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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 May 1999

Vol. 504 No. 2

Private Members' Business. - Public Transport: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, conscious of the current Budget surplus projected this year and the anticipated proceeds of the initial public offering of shares in Telecom Éireann, calls on the Government to immediately commit £140 million of public expenditure to alleviate the national traffic crisis in Dublin and other large regional urban areas; and further calls on the Minister for Public Enterprise to expend this allocation on the following measures to urgently enhance public transport capacity and alleviate traffic flows:

–the immediate ordering and purchase of an additional 250 buses this year for Dublin Bus, specifically to operate on the 11 quality bus corridors, with the objective of providing in the inner cordon area a bus every minute in peak times and every ten minutes thereafter;

–the provision of additional bus maintenance, garage, depot and other facilities to service this expansion of the bus fleet;

–the availability of ‘real time' information systems at bus stops as to vehicle location and passenger information;

–the availability of an integrated ticketing system with a specific provision for both day and monthly tickets covering multi-journeys;

–the provision of a satellite-facilitated, centrally-controlled vehicle tracking system for the entire bus network and a central radio call centre for the taxi industry;

–the availability of bus route franchising, whereby Dublin Bus would subcontract selected arterial routes to the private sector, particularly for cross-city travel;

–to carry out an immediate study and design of potential reverse and contraflow routes;

–the enhancement of air-to-ground traffic surveillance to extend coverage to the entire urban area of Dublin;

–additional investment in high technology traffic control systems in the suburbs to maximise junction capacity and ensure priority for public transport;

–the expansion of Operation Freeflow through additional staff resources, including training;

and furthermore, calls on the Minister to implement the proposals submitted by Bus Éireann to upgrade the public transport bus services in Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Olivia Mitchell, McGrath and Enright.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Minister has been in office for almost two years and during that time the traffic gridlock has become worse in our major cities. Excuses, such as lack of time or context, do not apply in this case. The commuting time for people travelling to and from this city each morning is longer and the congestion is worse. The same is true of other regional centres such as Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway. One has only to listen to the AA Roadwatch bulletins and to witness the daily trauma of people trying to commute to and from work to realise the seriousness of the problem.

There has been no shortage of analysis of this problem. The DTI analysed it for ten years and the Minister has commissioned numerous reports, including the Atkins and Andersen reports. There is now the possibility that the requirement for passenger journeys will outstrip the availability of transport services. The Minister should take the European job the Taoiseach is trying to give her and allow someone with vigour and enthusiasm to resolve the traffic gridlock while she enjoys the greener fields of Europe, where the plush surroundings will complement her ministerial pedigree.

I have more vigour than the Deputy.

This would enable the Celtic tiger's problem of traffic gridlock to be dealt with in a tigerish fashion by another Minister.

The Minister will be remembered for not providing the necessary additional public resources and for allowing Government borrowing, rather than Exchequer grants, to increase in the context of rail safety. Last May she took the critical step of deferring the Luas project, which had its limitations, but which had been designed to include a loop route from Tallaght to the city and Dundrum. The Minister aborted that scheme which cost £220 million and was to be co-financed by Europe. She lunged into a dark tunnel – an experiment which is no closer to reality and which will not be available until 2005. The cost increased from over £400 million to £677 million to over £1 billion. The Department of Finance became so frustrated at the unravelling of Luas that the Arthur Andersen report had to be compiled.

It has been suggested that PPPs will solve all our problems. Who will invest £1.3 billion in Luas without an underwritten commitment that they will get an annual subsidy for passenger journeys? The Minister has ensured that the streets of Dublin will not be dug up before the next general election, although that seems imminent, and that the Government will not have to finance Luas. She has not put forward any solution to this critical problem, particularly in Dublin city.

This issue goes beyond the direct interests of transport. The gridlock in Dublin is a barrier to economic growth and has resulted in the deterioration of the city's efficiency and people's quality of life. People get up extraordinarily early in the morning and arrive home late at night to avoid the traffic rush hour. The continued growth of the economy, population and housing in Dublin means an increase in required passenger journeys of 10 per cent per annum.

The Minister's legacy will be a constant deferral of a concrete solution to this problem. My motion gives the Minister a solution which is practicable, can be implemented and is easy to understand. A Minister has not had more fortuitous circumstances to deal with this problem. Normally, a Minister in a high spending Department is faced with the problem of being told the Exchequer has no money. That has often been true. I am talking about capital expenditure, current expenditure, economic investment and social expenditure. What is the situation now? In the next eight weeks, an AIB account will receive over £1 billion from the proceeds of the minimal amount of sale of Telecom Éireann shares – even if the Minister seeks only the 20 per cent stake, she will get £1 billion. It is winging its way to the Minister. It does not need any hype or advertising. People will buy these shares.

The Deputy said it would be a flop.

I never said that. Will the Minister produce the record. I have always said there would be a huge demand for shares. On another day I will argue how the Minister succeeded in making a botched job of it with two resignations and the fat cats will walk away with the windfall.

No, they will not; the Deputy's fat cats would.

The Minister will receive £1 billion from Telecom Éireann. The first quarter Exchequer returns show a 13.3 per cent increase in tax receipts while the budget for the year was 7.5 per cent. This will yield a current budget surplus in excess of £1.5 billion. Under the capital and current accounts this extra cash is rolling into the Department of Finance, yet, in those extraordinary favourable circumstances, the Minister has not succeeded in earmarking any major allo cation to the public policy problem of transport capacity.

The £140 million is necessary. Given that Ireland has one of the lowest national debt to GNP ratios this is good economic sense. In the 1980s all the economic forecasters advised cutting public expenditure; now they all speak about the infrastructure deficit, yet the Minister cannot take action.

Watch this space.

This is a problem that can be resolved. We are calling for a further 250 new articulated and double-decker buses. I have been in contact with those directly involved. An articulated bus which can carry about 120 people costs about £300,000, is state of the art and is available. A double-decker bus which can carry about 80 people costs £200,000. That number of new buses, which would cost less than £65 million, should be put in place and can be made disabled-access friendly. The obvious knock-on effect is that extra maintenance depots would be required and a new garage would have to be built, probably in Tallaght. I understand £14 million would cover the cost.

