Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Nov 1999

Vol. 511 No. 2

Comhairle Bill, 1999: Second Stage.

Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs (Mr. D. Ahern)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am pleased to present this Bill to the House. The Bill provides for the establishment of a new organisation, Comhairle, to combine the National Social Service Board, the NSSB, with certain disability support functions of the National Rehabilitation Board, the NRB. The proposal is one of a series of measures being undertaken by the Government to mainstream the provision of services for people with disabilities.

The Government fully supports the principle that people with disabilities are entitled to all the rights and privileges associated with citizenship and that all obstacles to the enjoyment of these privileges should be removed. These obstacles have been identified by the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities in its report "A Strategy for Equality".

That report adopted three guiding principles: equality, maximising participation and enabling independence of choice.

The Government's An Action Programme for the Millennium recognises disability as one of the most important social challenges facing us today. It includes, as stated priorities, implementation of the commission's report and achieving greater equality for people with disabilities. My colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, has specific responsibility for disability issues and is coordinating the Government's programme in implementing the commission's report across a range of Departments. Since taking up office, the Government has taken a number of significant steps in promoting equal opportunities for people with disabilities. The establishment of the National Disability Authority on a statutory basis through the National Disability Authority Act and the setting up of an interim board represent a significant step forward.

The Bill to establish Comhairle is a further significant measure in this mainstreaming process. Comhairle will be the mainstream support agency for information services for all people, including those with disabilities. It is just a part of an overall Government programme aimed at ensuring that people with disabilities are treated equally by all service providers. The primary responsibility for this rests with the service providers themselves. The NDA will have a key role in developing standards, monitoring progress and promoting awareness at all levels. Comhairle's complementary role will relate specifically to information services as it seeks to ensure that all individuals, including those with disabilities, have access to information, advice and advocacy of the highest standard.

I will review some of the more important initiatives relating to people with disabilities. On the legislation front, important advances have been made on two fronts. Last June the Employment Equality Act, 1998, was enacted. This legislation outlaws discrimination on grounds of disability in gaining access to employment and advancing in employment. It gives protection to employees in both the public and private sectors as well as to applicants for employment and training. Also, the Equal Status Bill, which has now passed Committee Stage in the House, prohibits discrimination on a number of grounds, including disability, and deals with discrimination outside the employment area, including education, provision of goods and services, accommodation and disposal of property.

In addition the Government has provided substantial funding during the past two years – more than £91 million – in developing services for those suffering from a mental or physical disability. In the review of our programme for Government, we recognise that these services must now be developed at a faster rate and we have given a firm commitment to provide substantial additional funding to address this shortfall in services. Key priorities will include the development of services for people with physical and sensory disabilities and a comprehensive disability strategy.

The establishment of Comhairle under the Bill follows from recommendations made by an establishment group set up by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in November 1997. The establishment group was asked by Government to develop detailed proposals for a new infrastructure for disability issues and to consider the most appropriate future location of departmental responsibility for the functions of the NRB. The group reported to Government in June last year. The Government adopted its report, Building a Future Together, and gave approval for the implementation of each of the recommendations.

People with disabilities wish to be treated the same as their fellow citizens by having services delivered to them by the mainstream agencies, that is, the agency that provides the service to the rest of the community. This represents a significant change of approach. In the past, the State addressed disability issues primarily from a medical perspective. Responsibility for services to people with disabilities was, therefore, placed with the Department of Health and Children, with many of the services provided by that Department through the NRB. The new mainstreaming approach now proposed is not intended to replace such measures but to operate in parallel with them. In line with this principle, the group also recommended a number of administrative measures which involve the relocation of the functions at present performed by the NRB.

One of the key elements in the proposed arrangements recommended by the establishment group was the setting up of the National Disability Authority. The authority will be the central focus of the Government's approach to the provision of services to people with disabilities. The main function of the authority will be to develop standards in services provided to people with disabilities and to conduct independent monitoring of these services. It will not be a service-providing agency but will work in close co-operation with service providers in the voluntary and statutory sectors. An interim board has been established and it is planned to have the new authority up and running within the next few months.

In line with this mainstreaming approach, the Government has decided that vocational training and employment services for people with disabilities will be provided by FÁS operating under the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. This will represent a major step in integrating people with disabilities into the workforce and enabling them to achieve independence and choice. Similarly, the information services for those with disabilities provided by the NRB, under the provisions of the Bill, will be provided through Comhairle. A number of other services will be attached to other Departments, such as the audiology service, which will be provided by the Department of Health and Children through the health boards.

The establishment group is continuing its work towards implementing the new administrative and institutional arrangements for the NDA and the mainstreaming of services. It is working closely with both management and staff of the NRB and the relevant Departments and agencies. A target date of the end of March 2000 is now envisaged for the full implementation of these series of measures which also involve a transfer of NRB resources to the various Departments and agencies, including Comhairle.

The main purpose of the Bill is the setting up of the new organisation, Comhairle, to ensure individuals have access to accurate, comprehensive and clear information, advice and advocacy services on the full range of social services. The provision of information is an essential element of the relationship between social service providers and the people who use their services. In the past this aspect of the service may not have been given the attention it deserved. However, I am pleased to say that administrators are now much more aware of the needs of their customers.

The development and delivery of social services is a complex task at the best of times. Schemes and supports are designed to meet the needs of people, individuals and families in a wide variety of circumstances and it is, therefore, necessary to ensure that supports are broadly based and flexible enough to address their needs. The downside to this is that they can often be difficult to understand and, perhaps, even more difficult to access, particularly where the benefits required are administered by more than one Department or agency. In these circumstances, the challenge is to ensure that people have access to information and advice at local level which is clear, accurate and comprehensive.

There is an onus on Departments to directly provide information and advice on their own services and there is an expectation that this would be broad enough to guide people towards related services provided by other agencies. I am sure Deputies will agree that we have seen significant improvements in this regard in recent times. However, the ownership of information is not vested in the statutory services alone, nor should it ever be. Independent sources of information can invariably offer a far more flexible and comprehensive service than any single arm of Government. It is extremely important that people have a choice in this and it is clear that, in many cases, they prefer to deal with an independent organisation either as an alternative to the statutory services or in preparation for claiming their rights and entitlements.

For many years, the NSSB has provided resources to the independent information and advice-giving sector as well as to the statutory sector. The NSSB transferred from the Department of Health and Children to my Department a few years ago. This was seen as a first step towards strengthening and developing the independent information sector. Since then, the NSSB has embarked on a strategy of significantly upgrading the support it provides for both independent and statutory information providers centres. For example, it registers and supports a network of 85 independent citizens' information centres throughout the country which provide a free, confidential and impartial information service to members of the public. This involves some 35 full-time centres which are supplemented by some 50 part-time and mobile centres.

The NSSB has also developed a computerised database, the citizens' information database, which is a comprehensive, user-friendly source of information on social services. It has become one of the mainstays of many information-giving organisations throughout the country. In addition, the board has over the years provided a wide range of services to the voluntary social ser vice sector. Its strategy in this area includes the development of a range of services to support this sector in the areas of information, training management and organisational supports.

The National Rehabilitation Board operates 18 centres which provide, as part of their remit, information, advice and advocacy services to people with disabilities. These centres are located in the larger towns throughout the country and distribute a range of information on services in a variety of formats to people with disabilities. Some of the larger centres have a display range of technical aids for those with disabilities.

I will now outline some of the main features of the Bill. The Bill is divided into three Parts. Part 1, comprising sections 1 to 5, contains standard and technical provisions. Part 2 provides generally for the functions of the new organisation, and requirements relating to the members of the board, its chief executive and staff. Part 3 includes provisions arising from the dissolution of the National Social Service Board.

Section 7 provides for the functions of Comhairle. The principal function will be to ensure individuals have access to accurate, comprehensive and clear information, advice and advocacy on the full range of social services and are referred to such services. To date, this function has been discharged by the NSSB and the NRB in a variety of ways. The first priority for Comhairle will be to ensure that there will not be any disruption of services.

An important responsibility of Comhairle will be to assist and support people, including those with disabilities, to understand their needs of the broad range of social services and to help them identify the most suitable options available to them. It will assist them in securing their entitlement to services by referring them to the appropriate agency or service provider. In this context, Comhairle will have responsibility for continuing the provision of information and advice on assistive technology for people with disabilities. This latter service is currently provided by the NRB through some of its main centres. This involves information and advice on technical aids and options for people with disabilities and providing up to date information on new technological developments.

Comhairle will also continue to perform a number of functions which are currently discharged by the NSSB. These include promoting access to information by working with other organisations in the voluntary and statutory sectors; contributing to the development of social policy through feedback from the users and providers of information and supporting voluntary organisations which deliver social services by providing a range of services on information, training and organisational development support.

Section 8 requires Comhairle to prepare and submit to the Minister strategic plans relating to its objectives and strategies. The full integration of the various functions and operations of the two components of the new organisation will be Comhairle's initial goal.

Section 9 provides for the membership of the board which will comprise 20 members including a chairperson. The board will include five members representative of people with disabilities nominated by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, an elected member of staff and a representative from my own Department. Last November, I appointed a new board to the NSSB. In anticipation of the establishment of the new organisation, I extended the membership of that board from 15 to 20 and included some five members representative of people with disabilities who were nominated by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This board is acting as the interim board of Comhairle and is currently working closely with the establishment group and my Department on the practical arrangements involved in the proposed merger of both agencies. On the establishment day, the board will become the first board of Comhairle. The section also deals with the terms of office of the members of the board who shall be appointed for a maximum period of three years.

Section 13 provides for the appointment of a chief executive of Comhairle who shall be appointed by the board. The main functions of the chief executive will be to administer the affairs of Comhairle. Section 14 provides for the appointment of staff of Comhairle.

Sections 20 to 23 are standard provisions concerning grants and the accounts and audit of the new organisation. Comhairle will be funded primarily by the Exchequer through an annual grant from my Department's Vote. The necessary resources will be drawn from those currently available to the NSSB and a transfer of funds from the Vote of the Department of Health and Children to my Department in relation to the current NRB services. The issue of additional resources will be examined in the context of the board's three year strategic plan to be prepared immediately following its establishment.

Section 24 provides for the submission by the board of an annual report to the Minister and for the laying of each such report before each House of the Oireachtas. Sections 27 to 32 deal with the dissolution of the National Social Service Board and the transfer of the staff, assets and liabilities of the board to Comhairle.

The Government is committed to achieving greater equality for people with disabilities. Under its new mainstreaming approach to service provision, the Government aims to ensure that people with disabilities are treated equally, have access to all services, including employment and training, and to comprehensive and clear information on their entitlements on the same basis as provided to the rest of society.

I express my gratitude to the NSSB for the work it has carried out since 1984 in developing an independent information sector and to the NRB for its work over the last 30 years in provid ing a dedicated service to people with disabilities. I am confident that the staff of both organisations, who will transfer to Comhairle, will continue to provide excellent standards of service for all people, including those with disabilities.

I commend the Comhairle Bill to the House.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Comhairle Bill seeks to establish a new statutory authority through the merger of the National Social Service Board and the transfer of certain functions of the National Rehabilitation Board. I pay tribute to the staff of both the NSSB and the NRB for the excellent and valuable work they have done to date in their current organisations and to wish them continued success in their new role.

The explanatory memorandum to this Bill describes it as "a key element in the new arrangements being put in place for disability services . in the interests of mainstreaming services for people with disabilities.". I want to focus on the role of mainstreaming services for people with disabilities. The National Disability Authority Act, 1999, from which Comhairle's establishment arises, is designed to "empower and enable people with disabilities to achieve and exercise their economic, social, political and civil rights.". All of the official documents and reports on the delivery of policy and services for people with disabilities have common aspirations. These are quality, accountability, effectiveness, value and partnership. The challenge for all voluntary and statutory, particularly Comhairle, is to translate these aspirations for better services for people with disabilities into a reality.

The Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities concluded that:

Public attitudes towards disability are still based on charity rather than on rights. The odds are stacked against people with disabilities and almost every turn. Whether their status is looked at in terms of economics, information, education, mobility or housing, they are treated as second class citizens. They want and are entitled to equality and full participation as citizens.

I concur with those sentiments.

It is said that knowledge is power. For people with disabilities, access to information is an essential prerequisite to their equality and full participation as citizens. It is important then that the primary function of Comhairle, that of an information provider, is specially targeted and focused at providing clear, accurate and comprehensive advice to people with disabilities.

Accessibility is a very important issue. Given that the new body will use the NSSB's citizens' information centres and NRB premises throughout the country, one hopes the premises are accessible to mobility impaired people. That does not always apply to Departments. If the above premises are not accessible to people with disabilities, the matter should be rectified without delay.

