Vol. 509 No. 1
52 Mr. Higgins (Mayo) asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason for the transfer of the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen, County Kerry; the reason he did not consult the board in advance of the announcement; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19706/99]
55 Ms O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason he is proposing to move the headquarters of the Legal Aid Board from Dublin to Cahirciveen the discussions, if any, he has had with the members of the board or trade unions representing staff on the proposal; if he will publish the impact assessment report on the move prepared by senior management in the board; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19826/99]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 52 and 55 together.
The Deputy will be aware that it is a key priority in An Action Programme for the Millennium that centrally organised State services will be decentralised to ensure that each region gets its fair share of national expenditure on Government administration. I was of the view that the decentralisation of the head office of the Legal Aid Board to a small rural centre would serve as an earnest of the Government's intention of honouring its commitment in this area. On 16 July last I submitted the proposal in principle to the Government that the head office of the Legal Aid Board be decentralised to Cahirciveen.
On receipt of the Government's decision on 21 July, I immediately informed the Legal Aid Board of the decision and subsequently had discussions with the chairperson and chief executive of the board and with representatives of one of the unions concerned. Discussions involving senior management and staff of the board, officials of my Department and of the Department of Finance, which are ongoing, are aimed towards the smooth implementation of the transfer which will require careful planning to ensure continuity and quality of service.
The reason I did not consult the board in advance is that it was not possible to anticipate the Government's decision in the matter. If I had proceeded with prior consultation with all the parties concerned, including the Legal Aid Board, and it transpired that the Government was not prepared to entertain the proposal, then consultation would have been clearly seen to be inappropriate. As regards publication of the impact assessment report, the board has indicated it is prepared to have the report published.
(Mayo): I support decentralisation which has been successful. However, this is the wrong office for decentralisation and the issue has been wrongly handled. Why did the Minister not have the decency or courtesy to consult the board in advance of announcing the decision to move the board and its employees 222 miles to the other end of the country? Does he not realise that consultation with the staff in advance is always part of decentralisation? Does he realise the annoyance and anger his gauche ham-fisted handling of this issue has generated among the staff?
The reason I did not consult the staff, their representatives or the Legal Aid Board prior to the decision is obvious. I did not have a decision and it would be inappropriate for me to engage in negotiations or consultations about a Government decision which had not been made.
As regards the wild claim by the Deputy that staff will be moved more than 200 miles, no member of the staff will the requested to move against his or her will. The redeployment of staff to Cahirciveen will occur throughout the Civil Service and will be on foot of an individual's choice. In addition, consultations will and have been taking place with the various interested parties to ensure a smooth transfer. There were other decentralisations in the past and I am not aware of previous consultations taking place prior to those occurring.
Did the Minister take into account when making his decision that there was a 23 month waiting list for the Newbridge law centre, a 22 month waiting list for the South Mall law centre in May and other long waiting lists throughout the country? Did he consider that the board was already experiencing difficulties in recruiting solicitors and that it was trying to extend the private practice system around the country? The board was seriously concerned about a number of issues and this House consistently raised the issue of waiting times for law centres. Surely it was an inappropriate time to disrupt the work of the Legal Aid Board? The response of the board indicates it was a seriously disruptive action to take. Did the Minister consider those points when making his decisions and putting his proposals to the Cabinet?
One should not confuse the issue of law centres with the administration of the Legal Aid Board. The Legal Aid Board is concerned with administration and it has been concluded by the impact assessment, which the board sought, that the legal services, finance, organisation, personnel records and administration can be effectively handled from the Cahirciveen office. Deputy O'Sullivan is seeking to confuse the issue of waiting lists and law centres with the administration of the Legal Aid Board, which is disingenuous.
I am sure Deputy O'Sullivan would not consider that the 550 jobs which were decentralised to Limerick in 1991 should be brought back to Dublin nor would Deputy Jim Higgins consider that the 100 jobs which went to Ballina from the Department of the Environment and Local Government should be returned to Dublin. If we are to revitalise smaller provincial towns, then we must look at credible means of doing so. Decentralisation is one such way. The small number of jobs in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform relative to the Civil Service will have a considerable bearing on the future prosperity of the town concerned. It is part of the programme for Government that such small decentralisations should occur in smaller towns. I ask the Deputies to make their points but not to confuse the issue or use smokescreens to engage in what can only be described as base politics.
(Mayo): Does the Minister not realise this is a case of horses for courses or Departments for particular locations? This is the wrong Department to locate 222 miles away. Can he not see that it has been rejected out of hand by everyone? It has been rejected out of hand, for example, by the Civil & Public Service Union, which accused him of blatant political expediency, and by the Public Service Executive Union which took umbrage at the Minister's observation that the service could be provided from the moon by remote control. Deputy O'Sullivan's observations about the quality of service being infringed upon do not come from her or me but from officials in free legal aid centres who have said that the consequences will be longer waiting lists and an increased waiting time. How many staff have opted for transfer and how many have declined? Does the Minister accept there will be increased training costs, with the probability of a large number of employees of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development in Kerry having to be retrained to work in the Tralee centre?
I am appalled Deputy Higgins should use this platform to misquote various reputable organisations.
(Mayo): Exact quotations.
Nobody, to my knowledge, has rejected this proposal out of hand, other than Deputy Higgins and, to a lesser extent, Deputy O'Sullivan. The reality is that the impact assessment report which was sponsored by the Legal Aid Board states that many of the functions can be operated successfully or effectively—
(Mayo): From the moon.
—from Cahirciveen and consultations are taking place in that respect.
Did the Minister say the moon?
There have been considerable advances in technology, particularly recently, and video conferencing etc.—
Interstellar communications.
—have become part and parcel of communication. For example, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has its accounts division in Killarney and is operating extremely effectively from there – I can testify the cheques are never late. Videolink conferences regularly take place between that division of the Department and the Department in Dublin and other Departments which have been decentralised. To baldly state that everyone is against this is untrue. However, it gives me no pleasure to say that the people of south Kerry will know where they stand and will be able to judge by the evidence of the statements made by Deputies Higgins and O'Sullivan that their parties are opposed to decentralisation. It is extraordinary that the then Fianna Fáil administration—
Deputy O'Donoghue need not worry, Deputy Healy-Rae will get the credit.
—arranged for 50 jobs in the agriculture sector to be transferred from Brussels in 1993 and the incoming Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton, decided in 1995 they should be transferred to Grange, County Meath. I did not hear from Deputies O'Sullivan or Higgins then.
Our party is in favour of decentralisation, as I am sure is Fine Gael, but appropriate decentralisation. The Legal Aid Board stated "the disruption and dislocation caused by this transfer will impede the capacity of the board to effectively manage the service". One cannot separate the administration of a service from its operation, which is, in effect, what the Minister said in his reply to my initial question. Operation and administration are interwoven. Will the Minister admit, in light of the response, it will be very difficult to operate the service, particularly one that is already in crisis because of the waiting times in law centres?
No, that is a nonsensical and false accusation. The impact assessment states that most of the functions can operate effectively from Cahirciveen. It states that a small office will have to be retained in Dublin. In order to ensure the transfer will be as smooth as possible, effective and efficient, I have taken on board the proposals contained in the impact assessment.
(Mayo): How many staff have opted—
The Land Registry was decentralised to Waterford and the vast majority of the staff had to be retrained in the difficult process of registration of title. They were retrained and I am delighted to report that all the staff who transferred to Waterford are quite happy and working efficiently and effectively. The tenor of the questions is more to do with creating a smokescreen than anything else.
I consistently raised the issue last year.
