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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 May 1999

Vol. 504 No. 6

Adjournment Debate Matters - Industrial Schools: Statements.

In recent years we have been confronted with the stark realities of the abuse of children. This has been a halting process which has often placed unbearable strains on victims striving to build a new life in place of the years stolen from them by terror. With dignity and bravery they have told their stories. They have challenged our collective complacency and, as the Taoiseach said on Tuesday, they have shown us we cannot put the past behind us by ignoring it but must confront it and learn its lessons.

One of the most striking things I have found in my discussions with victims is that they feel they must still fight to be believed. When I met one group of victims last week they began by saying: "Minister, we want you to believe that these things happened to us". They felt this was necessary because the reality of official action had never caught up with the rhetoric of empathy. The major revelations of 1996 had brought many promises but little action and the victims came to believe they were again being ignored by a public Ireland which would prefer to ignore the uncomfortable rather than face up to it. I repeat on the record of the House what I said to those victims: "The Government believes you; you were gravely wronged and it falls to us to do all we can to help you overcome the lasting effects of the ordeals you were put through."

The apology issued by the Taoiseach on behalf of the State and all citizens of the State was intended as a simple but fundamental demonstration that the Government is determined to throw up the shutters on the past, to learn its lessons and do all that can be done to heal its lasting wounds. This is not an issue to which the Government is providing a knee-jerk reaction. We have spent a large amount of time discussing it both informally and formally. Early last year the Taoiseach said he wanted his Government to be the one which adopted a comprehensive and appropriate response to dealing with both the effects and prevention of abuse. One-off initiatives were not to be entertained and an interdepartmental approach was to be adopted.

Last December a sub-committee of the Cabinet was established with the remit of drawing together a range of initiatives and developing a proposal to establish a commission into abuse. I was appointed chairperson of the sub-committee, which includes the Tánaiste, the Attorney General and five other members. Contrary to statements made by certain Deputies last week, we were not driven by a concern to find legal ways out of taking action. Our purpose is to find a means of moving away from the conservative approach which informed previous responses to revelations. The sub-committee, assisted in its work by a group of senior officials, primarily met informally and required significant bilateral contact between members. It considered international practice and a range of different aspects to past and present instances of abuse, including how abuse cases should be handled in the future. Our recommendations were accepted by Cabinet on Tuesday and announced that evening. We would not suggest the proposals are in any way a final response to all issues of child abuse, and it is clear further measures will be required, but they represent a major move forward.

The need for a forum for victims to tell their stories has been clear for some time. Added to this is the need to objectively examine the causes, nature and extent of abuse. It is intended that the commission the Government has decided to establish will fulfil these roles. In the interests of justice and the common good, this unusual move is not only justified but essential. As announced, it will consist of three persons. It is intended they will combine expertise in law, abuse and social services. A secretariat will be provided for the commission and such resources as it requires for additional assistance, including the extensive research which will obviously be undertaken.

The Government has decided to adopt an unusual process for the establishment of the commission because we want to make sure both its powers and operational details are what are required to meet its objectives. We envisage these will deal with matters such as privilege and compellability. We are establishing it on an administrative basis in the first instance. It will be asked to return to Government within three months with recommendations on such statutory powers as it may feel are required to underpin its work. We will then seek to enact the necessary legislation without delay. We welcome the support of the Opposition for this approach and its assurance that the legislation will receive priority treatment in the House. We want the commission to carry out its work without fear or favour and to go wherever it feels it must go to get at the truth. We want it to inspire the confidence of victims and for all individuals and bodies to co-operate fully with it.

The commission has not been set an easy task. It will be a unique body, different from anything else we have seen. The narrow legal and adversarial approaches which can so often be part of inquiries should play no role in its work as they would undermine its purpose. If the establishment of the commission is itself a statement about the need for us to mature as a nation, its operation will be another challenge to us. Can we approach it in good faith and openness, use it to confront issues long buried and proceed with this process in a dignified manner? For politicians it also poses the question of whether we can have confidence in it and give it the space to do its work without us seeking to interfere or grandstand.

