Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Apr 1999

Vol. 503 No. 7

Local Elections (Disclosure of Donations and Expenditure) Bill, 1999 [ Seanad ] : Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Roche

There is a need to control expenditure in this and every other type of election. We all accept that. People with deep pockets are not necessarily automatically elected, either to local authorities or to Dáil Éireann. However, when people with deep pockets spend, they put pressure on other candidates. In fact, the downward spiral has become a reality in both local and national elections in recent years because some people have had more funding than electoral appeal. They tried to buy themselves into the Dáil and local authorities.

If it were practical I would strongly support a cap on all expenditure. As both the Minister and the Minister of State have said, the problem in local government elections is that it is difficult in practical terms to effectively put in place and police a system of local expenditure capping.

There are, however, alternative approaches to achieving the same objective. Certain types of expenditure are totally wasteful, cancel each other out and mean nothing other than transferring money from one pocket to another. What I have in mind is the extraordinary practice by candidates that has grown up in recent times, particularly in local elections, of buying expensive advertising space in newspapers. That is totally wasteful because when a newspaper's sales department gets a booking for a half page advertisement from one candidate, it rings every other candidate and pressure is applied. I cannot understand the logic of banning advertising from local radio and television yet still allowing it in the print media. In the interests of sanity as well as this mythical level playing pitch, we should ban it in all cases. If that was done, a significant amount of expenditure would be taken out of the equation.

Of all election expenditure, the large 8 x 4 ft. posters one sees in some places are the most wasteful. It is an absolute delusion that anybody votes a particular way because of such posters which I would seek to ban.

The dual mandate has raised its head on several occasions in the debate. I disagree fundamentally with the suggestion that we should abolish it. Anybody who makes such a suggestion clearly has not looked at some of the fairly rich literature that is available on how organisations should link different layers into each other. It is almost 20 years since the idea of communication having inter-links between different levels in an organisation was proposed, and it still makes eminent good sense.

The dual mandate is a powerful way of keeping national politicians in contact with what is happening on the ground. Local government and national politics will be diminished if the dual mandate is simply wiped out because of some ideological or dogmatic view. There is certainly an argument for debating how time is used. I am a member of Greystones Town Commissioners and I hope I will be after the 11 June elections. It is the humblest form of local authority. I happen to be one of the people responsible for the town commissioners being established. I am also a member of the county council. My time on both bodies is well spent in terms of the service I can give to my constituents.

Looking through the excellent book, Nealon's Guide to the 28th Dáil & Seanad: Election '97, I find that most politicians in the Oireachtas – not just in this generation but over the last few generations – have been trained and developed their political skills, such as they are, in local government. It would be a fundamental error to abolish the dual mandate.

I made it clear to the Minister that I will do everything in my power, both within my own parliamentary party and in the House, to prevent the abolition of what I regard as a valuable part of democracy. If people do not like a candidate, whether for the Dáil or Seanad elections, they have the right to make a decision. It is nothing short of extraordinary when one considers that a mass murderer who has served his or her time, or a fraudster of monumental proportions who has not been caught, can run for election to a local authority. In fact, anybody who is guilty of any capital offence and who has served their time – or, in fact, who may not even have served their time – can run for election under the current local government election rules. The only people who will be refused the right to put their names before the people are Members of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann. That says much about our image and how we view ourselves.

The dual mandate serves a considerable purpose. There is an interesting array of views on the issue in the House. Deputy Killeen made a very sensible contribution earlier and he spoke briefly about electronic voting. We operate proportional representation, particularly at local government level, in a very imperfect way. For example, at the last election to Greystones Town Commissioners, one candidate was elected by a portion of a vote. In several other local wards around County Wicklow people were elected by margins of one or two votes, after the imperfect system of transferring surpluses. I compliment the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials on the electronic voting experiment, to which I look forward. It will allow us to observe PR. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference between the declared result and the experimental one. If so, how will we deal with that? That issue aside, the use of PR is an extraordinarily subtle and well understood electoral system. The people have shown they have a particular affinity for it. Maybe that has something to do with our national character. It has stood the test of time since it was introduced in local government in 1919. I am putting a marker down, however, about the dual mandate.

Mr. Bradford

I wish to share my time with Deputy Deasy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Bradford

I listened with interest to Deputy Ring who made some pertinent comments about the role of councillors and council management. I listened with interest to Deputy Roche also and I was surprised to learn of his views on the dual mandate. The stories we are getting from that side of the House indicate that only Deputy Healy-Rae stood between local government reform and the present system.

Mr. Roche

The Deputy should not believe every rumour he hears.

Mr. Bradford

I am glad Deputy Roche and Deputy Healy-Rae will lead the campaign to keep councillors in the Dáil, and vice versa. Given our present electoral system, the dual mandate will not disappear. Whether we like it or not, when a voter has to vote from numbers one to ten when choosing preferences, national politicians will always like to keep their fingers in the local pie. We will not have any real, radical or true local government reform until we have electoral reform. We can debate until the cows come home what type of new electoral system to go for, but as long as we retain our multi seat proportional representation system, which has been in operation for the past 70 years, it will be impossible to reform local and national government.

Local government is hugely important to every citizen. There is a little cynicism from time to time about the role of the councillor, but on a daily basis local government members and man agement impact to a greater degree on ordinary people than we do. I am sure that on 11 June a sizable majority of people will exercise their right to vote at town commissioner, urban district council and county council levels. We are debating the expenditure provisions for these elections and the new controls the Minister is introducing.

It is difficult to defend a system which provides that a candidate can only expend a certain amount of money to be elected to the Dáil while there is no such limit at local authority level. Perhaps the Minister has an explanation, but at best that explanation will be only reasonably rational, as it is difficult to justify a limit for more expensive national election campaigns when there is no limit for local elections. I concur with those who have said that money will not elect a candidate, but if there are to be controls for Dáil elections it is quite bizarre that there are none at town commission, urban district council or county council election levels. I welcome the provision that ensures candidates must declare reasonably significant donations, and I have no difficulty with local election candidates having to provide lists of election expenditure. However, it is difficult to accept that while we are going that far we are not imposing a limit.

The debate about election costs is one reason people are unwilling to go forward for election. It is no secret that most political parties had some difficulty in getting new young candidates for the local elections. These elections should present huge opportunities to new candidates, but many areas no longer have a rush of people like those who came forward in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The National Youth Council survey published this week suggests there will be very few young people standing as candidates or voting. There seems to be very little interest among young people in the local elections, and that is very damaging to politics in the long-term. One can say that young people are not interested in politics but that as they grow older and take on responsibilities they take a greater interest in the affairs of the nation. However, there is more cynicism about politics than usual, and the lack of interest in politics among young people goes hand in hand with that. That does not augur well for the strengthening of democracy.

On the whole, councillors across the political divide have given this country great service. However, in our typically Irish way of doing business through the back door, we do not pay councillors salaries but try to reward them with expenses instead. Local authority members should be paid a fixed salary. We could debate the amount another time, but these people give a huge amount of time to their communities and parties. It is wrong that there is not a system to compensate them for the huge expenses they can incur. It does no good for the media to report how much councillors get in expenses or the number of councillors going to various conferences. We should have a proper, open system of funding councillors, as that might make the career of a councillor more attractive than it seems to be at present. Unless we get good people involved in local politics there will not be a natural flow into national politics.

The Minister has hinted for 12 to 18 months at bringing forward meaningful local government reform. However, as Deputy Roche said earlier, we call for strengthened powers of local government when in Opposition, but we lose that desire when in Government. Perhaps the centralised view of politics means that the Government wishes to keep all the power in Leinster House. There are huge opportunities for decentralising powers to local authorities, but we do not seem to have the political courage or will to decentralise because giving those authorities real powers and responsibilities means that councillors' workloads will be such that Oireachtas Members will not be able to serve at both levels. While we have the present electoral system, which puts such huge emphasis on constituency work and local politics rather than national issues, it will be difficult to effect the kind of changes that are desirable.

The proposals for electronic voting are welcome. There is a negative side to every innovation, and people may come to regret the passing of 24-hour counts, but electronic voting is a much better system mathematically. It is better that people know their fate within half an hour or an hour of the polls closing; the parties or wakes can then be held on the night of the election rather than the following day. It can be done with the local mayor or with the President in the United States, and I am sure we can do it. The proportional representation system obviously adds a confusing dimension, but I hope the tests carried out in this election show we can use this modern, worthwhile system.

I welcome the Bill, though I seriously question why we are not putting more limits in place. I look forward to a much broader debate on local government, and hope the Minister lives up to his hints. If we are to have real local government reform then Members must be more willing to lose powers and local seats than we have been heretofore.

Mr. Deasy

It is unfortunate that the Bill dealing with local authority reform about which the Minister has been speaking for some time, has not been introduced in time for the forthcoming elections. It would have given great impetus to a debate on such a Bill, and it seems highly imprudent to have legislation relating to these elections put off until the next session or until next year.

I do not criticise the present Minister any more than I criticised his predecessors. Unlike a previous speaker, I say the same in Government as in Opposition. I was very critical five years ago when our then Whip introduced a Bill on Dáil reform. We were promised all sorts of improvements at Question Time, in voting procedures and other issues. Nothing happened. The Minister also indicated his intention to carry out considerable reform in the Dáil and local authorities. As yet, we have not seen any. Local authorities celebrate their centenary this month and there is a need for considerable reform.

I asked a number of questions yesterday about certain aspects of local authority management. The Minister agreed that changes are needed because no change has been made in the management of local authorities for at least 70 years. It is disheartening for public representatives to have to work in an outdated system. In any walk of life, it is necessary to keep up with the times, but I see no effort being made to do this in the management of local government where there is great resistance to change.

