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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Dec 1999

Vol. 512 No. 4

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1999: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Acting Chairman

We must wait for a few minutes.

For what are we waiting?

Acting Chairman

The ICC Bank Bill, 1999, finished earlier than was expected. I understand the Minister has been contacted.

I understand the Minister has spoken, as have I.

Acting Chairman

I do not have the list in front of me.

I register my disapproval at the manner in which this matter is being handled. I suggest that if we cannot deal with it, the House should be suspended.

Acting Chairman

We could suspend the sitting now as it was scheduled to suspend at 12.45 p.m.

I am taking the Bill on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who is tied up at a committee meeting.

Acting Chairman

I do not have a list of speakers.

If Deputy Flanagan is the next speaker, we can continue with our business.

The Minister is adding to the shambles of this legislation. If the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Treacy, is in charge of the Bill, perhaps he could inform the House of his intentions.

My interpretation of the situation is that we are on Second Stage. I will respond on Second Stage at the appropriate time when the House has concluded its deliberations on an important topical issue.

It is difficult to discuss the Bill in its current format because we do not know what the Government will propose on Committee Stage. There is a strong indication it will propose amendments on Committee Stage, which I hope it does. It is ludicrous to allow licensed premises to serve drink for 36 hours. The publicans were strongly against this proposal when it was first mooted. I welcome the proposal to remove the anomaly whereby night clubs are breaking the law by opening on a Saturday night. They have to provide meals for people on a Saturday night. Most Members of the House would not frequent nightclubs, but I go to The Planet in Ballinasloe, a club the Minister knows well, or Rockford's in Roscommon, where I see many of his constituents.

Some very nice constituents.

I will not deny that. The food being given out in those places, however, is slop. The nightclubs do the bare minimum when providing a meal to secure a bar extension. No one in his right mind would touch a meal in a nightclub. This anomaly should be resolved in the new legislation and nightclubs should be given an option to provide substantial meals if they so wish. They should not be dictated to that there must be a meal to secure an extension because that can be taken to mean that as long as they serve a meal it does not matter about the standard of the meal.

There are serious questions to be asked about this legislation. When will the new legislation announced by the Minister in September be introduced? The Minister said on 14 October that there would be major reforms of the licensing laws, but we have no idea when those reforms will come into effect. There will be significant changes to the licensing hours. Will this legislation introduce those changes on Committee Stage? The Government is running around like a headless chicken over this legislation. When this Bill was published to a huge fanfare about the 36 hour drinking and the removal of the anomaly for nightclubs, suddenly the publicans and the Government backbenchers rose up against the legislation and it was abandoned. Now it has arisen again like the phoenix. Will the Government amend the legislation? Will it go ahead with the idea of being able to drink all day, all night and all the following day? The publicans, the general public and the Government's backbenchers do not want that. I hope there will be an amendment which will resolve this matter.

There must be changes along the lines announced by the Minister on 14 October. It is, however, a disgrace that we have been given such a short time today to debate this Bill – the legislation will be guillotined. Even now, on Committee Stage, we do not know what the Government will do. There is only one hour set aside for Committee Stage. That is ludicrous. Everyone knows legislation dealing with liquor licensing is complex. We cannot decide our plans in a couple of hours. It does not give the Opposition an opportunity to read the legislation. We were under the impression that this legislation would be abandoned.

We must liberalise the liquor licensing laws. They are out of line with every other European state. The anomaly of winter and summer hours only adds to the confusion. It does not help the tourism industry.

Some people have said that if we extend pub opening hours, there will be an increase in alcoholism. The alcoholism problem could not get much worse. Most people will only drink a certain amount. Over recent years people have started to go to pubs later, particularly at weekends. During the summer many farmers would work until late at night before going for a drink, but under the current legislation they are breaking the law if they go for a pint when they finish their day's work.

I disagree with the Government's proposal to introduce all day drinking. The Government should make an effort to combat underage drinking and alcoholism when it introduces these new laws. The Minister announced in January that he would introduce a national identity card system. It was an optional system but it was a welcome move. Then the Minister decided not to put the resources or administration procedures in place. Young people would go to a Garda station, fill out the application form, pay the £5 fee and then would have to wait three months to receive the identity card. That is ridiculous.

Eventually the Minister realised the problem and put the procedures in place, but it still takes up to three weeks for a young person to get an identity card. The scheme requires 15 working days. The Minister of State can say what he likes, but I was given these figures in a reply to a parliamentary question. It takes a week for the form to get from Ballinasloe Garda station, for example, to Harcourt Street Garda station and then it takes two weeks for the application to be processed before the young person gets the identity card.

The Deputy said it took three months.

Yes, it used to take three months. When it was introduced the forms sat on a desk in Harcourt Street Garda station because the procedures were not put in place. The Minister put forward the proposal with great fanfare without putting resources in place. What sort of a commitment is that to combat underage drinking? When the scheme was announced we were told that identity cards would be issued within five working days. We have since found out that it takes three weeks. Is the Minister of State poor at mathematics or did he not think this through?

In the new legislation, whenever it is introduced, there must be major changes to address underage drinking. There are suggestions that the Minister will transfer the onus from the garda, who has to prove someone is under age and that the publican is aware of that, to the publican who would have to ensure the person is over 18 years of age.

It is futile to talk about under-age drinking when every young person has access not only to alcohol but to Ecstasy, hash and so on. However, we must start somewhere and if we are serious about it, this is the place to start. We also need to look at the issue of alcoholism, even if it is dealt with by the Department of Health and Children rather than the Minister's Department. A few years ago people were seen as macho men if they drank 15 pints and then drove home. However, that is no longer the done thing, especially among young people. I give credit to people of my generation. They respect the drink driving laws. Many are criticised for what they do not do and for the way they abuse systems and so on. However, they are leading the campaign against the unacceptable practice of drink driving.

The taxi and hackney shortage is prevalent throughout the country and not only in Dublin. In the Minister of State's town of Ballinasloe it is difficult to get a taxi on a Saturday night. The same applies to Athlone and any other town. If we are serious about combating drink driving, we must ensure that taxi and hackney licences are available to ensure that people travelling home are not obliged to use their cars.

Resources must be allocated to deal with alcoholism because it is an awful cross which many families must bear. It has been brushed under the carpet for years because there has been a denial of the problem, especially among older age groups. Please God there will be changes in this area. While mindsets on drink driving have changed, there is still a certain respect for the man who becomes ossified every night of the week. That kind of behaviour must be seen as anti-social.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has two minutes before the sitting is suspended. The debate will be resumed this evening.

It is important that we debate this issue thoroughly, especially as this is our only opportunity to do so. The Taoiseach gave a commitment that the debate would not be guillotined at 7 p.m. I intend to speak for the 20 minutes available to me because it is the only opportunity I will get to address this issue.

More pub licences are required. While there are plenty of pubs in many rural areas, there is a shortage in urban areas, especially in Dublin. For example, there are three or four pubs in Tallaght, which is as big as Limerick city. That is madness. They hold a monopoly and are naturally milking the system. The vintners cannot be blamed for the present position. They do not want to see additional licences because they have a vested interest in maintaining the present position. However, if we are serious about drink driving we must ensure that pubs are located in local communities.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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