These buses should be put on the quality bus corridors. What will happen, as is the case in Lucan and Malahide, as the QBCs are put in place is that there will be less space for the motorist. It is a source of great angst to motorists who see an empty bus lane with a lack of public transport vehicles in it. I ask that in the main these buses be allocated to the QBCs in train and for which the money has been provided, and for an expansion of the bus fleet without an increase in Dublin Bus's debt. If there is a problem a particular route can be franchised out through sub-contract or competition but it must happen.

As on the DART, and on the tube in London, every bus-stop on a QBC must have real time information; that may be a little speaker which will say the next bus will arrive. Satellite tracking facilities in the bus and a satellite vehicle checking system would ensure the location of every bus was readily identifiable.

I am informed by Dublin Bus that the target of a bus every minute at peak hours and every ten minutes thereafter is achievable on QBCs. This does not require endless reports, consultants, more photo opportunities for the Minister and more waffle. We simply want the buses to be provided. This requires a political decision. The Minister has only to bring memorandum to the Cabinet and get the observations of the Department of Finance. I fail to see how the Minister after two years, with all her political experience, has not put this in place.

I spoke earlier about hard-nosed economists decrying public expenditure and particularly public transport. The DKM report of February 1999, which is a review of transport infrastructure needs, which the Minister should read—

I read everything. I do not lack energy as the Deputy did in his day.

There were no complaints in the Department.

Section 5 on urban transport sets out the requirement based on technical data and assessment of passenger journeys. CIE has submitted a proposal to the Minister for £15 million expenditure for buses in Cork; £5 million for park and ride facilities and for rail and bus in Galway and Limerick cities £16 million and £14 million respectively. The population growth is at its sharpest in the regional and larger urban areas. We are all aware of rural depopulation. This matter is straightforward and needs to be dealt with.

I understand the real time information system would cost £700,000 per QBC route. I am frustrated to the point of almost giving up that the Minister's colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Jacob, will reform the Road Transport Act, 1932, to introduce an equivalent of the Independent Radio and Television Commission, to introduce public service contracts and legalised competition. That is the only way to proceed and we will be obliged by the EU to do it.

Given that the Minister is good at speaking with the chairpersons of State companies, I cannot understand why she will not call in the chairman of CIE and ask him to put in place an integrated ticketing system by August or October 1 If people have to take two buses into town they must get separate tickets. They should be able to get a ticket which would cover any journey in Dublin city by public transport or a monthly ticket.

My colleague, Deputy Olivia Mitchell, will deal with traffic surveillance and management. Mr. Owen Keegan and his colleagues in Dublin Corporation are doing a good job putting the suburban junction high-tech systems, at a cost of £10 million, in place and expanding Operation Freeflow. There is only one Garda helicopter available. The information available needs to be improved as we make the best of the road structure.

In her term of office the Minister has allowed a crisis to evolve into a catastrophe. It requires national political leadership. The Minister's alibi in the Department of Public Enterprise is that the Department of the Environment and Local Government is responsible for roads and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is responsible for the Garda, or her alibi is in the semi-State companies and the local authorities. I attach some of the blame for a lack of political leadership to the Taoiseach. He has shown no interest in the public transport arena other than to intervene in the taxi industry dispute.

The national infrastructure deficit in terms of transport requirements runs to several billion pounds. The £140 million being sought in this motion would not solve all the problems but would deal with the worst and most urgent problem – the urban gridlock.

The Fine Gael proposals are practical, affordable and can be implemented and they should be commended to the House. Failure to respond will result in dire medium-term consequences which are strangling the major cities.

The motion was tabled because we have come to the conclusion that it is time to panic about our public transport infrastructure in the hope of infusing some sense of urgency into the Government to take decisions and implement them. The public may not yet know the extent of the problem and how it is predicted to deteriorate in the coming years. However, they know there is a problem and that the solution is a mass quality public transport system. This would provide not only an alternative to the motor car for those who seek it but a quality system for those who are totally dependent on public transport. The public does not know and cannot understand why the Government does not grasp that fact.

The efforts of Ministers at media events and in making concerned utterances about the state of traffic in Dublin and what could be done about it are beginning to show diminishing returns. The public do not believe them. The evidence of their eyes and their daily experience tells them that congestion is getting worse. I commend the work of Dublin Corporation's Owen Keegan, but the benefits of the small measures which are being taken are being eroded as quickly as they are introduced because of the growth in traffic.

As Deputy Yates said, the problem has been studied to death. Only last weekend I read that the Minister had yet again announced the latest study into integrated ticketing. The Minister knows how many times it has been studied and she is aware of the problem, which is ongoing revenue and capital implications. No amount of studies will change that; it will always be the problem. The solution is to pay the money, order the technology, install it and get on with the job. The time for studies on this and all other aspects of transport is long passed. It is now time for decisions and action.

As any public representative in the Dublin area will say, there is growing anger and intolerance among the public about the deterioration in the quality of life for Dubliners, particularly in urban areas, due to congestion and lack of access. If the public had access to the information the Government has about predictions for the next ten years regarding population changes, land use, economic activity, the number of people going to work and the volume of goods which will be bought and sold, that mood of anger would quickly change to one of panic as they see our economic well-being dissipated through lack of action. It is disturbing that there is no sign of panic on the part of the Government which is in possession of all these facts. There is no sense of urgency or awareness that we are moving from crisis to catastrophe.

Approximately 18 months ago I was ridiculed in the House by Ministers and backbenchers for suggesting that there was a need for a Minister for traffic. I wonder how many Dublin Deputies are now scoffing at that idea and how many less will scoff at it following the European and local elections after being told in the campaign at every door that people want buses and not the traffic problems. There is a need for a Minister to manage the panic because nobody is in charge of the current confusion. Nobody is responsible for ensuring that strategic decisions for the long-term are made and that financial resources are secured. There is nobody to drive and implement these decisions once they are made.

One of the biggest mysteries is the role of the Taoiseach and his stance on this issue. Even if he was not a Dublin Deputy with even a passing interest in the fate of Dublin, as Taoiseach he has primary responsibility for securing the economic future of the country and its well-being. Every report, commentary, consultant and sector is telling us that the biggest single obstacle to sustaining our economic growth is our lack of infrastructure and primarily our transport infrastructure. The Taoiseach has shown no interest in the problem. He has not even given a sign that he is aware of it. His only intervention was to obstruct the efforts of others to solve the problem in the taxi industry.

They could not make up their minds.