Power should be given back to the elected representatives of the people. I have been a member of local authorities for 32 years and I have a fair knowledge of the workings of county and urban councils and of the Oireachtas. When I see how power is concentrated in the hands of a few people who are not elected by anyone, I wonder if we politicians have any courage or initiative. The freedom for which an earlier generation fought so hard has been handed to people who appear to have to answer to no one.

The County Management Act, 1942, gives a disproportionate amount of power to approximately 30 people – county and city managers – who are not elected. I have never seen one of them dismissed. Public representatives must stand for election and we can be dismissed from office by our electorate, but county and city managers are a law unto themselves. Recent revelations made in a building in another part of the city show one of the 30 people of whom I speak to have been involved in considerable fraud of just the sort referred to in the Bill.

The Bill is designed to ensure candidates do not receive large sums of money to spend on election campaigns and that those who make such donations do not later demand repayment in the form of political favours. It is a small attempt to prevent corruption at local authority level, but what is to prevent the corruption of people who are in charge of the allocation of jobs, houses and the granting of planning permission? Planning is an important and vexed issue and one where there is much scope for abuse. What strictures have we over the people to whom I have referred? Have we introduced legislation to clip their wings or curtail their activities? Can anyone tell me that only one of the 30 is corrupt? Is it not possible that a large number of people in middle management in our local authorities might need to be scrutinised closely? What are we doing to scrutinise the people who have the real power?

My experience in Government has taught me that Cabinets have a certain degree of power. A strong and ruthless Taoiseach may have absolute power. Some Cabinets may contain two or three strong members. A strong Minister for Finance may have one or two cronies to whom he allocates money; a Minister for the Environment and Local Government may be lucky enough to be one of them. Real power is confined to a very few people. This Bill is what Vincent Browne might call a tremor in a teacup. Its effect will be very slight because we are not dealing with the kernel of the issue. Some of the people involved have friends in high places or who are in trouble and they like to diminish the gravity of the situation.

Public representatives, in the Oireachtas or in local government, do not have power. There is no point in introducing legislation which does not relate to the people who have real power. There may have been abuses of the planning system by public representatives in Dublin, but such abuse did not occur widely, if at all, throughout the rest of the country. What occurred in Dublin amounted to corruption or criminal activity. The tribunals will determine the extent of it and bring those responsible to justice.

Who is running our local authorities and why do public representatives not have more say in what is going on? To take power into their own hands, elected representatives are obliged to bring in section 4 motions – a difficult and cumbersome procedure and one which councillors do not like because it can lead to abuse.

We must change our system of public accountability. We might follow the American system under which elected office holders have real power and responsibility. We are elected, but we do not have responsibility. In a democratic system, the majority should rule and those who are elected should have the power to decide what should be done and do it. We do not have such a system. My recommendations should also apply to all local authority subsidiary bodies, including health boards and vocational education committees.

Multi-seat constituencies – for Dáil Éireann and local authorities – should be abolished. Single seat constituencies – whether with the straight or single transferable vote – would put an end to bickering within parties. Candidates have gone to extraordinary lengths to denigrate their running mates – one even with a car. Much political energy and talent is wasted in competing with party colleagues. We have all experienced this phenomenon and I am glad I overcame it and will not experience it again. It does not serve the country well. The people should have the system, whether it be national or local, to which they are entitled.

Ms Hanafin

I wish to share time with Deputy Kelleher.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ms Hanafin

Ar dtús ba mhaith liom díriú ar chomóradh chéad bhliain an chéad Chomhairle. Tharla an chéad chruinniú an mhí seo i 1899. Nuair a smaoinítear ar cén fáth ar tógadh isteach na comhairlí sin agus ar an bpolasaí a bhí ag na Coimeadaigh i Sasana ag an am agus ar an dul chun cinn sa chéad bhliain atá imithe thart ó shin is féidir linn a rá go bhfuil an daonlathas tógtha chun cinn againn sa tír seo. Tá ár mbuíochas tuillte ag na Comhairlí Chontae go bhfuil an córas sin ann le céad bliain anuas.

When the Conservative Party in England introduced the Local Government Bill in 1898, leading to the first meeting of the councils in 1899, it was not out of the goodness of its heart but part of a policy to kill Home Rule with kindness. The first part of the policy worked in so far as local government was successful but the second did not. All it did, in trying to solve the land question, was encourage the Irish people to continue the fight for full democracy and full representation in their own parliament. A number of the leading Members of the first Dáil had been members of local councils. W. T. Cosgrave who went on to become Taoiseach had been an active member of Dublin Corporation. It marked the beginning of democracy in a real sense. People were challenged to give a lifelong commitment – always unpaid – to serve their local community.

The sense of excitement evident 100 years ago has been replaced by cynicism, criticism and opposition. For the first time in eight years we are facing local elections in which no one under the age of 26 has voted. They probably do not know what role local authorities play. Candidates will have to prove that they are of high standard, most sincere and of great integrity. This will make it difficult to encourage people to enter politics. It should be made easier, not more difficult. In recent times rumours, innuendo, scandals and accusations have led people to decide that politics is not the most honourable of professions.

The Bill is a logical extension of the legislation that refers to the Dáil. That legislation is practically inoperable and in the next election will interfere with voluntary activity in campaigns where the amounts spent will have to be disclosed. It insists on disclosure of amounts received by a candidate over £500. Although welcome and justified, it amounts to an invasion of privacy where a candidate has to declare that their husband or wife has made a donation.

While this Bill insists on disclosure, it does not limit expenditure. I understand the reasons for this and that we are talking about thousands, not hundreds, of candidates in constituencies of different size. Does it mean, however, that expenditure will be outlandish? I have seen election brochures that resemble Hello magazine rather than the typical election leaflet. Will the focus be on razzmatazz with cars and vans emblazoned in full colour rather than on the real issues? I hope the information supplied by candidates after the elections will be used well to ascertain how much was spent and whether it was used to the benefit of the political and electoral system.

Section 6, which deals with election expenses, requires candidates to list the moneys spent in opposing, directly or indirectly, the interests of a political party or candidate. While one comes across instances of negative canvassing, one does not often come across instances of negative advertising. It is never blatant. The message is often subliminal –"I am young, new and honest"; the implication being that everybody else on the ticket is old and dishonest and perhaps should be shafted.

I question the use of the perfect family photograph of the candidate, his wife and beautiful children. Is this to promote the candidate or to draw attention to another candidate who may not be in the same situation? In looking at ethics it might be more appropriate to examine the type of message sent rather than the cost.

The Bill states that the cost of an opinion poll taken within 60 days of an election must be noted. Opinion polls should not be allowed within 60 days of an election. While they may be of interest to candidates, they are not beneficial to the public.

If somebody writes good things about a candidate in a newspaper or magazine, they will not be allowed to put a cost on it. What about negative reporting where a journalist decides to put a twist on a candidate's candidacy?

The Bill states that if a candidate recycles posters used in a previous election, they do not have to be declared a second time. This is an environmentally-friendly measure and gives ample opportunity to reuse old posters, particularly those used in the Presidential campaign which are lying in garages throughout the country.

The serious penalties for non-disclosure will make the Bill effective. An unsuccessful candidate who fails to make a disclosure within 56 days of an election will be disqualified from membership in the event of a vacancy arising. Successful candidates may be suspended or disqualified.

Members of local authorities must declare their interests and property. This is necessary. The same should apply to officials. They should have to adhere to a strong ethical code. Each candidate, each political party and each authority should adopt their own code of ethics to show that we are people of integrity.

On this occasion the chairpersons of Oireachtas committees will be allowed to stand for election. Section 24 provides for this. Like all Oireachtas Members, they will be disbarred, however, from taking on the role of chairperson, mayor or lord mayor. Given that the dual mandate is being removed for the next election, it is unfortunate that they will not be allowed to hold each position.

Unlike many of my colleagues, I welcome the end of the dual mandate. I believe, as an elected representative in Dáil Éireann, our primary duty is to be national legislators. It is then our responsibility, each of us individually, to keep in touch with our constituents on a regular basis working for them on all the local issues. That does not mean we need to be members of councils to do so. We need to broaden the basis of representation at local level so that we have a full bank of TDs, Senators and councillors working for the interests of our constituents at all levels.

The one thing I am nervous about in section 25 on recording and counting of electronic voting is that there might be job losses among our expert tallymen, all of whom work voluntarily. That is part of the system in Irish politics and the tallymen are part of our culture. I would hate to see them being removed from office, as it were, because electronic voting has taken over. I recognise, it would be in everyone's interest to have the result more quickly. This Bill is a necessary step forward and because of ethics and standards. I regret it has been necessary to introduce it, but recognise it is needed. Mar sin fáiltím roimh an mBille.

Mr. Kelleher

I thank Deputy Hanafin for sharing her time. The reason I welcome the Bill is that it gives me an opportunity to speak on local government reform in particular. I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government and a report on local government reform has been submitted by members of the committee. It is an area which has been neglected over the years, and that has been alluded to by Members on both sides of the House. Centralised government and placing the power structures in the hands of a few individuals should be discouraged at all times.

If we are serious about bringing democracy to the people and vice versa, a complete overhaul of the present structures of local government is essential. Deputy Deasy alluded to the 1944 managerial Act. I am very concerned that the running of counties and cities is in the hands of a few people who are not answerable on a regular basis to the public or to public representatives who have been elected to that body. People will argue that county councillors, corporation members and urban and town commissioners have a role to play and that they can implement policy. However, when one analyses local government, one will realise it is the county manager and a few officials in higher managerial sections who run local authorities. That is completely unacceptable and negates the essence of democracy. If we are serious about local government reform, we must challenge that and take the power from those who are unelected and hand it back to those who are.

