The Comhairle Bill seeks to establish a new statutory authority through the merger of the National Social Services Board and the transfer of certain functions from the NRB.
Comhairle Bill, 1999: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Another quango.
The National Disability Authority Act, 1999, from which the establishment of Comhairle arises, is designed to empower and enable people with disabilities to achieve and exercise their economic, social, political and civil rights. This must be welcomed. The Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities concluded that public attitudes toward disability are still based on charity rather than on rights and the odds are stacked against people with disabilities at almost every turn. Whether their status is looked at in terms of economics, information, education, mobility or housing, they are treated in certain cases as second class citizens. They want and are entitled to equality and full participation as citizens.
It is important to realise that knowledge is power and that for people with disabilities access to information is critical to their equality and full participation as citizens. It is important that the primary function of Comhairle, as set out in the Bill, is that of an information provider especially targeted at providing clear, accurate and comprehensive advice to people with disabilities. The philosophy of the Centre for Independent Living is that it is the right of all persons, regardless of age, type or extent of disability, to live in the community as opposed to living in an institution; to have the same rights and choices available to everyone else in relation to housing, transportation, education and employment; to be able to participate in the social, economic and political life of their communities with all the duties and privileges this entails and to unfold their potential.
When the Minister visited Sligo he published a newsletter on the old age pension, which is commendable. The Minister has done a great deal in increasing awareness since he entered office. There was a good reaction to that newsletter. A similar publication in an easy to read form for people with disabilities, outlining their entitlements and the services available to them would be of considerable benefit. So many associations and groups provide services for the disabled and a simple booklet outlining who they could contact in different regions as regards their entitlements would be an excellent idea. Perhaps the Minister will consider that. I must give credit to the commitment of the staff at the social welfare office in Sligo and the pensions section. The services are very much customer-based. The senior citizens in Sligo appreciated the effort put into the newsletter. People like to feel they can access information without any constraints.
Accessing information can be difficult at the best of times, never mind in a time of crisis. People suddenly find themselves in the role of carers following an accident or sudden illness and may be unsure of the help and support to which they are entitled. A once-off publication in this regard would be of tremendous benefit. Independent advice will be provided by this new agency. The Minister also visited the citizens' information centre in Sligo on another occasion. We are lucky to have an excellent centre in Sligo. I send a great number of my constituents to the centre where the staff are highly professional and reassuring. It provides a wonderful service. The staff have the expertise to comprehensively deal with queries which is important. Hopefully this Bill will empower people with disabilities and give them the same access and professional approach which is so necessary.
Almost 1,000 disabled people are trained annually but cannot get jobs. The Minister should look at this. The Employment Equality Act will come into force soon and the local authorities are meet ing the 3% quota. However, despite this, last year 938 people with disabilities did not proceed into any further training or employment; a similar outcome is expected this year. This is a major task for the Department. There is a huge number of job vacancies, particularly in the services sector. There should be an incentive to encourage employers to take on disabled people. They could be placed in supermarkets, hotels or restaurants. They could be matched with jobs and tax breaks should be given to employers . I do not suggest there should be preferential treatment, but it is disappointing for people who have undergone training when they cannot find a job. I ask the Minister to examine this area.
The NRB will disappear under the new arrangements but the Minister must be careful when it comes to the division of people into categories. Some areas will be dealt with by FÁS and there is a need to avoid a conflict of interest. FÁS has done fantastic work in the training area. It is recognised as a wonderful training organisation. In the formation of the new board, it is important that there is a clear distinction regarding its role.
The role of carers in communities is most important. There is plenty of money in the new £40 billion national plan for roads, railways, sewerage systems and housing but we must not forget the people who most need help at this time. They are the most vulnerable people in society. Funds have been targeted at this area, but there is a need for additional funding and benefits particularly as we approach the new millennium.
We must remember that 1,273 people urgently require personal assistance services. This issue is most important. There is a huge demand for resource centres and residential respite care. A total of 3,500 people are in urgent need of a break. We must not forget that the people who care for family members and friends also need help.