That is not true and the Deputy knows it. Only one body was willing to make a decision and when it was made, the Taoiseach intervened. It is time for the Taoiseach to either address the traffic problem in Dublin or to appoint somebody to do so. I do not suggest that this is the first Government to ignore the growing congestion problems or that has failed to invest in transport infrastructure or resource CIE. However, the difference is that it is the first Government which has had the economic freedom to do anything about it. If it does not do anything, it will destroy that economic freedom.

As I and Deputy Yates said, we are moving from crisis to catastrophe. This catastrophe will not manifest itself in one cataclysmic event such as permanent gridlock. That will not happen because people are too rational to allow it. The catastrophe will manifest itself in the slow but lethal strangulation and atrophy of the economic and social life of Dublin and all the promise they hold for this and future generations. The coffers have never been as full and, therefore, there are no financial excuses for inaction. If the will exists, the money is available.

I wish to deal with the specific investment and long-term strategic decisions which are required although the motion refers to action which could be taken in the short-term. It is clear from what we know about the existing unmet passenger demand and the recent publication of the strategic guidelines for Dublin, which map the future population and settlement developments for Dublin over the next ten to 12 years, that a major part of the transport solution lies in new and enhanced commuter rail lines. We have read in the media and heard leaks about endless discussions on the possibilities of new lines and stations, new tunnels in place of old tunnels, expanding track capacity, loop lines, joining existing lines and a new mega rail terminus. There have been endless debates and countless studies, but not one decision has been taken. It is inexcusable given all the studies, reports, consultants and expertise that are available to the Government that it has not even decided what should be done.

Nobody is more aware than the Minister about the long lead in time for major rail construction, including the long planning, design and construction phases. Anything from ten to 20 years is a conservative estimate from decision date to realisation. However, nothing can start until decisions are made. If these crucial decision are not made now, they will be inappropriate and probably redundant by the time they are made and implemented. Long-term strategic decisions must be made and excuses such as waiting for the result of the application for the next round of European funds are no longer justified. We need to begin now. We do not need the EU money. It will be great if it arrives, but we must make our own decisions about our infrastructure. This infrastructure is necessary regardless of whether the money is available. We must get on with planning our future.

We cannot wait to see what other public or private agencies are doing before making these strategic decisions. If a new rail terminus is needed, it should be built. We should not wait on other decisions, such as whether a conference centre is needed. Those type of considerations should not come into decisions about which the Minister needs to be single minded. Even if the long-term strategic decisions were made today, as the Minister knows, they will do nothing to help the problem this year, next year or even the year after. It is forecast that the problem will grow until at least 2011.

As I said previously, the only quick solution is the bus. It is the only mode of transport which can be provided relatively quickly to alleviate demand. If Dublin is to remain viable and sustain its projected employment figures, carrying capacity must be delivered quickly. We will make further suggestions about measures which could be put in place quickly. However, the underlying bus issue must be tackled. There is huge anger among the public at measures to reduce car usage while no alternatives are being put in place. Empty bus lanes are not the answer and the 150 which have been announced and reannounced will not fill them.

The Deputy was there herself.

I was there to hear the Minister announce them several times.

The Deputy's party was there all the time.

There are 150 routes in Dublin, which equals one bus per route. In addition, the removal of buses from existing routes to fill the bus lanes and shore up deficiencies elsewhere is driving people wild in Dublin and particularly in my constituency. A finger in the dyke is not good enough. We need more buses, either with CIE or the competition providing the service. Telling people that complex legislation is required does not wash, We either charge the legislation or provide the resources for CIE to do the job. We cannot have it both ways.

It is totally mystifying to everybody in this city that the private sector can compete with CIE in every other part of the country except Dublin. Dublin Bus would be well able to compete given its expertise and would benefit from the competition. The public would benefit once it is established that there must be a level playing pitch for everybody providing the service and accepted in principle that the service must be subvented. There is no way we can provide a quality public transport service unless the service is subvented.

Buses may not be the sexy answer we crave – perhaps we would love tunnels – but the reality is that they are the only answer in the short-term. They can deliver the carrying capacity we need within the timescale. They are costly measures, but if you say it quickly £140 million does not sound very much. In reality it is very little compared to the cost of doing nothing.

I support this motion. Increased public expenditure is required to upgrade and improve the public transport capacity to alleviate traffic flows. Traffic jams, gridlock and delays are common, not only in Dublin but in many of our towns and cities. I will not dwell on the historical context but in the 1950's and 196O's the Government policy of the day – to a great extent Fianna Fáil administrations – was to close down railway services.

No, Your party did a great deal and I have a history of what was done. It is amazing.

The tragedy is that railway services were closed in many parts, particularly in the north-west. The closure of the Harcourt Street line was the greatest scandal of all.

We need to upgrade and improve our public transport services. It is important to cut back on the number of cars entering Dublin and other cities. Improved train services to Dublin are essential to cater for the commuter traffic from the provincial towns. An increasing number of large housing estates are being built in provincial towns for people who work in Dublin. People are commuting to Dublin from the Minister's town of Athlone, from Tullamore, Portlaoise and Stradbally, which is a relatively small town. This is the case already in many towns near Dublin.

The DART service is excellent. I have travelled on the excellent Arrow service from Kildare and Maynooth. I am annoyed, however, that commuters from Tullamore, Clara, Portlaoise and Portarlington will suffer a deterioration in the train service because of timetable changes. The Minister may not be aware of this but I will forward the details to her. Members of Iarnród Éireann met with members of Offaly County Council but we got little joy from that. By improving the train services from provincial towns we will alleviate gridlock in Dublin. Towns such as Portlaoise, Tullamore and Athlone should have a train service to and from Dublin on the hour every hour. I hope the Minister will accept this motion.

I wish to share my time with my colleague, Deputy Gerry Reynolds.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I commend my colleagues, Deputies Yates and Mitchell, for bringing forward this timely motion. The Minister who will get the money from the sale of Telecom Éireann should be able to use a portion of it to improve the transport infrastructure throughout the country. I note in the casual exchange we had earlier that she announced the reopening of the Mullingar to Athlone railway line.

She said she would reopen it and I hope we can take that as a commitment from the Minister who I hope will announce the good news officially.

