Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 May 1999

Vol. 504 No. 3

Architectural Heritage (National Inventory) and Historic Monuments (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1998 [ Seanad ] : Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Perry

I thank the Minister for the news on the use of Ballymote Castle for the millennium celebrations.

The Bill which defines "architectural heritage" imposes a clear obligation on local authorities to draw up lists of buildings to be protected because of their architectural, historical, archaeological, artistic, scientific, social or technical interest. The protection of historic buildings is a discretionary function. This is also taken to mean that only the front wall of a building is protected; the interior may be altered or demolished unless specifically listed for preservation. This Bill extends protection to the whole structure including its interior and specifies that all works which affect its character will require planning permission. However, local authorities will have to spell out the scope of such works in each case. Given that the planners may not have dealt with this type of work previously, local authorities will need people with special expertise.

Under the provisions of the Bill, local authorities are being given wide powers, including that of compulsory purchase where necesssary, to ensure heritage buildings are protected. Owners of protected buildings are advised to ensure such buildings do not become endangered. They can seek financial assistance under a new grant aid scheme for protected buildings. This scheme will commence next year and will have funding of approximately £4 million. What percentage of the funds will be allocated to each county? How can those funds be acquired? Will grants be made available to owner-occupiers where the cost of conservation works would be considerably higher? It is important that information on how to avail of that fund should be in the public domain. The scheme will be administered by the local authorities which will appoint conservation officers to enable them carry out their functions. There is a grey area which needs to be developed. It is stated that local authorities will be able to draw on the resources of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. Will the Minister clarify how that will happen?

The Minister has indicated that the national inventory of architectural heritage is to be completed within 12 years. It seems unreasonable that it should take 12 years. In issuing guidelines on the approach to be adopted throughout the State, it is important that, unlike the judicial system where different rules may apply in one county or court, there is consistency from one local authority to the next. Buildings may now be designated for protection at any time independently of the five year review period for local authority development plans. It is important that under the five year county council development plans all buildings listed will automatically become protected buildings. Local authorities will have the power to require works to be undertaken to restore the character of protected building, the removal of inappropriate windows, etc., but will have to pay for such works when alterations are not authorised. Many buildings, such as Ballymote Castle, have new windows which are totally out of character. Planners should have a say on how money is spent on that structure.

The Bill gives statutory recognition to conservation areas to protect townscapes and streetscapes. In the past the ESB had underground cabling. Perhaps funds could be provided for the maintenance of all the old architectural structures in towns. People arriving in a small town or village notice its unique character. Streetscapes and townscapes are important. There may be some fine architectural buildings in a run-down area. The Border counties have availed of cross-Border funding under the town and village renewal scheme. Sligo County Council has operated that scheme very successfully in small villages. The improvements works carried out with this funding to footpaths, paving and lighting have uplifted the whole community. If we could match the funding from the IFI and Programme for National Recovery it could be used very effectively in the Border counties. In Northern Ireland the town and village centres have been nicely landscaped.

The Irish Architectural Archive was founded in 1976 to collect and preserve the records of Ireland's architectural heritage and to make those records available to those who wish to visit them. We owe those people a huge debt of gratitude. The collection housed by the archive comprises the largest body of historic architectural records in Ireland and as such constitutes a vital national culture resource. It includes the most significant body of historic Irish architectural drawings in the world with in excess of 80,000 drawings ranging from the late 17th to the late 20th century. Also housed in the archive are over 300,000 photographs making this one of the largest collections of photographs in Ireland and an extensive reference library with in excess of 11,000 items of printed matter. The Irish Architectural Archive contains material, primary or secondary, on every important Irish building, period or style and the most significant buildings in the 32 counties. We are extraordinarily lucky to have that material in the Irish Architectural Archive which I have visited at 73 Merrion Square.

Thousands of visits are made to the archive annually by people in search of information. It has produced a guideline of those involved in conservation and restoration and recommends craftsmen whom people can employ. Local authorities should have access to its reference books. This would help them to develop the huge stock of listed buildings on file. Given that the archive in Merrion Square has a huge record of all listed buildings and that it is expected to take 12 years to provide a full record of the architectural heri tage, perhaps following consultation with the archive the 12 year period could be reduced.