The form in which information is made available is also important. It should not be assumed that all of the people who wish to access information are literate. A man who had been hired as a temporary dust man visited my clinic last Monday. He worked away for about three months and was on six months trial, but then he got a kidney complaint towards the end of one week. He could not go to work on the Thursday or Friday and went back on the Monday with a medical certificate but the supervisor fired him. He asked why he was being fired as he had a reasonable excuse. The supervisor said that he did not notify him, that all his arrangements were upset and that he was being fired because he did not telephone him. I said to the chap, my constituent, that was not unreasonable and that he should have telephoned. He said he would tell me what he could not tell the supervisor – he could not read. That is the type of situation we tend to forget can arise. When talking about accessibility to information, we cannot assume that all those who wish to access information are literate. Recent studies have shown that a sizeable proportion of the population is functionally illiterate.

It is important that people are able to access the information they require in whatever form is most appropriate to their needs. Having said that, written information must be user friendly and clear. The NESF report No. 6 on the quality delivery of social services found that the amount of information on social services available in a user friendly form is frequently inadequate, confusing or non-existent. Sometimes excessively complicated language is used in information booklets provided by statutory authorities. It is essential that information available to people with disabilities, their families and carers is clear and comprehensive.

In our offices in the Oireachtas, we have computers and those of us who can use them, sometimes with the assistance of our secretaries, can access replies to parliamentary questions quickly through the Lotus Notes programme. When one prints a copy of a reply to a question from an important Department such as the Department of Health and Children, one is given the number of the question and the name of the Minister answering it but not the question. That is ridiculous.

I found an example on my desk yesterday which I thought I would mention. Parliamentary Question 247 of 16 November answered by the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Moffatt, leads off with the words "I have no plans to introduce legislation along the lines suggested by the Deputy" and continues with the remainder of the response. It does not, however, give the question or the name of the Deputy who tabled it. One can see how ridiculous it is that one gets a reply which reads: "I have no plans to introduce legislation along the lines suggested by the Deputy", but one does not know what legislation was suggested or who the Deputy is. That type of ridiculous format is something against which we should guard. I have no doubt Comhairle will be a little more efficient and user friendly in the information it provides than the Department of Health and Children in this particular instance.

There is a further aspect which must be raised. The new information service provision for people with disabilities needs to be targeted, in other words, Comhairle's role should be pro-active, targeting people who might benefit from services and advice. The Minister may have thought he was escaping scot-free on this front, but I would like to refer to another parliamentary question at which I looked on Tuesday. I tabled the question to the Minister's Department on the entitlement of those aged 75 years or over to free electricity and other free schemes and whether these people had been notified of their entitlement. Since 1997 people over 75 years, who are in receipt of a qualifying social welfare type payment, can receive these allowances, regardless of their household composition or medical circumstances, so it is an improvement for those in that category. The only trouble is that they must know about it. Unless somebody over the age of 75 knows of this improvement, they cannot claim it. When I checked what efforts were made to notify those over 75 years, I was told various booklets are available, that there was publicity after the budget, that there is a free telephone service and so on. That does not target that particular group which does not always listen to the radio after the budget or which is not able to access the mountain of information being pressed on the public by a Minister for Finance. Many of them do not read the booklets which are distributed. This is an example of where a benefit which is or should be available to people is not being availed of because there has not been a targeted and focused effort to make sure they are aware of their entitlements.

Having raised the issue, I was told by the Minister on Tuesday that the Department intends to issue a specific mailshot next year to all pensioners over 75 years, who are not in receipt of the free schemes, to notify them individually of their potential entitlements. I heartily approve of the decision to mailshot those over 75 years but why did it take a parliamentary question from me to encourage pro-active action by the Minister on this issue? More importantly, what about those who were over 75 years in 1997 and who may have passed away? What about those who will never be able to avail of this relaxation of the rules because they did not know about it? Why does it take three years to send a mailshot to what must be a limited number of people over the age of 75 years who are in receipt of social welfare and who might be able to avail of this relaxation of the rules?

I am sure the Minister will find it difficult to disagree that three years is a little long to be hoarding that information from the people who could avail of it. I am glad the situation is now being resolved and a mailshot will be done but I raise it as an instance of the need for a pro-active approach from the point of view of targeting people who might benefit from services or advice. I hope the example I gave will, if nothing else, serve as an example of the way not to do it in the future. I have no doubt Comhairle will not wait three years to target people and tell them about their potential entitlements.

A recurring theme of submissions to the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities was the difficulty experienced by people with disabilities and their families regarding their entitlements and services which might be relevant to them. The onus should be on the information providers to inform people with disabilities of everything to which they are entitled, in other words, they should provide blanket information and target specialist groups with particular needs, as appropriate.

Accessing information can be difficult at the best of times but at a time of crisis, it can be a nightmare. People who have a crisis in the family and who suddenly find themselves in the role of carer following an accident or sudden and debilitating illness may be unsure of the help and support to which they are entitled. It is essential that a one stop shop approach to information is taken. One telephone call or one visit, or two at most, should be sufficient to provide all the information needed.

Section 7(c) states that the new board will promote greater accessibility, co-ordination and public awareness of social services and of information, advice and advocacy services provided in relation to such services, whether by a statutory or voluntary body. This raises the matter of accessibility. The new centres will not be physically close to all centres of population and will not serve all remote rural areas – I am raising a provincial point here. It is essential the new body works in close co-operation with voluntary bodies to ensure they have an active role in information provision. That could apply in cities also but it is perhaps a more important issue in country areas.

Voluntary agencies providing services for people with disabilities come into daily or weekly contact with many people who require advice and assistance either for themselves or for family members. It is essential that Comhairle provides voluntary agencies with targeted, focussed information packs which will be tailored to meet the client base of each voluntary agency, whether they deal with people with physical, sensory or intellectual disabilities or people with dementia or mental illness.

How will independent advice be provided? Citizen information centres depend on volunteers to a large degree. Are there plans to recruit and, more important, to train volunteers in order to make them aware of the complex needs of those with disabilities? A professional service with the expertise to fully answer the questions of people with disabilities and those who care for them is required. If this is not in place, people will be shuttled from one place to another in an attempt to access full information. Thus, far from providing equality and mainstreaming, people with disabilities will be more dependent on others. Mainstreaming is only effective if it meets the needs of the most severely disabled person and this new service must meet those needs.

The Bill also provides that Comhairle will deliver advocacy services but will stop short of legal representation. We need clarification on this matter. What will happen if a person with a disability requires representation at an appeals tribunal in the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs? Comhairle is to be funded as a Government agency – can it then be truly independent? The Minister, as a legal colleague, will understand that there could be a danger of a conflict of interest here. This matter can be teased out further on Committee Stage.

I welcome the Bill and I support its passage to Committee Stage. It is essential that in the dissolution of the National Rehabilitation Board and the creation of this new structure, people with disabilities will have a net gain in service provision and that the mainstreaming objectives are achieved. It is essential that those with disabilities do not have greater hardship in accessing services or information on services, rights and entitlements. The new service must have the full confidence and support of everyone involved in this sector, not least those with disabilities themselves. It would be unforgivable if we failed them in this.

Mr. Broughan

I welcome this Bill which has been in gestation for the past two and half years and which was approved by Cabinet early this year. This is a long promised approach and ultimately goes back to the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities. As the Minister said, it leads on from the strategy for equality and the report of the establishment group in June last year.

My criticism of the Bill is in line with my past criticisms of the Government. For example, a fundamental gap in the Enterprise Ireland Bill was the failure of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to spell out a strategic vision of what Enterprise Ireland's functions would be or the task it would perform for the economy. The same fault applies to this Bill, the bulk of which is taken up with the structural establishment of an organisation. With the exception of section 7, a brief section on functions, we do not get a detailed view from the Minister or the Department on the broader role this Bill will have. The Minister will refer to the three year plans and the strategic plan and he has already given a general guide as to how he sees this body operating, but he could have included a sense of vision for the organisation in the Bill. We will return to this on Committee Stage.

I commend the National Social Service Board for its achievements in the past 30 years. Most Deputies eagerly await their copy of Relate, the information digest produced by that board, as we are all in the business of distributing information. All of us have made use of Relate over the years and the current issue has a cogent article on the Planning and Development Bill in the Seanad. As usual, the article is simple, useful and very clear. I congratulate the approximately 30 members of staff of the NSSB on their achievements since the board was established as a non-statutory body in 1971. It became a statutory body in 1984, but there were some elements in the Dáil in the mid-1980s which were not fond of the idea of having an independent advice and information network and the agency had to fight hard for its existence. However, it has played a valuable role in our society for the past 30 years and I congratulate its staff, who will have moved to Comhairle by March.

I also congratulate the National Rehabilitation Board for its achievements over roughly the same period. It has a long history of disability support and now has approximately 10,000 registered clients. Up to 10% of our population suffers from a disability of one type or other and the 52 staff members who will transfer to the new agency have shown great diligence in providing job advice and information advocacy.

Unlike the NSSB, the NRB has long had an extensive regional network of 18 offices, as the Minister said, and it has had deep involvement with its clients on a one to one level. This should have been included in the functional provisions of the Bill, as the key element of service to people with disabilities must be one to one, personalised mentoring. All our families have been touched by disability and we all have a direct interest in the issue. People suffering from a disability and those who work with them are concerned that the Minister has not spelled out the absolute necessity for a personalised service. About 60% of people with a disability are either unemployed or seriously underemployed. This highlights the nature of the task faced by the valiant workers of the NRB over the years. This House and the Minister for Education and Science have only begun to appreciate the failure to mainstream people with disabilities in education. There is often a huge gap in educational standards because of schools which were not amenable to pupils with a disability and a total lack of provision for people with serious disability. This gap needs to be closed. This aspect will be raised by the Labour Party on Committee Stage. I commend the Minister for bringing the Bill forward and on its essential concepts of independent advice, advocacy and mainstreaming the needs of those with disabilities. For too long our fellow citizens with disabilities have had to suffer grave and outrageous inequalities, which – to be fair to all parties in the House – recent Governments have tried to remedy. However, we still have a long distance to travel.

This Bill is welcome if it means genuine upgrading and consolidation of services for people on low incomes and social welfare. Our services provision for people on social welfare supports has been characterised by fragmentation. For example, a query on returning to work can take several telephone calls to various Government Departments and the health board – Deputies often have that frustrating experience in their offices. This laborious process can be extremely off-putting especially if someone is left waiting on the telephone for what seems like an age before their query is answered. Unless people with a disability have access to a telephone or an accessible building, their search for information can be an insurmountable struggle. Restriction to buildings and a lack of information in Braille form can be a frustration for disabled people.

Advice from a one-stop shop is the preferred option for people accessing information on their entitlements and options. This move to consolidate information provision is, therefore, very welcome. However, one of the key weaknesses of the Bill is the absence of a strategy for the development of the new agency. What is the Minister's commitment to training the agency staff of almost 100? The integrated staff may have different responsibilities than previously. Staff from the NRB will be redeployed to FÁS and the health boards so new staff in Comhairle may not be as familiar with giving a personalised service, providing information and trying to get someone a job. We also need to know how the agency will be developed in its initial years.

One of the most fundamental tools in going from welfare to work is information provision. The Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs is still the major information provider to those seeking income support and also has the dual function of policing payments. Last year we had a long discussion on section 26 of the Social Welfare Bill regarding the Minister's famous road blocks, about which Deputy Higgins, in particular, was very upset. However, the Minister seems to have abandoned this approach. As a former member of the Public Accounts Committee, I know long periods have been spent investigating welfare claims. This aspect lies uneasily with the concept of information provision. My experience and that of my constituents has been that in the past five to ten years, accessibility to the Department and the friendliness of the service oriented staff has improved. However, the function of information provision and benefit policing do not sit comfortably together.

Independent welfare rights provision is crucial in assisting people to enter the formal economy. Many studies have shown that people working in the black economy who wish to move into the formal economy are far less likely to approach the Department for advice, for obvious reasons. They continue to work in the informal economy and approach independent voluntary advice providers or their political representatives. On two occasions in the past six months, the Government put the future of community employment and the jobs initiative in doubt. Thankfully, under massive pressure from the Labour Party, especially my colleague, Deputy Rabbitte, lobby groups and the Opposition, the short-term future of these schemes seems to have been secured. However, if the Government considers cutbacks to these schemes, what is its commitment to independent advice centres, CICs and unemployment centres?

The Minister has made two visits to my constituency recently, one of which was to open a citizens' information centre in Coolock. Unfortunately, his visits clashed with other business in which I was engaged. We are also building new civic offices in Coolock for Dublin north-central. Has the Minister spelled out the relationship the Coolock CIC will have with Comhairle? Will there be a Comhairle office for Dublin north central? The Minister is shaking his head. If he wishes to carry on some of the traditions of the NRB, how will he equate this with the line management of this programme? Has the Minister thought this through? This is why we need a more comprehensive discussion on Committee Stage.

I mentioned the unemployment centres. I am proud to be a director of the northside centre. For nearly a decade and a half, we have had a tradition of giving good social welfare advice. Many local volunteers have become skilled in providing this information and are deeply appreciated by the people of Coolock and the northside. A centre has been provided in Beaumont Hospital for visitors and patients. I know this is referred to in section 7. A few months ago I asked the Minister on Question Time if there was some way to more directly integrate these skilled volunteers – working for the St. Vincent de Paul, trade union centres and many other organisations – into the planned Comhairle network. Will the Minister give us a commitment on the long-term staffing of the voluntary centres?