Provincial towns are growing at an amazing rate. Towns such as Mullingar, Athlone, Tullamore and Portlaoise have had a huge increase in population, with new housing estates being built for the people commuting to Dublin. I estimate there may be as many at 1,500 to 2,000 people travelling from the greater Mullingar area to Dublin every day. Regretfully, most are travelling by car. The commuter line from Mullingar is carrying about 100 each morning. If that line were improved, many of the passengers travelling by car would use it. In fairness, the Minister has committed £12.5 million for track renewal and £5 million for signalling, but that will not come on-stream until the end of next year. Will the Minister consider the possibility of bringing forward the expenditure, so that the service could come on-stream earlier. A double line from Maynooth to Dublin would improve the service dramatically. Many of the Minister's colleagues in Dublin West would like to see that programme accelerated. It will cost £17 million but there must be a way of bringing it on-stream earlier than three years. This would be a tremendous service for west Dublin. In the past small rural stations such as Killucan and Streete were closed, but with the increasing numbers now living and commuting to Dublin from these areas, the railway line could be reopened at minimal expense, taking people off the roads and improving the environment.

The service on the Dublin-Sligo railway line was raised on many occasions in the House. I compliment the Minister for providing the resources to upgrade the line in the coming years, but work needs to be carried out more quickly. Last week in the local Sligo newspaper, it was reported that rail tracks will be transferred from the Dublin-Cork railway line and the Dublin-Westport railway line, as second-hand welded tracks, to the Longford-Sligo line. There is a lack of confidence in the rail service and if second-hand track were used, it would further erode the confidence of commuters. People ask if the Government is committed to providing a proper rail service from Sligo to Dublin. They believe that if second-hand track is used from Longford to Sligo the standard of service required will not be provided. I have no doubt that people would use the train from Sligo to Dublin if there were a proper service. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm or deny that.

I will answer that point first. I do not know anything about the nature of the line except that the money being expended is for continuous welded track, but I will find out for the Deputy. To return to the beginning of Deputy Yates's colourful and picturesque contribution, I do not have any intention of going to Europe.

I was encouraging the Minister.

Deputy McGrath agrees that I should not go because he does not want a by-election in Westmeath.

I am thinking of the national interest.

I am thinking of my interest. I do not want to go, to me it is a most alien environment in which I have not the slightest interest. Neither do I intend to comport myself in ministerial surroundings befitting my status, or whatever the Deputy said. I do not go for that silliness because I am not interested in being posh.

The Minister still has ambitions to be Taoiseach.

Her friend, the Taoiseach, might keel over.

I am more interested in my job. It was also said that we should have someone who is more tigerish I have never used the phrase "the tiger economy". When Deputy Richard Bruton was Minister and I was in Opposition, he used to drive me mad using that phrase. Too many people are not part of "the tiger economy" so it is a ridiculous idea.

We will not agree to the motion because I do not have £140 million at this point, but I agree with its general thrust, which is that there should be expenditure of the public transport infrastructure. I share the Tánaiste's view, strongly expressed at her recent party conference, that the moneys from the work we are doing in the semi-State sector—

Are we love bombing the Tánaiste today?

No, although Deputy Joe Higgins says I have a mania for it. I hope some of the money raised from the work we are doing in various semi-State companies would go towards public transport. In case a false impression is created – I am tired of telling Deputy Yates this, but he insists on saying it – the money does not go to the Department of Public Enterprise, although my Department and the Department of Finance are currently engaged on Telecom Éireann matters. The money goes to the Department of Finance. The Deputy knows, because I told him, how much is owed over the last 20 years in pension funds and I do not know what the Government is going to contribute from public expenditure.

As Deputy McGrath is my constituency colleague I will reply to him now. He asked about the double railway track from Maynooth and the expenditure on the Mullingar line. That will come between this year and next year because it is part of the funding intended originally for Luas, which I will talk about shortly. I am interested in Killucan railway station and will visit it on Monday week. The Deputy has a penchant for putting his script in the local newspapers and I want my remarks to be there also. I have been invited to Killucan to look at the defunct station. The station building was knocked down – I do not know why, but it was many years ago while Fine Gael was in Government. Also, for the benefit of the Westmeath-Offaly Independent, in 1975 the then Fine Gael-Labour Government closed the Mullingar-Athlone railway line. I will look at this matter, although I do not have a ready answer. Killucan has distinct possibilities and I would be glad to include it in our strategic plan.

Are we all invited to this event?

I have been invited. Perhaps the Deputy knows who is inviting me.

Is it a local election stunt?

Deputy Yates never says what he thinks of public private partnership but clearly he is not in favour of it.

I am in favour.

That is good; I have never heard him talk about it. I am also interested in what he thinks of the study I issued, which indicated that Luas could and should be franchised out by CIE. I am seeking responses and may get one from him.

The recommendations of that study were disappointing.

Does the Deputy not think it should happen?

There was a limited public private partnership element in it.

That is a different matter. I received no response from Deputy Yates about the operation of Luas. I await it and it will be interesting. I never get a response on these matters from the Opposition parties because they are so busy with other matters, which I understand.

I read it in detail and put down a parliamentary question.

I knew the Deputy would read it but I would love to hear her comments. Is she in favour of it?

I am sure she is. I do not hear much talk about Luas anymore. Deputy Yates and I were on television about it.

The Minister advocated it.

He said it would never happen but how wrong he was.

I said it would not happen until 2005.

I am glad to tell him that today, at its reconvened meeting, the Government announced its approval for the purchase of the first Luas light rail trams, which will run on the Tallaght-city centre line.

I thought they were ordered years ago.

I am also glad to announce that there have been no objections from the public to the line. The last day for lodging objections was 1 May.

Has the Minister a figure for the cost for the line?

I will get to that soon. The cost mentioned by the previous Government was a fairytale. The carriages must be ordered early, which they have been, and we are well within the indicative timetable. Judge O'Leary conducted the hearings for the line in Deputy Olivia Mitchell's constituency and is giving time for public perusal of his document, which I will receive soon.

He finished today.

He is a good judge and was a good inspector for the inquiry. I knew him when he was in the Seanad but since then I have not met him, I appointed him by letter. His work is of great value. It is strange that the Opposition has gone off Luas.

Now that it is proceeding, they do not want it. I cannot understand it.

It will not happen in the lifetime of this Government.

We have plenty to say about it but the Minister does not want to hear it.

