their roots in policies and practices directed by a particular ethnic majority against a minority. The protection and promotion of minority rights is, therefore, a key component in ensuring that ethnic tensions do not result in violence as well as an essential key to finding long-term solutions in situations where conflict has already occurred. Safeguarding the rights of national minorities has, therefore, long been seen by the international community as being of vital importance to stability, democratic security and peace in the world.

The Council of Europe Framework Convention on National Minorities is part of a developing body of international legal instruments concerned with these matters. They include the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the European Convention for Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Copenhagen Document of the OSCE. Ireland plays an active role internationally in ensuring that these standards are applied and, in ratifying the framework convention, we are taking a further step in underpinning the rights of groups and individuals. The Government is actively pursuing the ratification of all the core international human rights instruments and will shortly bring forward regulations which will enable us to move to ratify the UN Conventions on Torture and All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

It is important that Ireland should choose the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the Council of Europe to ratify this important instrument given that we have been intimately involved with the organisation since its foundation. On 5 May 1949 Ireland was among a group of ten states which put their names to the Treaty of London to establish the Council of Europe. The organisation has changed greatly in the intervening per iod. It now encompasses 41 member states and the importance of its work in human rights and democratisation has taken on renewed importance since the collapse of communism in Europe.

The Council of Europe has taken in the former Eastern Europe, including the Russian Federation, and has developed a new model of partnership and co-operation in the greater European region. Now, half a century on from its foundation and during this anniversary, it is fitting that Ireland further demonstrates its belief in the Council of Europe and its standard setting work in human rights through the ratification of this important convention. In doing so we can add another piece to the jigsaw of reconciliation on our island while, at the same time, making an international declaration of our desire for accommodation and mutual respect between the different cultures and nationalities which share our Continent. It is also appropriate in this anniversary year that Ireland will take up the reins of leadership in the Council of Europe by assuming the chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers of the Council. From November 1999 until May 2000, it will be the responsibility of this State to direct the progress of the organisation's work.

Through agreements such as this convention, Ireland, in common with other member states of the Council of Europe, is engaged in an attempt to build an agreed framework for the future. The upheavals of European history have shown that the protection of national minorities is essential to stability, democratic security and peace in this Continent. A pluralist and genuinely democratic society should not only respect the ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious identity of each person belonging to a national minority, but also create the appropriate conditions to enable them to express, preserve and develop this identity. Through the creation of a climate of tolerance and dialogue, cultural diversity can be a source and factor not of division but of enrichment for each society. There are few guarantees in this world but at the very least agreements such as this convention can make a valuable contribution to ensuring a minimum level of human rights and of human dignity for all the peoples of Europe. At a time when the need for such measures could not be more apparent, this convention commends itself to the House. Leis sin ba mhaith liom a mholadh go nglacfar leis an rún seo. Creidim gur rud an-tábhachtach é.

Mr. Durkan

I welcome the ratification of this convention. It is timely that an instrument of this nature should come before the House at present. It serves to focus our attention on the need to recognise the position of minorities and to recognise that they are not entitled to rights as determined by majorities but entitled to rights as determined by all of the people. The same rights should apply to minorities and majorities. That is not to say that one or the other should be disad vantaged. It would be useful to ponder the effect of such thinking in the past in this country.

Perhaps legislation on incitement to hatred should go hand in hand with a procedure such as this because, nationally or internationally, incitement to hatred can be the first step towards discrimination against a minority. That has happened throughout the world. There is no reference to the other side of the coin – the promotion of intolerance by those with a specific interest. The two are closely related. If one looks at the Balkans, and it is useful that we should have this item before us, the protection of minorities and their interests is foremost in the minds of everyone looking at the news over the past weeks. We should ask what we have done and what we can do other than wring our hands. Usually the intolerance which has manifested itself in the hostilities in the Balkans does not start overnight, it festers for a long time.

I wonder if this procedure will address this issue in a dramatic way. It will focus people's attention when reports emanate from the relevant member state but will the minorities have the opportunity to make a realistic and worthwhile submission into the contents of such reports? Will the report be conducted by the Council of Europe or an independent group of inquirers who can then produce a report which will clearly address the issue and examine the plight of the minority from its point of view? There are plenty of minorities in this State. Our attitude to refugees could be examined, our ability to recognise that other human beings have rights which are equal to our own.