Despite all its ills, America has one great strength in that it prides itself on democracy. At every level, even at community council level, those who are elected make the decisions, handle the money and are accountable to the people at the next election. It is time we looked at that issue as we face the next millennium and after 100 years of local government. Local government has served this country well since its inception, but there is much room for improvement.

We have a duty as public representatives at national and local levels to ensure politics is promoted in all sectors of society and that those who hold public office are people of integrity and honesty. The reason this Bill is before the House is that people are concerned at the way politicians are pursuing their careers and at how they fund their campaigns and the fact they may be compromised at some point in the future by a donation from an individual. The majority of people who stand for public office, from the town commission to Dáil Éireann, have a genuine sense of public duty. They are there to serve the people in their community.

We are bringing forward this legislation for all the wrong reasons, that is, the negative vibes in society. Representatives in this House have a strong duty, as do reporters. Journalists must report in a fair manner and not in the sensational way which has become evident in Irish reportage. I am concerned that is sending all the wrong signals.

If we look at the turnout for local and general elections, statistics would suggest it is slipping. We must ask why people are not as interested in politics now as they were at the start of the century. One could argue they were refused the right to vote for so long but I believe there is a deeper problem which must be tackled. Young people, in particular, are not interested in exercising their franchise. It is an issue at which we must look seriously in view of the demographic trends in our society. We have a large young population so a huge section of our community will be unrepresented at local authority level on 11 June if they do not vote.

I would defend the right of a person to decide not to vote as much as I would the right to vote. However, people should be encouraged to exercise their right so that those who are elected can identify the issues and come to grips with what people are thinking. If only 50 per cent cast their vote, we face a huge problem which we must seriously address. We talk about the problems with the register of electors but they are administrative. There is a deep and underlying trend which will continue unless politicians at all levels stand up and have the honesty to say they can or cannot do something or that they have or do not have the power to do something. The reason people are not voting is that they look at politicians and say they cannot make an impact. That is something about which we must be very concerned.

At a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation, some Members of the Houses wanted the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation to set up an independent review group to decide on grant applications. I know as much about my constituency as any expert advisory group. I believe I am entitled to advise the Minister on deserving and worthy cases because I was elected by the people of Cork North-Central. My colleagues in the constituency could do likewise.

We are beginning to row back and hand powers to quangos. Every country which moved in that direction is now rowing back. We need look only at Britain which had quangos for everything. It realised its folly and is handing the power back to the people, something which will continue. We have a long way to go and we must act soon before local government and national government represent only a small proportion of the people.

On the dual mandate, I am not a member of a local authority but intend to stand for election. I will defend the dual mandate as long as we have the present electoral system of multi-seat constituencies and more than one party colleague within a constituency. It is an issue at which we will have to look. If we are serious about giving more time to national issues and devolving powers back to local authorities, we will have to look at how we elect the national Parliament as well. We will have to look at the single transferable vote, proportional representation and single seat constituencies. That would allow TDs elected in such constituencies to concentrate solely on national issues and would give them the time and space to deal with constituents' problems without having to look over their shoulders to see if a colleague attended the same funeral they attended.

I welcome the Bill and hope it will discourage some people and encourage others to become involved in politics and make them realise that most people involved in this noble profession are honest, decent and hardworking. I will defend politicians everywhere I go.

Mr. Sheehan

I wish to share time with Deputy Stanton.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Sheehan

As a member of a local authority for the past 32 years and a Member of this House for the past 18 years, I know only too well that local government and national Government go hand in hand. This year marks the centenary of local government in Ireland. I dislike the trend displayed over generations to whittle away the powers of democratically elected representatives of local councils. Local government powers should be established through local government structures. It is a sad day for this country when the powers of local government are being fettered and local government is being turned into a mere talking shop.

Local government was established 100 years ago to build up this country and I cannot understand why more powers cannot be devolved to it. I served on a local authority agriculture committee which had the power to appoint temporary agricultural instructors and home economics advisers throughout the county. I saw the powers of such committees being eroded to the point where appointments could only be made by the Department of Agriculture.

As a person who has held a dual mandate for the past 18 years, in this House and on Cork County Council, and as the longest serving member of that council, I am well aware of the value of local government representatives being elected to the national Parliament and of TDs holding positions on local authorities. I do not want to see the powers of local councillors being completely eroded and Members of this House not having an opportunity to express their views in local councils. I do not believe it places an additional burden on a Member of this House to hold a dual mandate. However, I see difficulties arising where Oireachtas Members hold other positions outside politics. They find it very difficult to compete with those Members for whom public representation is their only way of life.

A public representative is a public representative, whether a Member of this House or of Cork, Donegal or Kilkenny county councils. The only people clamouring for change at present are the well-heeled and articulate who hold jobs and have incomes outside politics. They come in here very occasionally to address the House and then go to their respective jobs in the city and elsewhere. I do not want that to happen with local government. The Minister of State had the privilege of serving on a local corporation with distinction while he was a Member of this House. His record in Cork Corporation and in this House is unblemished. I want to kill the myth that there is no room for national political representatives to be elected to local councils. There is a danger that local government will fall into an abyss and that people who are democratically elected will have no effective powers.

The Bill is a timely one. There was not much sense in having disclosure of general election expenditure if similar disclosures were not put in place for local government elections. The Minister of State outlined some reasonable suggestions in this regard. There are moves afoot to confer the title of mayor on urban council chairpersons. Chairpersons of county councils should also be known as mayors. That is a reasonable request.

County managers hold the real power in local government. More powers must be devolved to democratically elected county councillors throughout the country. They are the hallmark of success as far as democracy is concerned. Democracy was introduced for the first time in this country 100 years ago when people were allowed to elect their own representatives to county councils. National government was introduced some 20 years later. Local government is the forerunner of the democratic principles we have now enshrined in this House. Let us hope they will be preserved and nurtured as the years go by.

I am very dubious about the decision to disbar an Oireachtas representative from holding a dual mandate. That position must be changed. I see no reason Members of the Oireachtas who devote their time to fighting for their constituents' rights should be denied the right to become chairpersons of their respective county councils if their constituents elect them to such positions. I would not support placing an impediment in their way in any circumstances. I am delighted that when representations were made to the Minister by Deputy Healy-Rae, a renowned colleague of mine, the Minister quickly changed the rules concerning chairmen of Oireachtas committees who are now, rightly, entitled to run for local authority election. Chairmen should also be entitled to be elected to the chair of their respective councils if the members of the councils see fit to do so.

It is with a sense of pride and privilege that I have served my people in Cork South West for 32 years on Cork County Council, to which I am seeking re-election, and for 18 years in this House. It was no impediment for me to serve in both establishments and I look forward to the day when other people who listen to what I have said will think twice before removing the dual mandate from democratically elected representatives.

Mr. Stanton

I acknowledge the service of my colleague, Deputy Sheehan, the father of our party. I think I am the baby of the party so both extremes are represented in the debate.

We are known by our actions – words are not enough. After two years in office the Government has again missed the boat. The Minister made an order in December 1997 postponing the local elections until June 1999. We were promised comprehensive proposals for reform. These reforms should have been widely debated, passed into law and in force in time for the local elections in June. There was plenty of time to do this, but the Government failed and local government will be poorer as a result. It is a pity there has not been wide-ranging debate or reforms passed through legislation in the House in the lead up to the local elections. Introducing such reform would have made local government far more meaningful in the new millennium. The failure to do so shows the Government and the Fianna Fáil party places local government very low in importance in terms of their agenda. It is an insult to past and current local representatives that the Government decided not to debate the badly needed reforms properly and on time. The elections will take place in June and the subsequent elections will take place, I hope, five years afterwards. In the meantime legislation has been put on the long finger.

We have also been promised a referendum to give constitutional recognition to local government, which I believe will be held on the same day as the local and European elections. However, time is moving on and I understand the necessary legislation should be passed by the Dáil by 22 May. Perhaps I am incorrect in this, but I say it in the context of press releases issued by the Minister some time ago. If I am correct, then the legislation will have to be rushed through. A constitutional amendment is a most important event and should be preceded by widespread debate. People do not seem to be aware of what is happening in this regard and I ask the Minister to clarify the matter.

The Bill is another fudge. There is no provision in it for the disclosure of money given to election candidates, elected members or unelected officials at times other than at election time. Have we learned anything over the past 12 months? Surely we should have some provision in the legislation for disclosure of money received by a person in a brown paper bag, through e-commerce or in some other way. Why is such provision not included in the legislation given that Deputies must disclose such donations? Why is Fianna Fáil failing to close these loopholes? It is no wonder that there is apathy towards politics.

Donations of more than £500 must be disclosed. What happens in the case of a person who receives six or 60 donations of £500 from different people? There is not a limit in this regard, thereby creating another loophole. Also, a cap on spending is not provided. Why is no cap applied to local authority candidates given that a cap on expenditure applies to Deputies? A series of milk and water reasons have been given with reference to the scale and cost of policing such a provision. However, everybody would adhere to a cap on spending if provision for random checks was included in the legislation. I fear the Government may also lift the cap on expenditure in general elections. It is a tale of loopholes, indecision and failure. By not having a cap on spending candidates will be encouraged to compete with each other in terms of spending, with bigger and glossier posters, etc.

Chairpersons of Oireachtas committees are becoming increasingly important and relevant, perhaps even more relevant than this Chamber. We note that representatives of the media are not present for this debate, whereas there is nearly always a representative present in committees. Recently, a colleague said he spent hours debating a certain Bill, but that not one word appeared in the print or other media. Yet, if a Member of the Oireachtas from either side put one toe wrong, it would be written about in glorious multi-colour on the front page of the national newspapers. All the work, time and debate that takes place here gets very little coverage unless one says something totally outlandish or off the wall.