No, the Opposition does not want it now, it does not want to know about anything that is going ahead; it simply pretends it is not happening, which is very funny.

The DTO made a presentation in the Conrad Hotel, at which Deputy Olivia Mitchell was present. Every one of its recommendations was implemented, but no one mentioned that.

Except the subsidy.

Deputy Yates never mentioned that the plan was accepted and implemented within three months of being produced. How telling that the Opposition has not remarked on this. I also congratulate the Opposition on its wonderful undercover liaison, which is a great wheeze. The motion contains the gist of the report from the DTO, which the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, and I will receive in a few weeks. It is great that Fine Gael is able to divine this.

How does the Minister know that?

I know because I received a summary of the report when I saw the motion. I know how it might have happened and I commend Fine Gael for its skills – perhaps I would call them forensic.

The dogs in the street know what needs to be done.

No, this is the actual wording which I will receive in a few weeks. It is most interesting.

The £70 million in the plan was formerly committed to Luas. Previous Governments demanded that CIE found the money itself but we provided the cash. My colleague, the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, together with the local and regional authorities in the greater Dublin area, commissioned the preparation of the strategic planning guidelines. The Government gave me the go-ahead for costing and feasibility work on a major suburban rail development, taking account of the recommendations of those guidelines. The DTO will shortly present me the plan for 2000-2006. This is a high level of activity.

I consulted the records for the previous four years and it is amazing that action was not taken by successive Governments. CIE was merely told to "find the money". I agree that additional buses must be provided in the short-term. Deputy Pat Carey informs me that, for various reasons, not all of the 12 quality bus corridors are in operation.

They cannot be put into operation because there are not enough buses to use them.

I am informed that the 12 quality bus corridors will be completed by the end of the year 2000. I do not know the cause of this delay but I understand that this matter has been discussed by Dublin Corporation. Perhaps Deputy Mitchell could confirm that.

The infrastructure is in place but there are not enough buses.

The Malahide Road and Lucan bus corridors are already in place and further QBCs at Rathfarnham, Tallaght and north Finglas will be completed this year.

Quality bus corridors are having an impact. On the Lucan QBC, the bus has a 50 per cent market share at Conyngham Road and on the Malahide Road QBC, buses are 30 per cent faster than cars. We need to increase the size of the bus fleet. Deputy Olivia Mitchell was present at the ceremony to hand over the first of the 150 new buses for which the Exchequer provided funding. I approached the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, seeking funding to provide additional buses and he acceded to my request. Provision was made in my Department's Estimate in that regard. I do not believe the Deputies are satisfied with what is provided, they only want what I do not have at present. Since the foundation of the State, a budget has never been introduced in May.

We have never had a crisis of this sort.

The EU is providing £5.5 million towards the cost of acquiring 50 of those buses and the balance, £20 million, will be provided by the Exchequer. The Exchequer will also be responsible for providing funding for the provision of garaging and workshop facilities for the expanding fleet. That point is covered by the motion and I agree with it fully.

In two weeks the DTO will be making recommendations for a substantial upgrading of the bus network in the greater Dublin area. This will build on the DTO's previous short-term action plan and I expect it to recommend a substantial increase in the bus fleet; further development of QBCs; the introduction of a wider range of orbital routes, which will cross existing orbital routes and provide a better web of services and the provision of additional local and feeder services.

I agree fully with the Deputies' comments in respect of certain technical matters. Deputy Olivia Mitchell and I spoke about the ticketing system at Question Time recently. It is necessary for CIE to conclude its deliberations in respect of the integrated ticketing system.

There is a revenue implication which must be taken into account.

I am informed that CIE believes there is a revenue implication. However, with proper forethought in respect of the arrangements to be put in place, I do not believe that this need be the case. The excuse that something involves a revenue implication is often used to scupper a project. I told CIE to put the integrated ticketing system in place to ascertain what might be the outcome. I asked what would be the rev enue implications and I was informed that people will dodge fares. People have dodged fares since I was a child but most people pay their way. I do not believe an integrated ticketing system will have a revenue implication once it is operated in a proper fashion.

The new Xpresso service which I launched recently will continue to be introduced on a phased basis, every three months, for the remainder of the year. I pay tribute to the EU and CIE because, following discussion between the two, co-funding has been provided for accessible buses, a number of which have already come on stream. After next year, all new buses will have to be low-floor, accessible vehicles. This means that everyone, not only those who are physically disabled but also those with temporary impairments, will be able to gain access to buses.

The DTO allocated significant funding to improving traffic control facilities in the Dublin area. I am informed that there is a need for a regional traffic control centre and this, along with proposals to use new technology in improving traffic control, is an aspect will be included in the DTO's revised plan. I hope to receive that plan in two to three weeks time.

I have recognised the advantages which real time passenger information would offer to bus passengers. This system would enable passengers at bus stops to know the expected arrival time of their bus and would include a display in selected bus stop shelters giving a countdown in minutes of the expected arrival time of the bus. The design work is nearing completion and the system will be put into operation later this year, initially on the Lucan QBC.

The strategic planning guidelines place particular emphasis on the development of rail corridors. A full DART service to Greystones and Malahide will be introduced next year, while a partial service to Greystones will commence in the coming months.

What about the station for the Donaghmede and Baldoyle area?

Is the Deputy seeking the provision of a station for that area?

I will endeavour to give due consideration to the Deputy's request.

The station could be situated at Clare Hall.

New stations have been opened, including at Fairview on the DART line and Drumcondra and Kilcock on the Maynooth line. Work has commenced on the development of Barrow Street station, between the Pearse and Lansdowne Road stations, and it is expected to open in 2000.

New park and ride facilities have been completed at Donabate and the car park at Skerries has been substantially extended. Attention is now focusing on improving parking facilities at Greystones, Clontarf Road and Bray. This is being co-financed by the EU and the Exchequer. Additional carriages are required for the DART. The construction of period for these is understandably longer than for buses but the original order of ten DART carriages is due for delivery in September while a further 16 will be delivered in September 2000. These 26 carriages will be used to enhance existing services and to operate six car train sets. They will also be used to cater for the extended DART network to Malahide and Greystones and will increase the DART fleet from 80 to 106 carriages.

Will the new carriages be accessible to people with disabilities?

Yes. From 1 January 2000, all new buses will also be low-floor, accessible vehicles.