One of the problems CICs and other information providers experience is that when their staff are trained up, the CE scheme they are on ends and the cycle of training new people begins again. It is not ideal and I want to know how the Minister proposes to address it. I will refer later to the national plan and the money which the Minister sought for this area. However, the social economy and voluntary activities under the aegis of his Department need significant resources.

One of the major concerns of organisations representing people with disabilities is access to citizens' information centres and community information centres. Many of them are housed in old buildings which do not offer disability access. With only a few months to go, no plans are in place to bring CICs up to a standard which would cater for the needs of all persons with a disability. I ask the Minister to address this matter in his reply. When does he intend that work will commence on upgrading such centres?

Will the Minister outline the level of investment he intends to make available through the new organisation not only from the point of view of the adjustment work required in CIC buildings, but also the conversion of information into a format that is accessible to people with hearing and sight deficiencies? Organisations representing consumers of the NSSB and NRB have been awaiting the introduction of the Bill for some time. I have heard complaints in recent months that clients of both organisations, but particularly the NRB, feel there was not enough consultation with them before the Minister embarked on this plan and introduced the legislation. I ask the Minister to assure the House that he will offer a further consultation phase to the NSSB and NRB and their clients, particularly people with a disability, in the run up to Committee Stage. We look forward to the Committee Stage debate taking place at an early date.

A disappointing feature of the Bill is that the Minister has failed to outline a clear vision for the future of Comhairle. Section 7 outlines a number of functions but there is a long history of citizens being denied basic rights through lack of information, advice and advocacy. Deputies probably meet up to 5,000 people on a one to one basis during our constituency work each year, but tens of thousands of other people never contact us or a citizen information centre, a law centre or an unemployment action centre. I do not intend to repeat the subject matter of recent parliamentary questions to the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs but there has been the scandal of arrears in payments to widows, widowers and pensioners and the lack of take up of FIS. In addition, many people are unaware of their fuel allowance entitlements.

A number of constituents have asked me whether the Minister would consider, in conjunction with Comhairle, providing a simple booklet to clients of his Department. The Minister sent Members a small synopsis and there is the general booklet which is available in the Department. However, with the exception of information which all Members will circulate about the budget, people often do not receive details of entitlements. Perhaps the Minister should consider providing some written information to clients of his Department.

This should also apply in the areas of education, training and housing. Members provide information on housing on a weekly basis, but many citizens have gaps in their knowledge in terms of what is available, for example, with regard to the affordable housing and shared ownership schemes. There are many areas where there is a huge lack of information, such as the recent case involving the right of a young person in the Youthreach scheme to do the junior certificate as an external student. People have a dearth of knowledge with regard to such situations and I hope the new organisation will address them.

The Minister has an opportunity in the Bill to lay out a vision of an informed alert society that is well aware of its fundamental rights to which citizens have full access. The Bill also provides an opportunity to renew the commitment to providing a society with equality for all citizens. I referred yesterday during Question Time to the review of the Action Programme for the Millennium. I usually carry a copy of that modest and slim document, which is difficult to read because the type is so small and fading. I hope to utilise this document in the days leading up—

Mr. D. Ahern

I am delighted.

Mr. Broughan

I have received many requests for copies from northsiders and particularly from taxi drivers who are anxious to study it. They also want to contact the Minister's colleague, Deputy Callely, after they have done so.

Mr. D. Ahern

They contacted the Deputy.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

They want to hit him over the head with the booklet.

Mr. Broughan

They want to throw it at him.

Mr. D. Ahern

They know he is on the side of the angels.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

It is a useful purpose for the document.

Mr. Broughan

I agree. The Minister's few flimsy comments in the document do not go anywhere near the commitment the Government should have to this area. The new NDA, Comhairle and the Disability Bill are mentioned, but there is no specific details about dealing with the dimensions of the problem I outlined earlier.

The key question is how will Comhairle provide a personalised service for the 10,000 people who are currently clients of the NRB and the vast bulk of whom have not been consulted about the Bill? Up to 60% of them are unemployed or under-employed and there is an education deficit which Comhairle and its staff in the general advice centres will have to work hard to address. The organisation is facing a huge task. The details were discussed during the Fine Gael Private Members' motion this week about carers and disability, but the stark figures regarding the inequality in the State for which the Minister will now be responsible through Comhairle show that the task will be difficult. The Minister should reconsider how he can expand the idea of a personalised service with regard to section 7. Will he indicate on Committee Stage where the new offices will be located? I understand 11 premises will become the property of Comhairle. Will he examine the issues of staffing, training and development?

I also have a copy of the national plan, which I also intend to use in the run up to the next general election. It contains a few brief comments on employment support services, but it appears that from a total of £40 billion only up to £260 million will be provided for services for people with disabilities. Given that this matter should be at the top of the agenda over the next six years, have the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, provided sufficient funds for it?

I referred previously to section 7. Deputy O'Keeffe mentioned the key aspects of it, including independence and advocacy, and queried a number of points. The addition of a commitment to a personalised service on a one to one basis is important and should be considered. I have been closely involved with the establishment of the local employment service and many of us in the voluntary sector are most upset at the attempts by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to devastate the service and remove it from the partnership area. I will raise this matter with the Taoiseach because it appears the entire partnership approach is being abandoned by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

I already mentioned that I would like a commitment to expand the general information base to each client of the Department, the NSSB and NRB. I would also like a commitment in section 7 towards linkage with the CICs, law centres, unemployment centres and the skilled voluntary sector. Deputy O'Keeffe spoke about the necessity for a real information network, particularly in isolated rural areas for people with disabilities. How does the Minister envisage the centre in my constituency expanding? Does he envisage a nationwide network, more staff or front line interaction? There is a need to spell out the role of the advocacy service.

In relation to section 9, why does the Government insist on attacking the notion of worker representation. There have been several examples of the Government establishing new organisations and attempting to either remove worker representation or diminish it to one worker representative on a board of 20 members. I do not understand this concept, given the role of worker directors in NRB from the outset. Do both partners in Government dislike the concept of worker representation? In semi-State bodies recently the Labour Party introduced direct worker participation through share ownership in new companies. We developed the idea in this country.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Deputy did not do much about it when in Government.

Mr. Broughan

If the Government is giving 15%—

Mr. D. Ahern

Some 5% in Telecom Éireann.

Mr. Broughan

—why is it saying to the 100 workers in the new organisation, a statutory body, that they will have just a 5% representation on the board? The Labour Party will seek to amend this proposal.

There is a weak commitment in section 12 to gender equality on the board. Again, this is central to the Labour Party's philosophy. I am pleased the former Minister for Education, Niamh Bhreathnach, pursued this issue with great diligence in the previous Dáil. There is a watering down of that commitment and I would like the Minister to take his courage in his hands and commit himself to at least a 40% or a 60% representation for the two genders. I welcome the proposal in section 8 for a strategic plan and look forward to the annual report.

This is an important Bill. It concerns the needs and rights of the most vulnerable in society. It has been awaited for a long time. The staff of both organisations have adapted remarkably well, given that this development came out of the blue from their perspective. Nonetheless, it is an important initiative. Between now and Committee Stage, I would like the Minister to revisit section 7, in particular, to see if he can spell out more clearly a vision of this service organisation and how it will operate throughout the country. It must focus on the needs of people with disabilities, given the current circumstances of their employment. There must be a one to one service.

On the national plan, I would like the Minister and his colleagues to renew their commitment to the 3% rule. I welcome the Bill.

Mr. Ardagh

I welcome this important Bill. I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak on the Bill which signals a major change for citizens' information. Information is a valuable commodity. The question of what information is disseminated and how and to whom it is disseminated is very important, particularly when one considers the amount of information available. There is a huge amount of information on the Internet. All Departments publish information documents on a daily basis and it is important this is done in a focused manner.

I disagree with Deputy Broughan on the vision in this document and the objectives set out therein. It may be just a question of semantics. The vision and objectives of the Bill are set out in section 7. I do not think it is the function of the Minister or his officials to set out the strategy. This is the reason Comhairle is being set up.

Mr. Broughan

The buck stops here.

Mr. Ardagh

There will be a board of 20 members in Comhairle. These are experienced and competent people. They have the educational achievements to enable them set out a strategic plan. They are better qualified in this regard than the Minister and his officials.

There is a vision that individuals will have access to accurate, comprehensive and clear information in relation to social services, and so on. There should be no question of first class and second class citizens. We are all citizens with equal status and equal order of merit. I do not accept the concept of second class citizen and I would like the use of this phrase to be eliminated.

Comhairle will build substantially on both the resources and expertise of both the NSSB and the NRB at local, regional and national level. The primary role of the NSSB is to ensure all citizens have easy access to the highest quality information and advice on social services. Since being transferred to the Department of Social Welfare in 1996, it has embarked on a strategy to significantly upgrade the support it provides for all information providers. As the Minister has already stated, it supports a network of 85 independent citizen information centres. I was pleased recently to attend the 25th anniversary of the Crumlin Citizens' Information Centre which operates from Sundrive Road. That developed from another citizens' information centre which operated from the Mount Argus Community Centre on Lower Kimmage Road. The NSSB was founded in 1984 and these bodies have been operating very effectively and efficiently since 1974. I am pleased they are being brought together under Comhairle. This is another stage in the development of the type of information citizens need and deserve.

The NSSB must be congratulated on developing a computerised database known as the Citizens' Information Database. This is a comprehensive user-friendly source of information for information providers on the full range of social services. More than 50% of the network is being computerised, allowing for full access to the database. This work will be ongoing under the Comhairle structure. The NSSB has provided a wide range of services to the voluntary social services sector for many years. These include a valuable range of supports in the area of information, training, management and organisational support, including group pension and insurance schemes. Substantial progress has also been made by the National Social Services Board and the Northern Ireland Association of Citizens Advice Bureau in creating an all-Ireland information database. This work, which will be continued under Comhairle, is to be encouraged.

Following research carried out during 1998, the development of a national telephone based citizens information service is now being actively explored. This has the potential to have a major impact on how citizens access information. The attention devoted to this matter is consistent with the strategy within the NSSB of promoting the use of new technology to improve information dissemination. A challenge for the new body in the future will be to ensure that new technological developments, which are now set to become available to most households with the arrival of digital networks, will be fully exploited in improving citizens information provision.

The functions of the NRB which will be transferred to Comhairle include 18 disability resource centres, and all such centres carry a wide range of information on services and entitlements in a variety of formats and are located in areas to ensure that they are fully accessible by people with disabilities. Some of the larger centres even act, in the display of a wide range of technical aids, to help further those with disabilities in the recognition of their needs and the provision for that. The new body, Comhairle, will take this responsibility for providing the technological assistance to people with disabilities. This service involves the assessment of technical aids, advising people of available options and providing up to date information on technological developments.

The provision and ease of access to information at all levels and especially the provision of advocacy services is of paramount importance in ensuring the participation of all citizens in as full and constructive a manner as possible. Comhairle will work to promote and support the development of independent information advice and advocacy service throughout the country to ensure that all citizens have access to accurate, timely, comprehensive and, most importantly, clear information to enable them to avail of the full range of social services.

All Deputies provide exactly this type of information on the telephone and in our clinics on a daily basis to people who are in many senses excluded from the State system. It is our responsibility, as legislators, to ensure the ease of negotiation of that system by all members of society. When individual rights and entitlements exist, it is our responsibility to ensure that this information is disseminated as widely, and in a manner which is as easily accessible, as possible. Our efforts in seeking a focused provision of social services for those who are most in need of them are useless unless we can ensure the uptake of these resources.

Traditionally, this distance between the citizens and the State has had to be bridged by Deputies, who individually have expended huge efforts in aiding constituents in negotiating the system. While such a service should have been provided it has also led to a disproportionate amount of Deputies' time being taken up in a cliente±list direction. The uptake of this function by an effective, fair and trustworthy body such as is proposed in the Comhairle structure is to be greatly encourage. Its results should also be that the resources of the House can be more fruitfully employed in legislative work. It is opportune now to congratulate the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, Deputy Ahern, and the staff of the Department for the prompt, efficient and effective way in which the Department services the inquiries of Deputies from all parties.

The creation of the new agency, Comhairle, reflects the ongoing determination of the Government to improve the provision of services to those with physical, mental and intellectual disabilities. The record demonstrates clearly that the Government has introduced, and continues to be committed to introducing, an unprecedented range of measures to improve the quality of life and create greater equality and opportunities for full participation for a very vulnerable sector of society. This is one of a series of measures being introduced by the Government to mainstream the provision of services for people with disabilities.

The central element in these new institutional arrangements which have been introduced by the Government has been the development of the National Disability Authority, which is an independent statutory authority which provides specialist advice and information to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on disability and policy. It acts to co-ordinate policy development within the Department to ensure that the end results are finely attuned to the needs and can firmly focus on the requirements of those with disabilities. The necessary legislation for that body was passed last June.

