Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 May 1999

Vol. 504 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 30, Motion re Statement for the Information of Voters in relation to the Twentieth Amendment of the Constitution (No. 2) Bill, 1999; No. 4, Údarás na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Bill, 1999 – Order for Second Stage and Second and Remaining Stages; No. 10, Motion re Telecom Éireann ESOP-IPO, and No. 33, Statements on Industrial Schools.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) No. 30 shall be decided without debate; (2) Second and Remaining Stages of No. 4 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 12.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands; (3) the proceedings on No. 10, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion within two hours and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time, and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; (4) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 33: (i) the opening statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time, and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 30 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 4 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 10 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 33 agreed?

Mr. Sargent

No. I have raised this matter previously. Will the Government allocate time to parties other than Fine Gael and the Labour Party which have expressed concern about this issue?

An Ceann Comhairle

The debate will continue next week.

Mr. Sargent

History teaches us that next week is a long time away. Other parties will have their say. We would like to be able to state our case.

Mr. M. Ahern

A crisis of conscience among the Germans.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I am astounded at the insensitivity of the Government Chief Whip on the issue. I was the first Deputy to raise it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not make a statement. He should ask a question.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Only one hour is allowed for statements today.

An Ceann Comhairle

The debate will continue next week.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Is that a guarantee?

The Taoiseach

The debate will continue for one hour today and the Whips have agreed that it will continue next Wednesday between 8.30 p.m. and 10.30 p.m.

Mr. Gormley

On a point of order, can we have a commitment that time will be allocated to other parties either this week or next week?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): This issue will continue to arise. When Democratic Left had four Deputies in the House they were routinely facilitated.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not proceed by way of statement.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): To facilitate the smooth running of the House, there are five Deputies who agree that time should be made available.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot deal with that matter on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): If it is not dealt with, much time will be wasted in coming weeks.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 33 agreed?

Mr. Sargent

No.

Question put.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputies claiming the division please rise?

Deputies Gormley, Higgins (Dublin West) and Sargent rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

As fewer than ten Members have risen, I declare the question carried. The names of the Deputies dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

Question declared carried.

Mrs. Owen

What legislation is necessary and when will it be introduced to bring into force what is contained in the Irish Independent this morning regarding a new uniformed traffic warden system? About a week ago I raised the issue of 140 traffic wardens who will lose their jobs when they are transferred to Dublin Corporation because the director of traffic says they are not needed. Today's paper says the Government will announce in the Fianna Fáil election manifesto that new traffic wardens will be brought in to help the gardaí. Not only will they look after traffic, they will also carry out planning inspections. What legislation is needed? Is this Government policy or a Fianna Fáil election manifesto promise? I understand the gardaí have not really had any discussions with the Taoiseach about this proposal. If he announces it today and has to row back on it, it will not have been a good way to do business.

The Taoiseach

The exercise by wardens of powers not currently exercised by local authorities would require amendments to the relevant legislation, including the Road Traffic Acts.

Mrs. Owen

Is the Taoiseach promising legislation or is he announcing the scheme today?

Mr. Howlin

It is a gimmick.

Mrs. Owen

The Taoiseach has told us legislation is needed. Will he be able to announce this scheme today before he even knows what legislation is necessary? Will the Taoiseach tell us about the planning elements of the work of these new traffic wardens?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to go into the contents of any proposal.

Mrs. Owen

We need to know about legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Not on the Order of Business. The Deputy will have to deal with this matter another way. We cannot go into the contents of proposed legislation.

Mrs. Owen

These wardens will be given new powers to inspect—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should table a parliamentary question. I have allowed the Deputy latitude on this matter and she is clearly out of order in discussing the contents of proposed legislation. The Deputy should abide by the rules of the House.

Mr. Cowen

Bring back the leader.

Mrs. Owen

I asked about legislation but the Taoiseach answered half my question. He told us amendments to the Road Traffic Acts will be introduced to give these new traffic wardens powers. Are other amendments needed for the planning aspect?

Mr. Cowen

Can we get off this roundabout?

Mrs. Owen

Deputy Cowen should be quiet and look after people's health and not leave them waiting years and years for operations. Things would be better if Deputy Cowen stopped practising heckling and looked after the health of the nation.