Mr. Deasy

In eight minutes Deputy Perry dealt with a wide range of issues in the Bill and more. Much can be done in this area, and I appreciate that a certain amount of work has been done in recent years regarding our heritage and the preservation of historic buildings and monuments.

We are at a severe disadvantage because we do not have as much ancient infrastructure as Britain, France and Germany in terms of castles and old dwellings which were lived in for centuries. Many of our great homes, castles and monuments were destroyed during various periods. Some of them are now derelict while others have been rebuilt. Occasionally one is lived in following refurbishment to make it habitable.

In the main, Ireland's disadvantage stems from the fact that our ancestors were loath to record the circumstances under which they lived. Many of us cannot go back any further than our grandparents when it comes to recording historical events because the circumstances were so awful that they did not want anybody to know about it subsequently. Our knowledge is severely limited as a result and anything the Heritage Council can do to revive the situation as it was up to 200 years ago is welcome.

We have some idea of what happened after the Famine, although many of us cannot go back further than our grandparents which only brings us to the beginning of this century. There is a dearth of information and knowledge about the true situation before the Famine and this makes it difficult to ascertain the exact position.

I raised with the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, and other Ministers, the old Folklore Commission which operated in the 1920s and 1930s when the State was set up. Governments were sufficiently enlightened to send out teams of investigators who interviewed the oldest people in various rural areas throughout the country. The information gleaned from those interviews still exists in archives in Dublin and I understand it has never been released. If it was released, I am not aware of the degree to which it was made known to the public.

A man in his eighties who was interviewed in 1925 could go back to the Famine. There must be a vast wealth of knowledge in the archives in University College, Dublin, or wherever they are located. The findings and reports of the Folklore Commission would be of tremendous interest if they were released. They would also need to be publicised but I do not know how that would be done. The records would be of enormous interest to school children, although they would have to be of a certain age to appreciate what was involved. For example, there is no point giving the information to toddlers.

There is an inhibition in our history. People buried the past because it was so unpalatable. However, we must make the best of what is available. The material in the folklore archives is an example of what could be done. Nobody knows the contents of the investigations which were carried out but I understand they went on until the 1950s. I knew an old man who was interviewed. The practice appears to have died out during the 1950s but it went on for 25 or 30 years and it is a pity we cannot benefit from the results.

Making information about the past available from reputable sources such as that is a major difficulty. We probably should make more use of county councils, town commissioners and library committees in spreading the information among the public. A statutory mechanism should be established where the information available in Dublin and various museums and libraries throughout the country in the form of old newspapers etc is dispensed. It is no good having the information unless it is imparted to people who can benefit from it. There is a great breakdown in that regard and it worries me that the story is not being told. As matters stand, structures under which the information could be provided do not exist.

I ask the Minister to take an initiative to ensure a mechanism is set up where information can be imparted to the public. It is not a major custom in Ireland for people to go into a library and forage around to try to uncover material. Many libraries do not have the resources to enable that, although some of the modern libraries have tremendous facilities where it can be done. People should be encouraged to do it, but leaders in the community, such as councillors and curators, are needed to get people interested.

Dr. Julian Walton, who contributes on the local radio station in Waterford, WLR, must be one of the foremost experts on local history. He does an item every day called "On This Day" where he recounts a famous event which occurred perhaps 80 or 200 years previously in relation to a local incident. The item is hugely popular and there would be a tremendous appetite for this type of education and information if there were people such as Dr. Walton to impart it. Everybody in the area listens to the item which is of immense interest. I do not know if there are comparable items on other local or national radio stations. However, the Minister and her officials would be most interested in the way Dr. Walton presents the items. He makes events 200 or 300 years ago seem alive.