Chairpersons of Oireachtas committees receive a generous payment and are expected to lead a detailed and rather heavy work programme. However, the Minister is taking a step backwards in removing the disqualification of Chairs of Oireachtas committees from membership of local authorities. I disagree with my esteemed colleague in this regard.

Mr. Sheehan

The Deputy does not have the experience.

Mr. Stanton

Of course I do not, and I bow to Deputy Sheehan's wide experience.

Part of the reason is that local authority power rests with the management rather than the members. If members of local authorities had the powers and were accountable they would possibly chose to serve either in this House or on a local authority. However, members of local authorities do not have the power, although they get the blame when something goes wrong. Deputies are also called upon to provide answers by various interest groups and representative associations when something goes wrong at local authority level. It is very seldom that one sees the management of local authorities present in such circumstances. I am aware of this following the pylon issue in Cobh, something of which the Minister is also aware, when the politicians were called upon to debate the issue with the residents. We were all being blamed for what was proposed while we had no say in the matter. I commend the members of Cork County Council for taking the very unusual and drastic step of rescinding planning permission. People were saying there was no democracy and the situation was very serious. Let us hope the ESB takes account of the democratic wishes of the people and the members of the county council and forgets about the pylons.

The Minister has been forced to climb down on the issue of chairpersons of Oireachtas committees running for election to local authorities. He may even abandon his proposal to abolish the dual mandate. These matters are relevant to the powers of local authorities, an issue we cannot debate because proposals have not been placed before us.

We must acknowledge that local authorities have existed for 100 years. Instead of marking the occasion by broad debate, the Government has displayed grave indecision and delay and has only offered this meaningless Bill.

Local authorities are very important in the everyday lives of our people, as they make decisions on roads, housing, water, sewerage, planning, development, environmental protection, recreation, amenities, emergency services, grants, courthouses, libraries, harbours, piers, quays, the arts, beach cleaning, derelict sites, by-laws, etc. We need to encourage people to stand for local elections. I already mentioned the democratic deficit which must be addressed soon. The electronic experiment is a good idea.

Mr. Callely

I wish to share my time with Deputy McGuinness.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Callely

I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate on the disclosure of expenditure for the forthcoming local elections. I pay tribute to all current and former members of local authorities who serve and have served their authorities, ward areas and constituents well. It is important we acknowledge that there are committed, dedicated and enthusiastic people who have participated in local government. Some entered to use it as a stepping stone, others left for one reason or another while others have remained in local government because that is their desire. It is important we recognise that people have become involved in local government for different reasons. Deputy Sheehan, who has a long and honourable record in local government, recognises that during his time people on councils have come and gone because of certain issues. We must acknowledge that ordinary people have been involved in local government. I have seen lobby groups such as ACRA and others play an important role because of the position they adopted on certain topics. As a member of Dublin City Council, I acknowledge the input and commitment of the officials of Dublin Corporation, many of whom I have dealt with.

I stood for election to local government in 1985 when I had the fire in my belly to try to achieve some of my goals at local level. I then attempted to do so at national level, and I acknowledge that the fact I was a public representative at local level and my consequent experience, participation and success or otherwise assisted me in becoming a Member of Dáil Éireann, in preparing for issues I wished to tackle at national level and in achieving what I wanted.

I have mixed views, as do many contributors, on the content of the Bill. Most of us would like to see transparency through disclosure of expenditure to a certain extent but not a situation where the scales tip too much towards disclosure of expenditure and donations received. In this regard, the Bill requires donations beyond a certain limit to be disclosed and requires each candidate to submit a one page income and expenditure statement to the local authority in whose area they were a candidate for the election. However, the Bill does not require candidates to restrict their expenditure on their campaigns. The disclosure requirement relates to the four weeks prior to the election and I am sure people will be able to avoid certain aspects of that.

I support the concept of a statutory scheme for disclosure of income and expenditure during local elections but it should be broader and wider and should accommodate the bare statutory requirements. I do not want to delve into the nitty gritty of detail but the concept of bare disclosure which allows for transparency is admirable and we should seek to achieve that. It has been said that there are too many candidates to maintain a limit on their expenditure. I understand there are corporation, county council, urban district council and town commissioner elections. I am not sure what other forms of local elections there are. That is only four groupings and one limit could be set either for them all or for each of the four categories. There would not be a wide variance between members seeking election to Dublin City Council or Cork City Council and the same is the case for county and urban district council and town commissioner elections.

I am open-minded on the issue of the dual mandate because I would like to be able to concentrate my energies and efforts on legislation. The Bill states that, after this election, Members will not be able to seek re-election to councils nor will they be able to hold the offices of chairman or mayor. I am not sure that is true democracy. The roles of Members of the Oireachtas and members of local authorities complement each other. I have asked two friends to run with me for local government so that, if at any time in future I decide to concentrate my efforts on legislation, I will have two friends in local government. While I am open on the issue, it should be asked if, in writing this into legislation, we are saying a Member cannot work in any other capacity. Some Deputies are members of professions, such as the legal and accountancy professions. Are we saying we only want Deputies as legislators and do not want them to have any hand, act or part in any occupation other than that of Member of the Dáil? On the other hand, are we saying that Members are allowed work in other areas but are restricted on the issue of local government? I question the constitutionality of that and whether there is a democratic right to do it.

In principle the Bill is trying to achieve transparency and put in place a structure, which I welcome. Unfortunately a very big project, the Dublin port tunnel project, is to run through my constituency of Dublin North-Central and through my Clontarf ward. Genuine concerns have been expressed by people in the line of the proposed route. They have been faced with bore testing outside their homes which has caused problems to some houses where cracks have appeared. There is a relatively elderly population in the vicinity, some of whom are on a restricted income, perhaps nothing more than a social welfare pension.

At one point the residents were told that the tunnel would be 30 feet under their houses because it was not possible to go any deeper. They were assured that there would be no interference with their houses, but as soon as test bores commenced cracks began to appear. The residents were then told that the tunnel would be 60 feet below their houses.

While the local authority has introduced the big players, including expertise from abroad, the people fighting the scheme have been given no help with professional advice and no support which may be required to obtain such advice. If the legislation is providing for balance in matters of this kind it should be fair and equal.

The Minster is aware that many representations have been made by the Marino Residents Association, the Santry Residents Association, the Combined Residents and the Clontarf Residents. Huge expenditure is involved, yet these groups have been told that when decisions are made the Minister will use his discretion to see whether money will be given back. I take the opportunity to ask the Minister to review this matter along the lines of the provisions contained in the Bill.

Mr. McGuinness

I support this legislation. It is part of the building blocks in the genuine reform of local government. I would like to have seen expenditure in local government elections capped for every candidate. Given the state of technology today, it is possible to ensure that each candidate, regardless of circumstances or the population of the constituency or urban area he or she would represent, accounts for the amount of money he or she spends.

I have been involved in local government for the past 20 years. This legislation will impose responsibilities on every candidate seeking election. Extra powers should be given to the people we elect on 11 June. However, that is not being done. Over recent years the powers of local government have been eroded and successive Governments have been responsible for this. The legislation on managers has removed responsibility and decision making from local government. If we are asking the public representatives who will be elected next month to account for themselves and assume responsibility we should at least remove from central Government its role in local government and place it in the hands of elected public representatives. Until we do that we cannot seriously talk about reforming the Oireachtas.

Given the state of the current system, well outlined by Deputy Sheehan, there is a need for a dual mandate because there is no protocol for local authorities to observe instances where a Member of the Oireachtas is not a member of local government. All Members know they can only serve their constituents fully if they are members of a local authority. It is essential to continuing one's life as a national politician to be involved in the local scene or to ensure, in the words of Deputy Callely, that one has friends in court. That is not acceptable and it should be changed. In the interim the Minister should focus on providing each local authority with a proper protocol and with ensuring that the rights of Oireachtas representatives are observed. At present, some constituencies and counties do not observe the right of Oireachtas representatives to certain information. The system in the neighbouring county in my constituency is one example.

There is also a need to maintain a balance here. While there is nothing wrong with asking local and national politicians to be accountable, to open their homes and souls to the public and to remove their privacy by submitting all the information that is required, there is a limit. In the interests of balancing the equation there is a need for public officials to become more accountable within the system. In the UK the Prime Minister is introducing legislation to make officials more accountable. Given that so much power rests in the hands of national and local officials, it is time Departments examined the possibility of introducing legislation that would at least put them on a par with public representatives in terms of accountability. The sooner that happens the sooner there will be greater efficiencies within the system.

The whole area of planning, housing and the general charge by local government over its affairs must be examined. If we elect people at local level to legislate and look after the affairs of any of the councils, corporations, urban councils or town commissioners they must be free to act with a full responsible role in terms of all the issues I have raised. If they act responsibly and if the officials are held to account we would strengthen the local government system. There is a need to acknowledge the expense incurred by local government members. I have served for 20 years but there are people on Kilkenny Corporation who have served since 1950. Others have had a dual mandate during that time and they know the expense of being a public representative. There is a need within the system to take that expense to one side and to make it possible for all, regardless of means, to be in a position to serve those who elected them so that people with financial means are not in a position to give a greater service than those without. That would cater for the increasing numbers of community activists who are participating in local government.

There is also a need for the Department to ensure that there are sufficient funds for the new SPCs to enable them play an active role. In my own local authority area one of the first actions in the 1999 estimates was to remove a sizeable sum of money which had been provided to ensure that the SPCs functioned efficiently. If legislation was introduced to include all these committees to make local government more accountable and inclusive we would have to provide the staff and the money to ensure that at least the new system functions. The only reason the money was removed from the estimate was that insufficient funds were provided by central government.

