Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Oct 1999

Vol. 509 No. 5

Order of Business (Resumed).

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 27, Údarás na Gaeltachta (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill, 1999 [Seanad], Order for Report and Report and Final Stages (Resumed); No. 26, motion re. Partnership for Peace and the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council (Resumed); No. 28, Companies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1999, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 29, Education (Welfare) Bill, 1999 [Seanad], Second Stage (Resumed) and No. 30, statements on European Summit (Tampere), to be taken following the announcement of matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the order shall resume thereafter.

It is also proposed notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the proceedings on No. 30, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 70 minutes and the statements shall be confined to the following Members, who shall be called upon in the following sequence, and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the statements of the Taoiseach and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; and (ii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; (2) in the event that the proceedings on No. 26 have not concluded by 7 p.m., the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted upon the conclusion of proceedings on No. 26 or at midnight, whichever is the earlier; and (3) the Dáil on its rising today, shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 2 November 1999. Private Members' Business shall be No. 74, motion re. nurses' dispute (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

Following the meeting this morning, I thank the Whips and the party leaders for the arrangements agreed for tomorrow. The Whips said that because of the issues involved perhaps it might be necessary to meet next week and that they will keep in touch. If the circumstances warrant it, we will be prepared to ask the Ceann Comhairle to assemble the House on Wednesday or Thursday next.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I clarify that?

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

If the nurses are still on strike next week, the Fine Gael Party will not be happy if the House does not sit. This is the biggest industrial dispute in the nation's history and Ministers must be in a position to give an account to the House of what is happening. The Fine Gael Whip – I am sure this is also the case with the Labour Party Whip and others – has sought a procedure whereby the House would sit next week. Respecting the recent tradition of having a break in the Dáil session to allow for the taking of committee business, I have some difficulty understanding how the Taoiseach proposes to operate this proposal. It is my understanding that if we agree to this motion, the House will adjourn until 2 November. The only way the House—

An Ceann Comhairle

It would be more appropriate for the Deputy to wait until I put proposal No. 3.

Mr. J. Bruton

I was just about to finish my sentence. I would be most grateful, Sir, if you would allow me to finish. I am not going to make a long speech. I do not think it is possible, other than by means of special summons, for the Dáil to be summoned next week. Is the Taoiseach proposing, after consultation with the Opposition parties, to issue a special summons to summon the Dáil back – quite a heavy logistical procedure – to give effect to the assurance he has just given the House? How does he propose to give effect to the assurance he has just given the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to put to the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I wish to speak on No. 3 before it is taken.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have not arrived at that yet. Is the proposal for dealing with item 30 agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

Yes.

Mr. Quinn

Since the Order has been changed and we do not have a copy of the up-to-date Order, perhaps, Sir, you would specify what item 30 actually is?

An Ceann Comhairle

Item 30 is statements on the European summit.

Mr. Quinn

Agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with item 26, partnership for peace, agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

There is no closure on that.

Mr. Quinn

I am trying to be helpful but to do so we need information. As I understand it, if there are no speakers offering after 8.30 p.m. the vote will be taken. Is it intended that the vote will be called when speakers are no longer offering? Irrespective of that, the vote will be taken at midnight.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, the proposal does not—

Mr. Quinn

It is open ended, so there is no guillotine as such.

Mr. S. Brennan

There is no guillotine.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no proposal to close the debate.

Mr. Quinn

We can sit as late as midnight if necessary. If there are speakers still offering that item will be adjourned for another day.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with item 26 agreed. Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

I will not repeat what I have said, but I have a concern. I accept the Taoiseach's good faith when he says that, regardless of this decision, he will adhere to the agreement made between the Whips to the effect that the Dáil will be recalled next week if the nurses' strike is still on, but I am unclear as to how he proposes to give effect to that assurance.

Mr. Quinn

We have altered our business rightly and properly to pay tribute to the former Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, and the House will not sit tomorrow as a result of this order going through, notwithstanding that many people would wish to visit the House tomorrow. My concern is along the lines already expressed by Deputy Bruton. I am not clear as to the precise mechanism the Taoiseach will use to facilitate an orderly recall of the Dáil next week. Monday is a bank holiday and polling day in the Dublin South Central by-election is on Wednesday. The normal procedure is that the House does not sit on polling day in a by-election or on a Tuesday after a bank holiday. I do not know if the Taoiseach and the Whips office have had time to consider when we might be in a position to resume if there is business to which this House should give its attention. Will the Taoiseach elaborate on the mechanism we can put in place today to order business so that, if necessary, a recall of the Dáil next week can be effected?

The Taoiseach

Just to clarify, the order is that the House will meet on 2 November at 2.30 p.m. Given the arrangements we have made for tomorrow, which I appreciate, I understand that if circumstances – the Whips did not specify what they would be, Deputy Bruton raised the issue of the nurses' dispute – warrant it next week and it is felt desirable that we should meet, we will give the order to do so. We can keep in touch through the Whips.