The commission does not represent business as usual and the more we appreciate this and give it the support it needs the more likely it is to achieve its objectives. It is not about money, headlines or short-term gain, but about a search for the truth, an opening up to people who have suffered in silence for too long and a statement about what we want to be in the future. In many ways I agree with the suggestion that it is similar to the Truth Commission which operated in South Africa, with the obvious exception that we do not propose to offer an amnesty from criminal prosecution. Coming at the end of a century which has seen many developments in this country, I hope and believe the commission will be remembered as making a lasting and positive impression on our progress as an inclusive society.

It is well known that victims of abuse generally require counselling to help them to overcome its effects. I have heard many stories from victims of the difficulties they have faced in accessing counselling. In many cases victims have shouldered much of the burden for counselling due to the inadequacies of available services. In one case that has been brought to my attention, a victim was asked to attend counselling in the very building in which they were abused.

Victims have also been required to spend significant sums on getting to and from counselling. Each time the spotlight has shone on abuse, promises have been made about counselling but each time nothing has been done.

The Government has decided to deal with this by establishing a dedicated professional counselling service in all regions. Some £4 million per annum has been allocated for the service. Deputies will appreciate that, because of issues relating to the availability of staff, the new service will take time to get going. In the meantime, alternative arrangements are being worked on and we hope they will be announced by the Department of Health and Children within a fortnight. We will also ensure there is co-ordination between health boards on the implementation of best practice, and specific steps will be taken to promote widespread knowledge of the availability of services.

The issue of the applicability of the Statute of Limitations to cases of childhood abuse is extremely complex. Regarding sexual abuse, there is a body of international and domestic experience which can be drawn upon to guide legal changes. Evidentiary and related issues have been examined and it is reasonably clear what action is required. As announced by the Taoiseach, the Government has agreed to support the amendment of the statute to extend the concept of disability to victims of childhood sexual abuse who, because of that abuse, have been unable to bring claims within the normal limitation period.

We do not believe similar guidance is available in other cases and have decided to ask the Law Reform Commission for its recommendations. If, however, there is guidance which Deputies feel we have missed, such as the handling of the evidence of the effects of abuse and the operation of such cases in other jurisdictions, we would welcome this. The House will consider this issue in full and it will be dealt with by the end of this session. These are serious issues and I hope we can discuss them seriously, without attempts at oneupmanship and without the type of adversarial exchanges which are too often a part of our business.

Deputies will be aware of the other details of the Taoiseach's announcement on Tuesday. These reiterate and develop our policy on the protection of children. We will have a number of opportunities to discuss these in the House so I do not propose to go into them further here. Significant progress is being made and, while there is clearly much left to be done, the proposals under way will make a major contribution.

Over the past three weeks RTE screened a series of programmes on the abuse of children in residential institutions. Much of the material is harrowing and has had a major impact on everyone who has seen it. I acknowledge the incredible work of Mary Raftery and her production team for the "States of Fear" series. They have performed a major public service and have shown us all the compelling power of top quality documentary work.

"States of Fear" has provided an immediate context for today's debate, as have associated articles concerning the 1970 Kennedy report on reformatory and industrial schools. I have spent some time examining papers on this topic. Yesterday I met the surviving members of the Kennedy committee to discuss their work and I want to give the House some flavour of what I have found.

The residential care of children was formalised throughout the 19th century. Institutions were certified to receive children who were either committed or sentenced. Following the closure of the last certified school under Protestant management in 1917, every school was run by a religious order. At the turn of the century there were 71 such schools on the island, with a total of approximately 8,000 children. By 1970, there were 29 schools in this jurisdiction catering for some 2,000 children. The significant majority of children in the schools were there due to their guardians being deemed to be unfit.

This decline in numbers was the result of a wide range of factors, but, as has been pointed out, this country clearly differed from others in both the relative and absolute numbers of children committed to residential care. The patterns of neglect and abuse which have been publicised are clearly evident in the surviving evidence, both archival and oral. There is simply no doubt that these institutions were not only deficient, they witnessed serious levels of the direct sexual and physical abuse of children.

In 1968, the then Minister for Education, Donogh O'Malley, decided to do something about them. The mechanism he chose was the establishment of a committee chaired by District Justice Eileen Kennedy. It had 11 members, quite a number of whom were remarkably young, something which seems to have been a deliberate move on the part of the Government. One of the members told me that Donogh O'Malley said of the schools, in his typically direct way, "I want the skin pulled off this pudding". Unfortunately, he died soon after the committee was established.