This year a total of £13.4 million – next year this figure will rise significantly to £16.4 million – has been allocated to the maintenance and development of services for people with physical and sensory disabilities. Of this sum, £6.4 million will lead to the elimination of underfunding of existing services. Some £6 million was allocated to development needs while £4 million of this sum will be devoted to capital developments.

For the first time ever, this Government oversaw the commencement of the national capital programme for the intellectual disability services. The importance of having a programme available to these services has been demonstrated already in that, in addition to the capital allocated to support new developments, the Government has been in a position to approve a number of major initiatives designed to provide new or refurbished facilities for people with an intellectual disability, facilities which were previously accommodated in psychiatric hospitals and other inappropriate places.

The Government has also announced funding for two pilot community action plans which will focus on transport. The aim is to improve the delivery of transport services to people with disabilities and to develop models of good practice in service delivery which can be replicated throughout the country.

Apart from the special buses purchased this year, from next year all buses bought by Dublin Bus will be special, low-floor, fully accessible buses so that those with a disability in the community can be assured of the access to buses which they deserve.

An interdepartmental task force is engaged in drafting a plan of action on the rights of people with disabilities, based on the report "A Strategy for Equality", which will inform Government policy on disabilities in the future. Under the review of the Programme for Government, Fianna Fáil is committed to providing substantial additional funding to address the shortfall in services for the mentally and physically handicapped. Fianna Fáil is committed to developing a comprehensive disabilities strategy underpinned by the establishment of the National Disability Authority, policies of supporting advocacy by and on behalf of people with disabilities, and the preparation of a major disability Bill. The Comhairle Bill is just another element in the framework being put in place by the Government which will involve the disabled in a more inclusive society and which will see the fulfilment of our vision of a more equal Ireland for all of its citizens.

Mr. Sheehan

I, too, welcome the Bill but I am afraid it is too little, too late. People with a disability are always the most vulnerable. At a time when the Celtic tiger economy is booming, it is shocking to witness extreme poverty among certain sections of the community. For some unknown reason, the plight of this section of the community has fallen on deaf ears in the Government.

I cannot imagine how a Minister or Government could stand over a situation whereby the most vulnerable section of the community, the poorer section, is on the bread line. It is impossible to comprehend that the winter fuel allowance, which has operated for years, is still a meagre £5 a week. That amount of money would not be sufficient to buy a bucket of coal. The Minister, in his wisdom, should ensure that the allowance is increased to at least £15 per week to bring it into line with current living standards. Heat is as important as food to unfortunate people who are struggling to have decent conditions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am reluctant to intervene, but the Deputy appears to be wandering from the substance of the Bill.

Mr. Sheehan

I am not—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have no objection to the Deputy making a passing reference to certain matters.

Mr. Sheehan

—it is all encompassed in the Comhairle Bill.

I note that the Government fully supports the principle that people with disabilities are entitled to all the rights and privileges associated with citizenship and believes that all obstacles to the enjoyment of these privileges should be removed. I hope the Minister will live up to his words in that regard because the balance should be tilted in favour of the underprivileged section of society. It is of the utmost importance that people with physical disabilities and their families can be accommodated under the Comhairle Bill. I hope the Minister's views on this matter will be broadened when the Bill is passed into law.

Tilting the balance can rebalance the distribution of resources so that they support the entire community. If this does not happen, the current imbalance and growing gap between the opportunities generally available in a booming economy and those available to people with physical disabilities will continue to hold sway. It is payback time for the underprivileged section of our community and for people with physical disabilities and their families, whose long acknowledged need for practical and accessible supports have deliberately not been addressed while the country worked its way back from the brink of disaster.

Social investment in urgently needed. Where services exist, they are often paltry and piecemeal. An intolerable price is being paid by people with physical disabilities and their families. The Government has a choice: it can largely ignore the urgent need for social investment to cater for the needs of people with physical disabilities and allow them to be pushed further into the margins or it can make a serious investment in this area with long-term benefits for everyone. A social infrastructure must be put in place to support people with disabilities and their families.

The disabled section of Irish society has been neglected. Recent incremental improvements to existing services are not enough. There must be serious and substantial investment into this area. Anything else will only compound past neglect, further marginalise people and render meaningless commitments given by the Government. To date, we have had to rely on community employment schemes and these are now being severely reduced. I see no logic in reducing these schemes. At a time of such economic success, why did the Government curtail these schemes which are of such importance in terms of providing employment to disabled people and those on the breadline?

The Government has stated that it is committed to people with disabilities living in and being fully part of the community. If that is so, it must make significant investment on their behalf. If the Government responded fully in respect of the areas to which I have referred, it would provide a major boost for individuals, their families and the community. There is a clear opportunity for the Government to invest in a major area of need in the community.

It is estimated that there are 3,500 disabled people throughout the country. These people need a residential respite service. The impact of their disabilities and the need to support their families and carers makes such out of home breaks essential. Apart from planned breaks, there are crises of one kind of another to which these people must respond.

Last year, Government research showed that there are 1,248 people who do not leave their homes, for any reason, on a regular basis. In effect, they are totally isolated. Increased funding has resulted in 115 of these people gaining access to a service which means there are still 1,113 people who will not leave their homes. That is a damning indictment of the Government's approached to this underprivileged section of the community.

Local resource centres are the starting point – they are not an end in themselves – at which development programmes can operate and community participation commence. People have a basic need for hands-on support to assist them with daily tasks, such as dressing, preparing meals and personal care so that they can be indepen dent and active in the community. It is estimated that this year, 173 people required a comprehensive, full-time service and 1,100 required a less intensive service. That makes a total of 1,273 people who require personal assistance. Such a service could be provided at a cost of £8.1 million which is only a drop in the ocean compared to the money that will be allocated in the forthcoming budget. I ask the Minister to use his clout at the Cabinet table to ensure that he obtains sufficient funding to offset this imbalance and thereby cater for the needs of disabled people.

A voluntary body in my constituency, the West Cork Wheelchair Support Group, was formed out of a dire need to help people who are seriously disabled and confined to wheelchairs. It must be remembered that it is no good fitting out buses in Dublin with special facilities for disabled people when their counterparts in rural areas do not have access to such facilities and they are obliged to remain in their homes day in and day out. This is a sad indictment of the Government. The West Cork Wheelchair Support Group is trying to provide services to people living on the Beara, Muintir Bhaire and Mizen Head peninsulas and it operates three buses it purchased from funds raised through charity walks, raffles, etc. However, when it made an application to the Minister's Department and to the Department of Health and Children for an allocation to fund the purchase of these buses, which are fully adapted to cater for wheelchair users, it was turned down.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is moving very far from the scope of the Bill.

Mr. Sheehan

This concerns people with disabilities.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Bill deals with imparting information.

Mr. Sheehan

The Bill has been described as a Comhairle Bill but it should be described as Bill for people with disabilities, an underprivileged section of the community.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Bill deals exclusively with information.

Mr. Sheehan

Already this morning a Deputy asked what the title of the Bill meant. He said it was meaningless. He was right, the Minister did not respond to his question. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle now tells me that I cannot speak on behalf of those with disabilities and the underprivileged.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is telling the Deputy that he is wandering well outside the scope of this Bill. While I do not mind a passing reference to issues the Deputy wants to see addressed, it is not appropriate to go into detail on matters outside the scope of the Bill.

Mr. Sheehan

I am not wandering. It is appropriate for me to go into detail because this House is the only forum where I can raise this imbalance. It is the only place where I can get a reply. I hope the Minister will reply and will not treat these concerns in a cavalier fashion. I am speaking for those people deprived of life's necessities. What system is there to support these underprivileged people in rural areas? What system exists in the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's constituency of Cavan-Monaghan? There are people who cannot avail of the free travel scheme because, although they are entitled to it, they live 25 miles from the nearest bus. They do not get out of their houses from one end of the week to the other. The only connection they have with society is the postman bringing them a message from the local shop.

Let no one fool himself into believing that this Government is looking after the underprivileged. Far from it. I appeal for the Minister to consider making a special scheme available that will dispense those free schemes in a fair and equal manner. A fair deal for every citizen is needed – there should be day resources centres, residential respite care, personal assistant services and costed disability payments. Fair deals not buckled wheels. That is what is needed from this Government and the Minister's Department. I call on him to listen to what we have to say. We are only explaining that it is necessary for the Department to ensure that these people get their rightful share of the cake, that these people are denied the facilities that people in the cities and towns have because they live in isolated areas. These are the forgotten people who cannot get to the nearest village or town because they live 20 miles from it and there is no bus service. Special weekly services should be set up to cater for these people.

The Bill has not encompassed that situation. It is all talk and no action. That is what worries me. The Minister must act before it is too late and ensure that these people are catered for under this Bill and that each one of them gets their rightful share. It should not make any difference whether they live in Ballybane or Ballsbridge. In Ballsbridge there are special buses for the disabled but what system applies in rural areas? The Minister is failing in his duty unless he caters for those people as well.

Mr. N. Ahern

I could start by praising the Department and the Minister for all they have done in recent years for the disadvantaged and those with disabilities, those Deputy Sheehan regards as the forgotten people. The Minister and the Department will do that better than me but I could rattle on about the millions they have provided under various schemes. One can never be happy in these situations but a colossal amount has been, is being and will be done.

Mr. Sheehan

I invite the Deputy to my constituency to see how much is being done.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must allow Deputy Ahern to speak.

Mr. D. Ahern

Perhaps they should elect a better TD.

Mr. Sheehan

No, they should change the Government.

Mr. N. Ahern

I might take Deputy Sheehan up on his offer. The last time I was there I went through Goleen so quickly I wondered if I was on the outskirts of it or if I had passed through it. I was in Barleycove before I realised that I had passed a few houses and had seen the sign.

Mr. Sheehan

The Deputy is welcome to visit again.

Mr. N. Ahern

I often wonder how the Deputy gets 7,000 votes from those few houses.

Mr. Sheehan

If the seagulls had votes, I would have 700,000.

Mr. N. Ahern

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hope the Deputy will not deviate from the substance of the Bill.

Mr. N. Ahern

As the Minister said, this Bill regularises matters. It has been recommended by various bodies interested in the area. It is right and proper that services and information for people with disabilities should be available along with general information. We have made progress and it follows that any information should be co-ordinated through this new body, Comhairle. We must recognise that NRB and the NSSB have done great work over the years. I compliment the staff of both bodies. They can feel that they have done their job well.

All recent Governments have done a tremendous amount for people with disabilities. Every year when the Estimates are published I am impressed by the figures. That has been so over the lifetime of this Government, particularly the figures which were released last week. I hope the budget will go further in improving matters. While I was impressed previously by the Estimates, when I heard the figures released by the Eastern Health Board in January, it seemed to be such a poor shadow of the overall figure. It makes a lie of Deputy Sheehan's line that everything is given to Dublin and nothing to rural areas. The health board figures appear impressive but in March or April when the figures for the agencies administering services locally are published, they are a shadow of what was provided in the Estimate and usually equate to 20 residential places and a number of day care places. It is always disappointing. While the initial funding that Government provides is attractive, is good value for money achieved down the line? Are too many agencies and groups setting up their own little empires and bureaucracies? Extra staff is needed if more services are to be provided but they often seek to provide a Rolls Royce service or the maximum service for the minimum number of clients. I hope there will be greater analysis and examination of how this money is spent. At the end of the day it is taxpayers money and we are not getting good value for money from the end product. The Minister stated training for disabled people will now be undertaken by FÁS. That is a logical and worthwhile move.

The Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs is one of the best Departments for disseminating information to us, as public representatives, and the wider community. The system it has adopted where we can contact people in the Department is the best available. Some Departments perform deplorably and one might as well have one's head in the sand when attempting to obtain information. However, the Minister's Department is top of the list and the officials and Ministers who put this system in place and maintained it over the years deserve credit.

Since the advent of freedom of information some Departments have transferred staff who previously dealt with queries from public representatives to areas which deal with freedom of information applications. If that has happened in the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs I have not noticed it because the level of service is still quite good. However, in some Departments staff have been moved from one section which provides information to another to the detriment of the service to the public.

The Department and the agencies, such as the National Social Services Board, have done a great deal in terms of disseminating information. I compliment the Minister and the Department for the new booklet which was recently sent to all pensioners. A number of people have called to my clinics and quoted from it. They blind me with science and information. Usually, I must give them the bad news that have perhaps selectively read what seemed to be good news but there is no doubt that the recent publication has provided wonderful information. If the Department is to be judged on giving out information, it is top of the class.

There are different ways of transmitting information through public representatives, community groups and welfare rights groups, nationally or locally, and the Department and its agencies have done well. However, there is no doubt that there is a need to do it through independent organisations because public representatives meet people all the time who try to get them to prime them on what they should say to departmental officials when they apply for social welfare benefits. The Department has addressed this issue in recent years. However, if an individual gives the incorrect information, departmental officials must act on it. It is right and proper that there should be an independent source of infor mation whereby people can prepare themselves for the formal interview with welfare officers.