One must ask if this gesture, and it is a positive gesture, from the Council of Europe will have any impact on the hostilities in the Balkans. For years we watched minorities being treated in a deplorable fashion. I heard President Milosevic suggest this morning that the recent bombing was the only thing which caused the flight of the refugees. That is not true. The minorities were being treated in a deplorable fashion for years. No great importance is attached to that by the authorities in Kosovo.

Closer to home, it is appropriate that an issue of this nature should have emerged in respect of the Good Friday Agreement. That is useful. Unless, however, there is a degree of authenticity which will enable the reports to stand up to impartial scrutiny, bias in a report of this nature will completely undermine the worth of future reports.

It is a good idea to examine the effect of propaganda. In Rwanda the outbreak of hostilities was generated by a personality in a radio station who poured out bitterness and hatred for months, ultimately culminating in the slaughter of thousands of innocent people. I hope this proposal on the protection of national minorities will have some impact outside the Parliaments, that it will proceed along the route of tackling the prejudice and incitement to hatred which in turn lead to a serious diminution in the rights of minorities. I hope that the Council of Europe will initiate procedures which will be useful in that area.

Minorities everywhere have a right to be protected and they should not have to depend on the majority. Their rights should be encompassed in legislation and provided for in all events. That would be a positive step forward but I am concerned that if importance is not placed on legislation to ensure that incitement to hatred is not allowed to prevail, it will be more difficult to protect the interests of minorities. I am disappointed that the Minister of State did not make any reference to this important aspect. How often have we heard inflammatory statements made on our own island which resulted in loss of life because armchair generals gave their views in a way which militated against the rights of the individual, particularly where they concerned minorities?

I welcome the measure as proposed. The Council of Europe is being progressive in recognising this issue. The Good Friday Agreement correctly identified the need for the ratification of the proposal. I hope it will be of some benefit, particularly to legislators in their efforts to ensure that the rights and interests of minorities are protected.

Proinsias De Rossa

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús fáilte a chur roimh an Bille seo. Tá sé déanach ach ag an am céanna is ceart dúinn glacadh leis an mBille.

This needs to be welcomed, particularly as we first signed the convention in 1995 and as this is the 50th anniversary of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights which is referred to in the framework convention. We are doing this, however, in an extremely minimalist way. Point 5 of the briefing document I received from the Department of Foreign Affairs, dated 23 March 1999, states:

Prior to signature of the Framework Convention, the then Attorney General advised that he did not believe that any of the minorities which exist in Ireland could be regarded as a "national minority". Therefore, it is not considered that any specific legislative or other measures need to be taken to implement the provisions of the Convention in Ireland.

In other words, it is conceivable that somebody else could give a legal opinion that there is a national minority in Ireland, and we do not have the legislative framework to deal with it. We are putting a convention in place and we do not have any legislative framework to deal with it.

Let us assume, for instance, that the current numbers of refugees continue to come to Ireland and the Government decides it will be less restrictive in allowing them to remain here, or we introduce a migration policy which encourages large numbers of people of other nationalities to come here to live. We do not have the legislative framework to guarantee them the rights this convention is offering and which we are saying offers such rights to people. It is not clear from the conven tion whether refugees and asylum seekers are covered by the convention but it is clear that the way the Government is dealing with refugees and asylum seekers to Ireland is grossly inequitable and contrary to human dignity. It is not clear either whether travellers in Ireland, for instance, could be regarded as a national minority. Travellers claim a distinctive ethnicity but I do not know whether they can be defined as a national minority. I am not a lawyer. If this convention is to offer protection to minorities in Ireland, we need legislation to do so.

The statistics in relation to travellers is appalling. The travelling community generally continues to face hostility and prejudice here. Travellers die younger. Only 1 per cent of travellers are over the age of 65. By contrast, 11 per cent of the total population is in this age group. At the last census there were 147 travellers over the age of 64, with 414,000 of the rest of the population over 65. Many traveller families still do not have access to toilets or running water. The infant mortality rate for travellers is close to three times the level for the population generally.