They viewed their work as future-focused. They knew the system was rotten and concentrated on ways in which it could be replaced: this was particularly done in light of assurances they received that it was policy to close the Letterfrack, Daingean and Glasnevin institutions. They held 69 meetings and carried out an extensive amount of research, including into the operation of systems in other countries. Their policy on visiting the schools has been described to me by members of the committee as of being based on familiarisation rather than inspection. They collectively visited the bigger institutions and visited the others in small groups. While they wrote reports on the institutions, they did not comprise detailed observations, rather they included general impressions.

In their work, they received little assistance. The behaviour of many managers and officials has been described to me as, at best, silently obstructive. It was only due to the direct intervention of the then new Minister, Brian Lenihan, that the committee was given a proper secretariat. There was an always present sense that their operations represented the end of the way that things had always been.

As has been reported, the working files of the committee appear to be missing. My Department retains in the region of 46,000 files and records regarding the old industrial and reformatory schools. The files and records in question go back as far as the last century and their content varies very significantly in terms of detail. In recent years professional archivists have compiled a database of the files on behalf of the Department. Their work was completed last year. These files are made available for inspection by researchers with two obvious exceptions, namely, files involving the personal details of named children and files relating to current Garda investigations. Full access and assistance was given by my officials to the "States of Fear" researchers.

My Department also has a significant number of files dealing with policy issues relating to the operation of the industrial and reformatory school system. These files deal with a range of matters relating to the general operation of the facilities, including issues relating to funding, staffing and inspection.

The files in question include a number which relate specifically to the establishment of the Kennedy committee, the outcome of that committee's work and the action taken to give effect to the committee's recommendations. A number of additional files have been identified which deal with matters relating to child care issues and which would have been relevant to the work of the Kennedy committee.

With regard to the working files of the committee, the House will appreciate that prior to the introduction of the National Archives Act, 1986, and during the period now under discussion, practices relating to the keeping of files and records were not as well developed as they are today.

I first want to establish whether such files still exist within the system and the archives. I can assure the House that in the event of any such files being located, it is my intention that their content be placed in the public domain to the maximum extent possible.

I have arranged to appoint a professional researcher to draw from the Department's archives all files which would assist the commission or us in identifying the Kennedy committee's working flies, should they exist.

My officials have identified details of the only significant occasion on which the committee seems to have confronted the abuse of children. It is worthwhile for me to outline the details of this to the House.

On 28 February 1968 most of the members of the committee visited Daingean reformatory school. There impression of it was of a dismal place which should be closed as soon as possible. In the course of their discussions with the manager he was asked about the corporal punishment procedures. According to the account on file, "He replied openly and without embarrassment that ordinarily the boys were called out of the dormitories after they had retired and that they were punished on one of the stairway landings." The manager was asked if the boys were stripped and he replied that at times they were. "Some other committee member asked why he allowed boys to be stripped naked for punishment and he replied, in a matter of fact manner, that he considered punishment to be more humiliating when it was administered in that way." That is a direct extract from the file.

District Justice Kennedy wrote to the Department of Education on this and other matters and received a reply which dealt with everything but the punishment. While giving assurances about the closure of Daingean, assurance about the punishments stopping seem only to have been given as a result of significant disputes, the exact details of which do not seem to be documented. The exception to this is an April 1970 letter from the Secretary of the then Department of Justice to the Secretary of the then Department of Education. The Secretary of the then Department of Justice wrote that the official of his Department who was a member of the committee had signed the report on the basis of assurances which their Department had received that the Daingean punishments would be stopped. He wrote:

To sign a report which made no reference to the situation about punishment in Daingean would, in the absence of evidence that the practice had ceased, be to appear to acquiesce in a practice which is indefensible and for the con tinuance of which the Minister for Justice could not avoid some official responsibility arising out of his having registered Daingean as a suitable place of detention under the Children Acts.

His next comment reveals much about the approach to abuse even of concerned people:

On the other hand, to make any reference, however oblique, to this particular method of punishment in Daingean would be likely to lead to a disclosure of the situation and, in this way, to cause a grave public scandal.