The Department has introduced facilitators who provide information to the public on back to work schemes, etc., and that has been an improvement, although there is still great confusion because of the bureaucracy involved. Manpower was amalgamated with FÁS years ago but people who worked in Manpower still do not feel part of the new organisation. They are isolated and nobody seems to give a damn about them. However, the Department, employment exchanges and other bodies which have been established provide information on the various schemes. The dissemination of information needs to be reorganised and streamlined because many groups give out the same information and people make work for themselves as a result. There is too much competition and the information is not given out in the most structured way. However, the information seems to get out anyway.

Deputy Sheehan and others referred to poor and disadvantaged people but many of them are well versed on their entitlements. They often stagger me with their knowledge of the system, which is more thorough and detailed than mine on many issues. I recall a colleague on the city council visiting a welfare rights office which was not sponsored by the Minister. It was run as a CE scheme and while the councillor was waiting to meet an individual, who was out of the office at the time, he was blinded with information about what the office provided. When they finally asked who he was, he replied that he was councillor X and the staff were intrigued. They were only aware of counsellors and not councillors. They did not know what was a councillor's role but they were experts in giving out information and helping people to access the system.

Great efforts are made to distribute information and they are successful, but we fail in some cases. What happens then? This issue has been discussed in the House on many occasions. For example, when an individual fails to apply for the widow's pension or the old age pension the Department's attitude is not sustainable, even though the rules have been relaxed in recent years. I am not sure whether the number of these cases involved can be quantified and it could involve more people than I am aware but if we fail to inform people, there is a certain responsibility on us. We cannot be fully blamed but it is not fair or reasonable to throw the book at people because they did not apply for their pensions, etc. There is an onus on us to ensure information is disseminated and we cannot walk away if we fail to do so.

The National Social Services Board produces a monthly publication entitled Relate, which is helpful and useful. If the Chair allowed us to debate the issues raised by the board in recent publications, Second Stage would continue until next year, although it is not far away. Relate is informative and is written in layman's language as far as is possible. I note one of the functions of the NSSB is to prepare a pre-budget submission. I am sure the Ceann Comhairle would not want Deputies to use this as an opportunity to make their own pre-budget submission as it might prolong the debate. It is interesting to note that the NSSB makes an input based on the feedback it gets from people with whom it is dealing in providing information. There is no doubt that, through the money advice service and the development of social policy, there has been tremendous change for the better in that area in recent years. The Minister and the Department should be given credit for it.

Having looked at its annual report one small criticism I have is that the address of the NSSB is Ballsbridge. Deputy Sheehan made some remark about Ballsbridge. The remit of this organisation is to give out information on social welfare and such matters and its address is Ballsbridge. What message does that send? I suggest to the Minister, in the event that a new address is required for Comhairle, that, perhaps, Ballymun, Main Street, might be a more appropriate location. I am not here as salesman for Ballymun Regeneration but Ballymun is being recreated. There are tax incentives for certain areas and we are trying to lure out passport offices, new health board authorities, Garda divisional headquarters, Government Departments and so on. Kieran Murray and his team in Ballymun Regeneration are there and have the assistance of professional valuers, estate agents and so on. I do not suppose Comhairle can avail of tax incentives or whatever but I suggest an address such as Ballymun might give a better image. It might be better also for staff rather than being delayed in traffic jams every morning getting to downtown Ballsbridge. If an address means anything, the address of the NSSB sends a wrong message.

Marvellous work has been done in recent years. Information is being given out but it could be better disseminated if there was less competition and less bureaucracy between the manpower office, the Department and the partnership boards. There are many people now disseminating information. At all community group meetings one will find Department leaflets. They are available everywhere. This is not all about competing boards and competing bodies. I do not give a damn whether it comes under the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs or the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or whatever other Department is involved but there is a type of bureaucratic argument going on. Different people are competing for their own territory and that is not necessarily correct.

Deputy Broughan referred briefly to community employment schemes and was critical of the changes threatened by the Minister and the Government. He has a point. The NSSB, the partnership Government, ICTU and so on seem to be run in many respects by expert groups and partnership groups. Everybody is making an input, sometimes everybody except the public representative. Some of the Government announcements, such as that on CE schemes, are screened and fed through a spin doctor. However, I think that particular scheme was not considered by working politicians. While there was merit in some of the changes proposed, others were crazy. I now wonder if these changes were made by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and not by the Minister present. Some of the changes were justified and now the Minister has to backtrack which does not do her credibility any good. We cannot be led exclusively by these so-called experts groups and consultants. By all means get the experts to provide the facts as they see them, but they must be related to one's own commonsense and feedback from the ground. When changes are made they must be the correct changes targeted at the right people.

Another point raised by Deputy Broughan was that of worker directors. I recall he made a similar speech here at the time part of Telecom was sold by the Government of which the Deputy was a member. The view from official quarters, the Civil Service or wherever, is that the role of worker directors is being watered down. It is good that worker directors have a role on State boards and that should be encouraged and promoted at every level. I do not know whether there is any validity in the comments about this Bill.

Deputy Broughan referred to gender equality. I would like to think we have got beyond that problem. This Bill is about mainstreaming services for the disabled. My view is that gender equality has been achieved and was the cause of the last decade. It is not necessary to press the buttons of the 1980s. Some people need to update their speeches and get on with it.

Mr. Crawford

Like Deputy Higgins this morning I was not aware of what the Bill was about so that my contribution will not be as detailed as I would have wished on this important subject. That is my fault. I do not have great Irish as I got only 40.5 per cent so many years ago. However, I congratulate the Minister on introducing the Bill.

The Comhairle Bill seeks to establish a new statutory authority from the merger of the National Social Services Board and the transfer of certain functions of the National Rehabilitation Board. I want to be associated with the previous remarks to thank the staff of both organisations for the excellent and valuable work they have done in these organisations and wish the new body equal success.

The whole question of the provision of information is important. The new body will use the citizens information centres of the NSSB and the NRB premises throughout the country. It is hoped that the premises will be accessible to mobility impaired persons. If this is not the case in any of the premises the matter should be rectified without delay. The long-promised new premises in Monaghan town is in the building process and will be welcomed by all concerned, the official announcement for which was made three and half years ago. Problems in regard to planning and other technicalities took some time to be resolved. Issues such as this make one wonder how accurate is the recently announced seven year programme. However, that is an issue for another day.

Written information must be user friendly and clear. To this end I welcome the recent documentation provided by the Minister to old age pensioners. However, I draw his attention to the fact that County Monaghan has been omitted. I hope it is only a technical mistake and that the Minister has not forgotten about the existence of County Monaghan. There are excellent social welfare advice centres in the county and I hope the lack of information on that can be rectified.

It is essential that information for people with disabilities, their families and carers is both clear and comprehensive. The new information service provisions for people with disability must be targeted. In this regard, the Comhairle role should be pro-active and should target those who might benefit from the service or advice available. I am glad to hear it acknowledged by the Government side of the House that many people do not have all the information available to them. That may not be the fault of the Minister or his Department, but we encounter such people in our clinics from time to time. Funding could have been made available to them. For example, it was a long time before people realised they could avail of the widower's pension.

Accessing information can be difficult at the best of times and it can be a nightmare in times of crisis. Those enduring a serious illness or bereavement are sometimes unaware of the benefits that could have eased the pressure they were under. Those family members who, following an accident or sudden and debilitating illness, suddenly find themselves in the role of carer can be unsure of the help and support to which they are entitled. It is essential to take a one-stop-shop approach to the provision of information and one, or at most two telephone calls or visits should be all that is necessary. In his speech the Minister said that people with disabilities wish to be treated in the same way as their fellow citizens when the mainstream agencies deliver services to them. That is important. The transport issue needs to be addressed, especially in rural areas. Many people are unaware of their entitlements. People approach me from time to time requesting help with transport, whether it be to hospital or elsewhere. This is especially the case for those with disablements. They cannot drive and perhaps their families are unable to secure a car under the criteria that apply to the disabled because, for example, no limbs have been lost.

Rural transport is a serious issue. My secretary has come across many cases in my office where people have had to beg the community welfare officer to make funds available to ensure that weekend hospital appointments in, say, Dublin are kept. We must ensure that the disabled are fully aware of their rights and what they are entitled to.

There are too many agencies involved in this area, be it FÁS, social welfare or the area based partnership offices. Many want to help and give information, but, unfortunately, it can take a long time for a claimant to go from one to the other. Whatever about the difficulties encountered by people who are a little unable and who are in receipt of social welfare benefits, this presents a major problem for the disabled. I hope this legislation will rectify these problems to ensure that information is freely available to those who need it.

The issue of the rights of the disabled was raised this week during Private Member's business. Support must be provided to those who wish to stay at home. In many instances such people need permanent assistance rather than what is available through a FÁS scheme. I have encountered one case involving a 16 year old youth who is unable to do anything for himself. He sits propped up in a chair. His family have endured a nightmare in recent years but is now receiving more help, often from voluntary organisations. It would be very costly to look after this young man in an institution. His parents do not want that to happen. They want access to information that will let them know their exact entitlements.

The budget presents an opportunity to provide full carer's allowance to those suffering serious disablement, virtually regardless of income. While there are people on a list of the disabled who are not that bad and do not deserve to be there, there are ways and means to treat differently those who are permanently disabled, whether they be permanently confined to a chair or whatever. I take this opportunity to beg the Minister to ensure that such people have a right to assistance, including the full carer's allowance.

Were it not for the likes of the Lions Club, community groups and other such organisations in County Monaghan many disabled persons would not be able to move about as freely as they do. We must pay tribute to the tremendous effort made by these groups. However, in an area where there is little transport and where the available transport is often inaccessible we must make the transport providers better aware of the need to make it more accessible and user friendly.

People with disablements often have difficulty accessing information on their rights and allowances when procuring cars, or even chairs to go into cars, if they do not pass the tests set down by the local doctor at health board level. They must then appeal to Dublin. I recently encountered two cases where neither party was capable of travelling to the appeal in Dublin. People in that situation continue to lose out. That must be seriously considered. One lady wished to travel to mass only once or, perhaps on the odd occasion, twice a week and maybe travel with her daughter to sit in the town and watch people go by. Under her doctor's instruction she is unable to travel to Dublin for her appeal. Her daughter had to give up work to look after her and, therefore, does not have the funds to buy a car unless she can get the tax and VAT relief. This type of case must be seriously looked at.

Over the last two budgets the disabled only received an increase of £6 per week whereas old age pensioners received an increase of £11 per week. Given the scale of the funding that is now available there is no reason the disabled should be treated in this way. They should receive an increase that takes account of the extent to which they have slipped behind. They have been treated at the same level as the long-term unemployed. In a booming economy the latter have an opportunity to work and there are many schemes to address their needs, although they need to be better publicised and targeted better at those entitled to use them.

However, in many cases the disabled cannot take up employment. It is wrong that they should be discriminated against. I know a young man who uses two crutches to walk who received an increase of £6 in the past two years, while his next door neighbour, a reasonably young and fit pensioner, received an increase of £11 while being able to hold down a full-time job. The Minister and his officials must ensure the disabled are cared for properly in this millennium year.

I was not in the Dáil yesterday when the Minister answered questions, but I have had correspondence with him on this new brilliant farm assist scheme which was supposed to save thousands of farmers and their families – it is important to note that families are involved – from the dire problems which have beset the farming industry in recent years. The scheme was negotiated between the IFA, other farming organisations and the Minister's Department and was supposed to give farmers an additional £15 million to £20 million. A number of different figures were announced to the farming community. The Minister's information must have been wrong, because it is 18 months since the scheme was announced and the facts given by his Department and office are that no additional money has been spent on the scheme. Those who have been reassessed have in many cases had their incomes reduced.

The means of assessment must be urgently re-examined. Social welfare officers do an excellent job in the main and I do not blame them for what is happening because they obviously follow guidelines. However, many older farmers are not well educated and do not have proper accounts structures. A simple example of this is a small farmer whom I accompanied to the social welfare office. He had little information except that he had five cows and a few other head of cattle. He was able to make little more than £3,000 on those five cows. The social welfare officer accepted that some things on the man's assessment could not be possible and adjusted it accordingly, and I appreciate that. Furthermore, this same farmer could not provide for the control of farmyard pol lution scheme because of the size of his enterprise. Although it was supposed to be a ten year programme, he had to raise the money for the scheme in the short-term.

Another case involved a man with 13 cows and about 30 other cattle. According to the social welfare officer, he was able to have them tested for TB and brucellosis, served with AI, dosed and have veterinary work carried out for a total cost of £300. That was placed in writing on the assessment form. Anyone who knows anything about agriculture knows it costs £16.50 for an AI service for each head of cattle which means the AI service alone cost £192. The test cost £200. That does not allow anything for dosing or veterinary costs. It would have amounted to a minimum of £600 and possibly nearer £700. On the other hand, on the sales side, the farmer was only allowed lose 5 per cent. Anyone who knows anything about the farming conditions last year and some of the sad cases which have gone to court as a result, knows that, through starvation and sickness, many farmers lost much more than 5 per cent. That must be taken into account.