I have a case on my books of a family living on the outskirts of Finglas which has been trying for two years to get a loan – not a grant – from Fingal County Council to buy a new caravan because of the dreadful state of the caravan in which they live. I had to use the Freedom of Information Act to get information from the council as to the basis on which they refused the loan. Eventually I received the information that the refusal was based on a report from a caravan company which the council had sent to assess the state of the caravan. The report stated that the caravan was uninhabitable yet the loan was refused.

It is not sufficient for us to pretend that we are dealing with human rights and giving people their dignity when there is this institutional form of discrimination against a section of our society. They are our people whether we like it or not. They are part of who we are. We need to be honest with ourselves when we ratify conventions of this kind. We need to take them seriously.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights contains an extraordinarily simple and straightforward definition of human rights. It states that they are those basic standards without which people cannot live in dignity. We cannot pretend we are a country which respects human rights while an identifiable section of our society has the highest mortality rates among infants, 65 year olds and older and no sanitary facilities. Education, which is provided through the goodness of many religious orders and some local authorities and health boards, is grossly inadequate. We need to get serious about this issue.

I presume religious minorities in general do not come under the definition of national minorities, although it could be argued that they should. We have seen, from the foundation of the State, the dramatic decline of the Protestant minority. The Jewish minority in the State has declined almost to the point of extinction. In order to survive, go to school or get married they must go to Britain and they remain abroad. There have been major campaigns in Northern Ireland against anti-Catholic discrimination, yet the Catholic population continues to grow. Part of the reason the Protestant minority in Ireland declined was because of the State's implementation of the dogmas of the majority Church. That is less the case today but it had a major impact on the Protestant population.

Petty instances of discrimination remain, even in this House. The House starts the business of the day with a prayer. I have no objection to that but the prayer is specifically Christian. In this convention we claim to be a pluralist society. The House represents that society, yet the prayer which begins the business of the House does not acknowledge that other members of this society belong to different religions. We do not recognise that in the simplest way possible – by changing the prayer which opens the business of the House. This may seem a minor matter but it reflects a mindset which needs to be addressed.

The convention does not seem to address the question of refugees. I would like to put on the record in the House the comments of refugees who have come to Ireland looking for safety and security. These accounts highlight the problems refugees face in Irish society. I do not suggest that every Irish person is racist – the vast majority are not. However, there is a view that all refugees and asylum seekers are illegal and, perhaps, criminals. This impression is due to the fact that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said that, in his view, 90 per cent of those who applied for asylum are not entitled to it, are illegal immigrants and, as a result, are in some way criminals.

The statements I will quote are contained in a document commissioned by the Pilgrim Foundation – a Roman Catholic group which is concerned at the position of refugees and asylum seekers. This group carried out a survey of attitudes called When I Was a Stranger – Racism and Exclusion in Ireland, A Christian Assessment of the Situation of Asylum Seekers and Refugees published in 1999. The survey concluded that, while most people had never met a refugee or asylum seeker, they are of the view that they are not entitled to be here.

A male Nigerian said:

How can I have any real hope of being allowed to stay? I do not know anyone whose application has been accepted. It is all rejection. I am an accountant. It is very difficult not to be able to work, to feed my wife and child. It is demeaning to receive money for which you did not work. If we are allowed to work we will not need welfare and we can pay taxes. The days are long and painful. People can check my records in Nigeria, see that I have worked but I cannot go back there.

A Somali male said:

I am a man of no education but I'm strong. I have two kids, they need to be able to stand behind me and say, "that is my father." I need to be able to work for them to say this. I need education but when I say this to the authorities they say first you need status. With no status I can't work and to work I need education. You tell no one where you are going or that you are going – I paid a Yemeni to leave Mombasa, I didn't know where I was going, he just told me somewhere safe, a good country.

A male Nigerian said:

Three policemen took me from a phone box and began to shout at me, "what are you doing in Ireland, who were you phoning." They made me dial the number again to verify what I told them. Then they searched me, taking my wallet and going through it. They said that they had the right to do what they were doing. I felt helpless and could do nothing. I couldn't even complain.

An African male said:

My brother was beaten up and had his head cut with a broken bottle. He couldn't take anymore of the assault so when he recovered he returned to Africa.