A £5 million programme of platform improvements for the DART and suburban rail network has been approved and the platform improvements at DART stations have already commenced. It is expected that this work will be completed by the end of 2000. The Maynooth line is being upgraded with the provision of double track from Clonsilla to Maynooth. A real time passenger information service has been introduced on the DART network.

Following the publication of the strategic planning guidelines, I secured Government approval to carry out costings and feasibility work for a new suburban commuter rail development plan. All the rail elements of the short-term action plan, when implemented, will boost the existing development programme which will see peak hour capacity on the greater Dublin suburban network increase by 60 per cent, or 11,300 passenger train journeys.

The plan comprises two elements. First, there is a short-term programme based on making more intensive use of the existing rail corridors. The second element involves a long-term programme based on certain conceptual suggestions for improving the suburban rail network contained in the strategic planning guidelines. The focus of the short-term programme over the next two to five years will be to make more intensive use of the existing rail network.

It has been proposed that new rail stations could provided at Lucan north, Lucan south and Ashington and that the line between Connolly and Heuston stations should be upgraded. The possibility of developing a new inland rail link to Navan has also been suggested. Deputy John Bruton, leader of Fine Gael, put forward extensive questions about a possible rail line to Navan.

It will be a long time arriving.

I believe he is making such inquiries because he never took action while in office in that regard. Why did Deputy John Bruton not take such action?

He is interested in the development of a rail line to Dunboyne.

That is fair enough. Proposals also exist in respect of the possible separation of long distance and commuter rail traffic through the construction of by-pass rail lines. The options also include enhancement of rail service to the development centres identified by the strategic planning guidelines – phase one, namely, Drogheda, Naas, Newbridge, Kilcullen, Wicklow and Navan and under phase two, Athy, Arklow, Kildare and Monasterevin. There will also be more sophisticated signalling technology to increase track capacity. We asked CIE to arrange to have this work done without delay.

It is conceptual. It will be at least a decade before the work is done.

It will not be, because the money must be spent in the next few years. The potential for the development of the suburban rail system in Cork is also to be considered. Measures being considered include the upgrading of service on the Mallow-Cork-Cobh lines and possibly reopening the Middleton line, depending on plans for development in the line catchment.

I spoke about Luas and mentioned the work being carried out by Mr. Justice Seán O'Leary.

We have not heard much about the tunnel. What were the findings of the geology report?

They did not find anything yet.

They have not looked at it.

They are going ahead.

They are digging for oil.

The Deputy is annoyed because Luas will go ahead.

We will have to wear our seatbelts when they dig the roads around Stephen's Green.

The Deputy will have to cope with that.

We will have a rollercoaster ride with flash lamps. The Minister should do the decent thing.

The Deputy is a hoot. He said Luas would never go ahead and now it is going ahead.

There is no money for Luas. The Department of Finance is not committed to it.

Is that so. How interesting.

I am talking about Mr. Tutty and others. They will very quickly tell the Minister that.

I am sure the Deputy knows all about them. I heard he was overawed by them.

I was well able to get money from them.

Let us have order in the debate.

I heard the Deputy agreed with whatever they said.

The Minister should look over the Estimates I got.

The Deputy was the epitomy of a good Minister because he obeyed the Department of Finance.

Initial indications are that a system based on electronic smart card technology could be introduced on a phased basis in Dublin and detailed evaluation of this option is currently being undertaken. I disagree with the claim that the introduction of integrated ticketing could have significant capital cost and revenue implications. My Department was told by CIE that integrated ticketing would have revenue implications. I cannot see how it could. I believe it would have terrific implications for the consumer who would have access to a decent integrated system.

The public transport components of the other major urban areas of Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford will also be considered in the preparation of the National Development Plan. I asked CIE to submit investment reviews of those cities. The primary emphasis of the reviews was on improvements to the bus service through investment in fleet and the introduction of bus priority measures. The Cork review also referred to the development of the suburban rail network, which I mentioned earlier.

As I pointed out in the House recently, the Government has committed £70 million in the Estimates this year alone to making the renaissance of public transport a reality. We are working to ensure that the public transport system not only has the physical capacity to meet transport demand but is capable of meeting the wider needs of its customers. It must be frequent and reliable, giving good value for money and be safe and customer focused.

While a great deal was achieved in recent years, much more remains to be done. Identifying the capacity requirements and securing the funding necessary is only part of what has to be undertaken. Substantial amounts of money need to be invested and we need to ensure we are getting benefit from those investments.

CIE and the DTO are in the process of finalising their action plans for the years to 2006. Their work, which I hope to receive in a fortnight, is expected to confirm our belief that there is an enormous challenge facing transport planners and operators in meeting the anticipated growth.

The Government can be relied on to provide a properly planned and co-ordinated response to the transport challenges in our major urban areas. We will set out a clear strategy to address those problems in the forthcoming National Development Plan, when we have received and considered the detailed proposals of the DTO.

Of all of the agencies under my remit and business in my Department, public transport is the issue that is the most important for the future. This issue is not only of consideration to Dublin people, even though four of the Members present come from Dublin and the bulk of people who need a daily public transport system come from the Dublin region.

The opening up of defunct railway stations in the towns I mentioned would facilitate much more commuter traffic to and from Dublin. Deputy McGrath talked about Mullingar. A great number of commuters travel from Athlone to Dublin every morning and return to Athlone in the evening. It is a long journey, particularly for young women, many of whom have young families. They find it tough commuting to work in Dublin, but that is a debate for another day.

Towns throughout the country that were bypassed can now be given new life. Towns, like Monasterevin, where only a shell of the railway station remains, are on commuter lines. In the plans under preparation, why not give the people of Monasterevin, Athy, Lucan north and south and other towns on rail lines, which are not used because there is no halting facility, the chance to avail of the rail service that passes through their towns?

We spoke earlier about who closed various lines down through the years. We all fell in love with trains in the last century, then we all fell out of love with them and in love with cars. Every family wanted a car and then two cars. Cars became a status symbol. Trains were under utilised and in many cases the tracks were left to rot. There is only continuous welded track on the Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Galway lines. We have embarked on a nationwide job to extend continuous welded track thoughout the country. A total of £600 million is to be spent on this work, £88 million is to be spent on level crossings, £40 million on bridges and fences and £20 million on signalling. That money will be spent first on developing the public transport infrastructure and then on carriages, integrated ticketing, suburban rail lines and the provision of extra buses. As Deputy Yates said, this represents a major investment. A major investment in public infrastructure must be undertaken by the Government. We have made a start by allocating £70 million to it this year and more will have to be spent by future Governments.