A learning process needs to take place for social welfare officials at participant and Department levels if this scheme is to serve its purpose. The Minister, his support team and the farm organisations, when they devised this scheme, thought it might be useful. It has turned out to be a farce and I hope it will be re-examined as a matter of urgency. None of us on either side of the House wants people to starve unnecessarily. The funds have been provided and the steps must taken before it is too late to ensure these people receive their entitlements.

Ms Hanafin

I welcome the Bill. Two of the major arguments made deal with the title of the Bill and the address of the agencies. That surely proves the Bill must be worthwhile.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an t-ainm. Nuair a chonaic mé an t-ainm, "Comhairle", shíl mé go roimh i bhfad níos mó i gceist i gComhairle ná mar a bheadh i gceist le h-eolas. Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Teachta Higgins ar maidin ag ardú na ceiste. Bheadh an-leisce orm fiú amháin iarracht a dhéanamh ar fhreagra a thabhairt ar dhuine chomh shaineolach leis an Teachta Higgins ar mhéad leathan ábhar. Dá bhrí sin, níor bhraith mé ar mo chuid eolas féin ach d'fhéach mé i bhfoclóir Uí Dhomhnaill – bíobla nua na Gaeilge – agus chonaic mé go bhfuil dhá mhíniú ag baint leis an bhfocal "comhairle", siad sin "advice or counsel" agus "council".

The term "advice and counsel" sums up what is meant by the Bill. It is about much more than giving information. It gives people a direction, a service and access to a wide range of services and information to enable them make decisions, to become stronger and to empower themselves to be able to deal with the information when they receive it. Bhí an-áthas orm nár cuireadh an teideal "An Bille Eolais" ar an mBille, mar ní bheadh brí dá laghad ag baint leis. Ag féachaint ar an bhfocal "comhairle", tuigim go díreach céard atá i gceist.

Fáiltím ach go háirithe that it is the Irish version of the word which is being used. Too often in Bills, boards or establishments we have moved away from using the Irish language version towards using the English language version. The more opportunities we can give people to keep the Irish version as the official one, the better it will be for the Irish language.

The Bill sets out to give a structure to and to mainstream the provision of information so it is available to all people, especially those with disabilities. The report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities is an enormous tome which deals with a wide variety of topics: legal status, transport, access, technology, women and vulnerable people. Before it deals with any of those rights, there is a full section entitled: "Delivering the Necessary Services", as though acknowledging that it does not matter what rights and services exist for people if they do not know how to access them to retain them. The report states that people with disabilities were frustrated in getting information about their entitlements and in accessing these from a multiplicity of agencies. It recommended a single network which would give information, advice, support and advocacy.

The report recognises that information is the key to equality and independence and that, while it must be available to all people, it also needs to be co-ordinated so it can be used by all people who attain it. The centralisation of information, in the form of a disability support service, was one of the central recommendations of that report. This Bill goes one step further in that it does not segregate information for the disabled from information for anyone else. It seeks to ensure all people are treated equally in a positive manner and recognises that information is essential for all citizens. The Bill carries through on one of the three main principles recognised in the commission report, that of equality. The Comhairle Bill will ensure equality of access to information.

The NRB has played, and continues to play, a very valuable role in providing information. A number of other voluntary groups and specialised organisations also provide an information service and need our continuing support. Difficulties have arisen because such a variety of Departments and agencies provide information. Those services must be co-ordinated, supported and directed. An Comhairle, an focal sin arís, is required so that people will know where to turn.

I recently met a young, highly intelligent and motivated girl with an excellent job who had just been diagnosed with advanced Retinitis Pigmentosa. She contacted one of the organisations which deals with the blind to find out what her entitlements would be, what retraining would be available to her, where she could turn to for employment and what supports she could expect to receive. She contacted them in January but had not heard anything by September when she contacted me. It took six weeks for me to obtain the information. This girl is not yet disabled but is faced with the trauma of knowing that she will be blind in a very short time. Having obtained the information she requested, I discovered she needs to turn to a variety of agencies to obtain the assistance she requires to enable her to cope with her disability and to ensure she can continue to lead the type of life she currently leads. I hope Comhairle, in its co-ordination of information services, will work with all of the service providers to ensure this girl and people like her can obtain information and advice speedily and efficiently.

In our role as public representatives, we have all encountered people who need information. I could point to the case of my friend Gerry, a Thalidomide victim and formerly a highly successful secondary school teacher, who runs choirs, organises musicals and drives his car in a manner which must be seen to be believed. Having completed a law degree, he changed his career direction into law at which stage he started to encounter problems. He approached me to find out whether any assistance would be available to allow a solicitor's company to adapt if it were to take him on as an apprentice. He wanted to know whether he would be entitled to a home help given that his home situation had changed and what assistance he could avail of from the local authority or the health board. He is not in a system because he is not in receipt of social welfare but he does require advice and information. I hope Comhairle, through its various organisations and information structures, will be able to assist him. I hope it will assist me as someone who receives requests for information. How am I, a TD of two years' standing, to know what is necessary to help these people? At least, I know where to turn to for the information and can avail of the back-up and support of Departments such as the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs whose staff give freely and willingly of their time. Individuals should have access to accurate, comprehensive and clear information and should not have to wait for me to get it for them. People should be able to obtain the information for themselves at a local level.

The issue of the address of the major body, be it the NRB, NSSB or Comhairle, was raised. Does it matter whether the address is Ballsbridge, Ballymun, Ballybough or Ballybrack? Does it matter whether it is located in Raheen, Moneen, Southill or Malin Head? What matters is that people in all of these areas would be able to obtain information. Information is essential for everyone, irrespective of where people live or what their abilities or disabilities are. I welcome the fact that the Bill combines the work of the NRB, which focused on people with disabilities, with the work of the NSSB which operates citizens' information centres.

Recently, the Minister opened a new office for an existing service in Dún Laoghaire which pro vides free, confidential, expert and impartial information. People have worked there in a voluntary capacity for many years and they have more information than I could ever hope to have. These people, in their new offices, with the support and back-up of technology and Departments, can empower people to make decisions and can assist them to deal with all of the services. It does not matter where people live or what their backgrounds are; people need advice and information whether they have sufficient or insufficient income or whether they live in private or council accommodation.

An elderly couple came to see me this week. They do not have any family and they wanted to inquire about nursing home beds and sheltered independent living and to obtain medical information and information on basic maintenance, such as who they should contact if the water boiler burst. I hope Comhairle will be able to assist these people, through its co-ordination of services, in the same way as it will assist those who are already in the system.

The money advice and budgeting bureaus, one of which is located in Dún Laoghaire, will also be assisted by this Bill. There is a need to advertise the availability of MABS, citizens' information centres and any other information centres set up under the aegis of Comhairle. Such publicity is required so that people will know to whom they can turn for advice in their local areas, the service opening hours, the information that is available and that the services are open to everyone. People of all ages and from all backgrounds require advice. The aim of this Bill is to treat people equally, to empower them and make them independent. When the body has been established and the services have been co-ordinated, let us inform people of its availability and offer them choices.

Mr. Finucane

I welcome the Bill which will result in the amalgamation of the NRB and the NSSB which have done valuable work over the years. It is now time to move on. The objective of the amalgamation is to provide greatly enhanced services for people with disabilities.

In the past, many people participated in training courses outside the FÁS system. As someone who worked with FÁS in the past, that resulted in the compartmentalisation of people with disabilities. At one stage, I was involved in the apprenticeship aspect of training and visited various companies in Cork where the National Rehabilitation Board trained people in upholstery and carpet making. Those people were trained as a separate entity and were then taken on by local employers. It is desirable that people with disabilities train in a natural environment as that allows them to network with other people at a later stage. That should happen in the future. Many of the changes which have taken place are positive.

Over the years the Dáil and various organis ations have spoken about local authorities, health boards and State bodies employing a certain percentage of people with disabilities. In many cases the targets have not been achieved. When local authorities and health boards advertise vacancies, which are open to all, people with disabilities no longer apply because they do not believe they have a chance. If we are to achieve the targets set down, human resources sections in health boards and local authorities should actively encourage people with disabilities to apply for positions. I read recently that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government had repeated what previous Ministers said about the percentage in local authorities and different organisations. Unless personnel sections are encouraged to move in that direction, that percentage will not be achieved.

We put barriers in the way of people with disabilities entering mainstream employment. One barrier is that some of the organisations for which they might work are not wheelchair friendly or wheelchair accessible. Making sure such buildings are accessible involves a certain amount of expenditure. The person who is not in a wheelchair will not cost the organisation any expense in terms of making it wheelchair accessible or wheelchair compatible and in that case, the person with a disability does not a have a real opportunity. Rather than setting targets, personnel sections should be directed to actively encourage people with disabilities to apply for positions and they should, as a matter of policy, make their building accessible and wheelchair friendly.

I live in Newcastle West where a group called Access got together. There is also a Cheshire Home close by and when those in wheelchairs came on their weekly visit to Newcastle West, they found that many of the footpaths in the town and the banking institutions were not accessible. It has been a long process getting the local authority – I am sure the same applies to other local authorities – and the different institutions in the town, particularly those in older buildings, to ensure their buildings were wheelchair friendly. It is sad that a voluntary organisation is needed to give stimulus to something which should happen. We have got over that difficulty as a result of our recent policy on buildings. New buildings must be wheelchair accessible and wheelchair friendly.

The standard local authority house is a three bedroomed two storey semi-detached or terraced house but how many times have situations arisen where a young person is confined to a wheelchair and requires a bungalow? The housing section of the Department of the Environment and Local Government needs to be more innovative in terms of housing policy. To what degree do we ensure that what we put in place is wheelchair accessible or wheelchair friendly? When trying to accommodate the person or the family concerned, we usually build an extra bedroomed or a bathroom and shower downstairs. Imagination is required in that regard.

I recently met a group from the West Limerick Centre for Independent Living. It has done much work over a short period. Many of those confined to wheelchairs are extremely bright and very computer literate but they need a personal assistant or somebody to guide them when required. The policy in respect of personal assistants has been very progressive. The health boards and FÁS have helped to some degree, but there appears to be an ad hoc approach to this matter. That is why 500 personal assistants were sought in their budget submission. The type of money involved would not be much in the context of a buoyant economy but it would give much dignity to their lives. If we take steps in the right direction, we will show a positive approach to the area of disability.

I have read much legislation recently which tries to accommodate this segment of the community. It is time to stop pay lip service in terms of legislation. We need to do something tangible. Some £40 billion is available for the National Development Plan. We have a buoyant economy and a budget surplus of £6 billion. Now is the time to address physical and mental handicap. If we do not address it when we have a buoyant economy, we never will. The argument used in the past was that because of the economic situation, we could not address it. We have no excuse and politicians deserve to be castigated if they do not move in a positive direction.

On many occasions in the past year people in wheelchairs have protested outside the gates of the House, often in bad weather, to put pressure on us, as national politicians, to give them the status they deserve. I hope we can address that in the next budget. That is why the motion before the House last night was timely.

My community is attempting a very laudable project called the Desmond resources complex which caters for young and old and people in wheelchairs who will have access to hydrotherapy pools and so on. We are trying to raise £l million for phase one. I have heard people speak about millennium projects and about the money being spent on such projects. At times I question our priorities because when the documentation relating to this project was put before the millennium committee, it was not even considered. Yet other projects, which have received financial aid, will be transient in terms of what is achieved. In this case, we are trying to do something which would have long-term implications for the community we serve and the people we represent.

I wonder about our priorities. As this Bill emanated from the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, I would like to raise an issue. Recently, elderly women came to me crying. Their means were reviewed because they were getting a few pounds more as their UK pensions were being paid in sterling and their widows or widowers non-contributory pension was reduced because of the strength of sterling. They have not been reviewed since 1993. The officials said they were sorry but that their pension is means tested and that it was being revised accordingly and that the amount they would receive would be reduced by £20 to £25. They said it was interesting that no representative from the Department came to them when the punt was stronger than sterling to give some compensation. Widows getting a reduced pension because their late husbands worked in England found that reduction a real burden. It is a pity those pensions were reviewed now on the basis of punt and sterling values. That was extreme and a regressive decision. Public representatives have ongoing contact with the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, as we deal with many people who have problems with social welfare, though I cannot praise departmental officials at local and national level enough for their efficiency. The Department's level of computerisation has been particularly effective and other Departments should follow its example. Over the past few years Ministers in the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs have ensured that the Department is efficient.

However, even if one is efficient one should also have a heart, which was not the case with the decision concerning these 850 widows and widowers. This was a mean stroke in a buoyant economy. Who instructed officials to review this case after six years? It was a distasteful and unpalatable decision in the context of the economy. Many of us have had wage increases and are used to a certain level of money. If someone told us that we would get £25 less next week, how would we feel? We would be sick and sore. The widows and widowers concerned were accustomed to a certain amount of money and decreasing that amount was regressive.