A Nigerian female said:

We can't work, study, do anything. One day when making a phone call I left my baby in the buggy. A couple was passing by and began shouting, "oh, look at the baby – who owns the baby monkey?" Years ago you (Irish) went to America when things were different here. You knew what it was like to be oppressed and to be in need. Now we come here to begin a new life and you stand back and fold your arms.

A Congolese male said:

I have been called a lot of names –"you black, get back where you belong." I was refused accommodation after being promised it on the phone. When I went to the house I was immediately told there was no room and the door was closed in my face.

A couple from Cameroon said:

We are in a really bad situation. We have professions but cannot study and cannot work and contribute to society.

A male from Angola said:

I thought Ireland was a good country to come to but now I know its not a good place, its very racist. I was on Fleet Street today and five people shouted, "nigger, go back to where you're from."

A Nigerian male said:

I was beaten up on the street and that doesn't make any sense. I was calling and call ing the guard. The guards took the two guys who did it and let them go. They did nothing and I had to present myself so many times and they said that was because I didn't have status and I was here only two months.

A Nigerian male said:

They do not read the cases person by person, they decide only on the basis of what they think themselves.

An Angolan woman said:

We know about Ireland's past and now we see so many Irish racist and hostile.

A Somali male said:

I know I have a very good case but I have learnt that it means nothing – we are totally at the mercy of the people handling the cases.

The report goes on in a similar manner. This is the hidden face of how we deal with refugees – we are denying them the right to work and the right to education. We are taking an inhuman approach to people who come here and see Ireland as a friendly place – Ireland of the welcomes. This country has suffered from oppression in the past and sent millions of its people to America and Britain who in turn suffered racism. The Government has a responsibility to lead and to make it clear that those who come here will be treated as decent human beings, not criminals.

Mr. Daly

As Chairman of the Irish parliamentary delegation to the Council of Europe I am glad to have this opportunity to speak on this important motion. I compliment the Minister of State on introducing the motion. I wish to underline its importance in dealing with the issues raised by Deputies and broader issues which concern the Council of Europe.

This motion is timely as the 50th anniversary of the Council of Europe occurs on 5 May. I wish to make a few comments on the Irish delegation. Since we last discussed these issues the untimely death of Pat Upton took place. He was a distinguished member of the delegation. On behalf of the members of the delegation I express our profound sympathy to his widow and family. Pat Upton made a significant contribution to the deliberations of the Council of Europe and was very involved in its committees. He is not only sadly missed in this House but also by many of his colleagues in the Council. We have also had the benefit of the diligent work of Deputies Aylward, Browne, Enright and Gregory and Senators Rory Kiely and Connor. I understand Deputy De Rossa is to replace the late Deputy Upton.

Invaluable work was done in the Council of Europe by the Irish parliamentary delegation. Although it receives very little publicity, its Members are very dedicated. The plenary session is due to take place next weekend and will involve a variety of committees dealing with many matters of importance to Ireland and to other member states.

It is important as we approach the presidency that we clearly identify our priorities for that period. We should also try to create a greater awareness of the Council's work which has generally been overshadowed by the work of the European Parliament and the European Commission. In an effort to create greater awareness of and familiarity with the Council and its work, it is proposed to bring four young people to the plenary session in Salzburg next week where they will take part in a youth assembly.

Young people have a great interest in this area. The numbers of young people who have been involved in humanitarian efforts in Kosovo and other places clearly indicates they are deeply conscious of the difficulties being experienced by minority groups in Europe. Young Irish people want to see Ireland, as a member of the Council of Europe and other international organisations, playing an increasingly central role in the provision of assistance to refugees and in the provision of additional finances to deal with international crises.

The culture and education committee of the Council of Europe adopted a resolution in 1998 to deal with problems in the Russian Federation in regard to the preservation of its people's languages and cultural identities at a time when the federation is undergoing an unprecedented economic crisis.

A total of 23 million people throughout the world speak Uralic languages; some 3.4 million of them live in the Russian Federation in sub-Arctic conditions and on subsistence levels of survival. Many of their ethnic cultures are currently threatened. In the Russian Federation, teaching is carried out in up to 75 national languages. In some cases, language teaching is purely oral and there are no written texts. There is a certain urgency about the situation owing to the prevailing economic climate. There is an acute shortage of teachers and school materials and even though there has been provision for the preservation of culture through education, the necessary financial resources are not available.