This raises the difficult question of how local government should be funded. It is only by properly funding local government and allowing it to raise its funds locally that we will address the problem of empowerment of local public representatives. There are many innovative ways by which local authorities can raise money locally. What is lacking is the legislation to make it happen. As long as this system remains, there is a need for the dual mandate. Within that dual mandate every local public representative has a democratic right to be chairman or mayor of his or her local authority. I support the Bill.

Mr. Sargent

Ba mhaith liom mo chuid ama a roinnt le mo chara, an Teachta John Gormley.

The Green Party has worked for local government reform and decentralisation since its establishment. Whereas many people here speak automatically about local authorities, I often wonder whether they realise that a local authority is, by implication, a far less democratic structure than local government. Democracy is all the poorer because there are local authorities, what we should have is local government. In my constituency the building by Fingal County Council of a headquarters in a town park is just one of many examples of bad planning. Whereas thousands of people collected signatures stating that was the wrong location for such a building, that it should be built on the periphery of Swords, the capital town of Fingal, the local authority management believed otherwise. Many of the members disagreed although many others just adopted the line given to them by management. That is an example of where local government reform is needed.

In Ireland too few people make too many decisions which affect the lives of many people. For real democracy to exist there must be a sense of ownership of the democratic process. By that I mean not only participation in elections but also active involvement in decision making. The Green Party believes passionately in decentralisation, but it is a concept which has been badly misrepresented. Moving from an office block in one part of the country to an office block in another part is not decentralisation. Decentralisation is the devolving of decisions from central Government to the regions, to the people who live closest to and are most affected by such decisions. Real decentralisation means the surrender of power, something which political parties other than the Green Party seem unwilling to accept.

The first stage of local government is the community. Community associations and residence groups which have evolved informally need to be given formal recognition, structures and powers. Community councils need to be able to oversee the maintenance of standards in their communities and be responsible for such things as footpath repair, road signage and environmental upkeep. They should also be consulted in the planning process, as are other groups.

The next level of local government should be district councils. They would be similar to the present county councils and borough corporations. District councils would have greater independence from national Government and their remit would be increased to incorporate functions of present day, largely unaccountable structures such as health boards, vocational education committees, harbour commissioners etc. Regional government would operate at a provincial or sub-provincial level, for example, a publicly elected Dublin regional authority. It would mainly be concerned with the development of regional policy and the co-ordination of local government at district council level.

The role of national Government would be much reduced as a result of those reforms. Dáil Éireann would have fewer Members and there would be smaller and fewer Departments. National Government would only be concerned with the development of national laws and standards and the fulfilling of international obligations. That change would be fundamental to this House. When one considers how minute are some of the matters on the Adjournment, that shows how far we are from local government reform.

The changes in the electoral system which are needed to bring about such reform would require the holding of much more regular local, regional and national referenda and the introduction of a petition system, which is widely used in other countries such as Switzerland.

We need to initiate a policy to bring about legislation and undertake constitutional change. In that regard, I want to refer to the referendum which will be held on the same day as the local elections. The referendum Bill is likely to specify a local authority term of between four and six years. The Green Party asks that the period be fixed at five years to avoid the political manipulation which is giving politics a bad name in the context of the delayed local elections.

We maintain that local communities should have the right to enact by-laws and local legislation which is appropriate to local situations. We would not tolerate interference with the electoral process and would insist that elections could not be postponed. For that reason, I insist that the five year term be put in place without the latitude to which I referred. We seek to have local government decision-making publicly accountable through elections.

On the dual mandate, which has been referred to in most contributions, a person should be a representative either at national or local levels but not both. It is important to realise – people in this House do not need to be reminded – that councillors who are Deputies are assuming the persona of super councillors, councillors who have at their disposal Oireachtas envelopes and secretarial staff and who have the ear of Ministers. They are not, in effect, councillors as elected at local elections. They have an enhanced role on account of their national mandate. I would urge people to bear that in mind. I ask the Government to reflect on the manipulation of the councillors' mandate if Deputies are allowed to be members of local authorities.

Many members of local authorities are unable to scrutinise the amount of material and documentation they receive because of their Dáil duties, which of course include committee responsibilities. That is good for local authority management, who get their say and have their way, but it is not good for democracy or the communities we are here to serve.

Unlike other democratic countries, Ireland has no constitutional provision in recognition of the need to protect local government. Neither is Ireland a signatory to the European charter on self-government, and that is shameful. Our lack of acknowledgement of local authorities and local democracy makes this debate somewhat hollow. The Green Party considers that these are commitments which must be entered into if local government is to be given the status it deserves.

The funding of local government by national Government increases the dependence of local authorities and stymies independent action. Such methods of funding local government are not only politically wrong, they are also very inefficient. Taxation which is centrally collected is siphoned off by being passed through several Departments, thus being reduced in value before it returns to the community from where it originally came. Unfortunately, the 1977 landslide Fianna Fáil victory seems to be at the root of much of the waste involved in funding of local government by central Government. The burden should be shifted from central taxation and the money collected locally.

The Green Party believes that government at all levels, in its practices and policies, should be open, transparent and accountable. Information should be freely available in a user-friendly format. That is nominally the case but many people have come to me – I am sure other Members can speak from their experience also – and said it is not easy to get information as promised in the Freedom of Information Act, 1997. It remains to be seen whether Fingal County Council headquarters, which was built in the middle of the town of Swords, resulting in congestion and problems of parking and accessibility, will be better able to provide information than had it been built, as many people wished, on the periphery of Swords town.

Mr. Gormley

I thank my colleague, Deputy Sargent, for sharing his time. Whenever local government is debated I am reminded of Ghandi. He was asked what he thought of western democracy and he said that he thought it would be a good idea. Similarly, local government is a good idea. Unfortunately, its practice leaves much to be desired and, in effect, Ireland has local administration and not local government. This can be seen in the powers which have been given to local government.

Local authorities have the power to devise development plans and that has been used. However, these powers, which are known as reserve functions, have also been abused and this is seen in rezonings and sections 4 motions. Unfortunately, while the power given to councillors under section 4 can be used to good effect, it very seldom is. Often powers, such as those to devise an air or water quality management plan or a waste plan, are not used. They are put to one side and councillors do not exercise them. The manager comes back with a plan which is rubber-stamped by council members.

Even the limited powers that are provided are not used and are very often abused. This has brought local government into disrepute. This is serious because then central Government says that it could not give these people more power because of what they have done. Ways must be sought around that because if people are treated like children, they will behave like children. We ought to give them more power.

The rezoning issue must be examined carefully. Often a local councillor says that he is opposed to a rezoning and goes back to the electorate to tell them this. Of course, all his colleagues have voted for the rezoning. To introduce more accountability councillors, together with the county or city manager, should make the decision rather than the entire council. Therefore, the individual would have to go back to the electorate, be accountable, look for votes at the next election and if they had misbehaved, they simply would not get votes. That is a way around the current problem.

Another problem is that local authorities do not have money or the wherewithal to raise important taxes. I am envious of my Green Party colleagues in other countries when I see the type of local government they have. It is completely different and part of the reason for that is that these countries have different electoral systems. Many speakers mentioned the dual mandate and my party is implacably opposed to it. I gave up my seat on Dublin Corporation and recognise that it is an electoral disadvantage. However, I know that the Minister wants to remove the dual mandate and if that were done, many Members would be at a disadvantage because local councillors would be able to do work on the ground. "Pavement politics" as the Liberal Democrats call it in England or "parish pump" politics as it is referred to in Ireland is vital if one is to retain one's seat in this House. Under the current system, with multi-seat constituencies, one must get every vote in, and I speak from personal experience having won my seat by a mere 27 votes. It is absolutely vital that one keeps active locally.

If we are to get rid of the dual mandate, we must change our electoral system. We must have a European style list system or a top up system such as that to be introduced in Scotland and elsewhere at national level. It would mean that people would vote for policies and ideas, for individuals who may have repaired a footpath locally etc. Under the present system such actions are vital but if we moved away from that we would become legislators, which is what we are supposed to be.

This system operates in Germany to great effect. Under it, there is also a 5 per cent threshold. This would cause a difficulty for small parties, such as the Progressive Democrats and the Green Party, which enhance democracy. However, the threshold could be lower – it is 4 per cent in Sweden – and that is a matter for the Minister. Deputy Dempsey spoke about this when he was in Opposition but, unfortunately, he has left it to one side since taking up office. He should re-examine the issue and introduce a system that would enhance national and local government.

Previous speakers referred to the fact that the Bill does not contain a cap on expenditure. That is an oversight because, undoubtedly, some people will spend huge amounts of money on their campaigns using colour leaflets etc. That is not a level playing field. People become slightly cynical when glossy literature is put through their letter boxes and it may backfire in some cases. However, if one has a great amount of money, one can buy one's way into this House. The first step is to win a seat on one's local authority. If there is a cap on expenditure for European and general elections, there should also be one for local elections. I ask the Minister to examine that and introduce a Bill before the local elections to cap spending because it is still possible to do so.

It is eight years since local elections were held and that is indicative of the way local government is treated. Another indication was the debacle surrounding regionalisation and Objective One status when Ireland was the laughing stock of Europe. The EU knows that local government is not taken seriously in Ireland and that it is just there to get as much European money as possible. There is no decentralisation or empowerment. Report after report on local government has been published. The Barrington report is still gathering dust and nothing has been done in this important area. We are worse off as a result because it has been shown that countries and cities which have good local government are able to deal with problems effectively.

A comparative study of traffic management in Bologna, Helsinki and Athens was recently conducted by Trinity College. Local government in these cities was able to deal effectively with the traffic problem. There is traffic chaos in Dublin simply because it has an antiquated local government system and people have no power to deal with it. There is now a director of traffic who is doing his best under the circumstances.

