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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 May 1999

Vol. 504 No. 5

Ceisteanna–Questions. - Dublin and Monaghan Bombings.

Ruairí Quinn

Question:

3 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the outcome of his recent meeting with representatives of the families of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974; the new initiatives, if any, he will take to address the issues raised at the meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11522/99]

John Bruton

Question:

4 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with family members of the victims of the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12154/99]

Ruairí Quinn

Question:

5 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with representatives of the relatives of those who died in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings; the initiatives, if any, he promised to take arising from the meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12056/99]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 5, inclusive, together.

The Dublin and Monagahan bombings, which took place on 17 May 1974, the 25th anniversary of which is next Monday, were among the most appalling outrages in the history of this island. As a result, 33 people were killed and 240 were injured. A great many more lives, namely those of the victims' friends and relatives, were scarred forever.

I met the Justice for the Forgotten Group – the Dublin and Monaghan relatives' committee – with their legal representatives on Thursday, 22 April 1999. It is clear the group, as its name implies, feels it has not been listened to and that its members' concerns have not been addressed over the years. At our meeting, members raised a number of issues with me, including the investigation that was carried out after the bombings. They indicated that new evidence had come to light and undertook to establish a sub-committee to assemble the evidence and present the case for an inquiry.

I gave my commitment to form an interdepartmental group to work with the committee in an exercise broadly similar to that carried out in the Irish Government's assessment of the evidence relating to Bloody Sunday. The recommendations of the victims' commissioner, former Tánaiste, John Wilson, would also have to be taken into account as the Government had put the Dublin and Monaghan bombings into his remit. I also said a tribunal of inquiry would not be ruled out, if an argument for having one could be constructed.

Finally, I am advised that the Garda authorities are pursuing fresh inquiries in the case as a result of information which has been provided to them in the past few weeks. As this is an active criminal investigation, particularly in view of the receipt of this information, it will naturally be essential to ensure its effectiveness is not in any way compromised by other inquiries which may be undertaken.

Will the Taoiseach indicate whether he complied with his promise to open the files on this matter when he took office? If the reports that he found no evidence that anyone could be pinpointed or was likely to be charged as a result of the examination of those files are true, will he indicate why Yorkshire Television, which had limited access to the files through the Garda, claims there is evidence that a number of people are at least likely to have prima facie evidence against them and that inquiries should have been pursued North and South? How can there be such a conflict of views? Yorkshire Television staff, who spoke to the Garda at some length on this matter and have audio tapes of their interviews, are convinced there is evidence in the files.

I want to be helpful and constructive on this matter and have given a commitment to work with the relatives' group. Some very useful information is contained in the Magill article and it is clearly of some concern. However, dates, details of meetings and other references appear there of which I was unaware. I note that I held meetings on particular dates with people of whom I had never heard, but I do not want to get into that now.

Over the years I have spoken to various justice Ministers about this matter. I have never examined the files personally but I was given to understand that a substantive case did not exist. Notwithstanding that, I am prepared to set up the interdepartmental group to see what evidence exists.

The Yorkshire Television programmes seem to indicate the station had access, via the Garda, to information on this case during the term of office of the previous Government. I have spoken to the officials involved and they certainly were not aware of that. I have not been able to establish who is right or wrong in this matter, but the officials in my Department who dealt with this matter were not aware that Yorkshire Television was communicating with the Garda. They did not receive that information at the time. That said, the victims' relatives feel very hurt, upset and, in some ways, ignored. It is not fair to say they have been ignored. I have attended many meetings throughout the years with politicians from other parties on this matter and have also attended commemoration and remembrance ceremonies. The group now has good, committed legal representatives, including Don Mullen who worked with this and the previous Government on the Bloody Sunday case. I have set up an interdepartmental group and we will work with the committee to see if we can establish a substantive case from the available information – what was said and what was on file.