This episode demonstrates, I believe, the need for everything to come out in the open. I have no doubt that there are many other such incidents in official records and that official neglect and ignorance was commonplace.

Rather than labouring our debate on the issue of the whereabouts of the Kennedy committee working files, it would be best to say that, while the members of the committee believe that they do not contain great detail relating to instances of abuse, they appear to be illustrative of the practice in at least one institution. In other words, that case in Daingean was highlighted. In most of the other institutions these were visits of familiarisation and they did not identify abuse issues. This said, however, if the files can be found, they will be found and they will be made publicly available.

The committee also detailed the manner in which the system was failing in just about every aspect of child care. For example, they showed that only four out of 41 personnel with child care responsibilities had any form of professional training in the area and the children received little or no education provision.

The issue of the impact of State funding on what happened in the institutions has been aired a great deal in recent weeks. This is obviously an area which the commission will examine in depth, but I want to make a few comments. The bottom line is that funding levels provide no excuse for the type of severe physical and sexual abuse which has been exposed. I am not suggesting that funding was what it should have been – indeed it was clearly deficient – but I think proper research would be required before we could accept as unarguable that the worst conditions experienced in the schools, particularly in terms of malnutrition, resulted from funding problems. One file I have seen from the 1940s showed a manager being removed from a school because of the malnutrition of the children and that the situation subsequently improved.

The report of the Kennedy Committee was wide-ranging and, I believe, visionary. It contained a large number of recommendations, some of which are only now being implemented. The more significant recommendations were acted upon and led to the end of the system as it then was. Group homes now form the basis of most care and the professionalisation of staff has been implemented. One of the report's lesser noticed recommendations called for an overhaul of school attendance legislation to include the employment of school welfare officers. Deputies will be aware that the Education Welfare Bill, which the Government recently published, acts in this spirit and overturns the enforcement-led approach so often evident in the past.

The concept of the child as a separate individual with rights came late to this country. For generations, many of our most vulnerable citizens suffered terribly when they had the right to expect support and protection. The system failed them, we all failed them and have continued to fail them by our inaction and neglect.

The preface of the Kennedy Report was short and specifically designed to say that things had to change:

Children need love, care and security if they are to develop into full and mature persons. For most children this is provided by a warm, intimate and continuous relationship with their parents, brothers and sisters. Children in institutions have for the most part missed this happy relationship. If they are to overcome this deprivation they must, therefore, be given love, affection and security by those in whose care they are placed.

I hope we can use our discussions positively and can suspend our normal approach to issues and demonstrate a common purpose. Throughout the work of the commission, and probably well beyond it, further horrific cases of abuse will come to light. More and more difficult questions will be asked and our concept of our society will be challenged. If we try, we can make this a healing process which will bring us closer to maturing as a society. If we achieve this, then hopefully we will have done much to mature as an inclusive, responsive and caring community.

I wish to share time with Deputy Neville.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

If the stream of child abuse cases had dulled our sensitivity to the horror of this crime, the personal stories revealed in "States of Fear" have certainly reawakened our jaded conscience. In the television programmes, we saw systematic abuse meted out to children in need by those trusted with their care. These children had nowhere else to turn, no home to which they could retreat and no ear to listen to their stories. Their betrayal is very painful.

Here we have the age-old parable acted out in real life; children setting out on a lonely journey, being set upon savagely and scarred for life. One by one, those in authority walk by on the other side averting their eyes. Doubtless, each of them could have offered explanations as to why he or she was not the one to heed the cries of anguish. How hollow would such explanations ring when compared with real life stories, stories of childhoods brutalised, adolescences consumed with anger and frustration and stories of spirits twisted and broken?

There are no heroes in this story aside from those who have endured so much pain and grief and have survived through sheer tenacity. Even now, they are willing to tell their stories in order that others will not suffer the same fate. As their stories have started to seep out, how often have they been belittled, denied or branded as deranged? To be a victim is bad enough, to be denied is devastating.