Mr. Kenny

He is failing badly.

Mr. Gormley

He is doing his best under the circumstances.

Mr. Kenny

Does he drive around the city?

Mr. Gormley

Successive Governments have had the opportunity to decentralise and empower local government and it has not been done. If it had been done we would have a different type of city, one which worked efficiently with good public transport. It was deliberately not done, it has been allowed to happen.

If we are to have efficient cities we must have directly elected mayors. It is proposed that London will have a mayor with executive powers. Many city and county managers do not like this idea but it would be a welcome development. It would be a sign that we had matured and were taking local government seriously.

Mr. Kenny

I wish to share my time with Deputy Deenihan.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Kirk)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Kenny

This Bill is simple in nature but important. I do not know how long the Minister of State spent writing his contribution but it contained a degree of padding. I served as a member of Mayo County Council for 20 years and had to relinquish my seat when I had the privilege of being appointed to Cabinet in the previous Government. There is no doubt that service on a local authority is a good training ground for those who wish to serve at national level because it gives an understanding of how local democracy works and provides experience in handling negotiations, dealing with problems and becoming involved in leadership and development, and of how State agencies and local authorities interact.

It is unfortunate that this Bill should have to be introduced. I was reared in a political household. My late father served in this House for 20 years before I came here and, like him, I was elected to the Dáil before I served on the local authority. I strongly believe that when a person is elected to any body by secret ballot, representation based on that voting method establishes a contract of trust. If that contract is broken for the sake of money, that public representative loses his good name and is not fit to serve at the level at which he or she has been elected. A bought public representative or representative in any capacity is not a representative because he has breached the fundamental contract of trust bestowed by democracy through the ballot box. This Bill is a consequence of that breach.

The Fine Gael proposal is simple and effective. Candidates will know there is a cap on expenditure and they must respond under certain conditions, and that when the election is over a proportion of those who were successful and those who were unsuccessful in each local authority area will have their expenditure assessed. The first part of the Minister's speech raises objections to imposing a limit, such as that an army of people would be needed to check the expenditure, and there are good and valid reasons for raising those objections. However, under our scheme candidates would know from the beginning that, say, eight of the 31 councillors elected in County Mayo and a smaller proportion of unsuccessful candidates will be assessed, that those found to be in breach of clear guidelines will pay the penalty and that the elected members who are found in breach will not be allowed to serve for the remainder of the council term. People would understand those rules and adhere to them. It is a simple and effective measure.

The Minister said: "It is intended to analyse expenditure at the elections and this data will be useful to see if an expenditure limit is necessary in future, especially if different limits should be set for candidates and political parties contesting elections in differently sized authorities." This information will pile up on sheaves of paper, which could be recycled for many uses. It will be transferred onto floppy disk when one will be able to see immediately how much a candidate has spent. If an eminent Member of this House or a businessman attends a political meeting and decides to contribute to a campaign, he will have to register his donation. He may have completely forgotten that he made it but if he does not register it he will be in breach of the law. I wonder how many will do that.

Some contributions were valid and there is a lot of experience of this matter in the House. I do not think it necessary to have a dual mandate, to be both an Oireachtas Member and a local authority member. Having served on a local authority and gone through the system, I do not find it a disadvantage to the work one tries to do here. When the dual mandate is abolished it would be a good idea to have a forum on a quarterly basis where issues relevant to a local authority would be discussed by council members and Oireachtas Members. We could discuss the issues relevant to the parties, the issues which should be raised in this House, amendments to legislation, contacts with Ministers etc. National politicians are not fully acquainted with everything which happens at local authority level and a quarterly forum would be a good idea in that regard.

There is also the question of responsibilities of local authority members. It is said that when they are given power they are afraid to use it because tough decisions might have to be made but with the differences in the remit and role of local authority members, this too will change.

How effective will the chairmen of the new special policy committees be? These committees are a combination of members of political parties and voluntary organisations. Will the chairman of the roads committee have clout within his local authority? Group water schemes are of great interest to local authority members. Will the federation of group water schemes be able to change the priority listing of water schemes within local authorities? If members of Wexford County Council, for instance, decide the list of group water schemes to be dealt with in a year, could the federation change this list without having a member on the relevant committee? If a person becomes an elected representative that should be accompanied by authority.

I ask the Minister to deal with section 4 applications. These are being re-introduced in some local authorities even though they are the subject of a reserve judgment of the Supreme Court. I will provide one important example of a planning issue. The Great Western Hotel in Mulranny was considered part of the seaside resort scheme for designation purposes. The person who applied for permission spent £110,000 on plans and designs. After exhaustive meetings with Mayo County Council, planning permission was granted. An objection was lodged by An Taisce and other groups and the scheme was turned down by An Bord Pleanála because there would be too much glass in the proposed building. Sustainable development was lost because it was said it would be intrusive on the landscape, but it is now an eyesore, a collapsing, decaying, derelict building standing on one of the best sites in Europe. The council was prepared to give permission to provide sustainable development and jobs in this area but it was shot down by An Bord Pleanála for some inexplicable reason. It would have been as good as a factory. The £10 million has been withdrawn and the opportunity to develop the site has been lost.

I met a businessman recently who informed me that he had to visit a well known golf club, take out green fees and meal tickets and give them to an official in the county council because he would not have received fair treatment if he had not done so. I mentioned the matter to the official concerned who denied any knowledge of it and I must confess that I have no proof that the events outlined actually took place.

The Minister of State indicated that local authority officials also have responsibilities in this area. However, the fact that the power to make decisions is being removed from the contract of trust to which I referred earlier means that the responsibility placed on the shoulders of local government officials will be denigrated. We should set down a clear standard whereby these people can be removed from the employment of local authorities for abusing that privilege.

Mr. Deenihan

The Minister of State has admitted that the Bill is a rather minimalistic approach to local government reform. In fairness, he has not stated that it should be seen as a measure of major reform. However, it is an important provision which is intended to introduce order and control to the system of funding of local elections.

I agree with Deputy Kenny and others who stated that the Bill should have included a cap on expenditure. Everyone can cite examples of people who were successful in gaining election as a result of investing considerable sums of money into local election campaigns. It is easier to win a local election in this manner than it is to win a general election because one is obliged to buy less votes. In the past, ambitious young politicians and their older counterparts have spent large sums of money to ensure their election to local authorities or to prevent someone else's election. Their ultimate aim is usually to set themselves up as a candidate in a subsequent general election. That is one of the major flaws in the Bill.

The Minister of State should accept an amendment on Committee Stage along the lines proposed by Fine Gael, namely, that spot checks should be introduced in tandem with a cap on expenditure. Perhaps he might consider using the model that applies to Deputies in this regard but some effort must be made to cap expenditure. If action is not taken, the legislation will become meaningless. What is the point in declaring expenditure of up to £50,000 if there is no cap? Our efforts here will be wasted if a cap is not introduced because under the terms of the Bill people are only obliged to state the origin of funding, the names of contributors etc. I advise the Minister of State and his officials to give serious consideration to Fine Gael's suggestion because if a cap is introduced in tandem with spot checks, we will be in a position to penalise those who exceed the limits on expenditure.

The Minister of State is aware that community candidates, independents and those representing interest groups are discouraged from going forward for election because they cannot compete with the major parties which have ample resources and various means of collecting money. The main political parties are well versed in distributing election literature, displaying posters, using cards on election day and operating election offices as call centres from where volunteers can contact people and canvass their votes. There is no way independent or community candidates can compete with that kind of financial input from the major parties or with candidates who have access to large campaign funds.

I accept that the Bill will introduce some order to the financing of local elections, but without the presence of a cap on expenditure it will not serve its purpose. I have no concrete evidence but I retain suspicions about the activities of certain candidates in previous elections. Certain candidates put forward strong views on particular issues and there is a public perception that if they are elected they might be able to influence planning matters. Following the abolition of land rates and water charges, councillors have very little power in terms of spending money but they retain their influence in respect of planning. There is a perception abroad that speculators and others who provide financial support to candidates or county councillors with expertise in planning matters will have a better opportunity of obtaining planning permission or the proper advice. Everyone has suspicions about candidates who engaged in such behaviour in the past and perhaps the tribunals will confirm those suspicions. The fact that a cap on expenditure will not be introduced will allow some candidates to obtain additional funding if it appears that they may be able to influence events.

I will now refer to the dual mandate. I am standing as a candidate in the local elections but I would have preferred to inform my party that, due to my Dáil commitments, I will not be able to devote 100 per cent of my time to Kerry County Council if I am elected. The Minister would have done everyone a favour if he had excluded Oireachtas Members from the elections but he did not do so. In this instance, I believe that is a result of the influence of Deputy Healy-Rae. The Minister should have gone the full distance and abolished the dual mandate but I accept that he has given a commitment to do so in the major local government reform Bill which is currently in preparation.

I agree with Deputy Kenny's comments in respect of the forum. A mechanism should be put in place which would allow councillors, Deputies, Ministers and Senators serving particular constituencies to come together and meet on a quarterly basis. That would be a good exercise in democracy, particularly if people felt obligated to attend. If such a forum was nothing more than a talking shop, it would probably survive for three to four meetings before people's interest fizzled out. However, it is a good proposal.

The county manager in Kerry is a young individual with modern ideas. He called some Members of the Oireachtas to an 8 o'clock breakfast meeting last week, which I, as someone who is not a member of a county council, found to be a good exercise. The Minister should examine this issue.