I received a letter today from the resource centre in Carton village in Sligo which states that unless it gets new funding in the new year, its existence is threatened. Its existing funding from Area Development Management Limited and the Combat Poverty Agency through the EU special support programme for peace and reconciliation finishes in June next year. Its current FÁS community employment scheme also finishes in June next year. The letter asks if I am aware of the proposed cutbacks in community employment schemes. It states that if it does not get a roll over regarding the FÁS scheme and the peace and reconciliation funding, it will find itself with little staff or resources to run the centre from June next year.
FÁS does an enormous amount of work and the certainty of having people to work on projects under these schemes provides reassurance to organisations. There is much concern regarding the establishment of new schemes after old ones finish because organisations can only re-employ 10% of existing FÁS staff. For example, if there are 20 FÁS staff, only two can be re-engaged. It would be beneficial to organisations if the number which could be re-employed were higher. This problem affects resource centres and associations dealing with disabled people. For example, the Irish Wheelchair Association needs staff but only 10% can be reinstated annually. This places huge pressure on the organisation for the first few months while new recruits are trained to a level of competency where they can provide adequate care.
The Minister is holding a national information day on 29 November, the theme of which is building a future together. It will discuss the commitment at national and European levels to enhancing the position of people with disabilities. It will also provide a forum to discuss issues of concern to people with disabilities and review progress and initiatives taken during the year regarding disability equality. It is important in the deliberations not to forget that 360,000 people have disabilities and special needs arising from them – this includes people with disabilities, carers, parents and organisations.
The purpose of the Bill is to establish a statutory authority involving the merger of the National Social Services Board and the transfer of certain functions of the NRB. It is important that the authority provides readily accessible information to people with disabilities so that they are aware of their entitlements. It is important that people are fully involved in policy and decision making on every issue that affects them. The right of self-determination of people with disabilities is important and there is a need to promote disability awareness in the wider community, to fight for equity for all citizens nationally and locally in the employment, training and education areas and to ensure justice and equality for all people with disabilities. This is a crucial area which must not be overlooked.
The strategy for equality was drawn up by people with disabilities and includes 402 recommendations. It is important to take on board the core objectives which would benefit so many people who need help. The Bill covers the definition and role of the philosophy of independent living and carers. Many of them were present in the gallery for last night's debate and they feel they are being left behind. We must change that, particularly as the economy is doing so well and there is a new £40 billion national development plan.
Section 7 states that the new board will promote greater accessibility, co-ordination and public awareness of social services and of information and advice services provided by statutory and voluntary bodies. This is most important. Regarding accessibility, the new centres will not be physically close to all centres of population and will not serve all remote rural areas. It is important that people in remote areas are fully aware of benefits. It is essential that the new body works in close co-operation with the voluntary bodies to ensure that it has an active role in the provision of information.
Voluntary agencies providing services to people with disabilities come into daily or weekly contact with many people who require advice or assistance either for themselves or family members. It is essential that the body ensures the voluntary agencies are provided with targeted, focused information packs that are tailored to meet the client base of each voluntary agency regardless of whether they deal with physical, sensory or intellectual disabilities or people with dementia or mental illness. It is a huge task and I appreciate that the Minister is doing his best to improve the situation. Given the wealth of information, it is most important that a simple publication is available which would provide easily accessible information. The Minister circulated an information booklet on entitlements for the elderly. A similar booklet could be provided to every person in receipt of disability allowance outlining contact points and their entitlements.