The Taoiseach spoke for all of us when he offered a sincere and long overdue apology to the victims of childhood abuse for our collective failure to intervene, detect their pain and come to their rescue. We must remember that an apology is only the start in the process of making amends. We must learn from what has happened. The apology must be accompanied by sustained action, long after the memory of these vivid programmes have faded from the public mind. We will not learn if this process merely leads to finger pointing at people and practices from the past. Many good people seem to have been trapped in an environment where loyalty, fear of scandal or legal convention blinded them to their responsibilities. The environment of "you do not want to ask" is not gone. Industrial schools may be closed but wherever children are in the custodial care of people who have complete authority over them, this could happen again.

This issue is not about raking over the past for its own sake. The past is still with the victims. This legacy can only be overcome if the entire community listens with an open heart and starts the healing process. We must ensure that in future we have people whose job it will be to listen to the cries of anguish, people who will ask the awkward questions and will not let known offenders slip quietly into the woodwork only to reappear elsewhere to continue their activities.

We must put in place a more robust legal framework to deal with children who are at risk of being neglected or abused. There must be three pillars to this framework. First, a clear legal right must be established for any child with special needs to have that need assessed, a clear statement issued on the resources required to meet the need and an obligation placed on the State and its agencies to make all reasonable effort to provide necessary supports. Second, an inspectorate must be established for all child care providers which will have sufficient independence, powers and resources to do its job properly. Third, an ombudsman for children should be appointed who would listen to complaints and act upon them. He or she should have the power to intervene to investigate suspected malpractice without notice.

Even after the Government's announcement, we are still a long way from having such a framework in place. While it would be churlish not to welcome the Government's announcement, it is our job to place its proposals under critical scrutiny. The announcement bears the marks of a rushed job; the terms of reference provide an opportunity for stories to be told and ask the commission to establish the causes, nature and extent of physical and sexual abuse in institutions. However, no mention is made of an assessment of the State's role in resourcing, supervising and inspecting these institutions. This must also be examined.

Everyone in this House has become sadly familiar with inquiries which raise crucial issues such as the compellability of witnesses, the right to legal representation for any person whose reputation might be damaged, requests for immunity for certain witnesses, the privilege of witnesses from prosecution for defamation and the right to compensation for persons who have suffered. All of these issues raise important political questions; they are not simply technical matters which can be tossed to the three person commission. The Government should have a view on these matters and should clarify them. For example, will witnesses who come forward to tell their stories face hostile cross-examination by teams of lawyers paid by the State representing those who stand accused of neglect or abuse? Will the evidence deduced in the inquiry be admissible in any subsequent criminal prosecution?

These are important matters and the Government must do more than inform the commission to come up with a formula. While I welcome the right of any commission of inquiry to return to the House seeking additional powers, the Government should, with the resources available to the committee comprising the Attorney General and several Ministers, have been in a position to come up with better guidelines for the commission than we have seen to date.

While the Government's decision to lift the three year limitation on personal injury claims for sexual abuse is welcome, it is impossible to understand why this does not also extend to cases of severe physical abuse. The Minister cited long established practice in relation to sexual abuse. I do not believe the concession we are seeking for those who have suffered sustained physical abuse will open the floodgates, which I assume is the basis for the Minister's concern. It is only if a person proves they were unable to come forward earlier because of the effects of the severe physical abuse they suffered that the three year limit will be lifted under the proposals. I cannot see a sound basis for the distinction which the Minister and the Government have drawn between the two cases.

The extension of child care provisions to centres for children with physical and mental disabilities is welcome. We are still a far cry from having a well resourced inspectorate with statutory independence in a position to uphold standards in all institutions run by the State or by voluntary bodies. I understand that there is no proper statutory provision for some of the inspec tions and different bodies carry out different inspections. We need a unified inspectorate with proper resources.

The publication of findings from previous inquiries is rightly being re-examined. At the time of the Madonna House inquiry, the Department had no statutory basis for the initiation of its own inquiry. Instead, it was reliant on the order and the health board commissioning an inquiry. As a result, the Department and the Government of the day was constrained significantly in what it could do with the report. Is the Department is still similarly constrained in conducting independent inquiries and publishing findings on similar cases should they arise?

It is understandable that sections of that report were not published because they might have prejudiced subsequent criminal trials. In many areas of public life, however, legal advice founded on the fear of litigation has resulted in excessive secrecy. The validity of these legal arguments must be put under fresh scrutiny as part of the process now being undertaken. There is a strong public interest that any policy weaknesses uncovered by such inquiries be exposed, understood and corrected.