The Taoiseach undertook to examine the files before entering Government. He now tells the House that he has not examined the files. Surely it would be proper for the Taoiseach to request the Garda files, not just the departmental files, on this case and review them so he can establish to his own satisfaction if the claims being made by Yorkshire Television are true. That would not compromise any investigation by the Garda of the evidence it may have at the moment. It would certainly reassure the victims and their relatives that the Government takes this matter seriously.

The relatives understand that the Government takes this seriously. Another Minister and I discussed this with the Garda Commissioner early on when we entered Government. I have reasonable knowledge of what is on departmental files but I do not have any knowledge of the Garda files. There are ongoing investigations.

Submissions have been made by more than one person on this matter. I will not identify those who have given information but I will not ignore that information. I cannot say if the information is factual but there are two substantive cases which are not on the records. They were made by people who, with the passage of time, feel they should speak on the issues. That has happened twice; one person spoke in the public domain. There have been substantial discussions of the statements made by that person. The other statements will be followed up.

Meetings have been continuing for more than a year. I met members of the group many times over the past years. They are now in an organised group, with legal representation, which Don Mullan is co-ordinating. The interdepartmental committee will use the officials whom the previous Government used in the Bloody Sunday case to see what we can put together.

I know the departmental and Garda views on this matter. Notwithstanding those views, we must look at this situation. It is unacceptable from the point of view of the victims and their relatives. There are issues which must be addressed: the presentation of new evidence and following up on a cross-jurisdictional basis, as well as determining if there is sufficient evidence to proceed with an inquiry.

Does the Taoiseach agree that in the event of the establishment of a tribunal, it should be a tribunal with the capacity to compel witnesses to appear in and from both jurisdictions and perhaps from further afield? Does the Taoiseach agree that for a tribunal to work, it is important that it be simultaneously established by this House and the Houses of Parliament in Westminster? Does he agree that there is a facility for doing that, in that the legislation governing tribunals is joint legislation which was passed before the State obtained independence? Both countries have the same legislation and could easily use it to establish a joint tribunal of inquiry to investigate this matter. Does the Taoiseach agree that short of doing that we are unlikely to get the facts?

The Deputy is correct on the legislation. The Tribunal of Enquiry Act, 1921, predated the administration. The cross-jurisdictional basis in determining sufficient evidence will have to be examined.

However, it is too early for that. We must establish whether there is enough evidence to proceed. To do that we must look at what is available and, as the Garda Síochána is doing, look at the new evidence. Many questions have been raised about this issue. There may or may not be answers to those questions. The Magill article highlighted many of the questions and there are worrying aspects to the case. Some relate to hearsay which was previously in the public domain while some are entirely new. The issue must be examined afresh. The interdepartmental group will do that and work with the legal representatives for the relatives.

I welcome the initiative the Taoiseach is taking and I further welcome that he is using the precedent I set in the Bloody Sunday inquiry of having a pre-inquiry of the sort mentioned.

While supporting the need for an inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, will he ensure that we do not take a partitionist approach to this? We must bear in mind that there were also bombings in the Six Counties. If truth and reconciliation are required for bombings which happened in this jurisdiction, there should be similar co-operation from all involved to ensure we hear the truth about those responsible for the bombings in the Six Counties, and that all those who have knowledge of who was responsible for those atrocities would be as co-operative in giving that information as they are in seeking this inquiry.

I thank the Deputy for his support. Mr. Wilson, the former Tánaiste, in his work for the Victims Commission, has been working with his counterpart in Northern Ireland. The families would point out that the difference is that in most of the terrible atrocities in the North, responsibility was claimed.

– by organisations which were anonymous in their membership.

In this case the concern of the people continues to be that there has been a massive cover-up. We must take that into account. As we move towards an end to such difficulties, more and more people – victims in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and their relatives – want to get to the bottom of what happened.

Hardly a week goes by without my meeting one organisation or another relating to victims, relatives and those who have served prison sentences in the North. Those organisations come from both sides of the divide and we must take all their views into account.