Disability affects every community and it is a huge problem. In Sligo many groups are fighting the causes of people with disabilities. The allocation of funding for the provision of more public health nurses throughout the county would relieve the pressure on geriatric hospitals and nursing homes. Carers are not adequately paid for the work they do. In some instances they are paid as little as £2 per hour, even though the minimum wage is now £4 per hour. If there was a proper wage structure for carers the service would greatly improve. The Government should increase the allowance for personal care assistants where people need care on a 24 hour basis. This would relieve the increasing demands on health boards to provide hospital care for these people. For a relatively small amount of money people in need could be looked after in their own communities. Carers should get some form of recognition by way of an increase in their allowance. Funding should be made available for the home help service whereby lunch could be provided for old people living alone or those with disabilities who cannot cook a lunch themselves. The Bill does not deal with this issue. There must be greater awareness of the needs of people with disabilities. From speaking with the Minister, I am aware he has a clear understanding of the needs of people with disabilities. His Department has a huge budget and he could make a difference as Minister by indicating at Cabinet where funds should be targeted to get the best value for money.
Attention must be paid to this issue. At a time when the economy is booming, we must fight for the cause of those less well off than ourselves, people who feel marginalised and left behind. Given the Government's present budget, much can be done in this area. The Government should be a caring Government and live up to its responsibility to those who need personal assisance and care.
My contribution will be brief because the main features of the Bill have been adequately discussed. There have been generous contributions from all sides of the House in acknowledging that the Minister has shown he has a particular interest in making progress in this area. This might be a slight Bill, nevertheless it is extremely important. At the outset, I wish to pay tribute to the work done over the years by the National Social Service Board. The NSSB has provided valuable information in areas where other agencies have failed. I look forward to the NSSB and the NRB, in their new framework, making real progress in the years ahead.
I support the Minister's aims in this legislation. There is a fundamental problem with all bureaucratic agencies, irrespective of how well intentioned they may be, whether in the public or private sector. Over time, public and private sector bureaucracies become more focused on the institutional needs of the agencies themselves rather than on the needs of their client base. This happens in all sectors. It does not happen because there is a conspiracy to deny clients information or service, it is an inevitable by-product of bureaucratic structures. Where the client base suffers a particular challenge or disability, the problems of bureaucracy become even more pressing. Those of us who have served on health boards can bear witness to that.
Another problem in the public sector is that of institutional fragmentation. There is confusion among organisations, frequently well meaning organisations, which have territorial remits that sometimes overlap and cause confusion to the client. Another problem in the public sector frequently arises in relation to information, notwithstanding the fact that the Freedom of Information Act has been in operation for some years. I have some criticisms of that Act. Customers of many public service agencies are often badly served in relation to information. Real efforts have been made to improve this service. Deputy Perry paid generous tribute to the welcome initiative of the Minister and his Department on the pensioners booklet. That is an exemplary example of what should be done by public service agencies. I take this opportunity to put on record my personal appreciation of what the Minister and his officials have done in that regard.
In this Bill the Minister is addressing the three issues of confusion, client orientation and the information service. The aims and objectives of the Bill do not deserve the rather precious debate during part of the contributions today on the issue of its title. It seems it matters not what an agency is called as long as it is structured in a way that will give it a clear focus. One of the things this Bill does is it produces a very clear focus. I draw Deputy Durkan's attention to the clarity in section 7 which in many ways is a model for legislation. It provides this new agency with an effective mission statement. It has a great deal to commend it. The section focuses the Comhairle on two significant areas, information and advocacy. As Deputy Durkan knows – I had the pleasure of serving in his company for many years on the health board – information—
It was a mutual pleasure.
—and advocacy are of critical importance. These are particularly important to people with disabilities and to their families and carers. It is sometimes virtually impossible to obtain information as to the extent of rights because they are spread across a number of agencies and it is difficult to get someone to advocate the case. The provisions in the section as to the nature of the agency, its intent and focus are very welcome.
I wish to draw the attention of Deputies to the manner in which this same section deals with the issue of information. I chair the SMI committee and I do not believe that committee or the SMI section could write a better remit for an information provider. It provides that the information must be accurate, comprehensive and clear. If these three objectives are achieved, it will mean a remarkable change in the affairs of the State. It is important also that the information is relevant and focused. All too frequently official communications fall short on all three counts. In far too many agencies the information provided to their client base is inadequate. Far too many public service agencies guard information about their services as jealously as one would guard the last remaining copy of the formula for eternal youth. They forget that they are there to provide a service to the public. Information supplied by public service agencies, even with the improvements in recent years, is all too frequently couched in bureaucratic terms and confused by jargon. This makes it virtually incomprehensible, therefore the information is not information, it is simply frustration. I pay tribute to the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs and his immediate predecessors for the striking improvements that have taken place in that Department.