I dealt with Dublin Bus. Train travel is environmentally friendly and train travel here is very safe compared to other European countries. It is a relaxing way to travel.

I spent last Monday on a train. I travelled from Tralee. We did not think the journey would have taken all day.

The Deputy is aware continuous welded track will be extended to Tralee.

It took an hour to get from Tralee to Mallow.

I met a deputation recently and told them that work would be carried out, but all the work cannot be done immediately. Did many of the delegates travel down and back by train?

We were thinking of having a conference on the train the next time.

That would be fun, but other passengers would not be able to use the train while the Deputies dealt with party business. I am sure the Ceann Comhairle thinks I am being frivolous, but I am not. We are having a conversation about travelling by train, which is part of what this debate is about.

Is the Minister going to move her amendment?

We did not get a copy of it. All we have is the same old stuff. It is a reheat of what we got last month.

The Deputy is very heated.

We have a reheating of the same information.

(Interruptions.)

I move amendment No. 1

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann—

(a) welcomes the decisive response of the Government to the recommendations of the Dublin Transport Office's short-term action plan;

(b) notes with satisfaction the progress which is being made in implementing the action plan, particularly the purchase of 150 extra buses and DART/suburban rail rolling stock, the implementation of the quality bus corridors and the upgrading of the suburban rail network;

(c) welcomes the provision for the first time of Exchequer capital funding to implement the bus and rail measures in the action plan;

(d) supports the Government in its commitment and determination to undertake further radical improvements to transport systems in the greater Dublin area and to provide for investment in urban public transport in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford;

(e) welcomes the recent Government decision to urgently commission costing and feasibility studies on short and medium-term suburban rail development programmes for Dublin and Cork;

(f) notes that the Dublin Transport Office is nearing completion of a comprehensive transport, investment and traffic management programme for the period 2000-2006, which will be considered by the Government in its preparation of the National Development Plan.".

I must leave now to attend an appointment. I am sure it will provide another photo opportunity, as Deputy Yates said. I hope he is not too upset.

I wish to share to my time with Deputies Broughan and Rabbitte.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

We must accept that public transport will never make a profit. There is no point in seeking to shoehorn either the railway system or the Dublin bus system into a state where it will be in the black on the balance sheet. There will always be a need for subvention of public transport.

The Minister referred to falling in and out of love with rail in the 1950s and 1960s. A political decision was taken to save money on the rail sys tem. That is why there is such a dilapidated system now with large parts of the State having no rail service at all. When I go to County Donegal, I complain that there is not a single railway line running to that county. The one county on this island which actually needs a rail link does not have one and, as far as I know, there is none planned. Perhaps with the Good Friday Agreement there may eventually be a line to County Donegal through Northern Ireland. It is criminal, however, that the county has no rail link with the rest of the country and there are no plans for one.

I want to concentrate on transport in the Dublin area. That is where I live and it is the area I represent. Addressing the issue of rail and bus travel for the country as a whole is important if we are to benefit from economic growth. We should use the resources we have now to put the infrastructure in place, not to give it all to the bankers by paying off the third lowest national debt in the European Union. It is essential to use the resources we have now to put in place a transport infrastructure which will ensure we can continue to benefit from the capacity for the economy to grow.

We have been talking about a light rail system for Dublin for ten years but we have yet to see a metre of rail laid or a single tram acquired. It is not surprising that scepticism among the people of the city and county has increased, with many doubting that the project will ever go ahead. The bumbling delays, rejections of consultants' reports and U-turns which have been such a feature of this Government's handling of the issue have simply increased public scepticism, against the background of a traffic problem of such magnitude that it is no exaggeration to say that the city and country are in danger of grinding to a halt. That can be seen by moving five minutes from this House at any time of the day.

A year after the Government decision to reject the consultant's report favouring the overground option for Luas, we still do not know if it will be technically feasible to put an underground section in place. Even if all targets are met, it will still be five years before there is any operational light rail system in the city. It is clear that we cannot allow the traffic situation to continue to deteriorate until light rail is available. Urgent remedial action is required.

While the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke dithered, week by week the situation grew worse. Traffic conditions which were once the norm for an hour at peak time in the mornings and evenings are now being experienced throughout the day. Even relatively short journeys at peak time now take on epic proportions.

The key to dealing with the traffic problems in the short-term rests with the proper development of the bus service. Bus services will remain the only transport option for the vast majority of Dublin people for the foreseeable future. Con trary to the public perception, the level of subvention for Dublin Bus, at 3.8p per passenger journey, remains one of the lowest for any similar sized city in Europe. Much of the bus fleet is clapped out, mechanically unreliable and unpleasant to travel on. Just £30 million, less than the cost of one underground station, would allow Dublin Bus to acquire 175 additional buses which would make a great difference to the quality of public transport in the city and county.

It is a disgrace that the commitment made by Fianna Fáil to ensure the provision of wheelchair accessible buses in the city has been virtually abandoned. It is allowing Dublin Bus to purchase new buses which will not be accessible. That is a slap in the face to those who require public transport more than anyone else. Public transport includes taxis and hackneys. The number of taxis which are wheelchair accessible is minuscule and there are questions about their availability to people who require them when they require them. There needs to be a rededication to the commitment to ensure that the bus fleet we provide is accessible to people with disabilities.

The combination of poor service, high fares and chronic traffic problems is forcing more people away from public transport and into their cars. This worsens the traffic problem, slows down the buses and is of particular inconvenience to those who have no alternative but to use public transport. The vicious circle must be broken.

The pricing and ticketing policy of Dublin Bus must be examined as an integral part of any solution to Dublin's traffic problem. It is not good enough for the Minister to wash her hands of the issue every time I table a question on it, saying that ticketing and pricing are matters for Dublin Bus. The social and economic costs of crawling traffic and congested streets are well known. The solution requires an efficient public transport system with economic fares. This cannot be provided on the level of subvention currently provided to Dublin Bus, which appears to be whatever is left after subventions to rail and other services. That is not a proper way to develop the bus service.