Mr. Cowen

Get off the roundabout.

Mrs. Owen

The Deputy should sort out rows between backbenchers who threaten to resign.

Is there a proposal to amend the planning legislation? It is necessary to change planning legislation to give non-local authority staff the right to look after planning and development. My understanding is that no local authority knows anything about a change in the way they will carry out inspections.

Mr. Shatter

Will the Taoiseach tell us if traffic wardens will automatically become architects or surveyors?

The Taoiseach

The Minister is working on an excellent review of the Planning and Development Act which is not related to this issue but which is excellent legislation.

Mrs. Owen

That is a load of waffle and it is upsetting traffic wardens.

Mr. Quinn

I wish to confirm what the Taoiseach said yesterday in respect of the Statute of Limitations (Amendment) Bill. I understand the Taoiseach confirmed yesterday that Government time will be made available for Second Stage of the Bill and that Government amendments will be taken in due course. I propose that Second Stage be taken between 8.30 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. next Tuesday subject to agreement between the Whips.

The Taoiseach

Next week's schedule has already been set. Much work requires to be done. Deputy Quinn has already accepted that the Bill needs to be substantially amended. However, I confirm what I said yesterday, namely, that the Bill will be taken and that the Government will amend it.

Mr. Quinn

I appreciate what the Taoiseach has said and am conscious of the time pressures on everybody given that the House will go into recess in five or six weeks. I suggest that, if the time slot between 8.30 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. next Tuesday has not been filled – I gather it is free – Second Stage be taken on that date and that the necessary amendments which are in the course of preparation by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform be tabled in due course and referred to the committee. We can reach Committee Stage if we take Second Stage sometime next week. If the time slot on Tuesday is free, Second Stage could be disposed of without disagreement and work on Committee Stage, where the real changes have to be made, could commence and continue through July if necessary.

Mr. Shatter

Fine Gael regards this legislation as urgent and I support what Deputy Quinn said, namely, that there is no reason Second Stage cannot be taken next week. In that context our party will fully co-operate. I urge that Government time be given next week for Second Stage. If it is decided to take it on Tuesday evening, then so be it.

The Taoiseach

It depends on whether the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is ready. Yesterday I announced that we were prepared to take Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's Bill and we will work on that basis.

Mr. Shatter

When?

Mr. Quinn

I think there is all-party support for the Bill. I appreciate the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is overburdened with over 32 Bills in preparation. However, we are seeking a Second Stage debate with a speech and reply from the Minister with the clear intention that the Bill will be amended and will progress to Committee Stage. Between now and next Tuesday it should be possible for the Department to prepare a speech for Second Stage.

The Taoiseach

I will certainly look at that. I assume we are talking about Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's Bill – Deputy Shatter appeared with a Bill this morning. We are prepared to deal with Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill.

Mr. Shatter

Fine Gael has a Bill on the Order Paper. We regard the matter as sufficiently urgent for us to deal with it in Private Members' time in the event of the Government not taking Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill next week. However, we fully accept that Deputy Jan O'Sullivan published the first Bill on the issue. We ask the Taoiseach to confirm to the House that Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill will be taken next Tuesday. If it is not taken, I will formally move the First Reading of our Bill. If the Taoiseach subsequently indicates that the Government will take Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill next week, we will not press the Bill next week in Private Members' time. This issue should not be left on the back burner; neither should it divide the House.

Mrs. Owen

The Bill should not divide the House.

The Taoiseach

In an effort to be constructive and helpful to people who draft Bills in the House, the Labour Party presented a Bill on this matter several weeks ago. That Bill has many deficiencies, something acknowledged by the Labour Party and something which is not unusual in terms of a Bill put forward by an Opposition Party. Yesterday I stated that we would take the Bill and amend it in committee. I will do that as soon as possible when we are ready. This morning Deputy Shatter appeared with a Bill and there seems to be an attempt to fix that into the time next week. Otherwise, Deputy Shatter said he would move the Bill in his party's Private Members' time, as is his prerogative.

Mrs. Owen

It is the only way we can get the matter discussed.