Mr. Shatter

That is not good enough.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is for the House, not the Taoiseach, to decide when it sits.

The Taoiseach

I was trying to be helpful. The Whips agreed the House would meet on Tuesday week, as stated in the Order. We will vote on that in the normal course. I would say to Deputy Bruton it is only in recent times that we have had a break during mid-session. In recent decades the House used to come back on the third or fourth week of October but in the past few years it has come back in the last week of September. The House, therefore, is sitting about three weeks longer in the autumn session than it ever did before, and the committees also meet, which normally did not happen. I do not care what mechanism is used but if the Whips believe we should sit for a day next week, we can make whatever arrangement is necessary.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is too vague to say "if the Whips agree that it is warranted". What is warranted? How does the Taoiseach know whether it is warranted? The House should decide whether it will sit next week. An amendment should be made to this motion to the effect that if the nurses strike is still on, the House will meet at least one day next week. That should be added to the motion and we can agree on that basis to an adjournment until 2 November. The summoning of this House is a matter for this House. It is not something that can be delegated to any other body whether it be Whips or Taoisigh. The sitting times of this House are determined here by this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would point out that the only way the House can meet before 2 November, if this motion is passed, is by special summons to me as Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. Quinn

It is precisely because of our awareness of that fact, a Cheann Comhairle, that Deputy Bruton and I are proposing that we order business now to provide for a meeting next week. I cannot, as such, propose an amendment to the Order of Business – that is the Government's prerogative – but I ask the Taoiseach to propose that if the nurses dispute is still ongoing, the House will sit next Wednesday and, failing that, that the House will resume on Tuesday week as normal. The Order of Business would then be clear and explicit. We will meet next Wednesday at the normal time if the nurses dispute is ongoing. If not, we will resume plenary sessions on the following Tuesday. I propose that to the Taoiseach.

Mr. Allen

The Taoiseach is asking us to sign a blank cheque.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair would like to point out that there cannot be a conditional amendment. There can be an amendment to fix a definite date but it cannot be conditional.

The Taoiseach

If the nurses dispute is still on, I give an assurance that we will sit on Thursday of next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that satisfactory?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I raised this matter in the House yesterday and it is important that we have absolute clarity—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should indicate whether he is supporting or opposing the motion. He cannot be—

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I have equal right to make a contribution on this matter as any other speaker.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Leader of the Opposition and the other leaders have been given the floor to make points but the Deputy cannot proceed with a statement.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is not a statement. It is putting the case that we should not take a decision not to sit next week. We have heard a number of erroneous excuses to the effect that there is a by-election taking place next Wednesday. There is no basis for that. We have had three by-elections since this Dáil took office.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a statement which is not in order on the Order of Business.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The only position we can take with the serious situation the country is currently in vis-à-vis the ongoing nurses strike is that the Dáil should not take any break in the coming week. It should sit both on Wednesday and Thursday in line with normal procedure. I urge that we reject the argument in regard to No. 3 on the Order of Business. The matter is too grave and let us hope—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is proceeding with statements and we cannot have statements.

Mr. J. Bruton

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, what is the notice period required for the issuance of a special summons?

An Ceann Comhairle

There have been instances of very short notice.

Mr. J. Bruton

Like 24, 48 hours?

An Ceann Comhairle

Twenty-four hours.

Mr. J. Bruton

On that basis I think we can agree to the Taoiseach's suggestion.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): By way of clarification, as far as I am concerned, there is no Leader of the Opposition in this Dáil. Deputy Bruton is not my leader.

Mrs. Owen

Are you it?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): No.

Mr. Cowen

Trotsky never believed in having an opposition.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The votes of the people of Dublin West are of equal value to the votes from—

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I had to say that because the votes of the people of Dublin West are of equal value to the votes of County Meath or anywhere else.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): There should be no conditionality about it.

An Ceann Comhairle

A statement such as that is not in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Dáil returned only two weeks ago.

Mr. Quinn

After the work one of the committees of this House has done on behalf of all of us, it should be clearly understood that the Dáil is meeting next week in committee. What we are debating now is the issue of a plenary session, and the convention over recent years is that every fourth week is a week of exclusive committee commitment and not a plenary session. In view of the nurses' industrial dispute what we are now discussing is a mechanism whereby, if necessary, the plenary session of the Dáil can be convened next week. On behalf of the Labour Party, I accept the assurance given by the Taoiseach that he will take whatever device is open to him to reconvene a plenary session of the Dáil next Thursday.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil today agreed?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No. I have to protest that—

Question put and declared carried.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I congratulate the Taoiseach on the remarkable restraint shown by the Minister for Finance who has managed, in 24 hours, not to insult the nurses in the course of their strike.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order on the Order of Business.