Information for people with disability poses additional challenges, first, because there are so many different public sector agencies involved, second, because of the individual needs of the client and, third, because all too frequently people who find themselves with a disability are disadvantaged in a number of other areas. It is important, therefore, to make a special effort to improve information in this regard. This agency has a clear remit in regard to information. I welcome that remarkably progressive step. Notwithstanding quibbles which we might have on points of detail on all sides of the House, I think that would be genuinely and honestly recognised.
I also want to make a brief reference to the advocacy role. The advocacy role which is outlined for this new agency is very important. All too frequently at present the advocacy role is either left to voluntary organisations, which are frequently poorly funded, or to public representa tives who have a myriad of other issues with which to deal. By specifying this role of Comhairle the Minister is adding an additional resourced focused advocacy agency for people with a disability. That is a welcome and worthwhile improvement and I compliment the Minister on it.
It strikes me that the strategic review is a significant and important provision. Section 8 effectively puts the strategic review of services in this area on a statutory basis. I certainly welcome that as would most Members of the House. Many public services start off well, continue into decline and then rumble on into the far distant background. They seem to lose their focus. It is difficult for a public service agency, bogged down as it inevitably will be with day to day detail, to actual abstract itself sufficiently from the pressure of that detail to perform the strategic review function. This is a critically important role which the Minister has given and I compliment him on isolating this function and specifying in law that we will have an agency which will have responsibility for that.
There are, as Deputy Perry pointed out by quoting various statistics, a third of a million people in the State with disabilities and special needs arising from them. When one is talking about people with disabilities, one is talking about a huge community, not just about the people themselves, their immediate families and their carers but about all of those who surround them. In a State which is making progress on the economic front, ultimately we will be valued by the amount of resources, time, effort and organisation we put into servicing the needs of people who are less fortunate than others. This is progressive legislation. I compliment the Minister on it. I commend the Bill and I hope other Members will do likewise.
I am glad to see that a Department, for which I had some small responsibility in the past, is still alive and well, doing its job and pushing out the boat with new horizons in mind. However, I am not so sure that it has not slipped and fallen by the wayside in one respect because I have inquired of a number of people and I have had various explanations of the name of the structure. I tried to figure out from where the name came. I have heard a number of explanations and I have come to the conclusion that perhaps the Office of the Ceann Comhairle may be an inspiration for the name and they just left out the first word. That would be complimentary. I wondered would the name have originated from comhairle ceantar. That would be a serious development and I would be a little worried about the machinations it might get into in the future. It is Comhairle, as in adviser or consiliero.
Be that as it may, the question of imparting information is important – other speakers have referred to that – and Comhairle has a vital role to play in ensuring that the public, that is people with disabilities and able bodied people, have some idea of their rights and entitlements. However, it does not bestow rights or entitlements on these people. For example, can it be said that people with a disability have an entitlement to easy access to public transport? The Bill, I am sorry to say, will do nothing for such people.
In recent times a great deal of time and energy has rightly been spent on the needs and requirements of people with disabilities. Last night there was a debate on carers who provide an essential service to people with disabilities. We can have all the reports, discussions and quangos in the world but if there is no means of delivering the entitlement to the person concerned, then it is all for nothing. A number of questions emanate from any discussion on a Bill of this nature, the first of which is the one to which I have just referred, that is, the entitlement of people with disabilities to access trains and buses in the public transport service. Can anybody in this House answer this question? It is relatively easy because public transport is very restricted. In fact these people enjoy virtually no access, or very limited access, to public transport. How widespread is the availability of access to public and private buildings for people with disabilities? Can a person confined to a wheelchair travel around this city, use public and private transport and gain access to all public buildings? The answer is no. Therefore, while on the one hand we are imparting the information and telling them what they should be entitled to, we are not providing them or others with the wherewithal to provide these entitlements.