The Minister of State said he hopes to issue guidelines as soon as possible. That is important. Draft guidelines should be issued now to the local authorities and to candidates and it should be pointed out that they may not be the final guidelines. It is important that councillors and candidates are given draft guidelines on expenditure and so forth so that they will be prepared for the final proposals.

This all comes down to bookkeeping and people being disciplined in keeping proper records. Keeping records of expenses is alien to many of us. Treasurers of branches and cumainn who have never kept accounts are worried that if they make a statement, which is subsequently found to be incorrect, they could end up in court.

I agree with the introduction of electronic voting, which will avoid the problems associated with the present cumbersome but effective and foolproof system. With our PR system, it will be difficult to operate. I look forward to seeing how the system will operate when it comes to a 20th count. We will have to bring in Bill Gates to devise the ultimate system. It is fine in theory, but it will be difficult to operate in practice. I look forward to the introduction of major legislation on local government.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government (Mr. D. Wallace)

I thank the Deputies who contributed to the debate, which I am sure all Members will agree was far-reaching. In any debate on local electoral matters, it is inevitable speakers will touch on the many areas for which local authorities are responsible. I will confine my remarks generally to the provisions of the Bill. Deputies will have other opportunities this year to debate the important points raised in regard to planning, housing, ethics, local government reform and other relevant areas. The House will have another occasion shortly to discuss the broad role of local authorities when the constitutional amendment Bill is introduced to provide for a referendum to be held in June to insert into the Constitution an acknowledgement of the role local authorities play in our society. Two other important Bills will be introduced, a comprehensive local government Bill and a consolidated planning Bill. Deputy Stanton and others raised the issue of the forthcoming referendum to insert a new article into the Constitution which would recognise the role played by local authorities in our society. The constitutional amendment Bill is expected to be published on Friday, as the Deputy stated. It must be passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas by 11 May and I understand that Bill will be before the House on 11 May.

I wish to respond to Deputy Gilmore's amendment asking the House to decline to give a second reading to this Bill. Other Deputies also stated that the Bill does not include a limitation on a candidate's election expenditure at local elections. The scheme provided for in the Bill is simple. It retains the principles of disclosure of donations and expenditure contained in the Electoral Act, 1997, without the bureaucracy, which a scheme under section 72 of that Act would entail. The Bill goes further than the 1997 Act. This was acknowledged by some Deputies in the debate last Thursday. Each candidate will be required to state whether he or she uses his or her own money or donations to fund expenditure on the election and details will have to be provided on any donation received over £500.

I would like to consider some of the reasons advanced by the Opposition for an expenditure limit at local elections. The two main points raised were that there should be no difficulty in determining expenditure limits and that there should not be two sets of standards, one local and one national. There are a number of substantive reasons the Bill does not include a limit on expenditure at the local elections. First, there is the scale of size, number of candidates and constituencies at local elections as compared to Dáil and European elections. We are not comparing like with like. This country is not alone in not having expenditure limits at local elections. Most of our EU partners do not have expenditure limits at local elections.

Second, any limit on expenditure would have to be fair to all candidates. What limit or limits should be set? I have not heard any Member of either House advocate the setting of a limit or limits suggesting an amount or amounts. There is probably a good reason for that. I do not know if anybody has much, if any, information on what would be a fair amount to set as a limit. If it is so easy to decide expenditure limits, why did the parties opposite, when in Government, not include them in the Electoral Bill, 1994, as it was know when it was amended extensively on Committee Stage in 1997. The parties knew that local elections were to be held in the near future and if limits were included then, we might not be here today discussing this Bill. I can only conclude that they, too, recognised the difficulties of deciding expenditure limits for local elections without any research being carried out on past trends and on what an adequate limit or limits should be.

I cannot accept the argument that just because there are monetary limits for the Dáil and European elections, we should have limits for local elections. One must ask how the Dáil limits were set? What research was carried out to see if the limits were fair and adequate? While we have no experience of operating the Dáil limits at a general election, we have experience of operating the limits at by-elections. I was interested to hear Deputy Hayes say that the existing Dáil limits are adequate, but what happened at the Limerick and Dublin North by-elections?

Mr. Ferris

We won them.

Mr. D. Wallace

I ask Deputies to allow me to finish. They had an opportunity to speak, but none of them came into the House. Only one member of the Labour Party spoke on this Bill.

Mr. Ferris

The Minister of State asked what happened at those by-elections and I told him that we won them.

Acting Chairman

Let us hear the Minister of State without interruption.

Mr. D. Wallace

The expenditure limits were exceeded by a national agent in Limerick and by an election agent in Dublin North. Does this suggest adequacy? How adequate will the limits be in three years' time when a general election is held?

The Minister proposed that instead of picking an amount out of the air, just for the sake of having expenditure limits, the candidates' completed forms should be analysed so that in future there would be hard information available to consider whether there should be limits, either an overall limit or different limits for different types or sizes of local electoral areas. This will also highlight any candidate who expended large sums at the election and, of more interest, how successful he or she was at the election.

Deputies opposite also stated that a section 72 scheme, regardless of the bureaucracy and the cost it would entail, should be introduced. Do we want a situation to develop in local electoral areas where there could be more election agents, accountants and other staff than the number of candidates just to keep a record of every item of expenditure?

Mr. Hayes

On a point of order, it is normal practice in the House that when a Minister makes a statement in the House copies of his or her statement are circulated. As the spokesperson for the Opposition on this matter, I request a copy of the Minister of State's statement.

Acting Chairman

I must advise the Deputy that the Minister of State is not obliged to circulate his script.

Mr. D. Wallace

I circulated my Second Stage script.

Acting Chairman

I call on the Minister of State to proceed.

Mr. Hayes

It is highly disrespectful to the House.

Mr. D. Wallace

If the Deputy was in here listening to the debate all day he would know what was happening.

Mr. Hayes

I was listening to it.

Acting Chairman

Let us hear the Minister of State without interruption.

Mr. D. Wallace

I also heard Deputies complain about the number of forms to be completed. We cannot have it both ways. If we want a scheme with expenditure limits, we will have more form filling, otherwise the scheme would not work.

There is no justification for imposing expenditure limits at local elections just for the sake of having limits. There is no evidence available that the lack of an expenditure limit will lead to an increase in expenditure by all candidates. There is no evidence that the lack of a limit will benefit candidates and parties who can raise the most money. Deputies know that local elections are about electing local candidates. The local electorate is not dumb. It will not be misled by a candidate of no substance who has plenty of money. It is insulting to the intelligence of the electorate for the Deputies opposite to assert that the electorate will be duped by extensive expenditure.

To summarise, the proposals in the Bill will meet the major principles established in the Electoral Act, 1997, by a scheme which is focused at local level in line with the purpose of the elections. The scheme will be less bureaucratic, less costly and easier to understand and implement than a scheme under the 1997 Act. After the election, the documentation will be available locally for inspection by any interested person.

We want a workable scheme which is fair. We do not want a scheme with expenditure limits which would make the scheme unworkable and which might necessitate an army of accountants and agents to monitor it. We do not want to have more agents and accountants than candidates in local electoral areas. I cannot accept the Deputy's amendment and I would ask him not to press it.

Deputy Hayes and Deputy Gilmore referred to the fact that the Bill's provisions generally relate only to the four weeks before polling day. The Bill provides that expenditure on election expenses between the polling day order and polling day should be declared in the statement to be furnished under section 13. The Bill also provides that all election expenses incurred before the date of the polling day order for the provision of property, goods or services for use during the period between the polling day order and polling day should be included in the statement. However, for the forthcoming election, the operative date for disclosing election expenses will be the date the President signed the Bill into law, as until that date there is no legal duty on a candidate to keep records of expenditure, nor is there any legal provision governing election expenses at local elections.

Deputies referred to the fact that the Bill will permit chairperson's of Oireachtas committees to stand for local elections. I would like to explain the background to this matter. Section 6 of the Local Government Act, 1994, provides for the disqualification of a range of office holders from local authority membership, including MEPs, Ministers, Ministers of State, judges, the Ceann Comhairle, the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, and chairs of Oireachtas committees. In regard to the latter, this disqualification does not currently apply but it will commence for the purposes of the June local elections and thereafter. Under section 6, the chairs of some Oireachtas committees are exempt from disqualification, but not others.

Mr. Neville

Deputy Healy-Rae.

Mr. D. Wallace

Section 24 of the Bill will remove the disqualification in respect of the chairs of all Oireachtas committees. Naturally, this would apply irrespective of the individual or party holding the position of chair of any committee. There are currently over 20 such committees along with a number of sub-committees. All committees should be treated equally.

Mr. Ferris

Why?

Mr. D. Wallace

In the long run and in the context of the Government's programme for the renewal of local government, the most appropriate response would be the termination of the dual local authority-Oireachtas mandate for all members without differentiation. With this in mind, the major Local Government Reform Bill, which is currently being drafted to underpin the renewal programme and modernise and consolidate local government law will provide, inter alia, for the elimination of the dual mandate from a future date, probably the local elections in 2004.

The question was also raised about the disqualification of Oireachtas Members from the post of cathaoirleach of local authorities. This is different from the disqualification of the chairs of Oireachtas committees from local authority membership. Unlike the latter, the disqualification of Oireachtas Members from the post of cathaoirleach applies equally to all Members of the Oireachtas. It does not differentiate between Oireachtas Members by disqualifying some and not others. Even under the current system of local government, the post of cathaoirleach brings with it substantial demands in terms of time and commitment. It is only right and proper that a councillor is in a position to focus fully on the job of cathaoirleach.