I have cited the example of the Russian Federation because the Minister of State referred to it in his speech. Italian minorities in Croatia are also being discriminated against; a treaty was drawn up between Italian and Croatian authorities to ensure the protection of Italian minorities in Croatia. These examples indicate the broad range of problems being experienced throughout the Council's area. Deputy De Rossa referred to some of the problems being experienced in Ireland but they fade in comparison to the enormous problems being faced in Europe today.

Since the bombing commenced on 24 March, Europe faces the real prospect of another world war. Some people feel that is inevitable and its possible consequences would shake the entire international community. Every effort must be made to avoid that. The Council of Europe, through its political affairs committee, has worked diligently for the past two years in a sub committee chaired by Mr. Andras Barsony of Hungary, to find a resolution to the Kosovo problem. At the end of the day, agreement must be reached through the UN, NATO or a combination of both as Mr. Milosevic's conduct cannot be tolerated. If agreement is not reached, we face the prospect of an escalation throughout the entire Balkan region and into Germany, Italy, Greece and Turkey. That would represent a real human catastrophe.

Motions such as the one tabled here today will help to create stability, underline and underpin democracy and provide security and above all a lasting peace in Europe. It represents a milestone in the protection of minorities and it is very fitting that it should be introduced on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of our membership of the Council of Europe.

Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands (

Éamon Ó Cuív): I thank Deputies Durkan, De Rossa and Daly for their contributions on this important motion. A number of issues were raised. First, I would point out that we have incitement to hatred legislation in this country. Deputy De Rossa referred to national minorities and how they might be defined. He referred in particular to travellers. We all recognise that difficulties are experienced in relation to travellers in Ireland and we must deal with those. We have existing and pending legislation on this matter. Whether travellers wish to be treated as a national minority or as an integrated group with special characteristics is something they must answer. The Equal Status Bill is to be reintroduced in this House in the near future.

As an Irish speaker, duine den dream a labhrann Gaeilge gach lá, an mionlach muid sa tír ná an cuid den phobal náisiúnta a labhrann Gaeilge muid? Déarfainn féin agus déarfadh an cuid is mó againn, go mór-mhór pobal na Gaeltachta gur chuid de ghnáth-phobal na hÉireann muid agus go bhfuil ár gceartanna mar Ghaeilgeoirí le cosaint.

Mar sin tá sé i gceist agamsa Bille Teanga a thógaint isteach chun a chinntiú go mbeidh a gceartanna le fáil ag lucht labhartha na Gaeilge taobh istigh den tír. Bhí an-áthas orm mar Aire Stáit a bheith páirteach sa chinneadh go dtabharfaí aitheantas don Ultais nó don Ollains sa tír seo agus go bhféachfaí chuige go gcuirfí airgead ar fáil chuige sin.

There are many complex issues involved. In a sense we are talking about a framework through which we are opening up to examination from outside. One of the real benefits of the convention is that there will be a mechanism for people from outside to come here and examine whether we are treating the disparate part of society, particularly other national minorities, fairly.

Proinsias De Rossa

Will the Minister accept a question?

Éamon Ó Cuív

No, I did not interrupt the Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no provision for a question and the Minister has intimated he wishes to continue.

Proinsias De Rossa

It is one thing to say—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy not to intervene when the Minister is speaking.

Proinsias De Rossa

We have already decided there are no national minorities.

Éamon Ó Cuív

Under the convention people from outside can come to Ireland to monitor the situation. If they find we have national minorities which we have not declared they will be able to make recommendations. This is the mechanism established under the convention. In addition to outside monitoring, the framework provides for the making of reports. Therefore, there is an external audit mechanism. If it is found that we are not complying with the convention people from outside the jurisdiction will be able to give an opinion on the matter. I think this is of considerable merit, particularly in light of the issues raised by Deputy De Rossa.

I thank those who contributed to the debate. Deputy Daly gave a very interesting exposition of the far greater problems in relation to minorities in other countries, and I thank him for his contribution.

Sílim gur fiú an díospóireacht agus ba mhaith liom an rún a mholadh.

Question put and agreed to.