The crux of the matter is finding methods to provide information. Local radio stations are great, but councils, whose functions appear to have dwindled and been taken over by county and city managers and public servants, should have a role. Councils have a civic spirit and that is why they exist. The energies of councils should be utilised through library and vocational committees or the council itself.

A great activity in recent years has been the work done by county councils and local authorities in conjunction with FÁS in the cleaning up and renovation of graveyards. It appears to be a morbid subject and visiting a graveyard which is covered with weeds, briars and nettles is not entertaining or advisable. Some graveyards are a state of the art archeological record. Old churches are sometimes sited near graveyards and one can visualise the true situation during the penal days as well as reading the history of the parish from the inscriptions This is a tremendous achievement and shows what can be done. However, much work remains to be done.

Deputy Perry referred to streetscapes. A local community can establish the shops and the families that lived in the town a hundred years ago. This work is being done and we should encourage it, as it gives us a great insight into how our forefathers lived.

We are not doing enough to preserve simple things, for example, mass paths. I live near a very ancient graveyard and an old farmer in the locality pointed out two borreens which were mass paths in the old days but which I would have thought were not of great benefit to anybody. These mass paths would probably date from 300 to 400 years and people would use these paths to get to the graveyard and the ancient church in the centre of it. These mass paths are covered in briars and there is now a stream where once there was a path. These sites should be identified and recorded. In the American wild west they have gone to great lengths to define and retain the old pony express paths that existed between the west and east coast. They have been preserved as they were 150 years ago. We seem to ignore the remains of our heritage.

I am sure there are roads called the "New Line" in every county. There are at least three such roads in County Waterford. Those roads are quite modern and I do not know where the original roads were. I do not know anybody locally who knows where the original roads were. By mapping out the old mass paths and the route of the ancient roads we would gain a greater insight into our heritage. Heritage is not just about bricks and mortar but includes roadways, pathways, bridges and so on. There are some fantastic old bridges and instead of demolishing them we could erect the modern bridge in parallel with it. There is a very awkward bridge for road users near Clonmel called Sir Thomas's bridge. I am sure it is at least 200 years old and is unique. It should be retained when the new bridge is built.

I hate to think of the damage done to our heritage by bulldozers and JCBs. How many developers will stop work and report they have come across an historical monument or an artefact of archeological importance. Developers will loose a mint of money if their work is held up. I do not know if there are means of compensating people in those situations or if penalties are imposed on people who destroy monuments in the course of construction work. There may be penalties but I have heard of a case where it was imposed. Mr. Webb and his son were out searching with metal detectors when they found the Derrynaflan Chalice. They were almost prosecuted, but it would have never been found if they had not located it. They have to be given credit for handing up the chalice. I think treasures are being destroyed every day of the week but nothing is done about it. If this were to happen in England, culprits would feel the rigours of the law. We do not have the staff resources to check out what is happening. It is a national shortcoming that we are negligent in that regard. We are very mercenary in ways. Now that we have more wealth we are inclined to get our priorities wrong. One of our priorities should be to preserve our heritage.

An old limekiln seems insignificant but these lovely structures show real craftsmanship and are works of art, however, I see them being bulldozed every few weeks when they get in the way of building work or land reclamation. This should not be allowed happen.

The old lioss, the circular formations within which people lived thousands of years ago, up to six millennia ago, have been allowed to disappear.

It is a disgrace that Lismore Castle in County Waterford is not open to the public. If it were within 40 or 50 miles of Dublin it would be open to the public.

This magnificent structure dating back 700 – 800 years has been occupied over most of that period by the Duke of Devonshire and his family. About one third of the castle is habitable. If the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands and the owners were to liaise with each other, a scheme could be devised to have the other two-thirds renovated and open to the public for viewing.

Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands (Miss de Valera)

I thank the Deputies for their contributions, which I found enlightening, interesting and helpful. It was very positive that in both Houses the protection of our architectural heritage went beyond party politics. A number of issues repeatedly came to the fore in the debate. Deputy Kenny, like many other Deputies, mentioned the question of resources. I am the first to say that the £800,000 for my Department and the £4 million through the local authorities in the legislation from the Department of the Environment and Local Government is not enough, it is only the beginning. I look to Members of this House to support further funding for this, and some have already offered their support. We must do our utmost to obtain further funding to protect our heritage. Every county has an opportunity to see how its heritage can be conserved and protected and the richness of the heritage poses the problem of funding. All would appreciate that the Bill establishes the principle of such funding and we will be trying our level best to increase the money already available.

The timescale for the inventory was raised by many Deputies. Some people asked why it would take 12 years, because a lot of damage could be done in that time. I accept that, but without this legislation to establish a national inventory we would wait between 25 and 30 years to have the work carried out. I have not pulled that figure out of the air, it is a recognised fact. There are one million structures of architectural heritage significance to be put on the inventory, and one can imagine how much work that will involve. It will also mean additional personnel will be required and that has been built into the package we have been discussing.

Deputy Kenny also mentioned the work done by the NIAH to date. Thus far, the County Clare survey has been published in draft form, field work has been done in another six counties, 26 interim county surveys are to be completed within three years and information is being given to local authorities as soon as it becomes available. Since I came to office nine final town surveys have been published, together with 12 in draft form. The work is ongoing and there is a lot to be done.

As to staff resources, the existing technical staff of the NIAH consists of one permanent member of staff and four and a half contract staff. My aim is to have ten technical staff, with sufficient administrative back-up, within one year. The recruitment of staff has already been initiated through the Civil Service Commission. Redeployment of staff within the Civil Service may occur. Finance will be available to contract work out to universities, local authorities and others.

Co-ordination with local authorities is of extreme importance, which is why we have provided that the grant scheme will go through the local authorities. They will have responsibility for disbursing the money in their areas. In order to ensure the work is of the highest possible quality there will be national guidance. One of the primary bodies giving such guidance and specific information and expertise will be my Department. The sum of £800,000, mentioned already, will go towards this purpose and the other Bill, moved by my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, has funding also.

Planning applications relating to listed buildings will be subject to the planning laws in the usual way. Where listed buildings are concerned, the Department will be asked for its observations and will have direct input in giving the information.

I concur with the remarks of Deputy Deenihan and Deputy Deasy about FÁS workers. They have done a tremendous amount of work. Not only can the scheme do that, it provides this generation with an opportunity to learn those skills and crafts and keep them in circulation. I look forward to greater communication and co-ordination between Dúchas and FÁS.

Deputy Deenihan referred to heritage buildings which might be at risk. The allocation to these buildings is a matter for the National Heritage Council, which is an independent body, although it comes under the aegis of my Department. The Minister of the day provides the council's allocation and since I came into office I am glad that I have been able to increase it. I thank the council's members who have put in such a tremendous amount of work on our behalf to ensure we conserve as much as possible, given the resources on hand.

Deputy O'Shea mentioned the loss of our interior heritage, a matter raised often in the Seanad debate. Sadly, many interiors have been destroyed or have deteriorated over the years, although facades may have been retained in some cases. This issue has been addressed in the Bill because we are well aware of the importance of the interior and the context of the heritage building.

Both Deputy O'Shea and Deputy Deasy mentioned Lismore Castle and we know the great heritage of that building. The only direct financial assistance which may apply to that castle would be through the local authority grant scheme which will come into operation on foot of these Bills. Other possible avenues are the National Heritage Council and the tax relief scheme, under which a stately home is allowed open to the public for a certain number of days per year.

Deputy O'Shea also referred to the balance between access to and preservation and conservation of our heritage, and the privacy of those who live in heritage buildings which are also private dwellings. The legislation stipulates that consent is required in order to gain access to such buildings. In the absence of consent, the authorised officers may apply to the District Court for a warrant and they must satisfy the court that access to the dwelling is required for the specific purpose of the national inventory.

When drafting the Bill we gave careful consideration to the publication of information, a matter which was also raised in the Seanad, and we decided that it is the responsibility of the Minister of the day to exercise his or her discretion in that regard while taking account of security issues. It is a question of trying to achieve a fair balance between granting access to such information about our heritage while ensuring that the rights of those occupying private dwellings are recognised.