New car registrations in Dublin reached a record level last year of 62,000. The city cannot continue to absorb this level of new car registration. We must face the prospect of disincentives which will discourage people from bringing cars into the city centre. This can only be done when there is a reliable, efficient and economic public transport system. Unless we set about ensuring this now – not waiting for Luas – the situation will continue to deteriorate.

I support the motion. The sum sought – £140 million – is modest. I looked at the public capital programmes as far back as 1990 and it is striking how little money the State put into public transport and traffic management. The Dublin region was deliberately starved by the major parties of the resources it needed to create a proper public transport system.

Given the performance of the Government, I do not hold out much hope that the funding necessary to implement the recommendations of the recent report on the railway safety programme and track renewal will be forthcoming. As my colleague, Deputy De Rossa, has done, if one examines the major projects we have debated one will see we have talked about a Metro system for Dublin since 1971, when CIE management came up with a workable programme to implement a radial city network of public rail transport. Many of the trendy voices in the 1980s, Vincent Browne in particular, criticised this project, and the DART project, without having any information on cost benefit, etc. The DART has brought enormous benefit to both the northside and the southside and an overwhelming case can be made for its extension to the entire city. The failure to proceed with the completion of the M50, the failure to build Luas and the total neglect of areas in the northside and the west of the city in relation to traffic management has left us in the sorry state in which we now find ourselves.

The constant division of responsibilities at national and local level has not helped matters. In the previous Government it was the Taoiseach and the Minister for the Environment who took the fundamental decision about Operation Freeflow, not the city manager or the assistant city manager for traffic. We have had the Dublin Transport Initiative, the Dublin Transportation Office and now the Director of Traffic, but there has not been a clear line of command over that time. I hope that problem has been rectified to some extent by the establishment of the Office of the Director of Traffic.

I commend the Director of Traffic on some of the initiatives he has taken, including the maintenance of Operation Freeflow, the success of clamping, which is painful for many drivers, the vast increase of funding from parking flowing into the city coffers, the development of environmental traffic cells to make the city centre more pedestrian and cyclist friendly, and the radial cycle network which the Labour Party proposed ten years ago. All these measures deserve much credit.

Many of us living on the northside are unhappy with the implementation by the Director of Traffic of several of the projects, in particular the Malahide quality bus route which many people believe did not involve sufficient consultation with local interests. Not only does the project not work on certain stretches of the route, it is dangerous. We have been promised traffic safety audits by the Director of Traffic for the past six or nine months but so far he has failed to publish even one. There appears to be a question to answer in relation to the implementation of that project. The director developed two of these busways without securing from Government the necessary increases in the number of buses, as called for this evening by our Fine Gael colleagues. I hope this necessary infrastructure is brought forward as soon as possible, particularly in relation to the provision of buses.

Many of the ideas in the motion before the House are commendable. I remember looking at the real time schedule at bus stops in France ten years ago. It was helpful to know the bus was on the way. Integrated ticketing, reverse and contraflow and the other measures Deputy Yates proposes are commendable and we should support them.

Yesterday the Director of Traffic launched his own radio station which I understand will give us daily 12-hour reports on traffic throughout Dublin, with music during the night hours. While that is generally welcome he will have to ensure that the traffic moves in the first place. It is not difficult to know where the backlog is but we need to know exactly what is happening in terms of the traffic.

The director recently approved the erection of 75 ft. camera towers throughout the city without planning permission. I asked the architect of the millennium monument for Dublin if he was inspired by those edifices but apparently he was not. These towers appear to give the Director of Traffic a superb view of what is happening across the city.

I commend the motion. I do not see Minister O'Rourke and Minister Dempsey delivering on the short-term action plan but if they do not, the result will be disastrous for the citizens of Dublin over the next four or five years.

I, too, support the Fine Gael motion on transport. Transport is not my area of expertise but I want to articulate the deep sense of grievance felt by the long-suffering commuters in my constituency. Every morning on AA Roadwatch there is a special report on the difficulties at Knocklyon, Clondalkin, the Naas Road—

Even I know of the Firhouse Road from AA Roadwatch.

—and, as Deputy Yates said, the Firhouse Road in particular. After housing, the transport crisis is now arguably the biggest problem confronting the Government. No other Minister, apart from Minister O'Rourke, would get away with it. There does not seem to be any emergency measures being contemplated by the Minister to deal with the problem that is affecting daily commuters from most parts of Dublin but in particular from the part of Dublin to which I refer.

We know the money is available. The point has been well made that in terms of a projected budget surplus of almost £1,500 million, it is no longer a question of us being unable to afford to deal with this question. What is missing is the political will and it seems we cannot afford not to deal with it because, in terms of the overall performance of the economy, this is now a barrier to continued progress. That is the seriousness of the matter.

Every morning people are struggling to get to work from the Firhouse and Knocklyon areas and from parts of Tallaght and Clondalkin they endure misery, yet there is no sign from the Government that it is a crisis. The Minister missed the boat on Luas.

She sank the boat.

She sank the boat on Luas. I understand Luas in Irish means speed; it certainly does not mean speed in so far as Minister O'Rourke is concerned. We lost the European funds to support the Luas project. The Minister reopened the entire project at a time when the matters she wanted to examine had already been thoroughly examined, and now people are told that the Luas project will come in its own good time. That is not good enough in terms of the difficulties being experienced by people trying to get to and from work in the present circumstances.

It is not good enough for the Minister to come in here and say it is a matter for Dublin Bus. That is the downside of creating quangos because the Minister of the day will say it is a management or an operational issue and that we better talk to Dublin Bus. I have been talking to Dublin Bus. For example, will the Minister of State, Deputy Brennan, who is now in the House, tell us about the new estates he used to represent off the Ballycullen Road? They are desperate for any form of public transport. The No. 49 bus does not go as far as those estates. A creative managerial decision by Dublin Bus would provide them with a minimal public transport system. More people are being invited to use their cars and every morning the roads are congested.

The argument about the third bridge across the Dodder is a major one but it is one that is now behind us. Obviously, those on one side of the river take a particular view but if the traffic is due to go through the residential areas on the other side, the people in those areas will have a different view. The question now is: how quickly can the Government provide the money to build that bridge quickly?

Similarly, why do the plans for Luas not cross the Tallaght bypass to Old Bawn and Killinarden? That is imperative because that is where the population is concentrated.

Debate adjourned.
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