Does the Taoiseach accept that faceless organisations – whose leaderships maintain anonymity – claiming responsibility for bombings does not contribute to reconciliation? There is not a feeling that personal responsibility or accountability for these killings is accepted by anyone in a political sense. Does the Taoiseach agree that in addition to an inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, we need an approach to truth and reconciliation in general and a willingness among the individuals concerned, through some mediator, to accept personal responsibility for some of the terrible things which have been done? We can then seek reconciliation and healing in this area just as we seek reconciliation and healing in other areas of suffering. Terrorism is not in a different category to other forms of injury to people.

That is why we are here talking about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the missing people and other issues.In terms of the organisations, many people have served long sentences for many of these bombings. They are not faceless in that many people, both loyalists and republicans, have been charged and sentenced on these issues, but that does not solve the problem for the victims' families. In any of the representations or discussions I have had on a South African type truth and reconciliation group or body – I raised that issue at many meetings over the past four or five years both in the North and the South – it did not gain much acceptance from many of them for one reason or another. That is why, in this case, before we go down the road of inquiries, we have to examine carefully the information that is available to determine whether we can proceed.

When does the Taoiseach expect the interdepartmental group will meet with the Justice for the Forgotten group? How soon does he expect that the co-operation between the interdepartmental group and the Justice for the Forgotten group will result in some proposals with regard to how matters might be dealt with? Will the Taoiseach agree it is important to bring to an end the pain and trauma suffered for 25 years by the injured and the relatives of those murdered by the bombs and that for that to happen justice must not only be done but be seen to be done? Will he agree there is a grave sense among them that the agencies of the State have not adequately pursued those who were suspected of having planted these bombs and that it is essential, therefore, that the Taoiseach would be seen to be actively engaged in this by talking to the commissioner, asking him to explain the discrepancy between the information the Taoiseach seemed to have in March 1999, that there is no basis for charging anybody, and the report by Don Mydleton of Yorkshire Television who claimed that in 1992 information given to him by the gardaí indicated that there were people who could have been charged based on the Garda files at the time? Will the Taoiseach agree there is a need for clarity and to ensure that the Taoiseach and the State agencies are not seen to be dragging their feet, no matter how active they may be behind the scenes?

Any information I used in any of those meetings was information I got from the Minister or from the commissioner – I have already explained that. It was not known to me at that stage, nor am I certain, but it seems that the people from Yorkshire Television sat down with the gardaí. That was not the information given to the Department at the time, when I was not in Government, but the same individuals are there. I do not want to make a point of that—

It should be relatively easy to clarify that.

—and we can clarify it. Deputy De Rossa is talking as if this is something that only came to light yesterday.

I am not. It is 25 years—

I would remind him it has been around for 25 years. It is better for us to say bluntly here, rather than somebody saying it outside this House, that these families feel the political establishment of successive parties in power over those 25 years did not have the stomach to examine this issue. That is what they sincerely believe. There has been considerable speculation over the years as to who carried out the bombings and about the subsequent investigations in particular. The first time I asked questions about this matter in the House was in 1978. I would be happy to be able to bring about a resolution of the issue to the satisfaction of everyone concerned. That may or may not be feasible. I am setting out today what we intend to do and I believe we are gaining support for it. I await with interest the recommendations of the victims commissioner on the issue. As indicated, the relatives will get every assistance from the interdepartmental group in the assessment of the evidence.

I am advised it is reported that there was a direct association with some of those responsible for the Dublin and Monaghan bombings by one of the then members, and possible other members, of the Garda Síochána. That is a serious claim and one that of itself merits a full inquiry to establish the veracity of the claim or put it to bed once and for all. Is there more to the official Garda line at the time and since regarding evidence available? Having waited for 25 years, can we not now act to establish a judicial inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings so that the full truth, with all that entails, can be established?

Since that terrible day of 17 May 1974 there have been rumours and I do not know if there is any substance to any of those rumours. I do not have evidence – neither the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform nor the Garda Commissioner, or any previous one, gave me evidence. This issue has to be addressed and we are endeavouring to examine the new and existing evidence, as well as the files, and work with the interdepartmental group to see if there is sufficient evidence to proceed with an inquiry. When that is completed I will report back to the House on it.

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