With regard to occupiers' liability, a number of years ago Deputy Deenihan, while in Opposition, introduced a Bill dealing with that matter. I recall taking part in the debate on that legislation and concurring with many of the points he raised. Since then, the position in respect of occupiers' liability has improved and we have addressed many of the issues which required attention. The Bill before the House will not alter or amend the legal provisions governing occupiers' liability.

I wish to refer to a number of issues about which Deputy Michael Kitt was concerned. The Deputy did tremendous work on a project to develop a marina on the River Suck at Ballinasloe. He was committed to the project from the outset and his efforts are finally coming to fruition. I wish everyone involved with the project, particularly Deputy Kitt, well.

Like other Members, Deputy Kitt referred to the financial elements of the Bill. He placed on record the fact that these should merely be seen as a beginning. He also emphasised the significance of the work carried out by local authorities. It is important to take this opportunity – Members representing constituencies outside Dublin will be particularly sensitive to this – to state that it is the responsibility of people to express an interest in and take ownership of the heritage in their areas rather than leaving it to authorities in the capital city to decide the manner in which these issues should be addressed. The financial proposal contained in this package is important because it establishes the fact that the grant system will be put in place at local authority level.

Deputy Kitt also raised the issue of signage. My Department is responsible for the signage relating to historic properties owned by the State or those in State care. The Tourist Board and local authorities have similar functions and it is important that we adopt a co-ordinated approach in this area because we must cater not only for the needs of those interested in local architectural heritage, monuments and buildings but also for those of tourists.

Deputy Donal Carey referred to the 12 year timescale. Given the additional financial and staffing resources being made available to the NIAH, the time it would take in normal circumstances to carry out the national inventory and take note of the many issues which must be addressed as quickly as possible in order to conserve our heritage, can now be greatly shortened. I agree with the Deputy's comments on funding and I look forward to his support and that of other Members in attempting to secure additional funds.

Deputy Carey also referred to the situation at Ennis Friary. This is an issue of interest not only to Deputy Carey and me but also to others who are interested in architectural heritage. One of the groups actively pursuing this matter and a number of local people have been in contact with me in respect of plans for Ennis Friary. It is important that these people should be consulted about any plans put forward.

Deputy Perry referred to the consistency and co-ordination required to ensure that a proper, organised and ordered approach is taken to the conservation of our heritage. A number of committees have already been established to ensure that such an approach is adopted. The NIAH advisory committee provides advice on the operation of the inventory, while a number of groups are working on the construction of guidelines for public authorities. The Department of the Environment and Local Government also runs a number of schemes and is co-ordinating matters with my Department on that issue.

I recently had the opportunity to visit the architectural archive to which Deputy Perry referred in order to learn about the great work carried out by everyone involved with that project. The members of the Irish Architectural Archive have correlated and preserved a tremendous amount of information for the benefit of the State and the general public. I agree with Deputy Deasy that, while it is important to ensure that such information is correlated and preserved, we must also ensure that it is accessible and available to the local public. It was for this reason I was anxious to see funding allocated to the national archives for its new headquarters because in time the public will gain greater access to the information deposited there.

Deputy Deasy also referred to the importance of local history and the valuable information known to older members of the community which must be passed on and made accessible. However, the Deputy did not raise one issue, namely, attempting to correlate women's history. I am particularly interested in the women's project because women were often written out of history and, like the folklore commission, we are trying to see how further information can be gathered about women's experiences.

Mr. Deasy

The Irish mother is the greatest institution in Irish history.

Miss de Valera

I agree. That is why it is important to collect and correlate as much as possible of the oral history that is available to us and ensure that people have proper access to it.

I thank the Members who participated in this debate, which lasted longer than I had anticipated. I am pleased by that fact. I look forward to Committee Stage when we will have the opportunity to discuss the issues raised today in more detail. I also look forward to discussing any amendments Members may wish to table.

Question put and agreed to.