As the Minister requested, this side of the House will conduct the debate on the basis of trying to secure the best outcome for a sad legacy.

I congratulate RTE for its exposure of the brutal and sadistic cruelty visited on the most vulnerable children in our society under the supervision of State institutions. I welcome the acknowledgement by the State of its role in the severe damage caused to many children and I welcome the apology the Taoiseach made on behalf of the State. To apologise fully, the full facts surrounding the level of abuse and the culpability for that abuse must be established. The Minister has come to the House to outline the process for doing this.

Why should children who fell on hard times be battered, brutalised, dehumanised and made victims of sexual abuse? Their only crime was to be poor. These people will now have their stories heard and their suffering understood. They must receive a compassionate response from the State. We must ensure that what happened does not occur again. It can occur and we must ensure that this generation of legislators is not found culpable of failing to act.

Child abuse continues today and its levels are increasing, but there is a high level of legislative neglect. During the period September to December 1998, there were approximately 100 incidences reported to the Garda of suspicious approaches made to children, but the Government has not yet introduced a register of sex offenders. We need a children's ombudsman, established on a statutory basis to promote and protect children's rights. Children have a right to feel safe, not to be brutalised and dehumanised. They have a right not to suffer from sexual abuse. They have the right to be treated with the same respect and dignity as every human being. A children's ombudsman would ensure these aims were adhered to as far as possible.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which Ireland ratified without reservation on 21 September 1992, accepting its international obligations towards children, states that all signatories shall undertake all appropriate legislative, administrative and other measures for the implementation of the rights accordingly. Given that Ireland ratified the convention, the Government is obliged to take steps to ensure compliance with the provision to protect and promote children's rights. A children's ombudsman must be a priority.

Many children live in considerable disadvantage – children in care, children in legal custody, children who are subject to abuse and neglect, homeless children and children with disabilities. The Government should establish a children's ombudsman as an overall mechanism for the promotion of children's rights.

We can look at the past, apologise for it and compensate for it, but what happened cannot be undone. We must recognise what happened but we must ensure that it does not happen again in any guise, institutional or otherwise. This is our duty as legislators.

At its first general meeting in March 1995, the Children's Rights Alliance decided that one of its main concerns would be the establishment of an office of ombudsman for children which it felt would play a significant role in implementing the Convention on the Rights of the Child and ensuring that children's rights were protected. Following examination of the first report on the implementation of the convention, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child expressed concern about the lack of an independent monitoring mechanism such as an ombudsman or a child's rights commissioner, accessible to children, for dealing with complaints or violations of rights and to provide remedies of such violation. The committee recommended that the Government should consider positively the establishment of an office of ombudsman for children to further the implementation of the convention in Ireland.

Public discourse with children has been minimalist in nature. This is shown by the presence of all the principal players in education at the 1994 National Education Convention with the notable exception of children. The Constitution Review Group, CARI, the Kilkenny incest investigation and the report of the 1995 Kelly Enquiry have all stated that the strong emphasis of the family in the Constitution may, consciously or unconsciously, be interpreted as giving a higher value to the rights of parents than of children. The constitutional clarification of children's rights would assist in the creation of a positive environment for a statutory office of an ombudsman for children. Consequently, a specific, overt declaration on the rights of children should be inserted into the Con stitution. This would involve the amendment of Articles 41 and 42 of the Constitution.

An ombudsman for children should be allowed to monitor child protection standards, to promote examples of good practice and to inquire into serious failures of practice. It is essential that the ombudsman would be able to take legal action in the event of a public body acting in serious breach of its obligations to children. The children's ombudsman, however, should not become involved in legal proceedings until internal complaints or appeals systems have been exhausted.

In establishing such an ombudsman, the Government would recognise children's fundamental, political, social, economic and civil rights not yet enshrined in legislation. The ombudsman would be a neutral investigator of children's legitimate problems and complaints. With the freedom, authority and autonomy of the office, the ombudsman should tell it like it is and ought to be and provide a responsive forum for children's grievances. It should ensure that children are perceived as autonomous with their own special needs and rights.