I again emphasise the importance of information, but the imparting of the information only gives the individual some indication of how little access they have to what they are entitled. That opens up a new vista. Information is supposed to mean empowerment and, to some extent, it does mean that. It empowers the person to look for what they are entitled.
With regard to the provision of housing for the disadvantaged, people with disabilities and others, approximately 10% of the people who require housing can have their needs met. Therefore, people will be told to what they are entitled due to their circumstances but they must refer to another agency, body or quango to find out to what extent their entitlement will be curtailed by virtue of the limited availability of supply. That is a critical aspect of the provision of services for anybody. The other 90% are given information about their entitlement but told that there are limitations on the extent to which we can provide the service at present. That is a worrying aspect. It tends to engender in people's minds a contempt for the political system because people are not so foolish as to go on believing in something if they feel disappointed by what is laid before them. The disappointment in these cases is as I have outlined it. There is the theory that the information is being made available to people first so that they will know their entitlements and then further information is made available by some body else which immediately makes them aware of the limitation of their entitlements.
This needs to be looked at carefully, particularly when dealing with people with disabilities. Such people have special needs and concerns and they have special worries at all times, some of which relate to their future. It would be dangerous to trifle with those concerns and fears, particularly when it comes to what we tell them. I needed go over the contents of last night's debate, of which the Minister will be aware. He understands the situation.
Deputy Carey, as he was leaving the House, was heard muttering, "Another quango" and, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you and I know what quango has come to mean over the years in this House. The late Deputy Brian Lenihan regularly referred to how quangos did or did not work and how they were never accountable. That was Deputy Lenihan's major quibble with such agencies which are still a problem because they fall outside the remit of the House and are not accountable to it. Evidence of this can be seen by the daily disallowance of parliamentary questions because "the Minister has official responsibility to the House" in respect of the matter raised. The Minister is accountable to the House for every penny of his Department's Vote, not to quangos or agencies which produce glossy annual reports.
People used to say that a camel was a horse designed by a committee. If that is the case, a quango is a committee designed by a horse or a camel. In so far as accountability is concerned, there is something defective in terms of the way these agencies operate. When quangos are being established in the future, great consideration should be given to the manner and methodology whereby they and the Minister are made responsible to the House. Unless that is done, the House will become completely irrelevant. We will be faced with a situation where Ministers will go outside the House to do their business. It has been suggested that this is already happening because most announcements are made outside the House and Members only receive the relevant information secondhand. If that is the way people wish to operate, that is fine. However, that is not the way a Parliament should operate. Someone must answer for every penny voted by the national Parliament to each Department. The ultimate responsibility in such circumstances must be to the House or further problems will arise.
The Bill before us may achieve one thing in that it regulates, on a statutory basis, the provision of particular services to a specific group of people. The provision of information to these people will hopefully be of benefit to them but it may also be of benefit to the wider community. There used to be a suggestion that people with disabilities are a burden on society, but the position is quite the reverse. These people represent a possible economic benefit to society, provided they are given the wherewithal to realise their potential. If they are not allowed to do so, they will obviously become a burden.
It is important to recognise that when we lay down provisions in law, these should mean something to the people for whom they are intended. If it should transpire that the people at whom the information is targeted become disappointed with the manner in which it is delivered, with its impact or its meaning, serious problems will arise for those who produce the information. If such information does not deliver what it purports to deliver, the entire system will fail. The concept is not a bad one but, unless there is an agreed programme to provide for the needs identified, it will fail. It is like saying to someone, "You would be entitled to X, Y or Z if we had A, B or C in place". Putting proper systems in place is the key to solving problems in this area in the future.