I raised this matter with the Minister on the Adjournment and I received a bland answer that non-contributory pensions are means tested and that it was tough luck and nothing could be done. The officials provided a bland answer, but if a pay level they were used to was lowered, they would not like it. I hope if the punt improves relative to sterling that the adjustment will be made in the opposite direction. Since the introduction of the euro the gap has become wider and the punt is now worth 80p sterling, which is quite a gap.

I welcome the developments in the area of disability. There has been much legislation in this area and there has been a lot of positive movement. However, much of this movement in aspirational and such aspirations can only be achieved when funding is provided. We must put our money where our mouths are and we have a chance to do so in the next budget and in coming years. I do not want another situation like the one I heard about recently.

The manager of a Brothers of Charity workshop told me that the level of funding for respite care is so small that people cannot be accommodated. He dealt with the case of the death of an elderly person looking after a daughter with Down's Syndrome. The elderly person died and was dead for several days when the gardaí broke down the door of the house. The daughter did not know what was wrong and the manager had to accommodate her immediately, but he could not do so because of his limited resources. People like Ger South in Limerick are crusaders in the area of mental handicap and a certain amount of money has been allocated to this sector. Now is our chance to address this area once and for all. If we do not do so in this budget or in coming years we should be ashamed of ourselves as politicians.

Mr. Dennehy

I join with previous speakers in welcoming the Bill. I compliment the Minister on his initiative in trying to help those on the margins. He has a great record in this area since taking office. This Bill means he will have to interact with areas outside his brief, such as the Department of Health and Children and equality authorities, and he is doing so excellently.

The Minister is anxious for the Bill to progress to Committee Stage when we will be able to put questions to him. In welcoming the Bill I particularly compliment the NRB on their work over the years. I have interacted with that body as chairman of the Southern Health Board and in connection with individual projects. Their work, both nationally and in my constituency, is to be lauded and the organisation has an excellent track record. Merging portions of their brief will help the NRB as extra funding will probably be released to it and this will help its general work.

On Committee Stage I will ask the Minister about some projects I hope will continue. For the last two years I have been trying to persuade the rehabilitation sector that a rehabilitation hospital should be built in the Cork sector of the Southern Health Board area. We have come a long way with that proposal; Rehab has committed itself to fund raising and the Southern Health Board has also committed itself when my proposal for establishing such a unit was adopted. I seek an assurance that this type of project will continue.

There are financial implications in the Bill. There will be a transfer of funds from the Department of Health and Children and I would like to see far greater interaction between the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs and the Department o Health and Children. Much of their work falls into a grey area between these Departments, particularly when dealing with the handicapped. The Minister has done tremendous work in the area of accessibility for the handicapped, but much of this work should probably be done by the Department of Health and Children. There should be greater interaction between Departments, as some of them seem to ring-fence their funding and their motto seems to be "what we have we hold". The Department of Social, Community and Affairs provides many services for which funding might be transferred from other Departments.

We have a reciprocal agreement with the United Kingdom, where many Irish people have lived, but is there any board in that country which will mirror Comhairle? We are trying to exchange and give equal benefits to people who may have worked in the UK before being handicapped, for example, so that they can draw their benefits here. Is there an equivalent to Comhairle in the UK? We had difficulties in the past finding equivalent bodies in other countries, though we have overcome many of those problems. That has been done through the efforts of the Minister, the Minister of State and their predecessors.

We should be pragmatic in our approach to these issues, particularly those which concern the handicapped. We should move speedily. Legislation is not always required, though this Bill is part of the process of modernisation and relates to the distribution of information. Many speakers have referred to this aspect of the Bill but, even though greater resources are available in this age of technology, there are more ways of conveying information, I am concerned that people are not aware of their entitlements or from where to obtain information. Deputy Hanafin referred to a lady who tried to act in time when her sight started to fail but found it impossible to obtain information and had to consult her. The gap between the distribution and receipt of services is increasing. I know the Minister is concerned about this and he has visited family and community centres to assess their suitability for distributing information. It must be distributed in the community. For various reasons, including illiteracy, many notices are not read; perhaps people ignore them because of the volume issued. There are also television advertisements but people do not get the exact information they require. I am concerned about this, although I acknowledge what the Minister is doing.

The one-stop shop is an excellent concept but it should be on the high street and available to the maximum number of people. Health boards should be instructed to notify people that all their services are available at that location. It is no longer acceptable for a person to go to a health board office for a medical card application form and be told it is available from another location perhaps four or five miles away. It is the duty of employees to ensure the service is provided. It is incumbent on those who are paid, the health boards and local authorities, to provide that service and to ensure the person looking for it is not inconvenienced. I have had previous experience of this and it is changing rapidly. I pay tribute to those involved. Many speakers referred to the staff of the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs who have been innovative in trying to help people. Notification of changes in the payment of benefits are often not read by those who are entitled to them. For example, information on the number of contributions required and the criteria for benefits is often not available and, therefore, people may not apply. If that information were provided in community centres and by local resident groups, it would pay dividends.

I would like the board to advocate the employment of people with disabilities. A conference on this was held under the auspices of the EU funded Horizon programme to help the handicapped, which has been very successful. There is an ongoing debate about the establishment of a quota in the private sector. However, first we should get our own house in order. We have fail dismally to reach the 3 per cent target for employing people with disabilities, which is a tiny figure, even though it was increased. This included more people in the scheme but the number of those employed has not been increased. The target has not been increased and the quota is still not being reached. If it cannot be done in the public service, what hope is there that it will be done in the private sector? There are arguments for and against the quota system but, because of my experience, I would argue for it.

Deputy Finucane referred to the health boards. Every six months I meet the chief executive officer and the city manager in Cork to ask them about the figures and if we have reached the target. Some Departments and offices have failed abysmally to meet the quota, including the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation where 0.8 per cent of the 126 staff are handicapped. The lowest figure is for the Chief State Solicitor's Office which employs a mere 0.5 per cent of people with disabilities among its 120 staff. That is easy to calculate. However, other Departments and offices should be lauded, including the Central Statistics Office, where 5.4 per cent of the staff come within the definition of handicapped, the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources where 4.5 per cent of the 418 staff suffer from disabilities and the Department of Defence where 4.8 per cent of the 458 staff are handicapped. I know the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Mary Wallace, is concerned at the failure to reach targets. The Departments who reach the target should be examined to see what approach they adopted. It is unsatisfactory that we set such a low target and then failed to reach it.

The Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs is always willing to act in all areas. However, often what we ask him to do is outside his brief. I welcome the merger of the NRB and the NSSB. The bureaucracy concerning the handicapped should be looked at in all areas. This was discussed in relation to the Education (Welfare) Bill yesterday and there are also social and health aspects. The amount of bureaucracy should be examined to discover the impediments to establishing, that magical word, "equality" for those we are discussing. Deputy Finucane said "we will put our money where our mouth is" and spend money in the budget, etc. However, the "we" to which he referred is this side of the House although the Opposition did do something in the past. Despite a great deal of talk, all parties failed to deliver for people with disabilities. It has been said they have no voice – a declaration with which I disagree. Members on both sides of this House have a consistent track record on this issue and are concerned about it. Bureaucracy often impedes progress and I want that examined. As Deputy Finucane said, we will all have different priorities in the budget, but the handicapped will be a priority. There is a major commitment to social inclusion in the programme for Government and in the national plan, which will allocate £40 billion. We should all have a say in deciding which issues should be given priority and there should be co-operation between all groups.

While criticising certain Departments, I should mention what is being done by others. I referred to the difficulty with communication. However, the latest series of newsletters issued by the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs is brilliant. In the past, information booklets on pensions were a catch-all effort. There is a breakdown and a separate booklet which is described as a newsletter for old age non-contributory pensioners, contributory pensioners and others. I laud the efforts of the people involved and the Minister who is giving leadership. It is a most enlightened approach because often too much is crammed into documents. People tend to look for information on what concerns them and do not read to the end of documents. I compliment the Minister on this initiative and I ask him to continue that approach because something has gone wrong regarding the distribution of information.

Other aspects of the Bill will be developed as the debate proceeds. I welcome the general thrust of the legislation but aspects of it will be questioned on Committee Stage. I appeal to the Minister to consider the number of these people employed in the public sector. I understand the overall percentage is 1.7%, which represents 3,050 persons from a total staff of 178,980. Why is the percentage so low? I am extremely worried about this matter.

I am happy that the social inclusion strategy will enable the Minister to get money from the Department of Finance to promote his programmes. I wish him well in that regard. I compliment him on the Bill and I recommend its passage. We will have an opportunity to raise further questions on Committee Stage.

Mr. M. Higgins

I am pleased to speak after Deputy Dennehy and I compliment him on his detailed contribution in relation to our achievements on the inclusion of those with disabilities. When I was the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, the location of the Department of Equality and Law Reform upstairs in the same building was not the only reason action was taken. We were committed to it and there were regular reviews, at least annually, of the departmental targets, which were met. However, the Deputy is correct to emphasise his disappointment at the achievements of other Departments and State and semi-State agencies in meeting the quota which has been set down.

I agree with the Deputy regarding its importance in terms of international experience that, where achievements such as these are expressed as targets, they are usually met in the public sector in the short-term but they are not met in the medium to long-term in the private sector. It is important to evolve from the achievement of such quotas in the public sector to their achievement in every area of society.

I wish to clarify my question on the Order of Business regarding the title of the new agency. I am not indulging in semantics but the term "comhairle" in the drafting of legislation and the establishment of bodies in the history of the State has usually preceded the proper noun, such as the Comhairle na nEalaíon, which is the Arts Council, and Comhairle na n-Ospidéal, which is the council of hospitals. One could find many other examples. My argument is that the new body should be called something like Comhairle Eolais which would be a generative and better usage of the term.

I am making this point because it is important that when the Irish language is used to give names to parties, go mbainfimis an úsáid is ceart agus is cóir astu. There is an example in section 6(1), Part II, where it is stated there shall stand established on the establishment day a body to be known as Comhairle, in this Act referred to as the board, which shall perform the functions conferred on it by or under this Act. The question is left open – it is the board of what? One cannot say the board of board or the comhairle of Comhairle. With due respect to the enlightened contribution of Deputy Hanafin in this regard, it is an inelegant and inappropriate use of the term.

Ag baint úsáid as Foclóir Uí Dhomhnaill, dúirt sí go raibh níos mó i gceist i gcomhairle ná eolas amháin agus tá an ceart aici. Ní hamháin go bhfuil eolas i gceist ach go bhfuil tú ag cabhrú leis an chaoi in a bhfuil tú agus leis an chuspóir atá agat ag cur an eolais ar fáil. An deacracht atá ag baint leis sin ná go bhfuil advocacy i gceist freisin.

The Bill later states that it will provide information, advice and advocacy. As the Deputy pointed out, information would have been "eolas" and advice "comhairle", but advocacy is also included. A better title for the agency might have been Tacú, but that would have an uncomfortable proximity to another notorious organisation, the fruits of whose existence are haunting us at the end of the 1990s. However, if one was to rely on the Ó Domhnaill usage in the fóclóir, it probably would have been closer to the three declared aims of the legislation.

However, that is a minor point in relation to the overall welcome I have for the Bill. It is important legislation in terms of the advancement of the implementation of the report and the co-ordination and better availability of services to those with disabilities who need them. One of the reasons I was anxious to contribute to the debate is that almost 20 years ago there was a debate on the balance between the State and the voluntary sector in relation to the provision of services. If I recall it correctly, it may have been sponsored by the NSSB during the time of the distinguished participation of Ms Justice Catherine McGuinness.

A seminar was held to discuss the remit of the State and the voluntary sector, a debate which has taken place in other European countries, at a time when there was a significant debate on social policy. In this regard, it is my opinion that the former President, Dr. Patrick Hillery, has never received sufficient credit for his contribution when he was a Commissioner in relation to the evolution of the debate on social policy. Others were involved but I particularly recall that aspect.

The argument was that the provision of State services met a declared need, were usually funded in response to the availability of funds from the Exchequer and, therefore, were open and accountable. Members could ask a parliamentary question about the provision of a service and a citizen could seek a judicial review of a service once it was established. One could seek an order of mandamus insisting on one's right. However, on the down side, it was suggested that sometimes these were administered in a narrow and categorical manner which did not take account of special circumstances.

The voluntary sector suggested that it could respond to the particulars of a case with greater discretion, that it could deal with cases that were in between different provisions and that it was more innovative. However, on the down side, frequently it was not as accountable as State provision and the question remained, how does one meet the rights of the citizen in a way that is inclusive of the best efforts of the voluntary sector but which has the legal certainty, openness, transparency and accountability of State provision?

My view at that time was that there was still a long way to go in relation to expanding the State provision, and I put my own efforts into that category. I was also worried about the remit of the voluntary sector in so far as some categories of need were more highly organised than others. There was an uneven picture in relation to the ability of people who relied primarily on the voluntary sector. However, it is clear that what was necessary then and what has been needed since, and towards which we are beginning to grope our way, is a charter or a balance of co-operation between State and voluntary provision.