By establishing an office of an ombudsman for children, the State will provide a significant institutional medium through which children and young people can be heard and given a conflict free environment during their formative years from birth to voting age. The children's ombudsman should speak for children in the context of Government services, facilitating and accommodating remedies for wrongs inflicted on children. A children's ombudsman would lead the way towards ensuring that what was experienced by the brutalised and dehumanised children in institutions, as outlined in the "States of Fear" programme on RTE, would never happen again. If the ombudsman for children is to genuinely promote children's rights, the office must engage in meaningful dialogue with children. This could be facilitated through the use of representative surveys or free hotlines as used by the Norwegian and Swedish ombudsman's office.

I envisage a children's ombudsman playing an active role in shaping and influencing public opinion, primarily through the dissemination of opinions in the media. Alternatively, the ombudsman could lobby for amendments to legislation such as the recognition of children's needs in environmental planning.

The ombudsman for children should also act in a consultative capacity in the drafting of legislation by issuing legal advice and information at the request of public bodies. He or she should be able to request Government permission to take initiatives on issues pertaining to children's rights, and the corollary is that the Government could also allocate such responsibility to the ombudsman where it sees fit. The Swedish ombudsman requested permission from the Swedish government to tackle the issue of bullying. It appears the Government has abandoned, but hopefully will now take on, the issue of an ombudsman for children.

I disagree with the development the Government announced regarding the social services inspectorate as the independence of such a body would be open to question. It is important that the ombudsman should have total independence from the Government and Government agencies.

Frank Martin, lecturer in family law in UCC, wrote in the Irish Journal of Family Law that children are defenceless in society and should have additional protection. He stated that children are a voiceless and vulnerable minority in society and claims that Irish children have inadequate political and legal power.

I welcome the positive announcement by the Taoiseach yesterday in which he indicated, for the first time, that he would seriously consider the introduction of an ombudsman's office, but it must be on an independent basis.

I propose to share my time with my colleague, Deputy Shortall, our spokesperson on children.

The House and the people of Ireland are indebted to Mary Raftery, and indeed to Radio Telefís Éireann, for the three "States of Fear" programmes, but what is important now is that the response of the State and the public be both adequate and courageous. That will mean that certain matters will have to be faced and the truth will have to be told.

There is a moral principle involved in the work of any commission such as the one that has been proposed by the Minister. That moral principle is the distinction between amnesty and amnesia when it comes to memory. For a long time we took refuge in amnesia. We chose not to remember many things that took place because they were unpleasant. That will not work. An amnesty of memory is different. It is when the person sees the perpetrator of an abuse before them and when the perpetrator admits the abuse. When that takes place, as well as the victims being able to tell their stories they may decide that they can leave aside what has happened and be prepared to move on. That has to happen and the commission, which I welcome, will not work unless what I have described takes place.

In facing up to what took place, and the courage I have suggested is necessary, there is another problem, that is, pretending that many people did not know or did not accommodate themselves to what was taking place. In my constituency in Letterfrack, for example, there were boys who worked in the fields of farmers and the farmers who rang the institution and arranged for them to work in the fields know who they had in the fields with them. They know the punishments that took place in the fields. That is why the events in the three programmes prepared by Mary Raftery were not the only ones. They are the most recent.

I recall the publication of Mannix Flynn's book, Nothing to Say. Mannix had been in Let terfrack. I also recall the difficulty he had in publishing that book and the people who did not want to review it. Mavis Arnold had difficulty also in publishing her book and having it reviewed. Many people simply would prefer that the truth never came out. They are still there. I suggest that the friends of such people will work against the commission to make sure the truth does not come out. I know people who know the people who abused them and treated them in a particular way, and they want to see them. They want to talk to them about what took place and the reason for it.

There is no merit in taking refuge in old clichés such as the one that the religious orders took over something that the State neglected. In 1858, the State did not want to deal with those who went into what were reformatories. In 1868, the State did not want to deal with industrial schools. That is so but it is also inescapable that in 1898 – after 100 years we are celebrating local government – there were 71 of these schools with 8,000 children, and by the time Justice Kennedy conducted her investigation between 1967 and the report in 1970, there were 29 schools and 2,000 cases. It is necessary to state that there was, in all of the cases that have broken cover, a comprehensive abuse of power and authority, and a criminal abuse of trust.