Mr. Shatter

We want to have the issue addressed.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy wants the issue to be addressed but, with the greatest respect, he must decide whether he is prepared to do what we are prepared to do, namely, work with Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill and not his Bill.

Mr. Shatter

The Taoiseach is giving no guarantee.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Shatter must understand this; we will make a decision on Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill in due course.

Mr. Shatter

The Taoiseach is giving no guarantee that he will provide Government time for Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill before the House goes into recess for the summer. We have seen the Government's approach in the past to issues of this nature. For example, the Children Bill has been on the Order Paper for two years. As far as we are concerned this is an urgent issue.

Mr. Dempsey

Why did the Deputy not do something himself?

Mr. Shatter

I fully accept that Deputy O'Sullivan has published a Bill which is on the Order Paper. Will the Taoiseach give the House a commitment that if he does not give Government time for the Bill next week, at a minimum he will provide Government time the following week? That would mean the issue could be addressed before the House goes into recess for the summer. It is not acceptable for the Taoiseach simply to indicate he will provide Government time on some unspecified date when the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform gets its act together. Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill has been published for nine months and has not yet been brought before the House. The Department has had nine months to consider amendments.

The Taoiseach

I said 24 hours ago that the Private Members' Bill will be taken in Government time. Twenty four hours later I will not specify when that will be done. However, it will be done. We said we will accept the principle and heads of the Bill and work on that basis. We will also work out the time. If there is unanimity on the matter I do not understand why Deputy Shatter is being divisive.

Mr. Shatter

Because we want legislation. There has been waffle for years about protecting children.

Mrs. Owen

In the past when issues such as this have arisen the Taoiseach indicated that he would ask the Whips to discuss the matter. Will he give a commitment in relation to this Bill that the Whips will examine the proposal made by Deputy Quinn about taking it at 8.30 p.m. next Tuesday? He has not quite gone that far this morning. The Taoiseach is aware, in the context of the statements being taken later today, that the Statute of Limitations (Amendment) Bill is very relevant to what has happened in our industrial schools and orphanages. It is time the legislation was dealt with and if there is unanimity it could be dealt with at 8.30 p.m. next Tuesday. This would not involve a great deal of work by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform other than a speech for Second Stage, something which should be possible. The Bill can then go to committee where the serious amendments which the Taoiseach said are necessary can be examined. I would like an indication that the Whips will discuss the matter.

The Taoiseach

What I said yesterday morning still stands.

Mrs. Owen

Give us a time.

The Taoiseach

I cannot give a time. Normally in such a case the Government would reject the Bill. We did the opposite yesterday and for some reason another Bill appeared this morning.

Mrs. Owen

We had been working on that Bill for months. It did not appear overnight.

The Taoiseach

We are prepared to work on Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's Bill as soon as possible.

Proinsias De Rossa

I seek to raise on the Adjournment the fact the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees is appealing for additional funds to cope with the refugee crisis. When is it intended to bring forward Votes 38 and 39 for international co-operation in the Department of Foreign Affairs and when is it intended to increase them to provide additional funds for the United Nations refugee effort in Kosovo and surrounding states?

The Taoiseach

I do not have the schedule for the Votes but there is one before the various committees. The Government has already allocated resources. Deputy De Rossa is aware that this week the European Union also gave a further 20 million ecu.

Proinsias De Rossa

The spokesperson for the High Commissioner for Refugees has been on Irish radio twice this week appealing to European Union member states to make a serious commitment. The European Union is the one body which is most derelict in its financial commitment to support for the United Nations in this area. I appeal to the Taoiseach for us, as a member state, to make our financial contribution to them quickly.

Mr. Neville

What has happened to an important Bill to protect children? On 18 November last, the Protection of Children (Hague Convention) Bill, 1998, was on the Order Paper and was ordered for business. It is not on the Government list of legislation now. Will the Taoiseach tell us what has happened to that Bill and if he intends to introduce it at any stage?

The Taoiseach

There are two Bills, one to be taken this session and the Hague Convention Bill to be taken later in the year.

Mr. Neville

The Protection of Children (Hague Convention) Bill, 1998.

The Taoiseach

Work has commenced in the Department on the preparation of proposals. Heads are expected to be submitted in the autumn to the drafting authorities.