There is no longer any excuse in times of surplus to argue that the voluntary provision should be anything other than the innovative provision. It should not be a substitute for State provision. That case has disappeared. Those who have been supplying services and assistance the State should have provided have a right to feel abused in the sense that they filled gaps and were regarded as a substitute for State provision.

One matter will always be important in the voluntary sector, its ability to identify new needs ahead of the State system. From the time legislation was passed and ministerial instruments put in place, the State system tended to protect its boundaries. I will not burden the House with the quasi-constitutional, at best, but really unconstitutional role of the Department of Finance in relation to other Departments, something about which I intend to continue to speak. It does not have a constitutional basis nor is it specified in the Ministers and Secretaries Act of the 1920s. It is a practice that grew out of what is termed in the Department "the principle of continuity" which can be decoded to mean "we got away with it for years and we should be able to get away with it". Therefore, it slid, with a sort of sleight of hand, the practices of the British Treasury into the early practices of the Irish State. Seven years after the establishment of the Irish State, British Treasury officials went home and said they were satisfied things could carry on more or less as they were. That type of dead hand approach in Departments should be ended. I pay tribute to the Minister who is taking a new approach. He has my support in trying to shake off that practice in some sort of constitutional manner. I must emphasise this is not a constitutional power.

On the question of centralisation, the difficulty about the administration of many State services is the absence of delegated discretion. I know of very few states in Europe which have as little delegated discretion as the Irish. It is ridiculous that administration requires so much consent from the top. I would be pleased if someone could prove me wrong in this belief. The difficulty with receiving a service lies in the way in which it is delivered. However, there has been a welcome change in the ethos which prevails, although those on the ground regularly refer to their difficulties in relation to clearances permitted. I am in favour of looser legislation to allow maximum discretion.

The Minister raised an interesting concept when he said the Government fully supports the principle that people with disabilities are entitled to all the rights and privileges associated with citizenship and that all obstacles to the enjoyment of these privileges should be removed. He is correct. However, he referred later to achieving greater equality. One is either equal or not. By any deconstruction, "greater equality" means there is inequality. One can speak about "reduced inequality" or "greater equality" but, frankly, "reduced inequality" is the more accurate usage.

Most who are involved in this area would be perfectly willing to specify what they mean by "equality". Equality means not only equality of provision across the statutes of the legislation, but also equality in one's discretion in terms of the right to choose. People with disabilities will, in different circumstances, exercise choice in, for example, their decisions to seek a State provision where it is provided. They may or may not seek provision from the voluntary sector and – this is only now beginning to be discussed among the different groups – the disabled person with special needs has the right to purchase the services he or she need to achieve their full citizenship rights. That third component is interesting from because the person seeking equality will raise this issue. If one were to argue from a citizenship point of view about one's right to participate fully in society and to find what one requires to meet one's needs, for example, from the State, the voluntary sector or in the marketplace, why should a disabled person, to which the Minister referred, or a person with special needs be singularly precluded from purchasing what he or she needs, if it is available? I am referring, for example, to hiring a special companion or assistant, a special type of computer or purchasing something that person needs, be it human or material. If one is to achieve equality in terms of participation under the theory of citizenship, one must acknowledge the strategies available to any citizen to meet his or her needs in different ways. This issue will surface. However, I welcome the Minister's acceptance of the principle of citizenship in his speech.

The report adopted three guiding principles – equality, maximising participation and enabling independence of choice. What I have just said deals with the issue of independence of choice. Maximising participation means having a run right across the institutional nexus of the society in which the person participates from childhood to late adulthood. This raises many issues about not just education but about other forms of social participation, and it extends beyond the marketplace. One of the welcome distinctive aspects of Irish politics – I frequently note its negative characteristics – is that we may be ahead of the posse in abandoning the notion that the marketplace will ever deliver rights to people. The structure of the market as a provider probably received its most extensive application in the New Zealand economy a few years ago. It is there the greatest complete internal collapse in market theory is taking place. It was a nightmare in terms of what it managed right across the spectrum from social provisions to special care. Of its nature, this collapse was almost inevitable. There was a great debate between Professor Titmuss, the great advocate of public health in Britain and of universal social coverage, and Professor Acton who developed the idea of a market mechanism in the provision of rights in Britain. Acton's theories led to the complete distortion of the pension provision in Britain and to the barbarism of the Thatcher years.

In 1999, we should celebrate that we survived the Thatcher-Reagan period with its comprehensive destruction of solidarity, social care and so on. It was a singularly miserable and narrow piece of scholarship invented by Friedrich von Hayek and used by unprincipled politicians to try to row us back to the 18th century.

It is interesting that the Bill is limited in what it sets out to do. It provides a new mechanism for the provision of information, advice and advocacy. I have used the information leaflets of the NSSB for many years. I pay tribute to the board, not only for the way in which it generally distributed information but for small simple things which it saw early on, such as providing information in a way which could be stored easily even in a time when we had ring-binders, and also its attempt to disseminate its information widely. I welcomed the provision of information at that time.

Furthermore, the use which was made of that information differed in many parts of the country. For example, it is a great pity that the editors of national and of provincial newspapers did not build on the fine example of some of their number. Some of them ran columns based on the information which was available generally and, in doing so, enhanced the dissemination of the information.

I need not delay on the detail of the Bill. I hope that the section providing for the transition of the staff's conditions and pay includes adequate provision for pension. I think the provision is similar to that of other legislation.

As other Deputies said, I hope we get to a point where the Bill will be taken as a signal to all agencies that they should try to be aware of what everyone else is doing so inquiries initiated at any part of the service provision network, will immediately be able to be relayed to points of more appropriate assistance.

Mr. Callely

The establishment of Comhairle I understand, is to combine services provided by the National Social Services Board with certain disability support functions of the National Rehabilitation Board. The Bill provides for mainstreaming the provision of services for people with a disability and in that regard I cautiously welcome it.

I pay tribute to both boards, for which I have the height of admiration and respect because of the Trojan work and information which they provide to the community and society at large. The NSSB provides a tremendous source of information and knowledge and is a great support to a large number of citizens information centres and voluntary community centres. The NRB also does great work, providing valuable support functions.

I understand Comhairle will be the mainstream support agency for information services. The Minister stated in his speech that it will be "for all people, including those with disabilities." I would be grateful if he would provide clarification on the level of support for all people.

I acknowledge and pay tribute to the volunteer army of people who operate in the community and provide valuable supports for people in need. I pay tribute to the organisations working in the constituency of Dublin North-Central. Long before its time, we were fortunate to have the Council for Co-ordination of Social Services in Sybil Hill in Raheny. It has done exactly what many organisations need to do, that is bring together various components to provide the best information and support service which can be provided to those in need. I congratulate those who founded the centre some 25 years ago, some of whom are still involved, but in particular, the principal, Ms Eileen Hutchinson, and her team. Across the constituency of Dublin North-Central there are many other people working in the community providing an enormous support, which on occasions goes unrecognised and, indeed, even unnoticed by those other than the people in need of the service.

I welcome the mainstreaming of support service agencies at a central level as is provided for in the Bill. While I appreciate the focus on people with a disability, I am equally concerned that some of the general citizen information which heretofore was provided by the NSSB should continue to be available. I found the NSSB helpful in this regard. Its service proved beneficial to those in need of such information and I hope the Minister in his reply will highlight that this role will continue.

When one compares some of the services available to different groups of people, one group about which I am concerned is the homeless. There are a number of people, who are not au fait with the services which should be available to them and cannot tap into them too easily. At a recent health board meeting I was somewhat surprised and disappointed to learn, when I read a document outlining the array of services and supports which are rightly available to asylum seekers and asked for a comparison with the services which were available for the homeless, that the homeless were not able to avail of a number of services of which one would expect any individual in those circumstances would be easily able to avail. Will the Minister clarify that the support agency will provide information services for all people and, in particular, the homeless? What exact role will Comhairle play in that regard?

I am pleased, following that meeting, to have pioneered a project for the homeless in Dublin between Dublin Corporation and the Eastern Health Board at Park Gate Hall. As chairman of the Eastern Health Board, I hope to make an announcement on that later in the year. It is a group of people for whom I have genuine concern. It is a sad reflection on society that we still have so many people sleeping rough on our streets.

I commend the Minister for providing that people with disabilities will be treated the same as their fellow citizens by having services delivered to them by this mainstream agency which will provide that service to the rest of the community. I hope the Minister will expand on that.

The Minister stated that this represents a significant change of approach in that to date people with a disability had their services provided via the Department of Health and Children. Services have been provided from a health perspective rather than that which is outlined here. This is a radical change which will be welcomed.

I am also encouraged by the Minister's statement that "The new mainstreaming approach now proposed is not intended to replace such measures but to operate in parallel with them". However, I am concerned because the body to which I referred, the Council for the Co-ordination of Social Services, which is based at Sybil Hill, Raheny, made an application to the Department in respect of funding for IT facilities which was turned down. If we are determined to promote participation in society and encourage people to access information, it is important to ensure that Comhairle has sufficient funds available to it or that it has the authority to ensure that the necessary funds will be provided to those bodies that are able to improve, enhance and develop the services they already offer. Will the Minister indicate how Comhairle will be funded and what additional funding will be made available to ensure that the groups associated with the NSSB and the NRB are supplied with the resources they require?

I wish to raise another issue relating to the NRB. An officer of the board has brought to my attention the complications that people with disabilities experience in terms of participating in society. I refer here to disabled drivers' and passengers tax concessions. There may be a need for a number of Ministers to jointly consider the feasibility of introducing appropriate amendments to primary medical certificates to ensure that people with disabilities can fully participate in society. I understand that the Department of Finance may be restricted in this regard but there could be tremendous benefits from the point of view of the Departments of Health and Children and Social, Community and Family Affairs. I ask the Ministers to come together to see what progress can be made.

While I appreciate the work invested both in terms of drafting the Bill and putting the necessary structures in place, I draw to the Minister's attention – he is aware of my record in this regard – the needs of those who provide home help and other caring services. The difficulties in these areas do not merely relate to funding, they also relate to the lack of people available to provide such services. This shortfall has been caused by the current economic climate and the availability of other work, for which people are being well paid. By whom are the home helps who provide essential services in the community employed? There is shyness on the part of various Departments to reveal which of them has responsibility for these people. It is fair to say that without these people we could not survive. The same goes for carers.

Another issue of concern to carers and home helps is the provision of training and other supports. I wholeheartedly support the strong case put forward by the Carers Association in respect of the improvements required by carers and home helps. For example, let us consider the case of a carer who has developed a close relationship with the person for whom they have cared over many months and years. What supports will be put in place to support such a carer when the said relationship is cut short as a result of the death of the person for whom they have cared? I am aware of cases which merit the putting in place of special supports. Such supports do not exist, but they should. The same applies in respect of training and supports for home helps.

Before I conclude I wish to state – I do this without the permission of the individual concerned but I have no doubt that, because of the publicity she has already received, she will appreciate me mentioning her name – that we should be proud that a person with a disability is currently participating in the Sydney Paralympics. I refer here to Patrice Dockery, an employee of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, on whose behalf I made representations to the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment that she should not only be allowed to participate but that she should be given paid leave. I congratulate the Tánaiste for responding positively in that regard.

The main purpose of the Bill is to ensure that individuals have access to accurate, comprehensive and clear information, advice and advocacy services on the full range of social services. In that context, the provision of information is an essential element of the relationship between social service providers and the people who use their services. I wish to ensure that social service providers have access to the relevant IT facilities to allow them to promote such information. As we enter the new millennium, we must ensure that such facilities are put in place.

I welcome the Minister's statement that the first priority of Comhairle will be to ensure there is no disruption of services during the transition period. I congratulate him on including that provision in the Bill. I compliment him on his foresight and also on the radical approach he has taken to try to improve the services which are already in place but which have not yet been mainstreamed.

I commend the Bill to the House and I move the adjournment of the debate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not necessary to move the adjournment because there is a minute remaining before Question Time.

Mr. Kenny

There is no need for Deputy Callely to do that, he can continue until Question Time begins.

Mr. Callely

In that case, I wish to support what the Minister said about the large number of people who, for one reason or another, will shy away from making contact with a Department, their local authority or a health board office. These people would much prefer to have such information available on a parochial basis. I support the Minister's comments in respect of this matter.

I wish to place on record my concern about the growing level of bureaucracy at local level. There has been a great deal of change at local level; local authorities have established a new layer of officialdom. The same is true at health board level. In my area – which is part of the area covered by the Eastern Health Board – a proposed new board is coming on stream in March, the Eastern Regional Health Authority, which will have three further boards under it. This will replace the Eastern Health Board. I am concerned about the operation of these boards and the impact this officialdom will have on the availability of the necessary information and services provided by such authorities. I can see the benefit of the appointment of one individual who will have responsibility for a total region.

Debate adjourned.