Having spent nearly 30 years as a sociologist I cannot say there is a close connection between the assumptions concerning sexuality and the body, the assumptions concerning punishment and the manner in which the State bended its knee, irrespective of what party was in power, to an unwelcome and appalling authoritarian church influence that presided over all of this. If we want to start the work of the commission, we cannot avoid that fact. It will have to be faced. How did the people come to believe that children needed to stand naked on landings at night time because punishment, humiliation and degradation worked better like that? From where did these ideas come? How much of it was owed to the Jansenist poison we have had since the end of the Famine? How do we hold these views? What damage has been done? The graduates of what I have described are in the prisons tonight. People sent by judges to remand homes and prisons this week will be raped this week. What does it tell us? These are the questions that must be addressed before we put something down on paper.

It must be remembered that the secretary of a Department writing to another Department did not describe the impact on the child but the appalling public scandal that might be created. He described it coming into the public domain as an appalling vista that he could not handle. That is why it is necessary that every scrap of paper about everyone who was incarcerated and abused be protected and made available. Whatever about the files – we can pursue that again – I understand a survey was carried out. I also understand that a questionnaire was requested from the manager of each institution on every child. I presume they are all intact. That would be the raw data from which we could extract material.

I want to talk about the atmosphere in which this took place. That is not an excuse. There is an uncomfortable fact that we have to face up to here. In 1982, the then Minister for Education, John Boland, proposed that we stop beating children in the classroom. Some of the vested interests in education asked if we could, like decommissioning, phase it out. We did not officially abandon violence in the classroom until 1982 but that does not excuse what took place. It does not excuse the fact that when the gates closed, the principle of incarceration was an invitation to degradation and an absence of safety for some of the most vulnerable people in the State. It is horrific. In 1979 I was a member of the McBride commission and a survey was carried out of 200 prisoners. About 80 per cent of them had experienced institutions such as that at the centre of current revelations. That is why I mentioned the prisons. That is where we should start.

Since these revelations came into the public domain I have been contacted by someone who has been trying to obtain information about her mother since 1992. This person has been blocked from obtaining that information. This woman was an unmarried mother who put her baby into an institution to which she paid ten shillings per week. She got pleurisy but when she regained health her baby was missing. She never found the child. The woman wrote a letter to the Sister stating:

Dear Sister,

Pardon me for troubling you by writing as I want to make inquiries about a child [named]. She must have been sent there from St. Patrick's Home, Dublin, sometime in July. I had been working in Dublin since the child was one year old but in March I had pleurisy and was in hospital for two months.

After coming out I came home. Up to the time of writing I always saw the child twice a week and paid ten shillings a month. The next thing I heard the baby was gone. I am really heartbroken over her as I loved her beyond words. Of course my mother knows nothing about this so I could not take her home or even mention her.

I do not feel well enough to go back to work. If I did I would not mind so much as I would probably be able to see her. Would it be too much of me to ask you as a favour to let me know how she is? If I sent her something would it be all right.

I am enclosing a stamped addressed envelope and would it be possible to hear before Christmas? Sorry to trouble you but I just had to write.

In 1976, years later, her mother died asking for her but she was never told where her mother was. Late last year, the Reverend Sisters sent her the letter I have just read, claiming that it had fallen from an old ledger. This is what I mean by the cunning connivance which goes on when it comes to hiding records and which will have to be dealt with.

We will also have to face up to the connections with secret organisations which hold the view that a grave moral scandal is the truth coming out and not the abuse. They must be confronted. They made submissions to the Kennedy report and I hope they look at their records. I am not convinced by claims that there are no detailed working files. It would be extraordinary if, at the time of the written record, two people from the Department of Education would accompany the committee on its work without keeping detailed accounts. I look forward to pursuing this issue in another way.

The commission will work if the perpetrators come before it. If they are not willing they must be compelled. The saddest aspect is that, coming from a time of coldness and violence in institutions, the children who needed to be hugged and touched, and still do, will not be free to be hugged and touched because of the new culture of fear which these people have given as their millennium contribution to the unborn children of the country.

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