Mr. Neville

It was on the Order Paper on 18 November last.

Mr. M. Higgins

The Taoiseach announced some time ago the Government was studying the implications of the decision of the court case against the State in the case of the Blascaod Mór. What legislation is being prepared to address that court decision and is it being addressed in the context of the promised National Parks and Historic Properties Bill?

The Taoiseach

To answer Deputy Neville, there are two Bills. I have answered the question about the Bill which is not published, but he is probably aware that one is published and is already listed for order. It will be taken this session. The one I mentioned is not yet drafted.

Mr. Neville

Will the 1998 Bill be taken this session?

The Taoiseach

One of them is already published and will be taken this session. The other, the Hague Convention Bill, will be published later this year. Work on the National Parks and Historic Properties Bill has been deferred due to work priorities in the Department. I do not have a date for it.

Mr. M. Higgins

That Bill is lost to the mists. My question related to the previous occasion when the Taoiseach said the court decision against the State on constitutional grounds relating to the Blascaod Mór was being studied by the Government and the issue was whether to appeal it or introduce amending legislation. Has a decision been taken to introduce amending legislation or is it intended to defend what has been held by the courts to be defective legislation?

The Taoiseach

The implications of the court judgment are being considered in the Department.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Two weeks ago the Chief Justice announced the establishment of a commission to oversee judges and to receive complaints from litigants relating to judicial performance. Will legislation be required to set up this committee? If so, when will we see that legislation, given the obvious urgency of the situation?

The Taoiseach

No legislation is required for the committee to operate. It begins its work next Wednesday – that is subject to correction – and intends to finish within six months.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate he is asking a detailed question which might be more appropriate to a parliamentary question.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): It relates to promised legislation. Given that the committee, when it is set up, may well deal with the issue of judicial performance—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now asking about the content of the legislation.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): No, I am asking, if the committee, depending on the scope of its functions and powers, deals with the issue of judicial function, will legislation or a constitutional amendment be required.

The Taoiseach

The committee has not yet had its first meeting so we had best wait until it undertakes its work. The Chief Justice has said he will examine internal procedures, but that is a matter for the courts.

Mr. Sargent

The Road Traffic Bill is at a pre liminary stage in the relevant Department. Bearing in mind the serious traffic congestion and road safety record in this country and that the cavalier treatment of the traffic wardens is making the situation worse, will the date of publication of the Bill be brought forward?

The Taoiseach

The Bill provides for changes in road traffic legislation, the road traffic strategy and other matters. I do not have a date for it, but work has commenced in the Department.

Mr. Yates

There was a meeting last night of Deputies from all parties with employees of the Great Southern Hotel group who are fearful for their future. Will it be possible to arrange between the Whips a discussion with the Minister on the Anderson report on Aer Rianta and the future of the Great Southern Hotel group because its employees are fearful for their future?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. Yates

Will the Whips consider a debate on this important—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate on the Order of Business to ask what the Whips will do.

Mr. Yates

Some 1,000 employees are affected. It might not be a problem in Kilkenny, but it is a critical issue in the local elections.

Mr. Currie

When will we see the Blanchardstown Institute of Technology Bill?

The Taoiseach

It is scheduled for this session.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I am used to hanging off the hind quarters on the Order of Business, so I am usually brief, or the Ceann Comhairle sees to it that I am. Regarding the Criminal Justice (Safety of United Nations Personnel) Bill, did the Taoiseach read that the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights was in Nis in Serbia yesterday when the cluster bombs were dropped by NATO on a residential quarter? Will he agree his Government is associated with this monstrous action?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business. There are other ways for the Deputy to raise the matter but it cannot be dealt with on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I asked about promised legislation, which is in order.

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be taken late this year.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): What about the cluster bombs?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy asked about promised legislation.

Mr. Hayes

Following the report issued by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform concerning the Mespil Flats controversy, or Mespil Apartments depending on the part of Dublin in which one lives, when will the recommendations of that report, which would require small amending legislation to the—

An Ceann Comhairle

That would be more appropriate to a parliamentary question. Raising the recommendations of a report is not in order.

Mr. Hayes

It is promised legislation.