Let us now consider access to hospitals and equality of access to hospital services for people with disabilities or the elderly. People who qualify for free travel have no difficulty travelling to their local hospital but they must make their journey at 8 a.m. or 9 a.m. when it is not technically possible for the free travel system to operate. They qualify for free travel and they can use the service, but not when they wish to do so. I cannot understand the reasoning behind this. It would be much more logical for hospitals to ensure that these people are brought in at a later stage of the day. This would avoid their disrupting hospital services, on one hand, or disrupting their own lives by being obliged to sit in a waiting area from 8 a.m. or earlier. That is a typically classic example of the way the system works.
I hope the members of Comhairle will realise that there is no point putting on paper something that means nothing to the people for whom it was intended.
I thank the Deputies who made constructive contributions to the debate.
Deputies Durkan and Perry referred to the word "quango" and I know they were not in any way suggesting that the NSSB or the NRB were quangos. I guarantee Members that Comhairle is not another quango, it is an amalgamation of two excellent organisations. Most people accept that this is a step in the right direction.
A number of Members referred to the Title of the Bill and the name of the new board. The Title was chosen because we wanted to emphasise the issues of advice and advocacy. We could have chosen a longer one but we did not do so. As a number of Members stated, many people, particularly those outside the House, would not know that the NSSB was responsible for publishing the excellent publication, Relate. To a certain extent, therefore, we wanted to make the new board synonymous with information relating to social services. The Title was chosen from that point of view.
Deputy Perry and others referred to the excellent advice and information booklet issued to 311,000 old age pensioners in the past two weeks which deals with issues relating to social welfare, medical card entitlement and taxation issues relevant to old age pensioners. Since the booklet was issued, I have heard nothing but good comments about it. If my Department spends any money in the future, it will not be as well spent as that invested in the production of that publication. The reaction from Deputies on all sides bears that out.
With regard to Deputy Perry's request that we consider issuing such a booklet on disability benefit, such a publication, which relates to people with disabilities and carers, is already in train. It is hoped to issue this next year.
A number of Members inquired about the new initiatives to be undertaken by Comhairle. In the near future I will be going to Cork to launch a new free telephone information service on a pilot basis. The database within the NSSB, which will become Comhairle, will also be available on the Internet very soon.
A number of Deputies asked what the advocacy services entail – Deputy O'Keeffe asked if it would include legal representation. It does not. There is no overlap with a body such as the Legal Aid Board or private legal representation. The Comhairle representatives would assist social welfare claimants about how to go about that.
Deputy Broughan asked about the vision of the Department in this area. The document sets out in detail what we require in relation to a strategic plan. That is the way we want to move. Some speakers suggested this because it is better for those people directly involved in this area to come forward with their views as to how they see the future. The strategic plan will be laid before me and, based on that, the necessary funding will be made available to the new body.
The NSSB has been an excellent advisory organisation. In 1997 the funding amounted to £2.97 million. There was a 14% increase in the 1998 budget bringing that figure up to £3.38 million. In 1999 there was a 30% increase, bringing it to £4.37 million. The reason for those increases was that I, as Minister, believed that the NSSB was on the right track – it was extending its information database. Ultimately that will be available on the Internet and will be the linchpin of the organisation throughout the State, particularly in the CICs.
Deputy Broughan asked about consultation. There was a great deal of consultation. The staff was consulted constantly and it was on the agenda of the establishment group. Staff from both the NSSB and the NRB were also represented in the working groups. A staff information day was held in October. The Deputy also raised the issue of a worker representative. There is such a representative, no different to the NSSB over the years and I was not going to change that. There should be a staff representative on the board of the organisation.
Physical access to the buildings is an issue for the service providers and is covered by the guidelines for public bodies making themselves wheel chair friendly. Most of the 35 full-time CICs are compliant with access guidelines, although smaller offices have a mixed level of compliance. The new buildings which will be taken on board by the new body are generally compliant but this is an area which will be enhanced with the increased funding made available to the new organisation.
Some speakers veered off the subject; issues related to pharmacists were even mentioned. Time does not allow me to respond to those issues but I thank all for their contributions and look forward to the establishment of the new body.
Question put and agreed to.