The Local Government Bill being prepared will provide a sound and modern context for local authorities to deliver their services efficiently. The position of the cathaoirleach of a local authority is under consideration in the context of this Bill. Under present law, he or she is elected annually by the members of the local authority con cerned. In practice this has meant a one year term of office for the post and, as such, is unlikely to enhance democratic leadership and responsibility. Among the options being considered to enhance the democratic mandate are the election of the cathaoirleach directly by the people, or a continuation of the present system but with a longer term than the current annual one. Such a cathaoirleach would be in a far better position to provide leadership underpinned by an enhanced democratic mandate and supported by the SPC chairs. The legislation to be published soon will set out the proposed arrangements as well as other measures to underline the distinctive status of local authority membership.

Deputy Hayes referred to further duplication of returns by Members of the Oireachtas. If a Member of the Oireachtas is a candidate, whether elected or not, he or she will have to furnish a donation-election expenses statement. This is in addition to the statements he or she will continue to have to make to the Public Offices Commission under the Electoral Act,1997, and the Ethics Act. If Members of the Oireachtas are excluded there will be complaints that all candidates are not being treated equally and also the information on expenditure at the local elections will not be complete. This would reduce the value of any analysis afterwards of this expenditure. In any event, why should Members of the Oireachtas be treated differently from other candidates at local elections?

In a Dáil or European election, the election agent of a candidate must furnish a statement of election expenses. While a successful candidate does not have to submit a donation statement until the following January, an unsuccessful candidate has to submit a separate donation statement. In other words, if the 1997 Act was followed, two statements would have to be furnished. Under the Bill's provisions, only one statement has to be furnished.

The Department of Finance is looking at the possibility of combining some or all of the returns to be made by Members of the Oireachtas under the two main Acts. The content of the forms at local elections will also be considered in this review. If the Minister's proposal on ending the dual mandate to be included in the new Local Government Bill is implemented, this problem will not arise again. In addition, the forms will be kept as short and as simple as possible.

Deputy Hayes and Deputy Gilmore raised the question of third party expenditure. The system for disclosure of election expenses relates essentially to expenditure incurred by and on behalf of candidates and political parties. It is possible that persons who are not themselves directly involved in the election may seek to influence the outcome and, for this purpose, incur expenditure. Persons who are not connected to or associated with any party or candidate contesting the election may also decide to incur expenditure with a view to promoting or opposing a particular outcome.

It would be inappropriate and, possibly, contrary to the spirit if not the letter of the constitutional provision regarding freedom of expression to prohibit advertising by third parties. Everybody has a right to express his or her views on any matter of public interest and incur expenditure for this purpose, if he or she thinks it proper to do so. The Act places no restriction on this kind of advertising and sets no limits to the amounts that may be spent for this purpose, except that such a person is required to register in advance with a local authority and furnish an account of such expenditure after the election in the same way as an agent or designated person of a party or candidate and such information will be published.

The publisher of a newspaper, magazine or other periodical publication is prohibited from publishing any advertisement or notice in relation to an election purporting to promote or oppose, directly or indirectly, the interests of a political party or a candidate at that election at the request of any person other than an election agent, designated person, candidate or a person authorised by them unless the person produces to the publisher a certificate from a local authority that the person has complied with the requirements of the Bill.

Deputy Noel Ahern asked about two aspects of the Bill, one of which is donations. Only donations over £500 have to be disclosed separately on the statement to be furnished to a local authority. Smaller donations do not have to be disclosed unless the aggregate of small donations from the same person to the same candidate at the same election exceeds £500.

The Deputy's second point concerned the reuse of election material. In so far as local elections are concerned, the position is covered in section 6(1)(b)(ix) of the Bill. If election expenses were incurred in the provision of property, goods or services for use in respect of a previous presidential, Dáil, European or local election and such expenses were included in a statement of election expenses furnished to the Public Offices Commission or to a local authority in relation to the previous election, such election expenses would be an exempted expenditure under the Bill. However the position does not work in reverse. The 1997 Act does not provide that the cost of property, goods or services incurred in connection with a local election and disclosed in a statement to a local authority is exempted expenditure for a Dáil or European election. This is an aspect of the Electoral Act, 1997, which will have to be reviewed at the next available opportunity.

Deputy Browne raised the point about photographs on ballot papers for local elections. As Deputies are aware, there will not be photographs on local election ballot papers. The Minister has undertaken to review the position of photographs on all ballot papers after an evaluation of their use in the European elections. The use of photographs on ballot papers in the European election is a first for this country, and indeed for most other countries. Very few countries put photographs on ballot papers. To assist in the evaluation after the June elections, the Minister has commissioned a study to be carried out by consultants on the use of photographs including the assistance photographs for electors with literacy difficulties. I have noted the comments of Deputies in the matter. The Minister would welcome the views of Deputies on the use of photographs on ballot papers after their use in the June European elections.

Mr. Hayes

I hope the public are not frightened by all this.

Mr. D. Wallace

Deputies referred to the making of annual disclosure by elected members. The local government Bill currently in preparation provides an ideal opportunity for the review and preparation of an ethical framework for the local government service. This review will include the widening of ethical provisions to all local government activities and not just the planning area. It will take account of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995, and the work of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service on the draft standards in public office proposals. It will also take account of similar legislation in other jurisdictions. Additional areas to be considered include powers and mechanisms for investigations of contraventions, the drawing up of a code of conduct and the widening of existing disclosures and declaration provisions.

The question of introducing annual disclosure, akin to that required of Members of the Oireachtas and MEPs, can be considered when the local government Bill is debated in the House.

Deputy Hayes raised the issue of additional duties for local authorities as a result of the Bill. The whole idea of the Bill is to provide for a straightforward set of arrangements for everybody concerned – candidates, national agents, designated persons, third parties and local authorities. Local authorities will have duties in relation to the receipt of ratification of appointment of a designated person, publishing details in a local newspaper and responsibilities in relation to statements made under section 13. I do not accept that these duties are excessive or unduly onerous, especially as they will arise only once every five years.

Deputy Gilmore raised the issue of local government reform and spent a considerable time accusing the Minister of inactivity. I do not know where he has been for the past two years but I will list some of the areas where progress has been made. A new funding system which provides additional resources came into place on 1 January based on legislation enacted last year. Local authorities are at present setting up new strategic policy committees and finding new ways of involving local people more closely in their work. All 34 city and county authorities have held their first SPC meetings. An implementation programme for the integration of the local development and local government systems has been drawn up by a task force chaired by the Minister. There is increased emphasis by local authorities on customer service, including a pilot scheme of one stop shops and increasing emphasis on value for money and performance indicators. A range of initiatives is currently under way to modernise human resources policies in local authorities. An initiative to counteract gender imbalance among local authority officials is in hand, and a long service gratuity for councillors aims to recognise the dedicated service of long serving councillors and to widen the opportunity for new entrants, including women and young people, at the local elections in June. Legislation is in preparation which will put in place a modern statutory framework for local government. This legislation will provide a new legislative foundation to underpin the programme of renewal and also implement a range of reforms. I am sure the House agrees that this is a substantial programme of local government renewal and contrasts favourably with progress made in this area by the previous Government.

Deputies Farrelly and Fleming referred to problems arising from the extension of town boundaries for electoral purposes. This arose in 1994 as part of the programme of local government reform. The Local Government Act, 1994, provided for the extension of the boundaries of urban areas in order to bring within these areas development which has taken place outside the existing boundaries and to extend the right to vote at urban elections to electors resident in the urban environs. Under this provision the boundaries of 56 urban local authorities were extended for local electoral purposes at the 1994 local elections. The extensions made for electoral purposes continue for the June local elections. As regards an alteration to a boundary for all local authority purposes, Part V of the Local Government Act, 1991, provides for the procedures to alter a boundary. It is appreciated that the situation following the 1994 revisions is not ideal, especially in Drogheda and Carlow, and needs to be regularised while taking account of financial and organisation complexities pointed to in the report on town local government, Towards Cohesive Local Government – Town and County. The forthcoming local government Bill will provide a modern statutory framework for local authorities and a new context within which the question of local authority boundaries can be considered.

I have noted the comments made by Deputies concerning electronic voting and counting, and I will keep the comments in mind as this matter develops. I appreciate that the immediate reaction might be one of reservation, and this is understandable. I would envisage that under any scheme introduced provision would be made for electors who may not wish to use the new method. Some systems have been demonstrated recently to the Department and they are easy to operate. Demonstrations by personnel from Holland, England and the USA were arranged for Opposition spokesperson but, unfortunately, for good reasons, they were unable to be present. When the research on different equipment is carried out in the autumn I will arrange for a demonstration for Deputies, if requested.

Deputy Hayes referred to the research to be carried out under section 25. The Department will not retain the ballot papers longer than necessary to capture the details from the papers. While I cannot be certain at this point, I would expect that the ballot papers would be destroyed after six months as provided for at present in legislation. It is expected that the capture of the data on the ballot papers will be undertaken by the franchise section of my Department or under its control or supervision. Discussions have yet to be finalised with companies about the software for the STV count. I expect that the software could be developed to reduce, if not end, the present randomness in the count. This is a matter yet to be investigated and it is one which will arise when legislation is drafted to allow for the use of electronic voting and counting, if that matter arises in the future.

I thank Deputies for their co-operation and constructive approach to this Bill.

I hope I have dealt with the main matters raised. This is important legislation. It will oblige political parties and candidates to disclose expenditure and also for the disclosure of donations over £500 received by candidates at the local elections which are used to meet the expenditure incurred. It is an important Bill and I commend it to the House.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question."

Tá

Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.

Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Kennedy, Michael.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Broughan, Thomas.Ferris, Michael.Gormley, John.Howlin, Brendan.McDowell, Derek.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.

O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, William.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Seán.Stagg, Emmet.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S.Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Ferris and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government (Mr. D. Wallace)

Wednesday, 5 May 1999, subject to agreement by the Whips.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 5 May 1999.