Salary scales for professional and technical staff in CSSO
Professional StaffAssistant Solicitor: 16,072 – 17,804 – 19,814 – 21,845 – 23,763 – 25,628 – 26,452 plus two long service increments to 27,432 and 28,411.
Senior Assistant Solicitor: 30,807 – 31,906 – 33,113 – 34,267 – 35,420 – 36,083 plus two long service increments to 37,249 and 38,416.
Technical StaffLaw Clerk: 13,050 – 13,631 – 14,565 – 15,050 – 15,535 – 16,022 – 16,508 – 16,993 – 17,480 plus two long service increments to 17,983 and 18,483.
Legal Clerk: 17,710 – 18,410 – 18,841 – 19,272 – 19,702 – 20,133 – 20,566 – 20,976 plus two long service increments to 21,579 and 22,182.
I thank the Taoiseach for correcting the record and for eliminating some of the erroneous and damaging information that he, perhaps inadvertently, put on the record of the House on 8 February. However, it is not clear from the thrust of his reply if he accepts the thesis that given the shortage of professional staff across the economy, and the comparatively low levels of payment at junior and middle ranks both for professionally qualified staff and for technically qualified assistants, the Chief State Solicitor's Office will be incapable of servicing the needs of the State with the scale of expertise and professional experience it requires. Accordingly, does the Taoiseach not agree that the crisis facing the Government's legal services is not dissimilar to that which faced the financial services of the Government when the National Treasury Management Agency was established?
In light of his corrected and better informed analysis of the situation, does he now have a view whether we should not change the status of the CSSO and enable it to operate with a degree of autonomy similar to that of the NTMA?
This matter has been looked at a number of times. In fact, it has been looked at almost continually since 1996 when the Deloitte & Touche report made certain recommendations. Those were implemented almost in full by the Attorney General of the day, bar one of the clauses which has still not been implemented. Further matters were considered by the law officers review group which has been implementing them. I recently answered questions in the House concerning the Nally review group whose recommendations are to change the structure whereby the criminal case sections would move to the DPP's office. Those legislatively based powers and functions will be answerable to the DPP's office, and a solicitor from that office would deal with the section. Those recommendations are being implemented.
While I am loath to go off at a tangent, there clearly are difficulties in obtaining professional staff. While this is not a criticism of Deputy Quinn's question—
—it is constantly coming up now in different areas that the way to solve the professional grade is to get away from the old structures and set up an NTMA position, which is really designed to get the larger salary structures out of the Civil Service system.
The Dáil should be put under the aegis of the NTMA.
The end result would be that the whole system would be under the NTMA. I know that is not what Deputy Quinn said, but the argument is constantly being used.
The Department of Finance should be put under the aegis of the NTMA.
Possibly. They would love that, as Deputy Bruton knows.
It was taken out of it in the first place when I was in there, but it is not that simple. On a serious level, there are problems in this area. As I said the last day, the fundamental point is that people are still moving from that grade upwards. Having discussed the matter, people think that might not continue to occur to the level it currently does. The Department of Finance and the Attorney General have agreed on a fundamental review, involving IMPACT, to see how they can resolve the staffing and structures in this particular area to the best of their ability. Even with some improvement, it will still be difficult to get solicitors to stay in the system for a long period.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply and, while disregarding some of the more humorous aspects of it, I would ask him to consider three things. First, the volume of litigation against the State is at an unprecedented level, and is probably rising. Second, inefficiencies or lack of staff within the CSSO, as we all know through a number of different Administrations, are costing taxpayers a veritable fortune. Third, would the Taoiseach not agree that a proposal that originated in the previous Administration – which was not exactly strangled at birth but was at least starved of feed by the present Minister for Finance – to establish a claims agency—
I am sorry, but I happen to know what happened.
The Deputy did nothing about it.
Just go and meet the credit unions and do something decent for a change.
The Deputy did nothing about it at all.
Just go and do your job, and stop heckling. The reality is that we are facing an enormous amount of money which, if it was saved, would build the dream stadium to which the Taoiseach is so committed and which the rest of us would like to see. When will the Taoiseach do something about it? As Taoiseach he has the power. We could deal with this issue. The solicitors who are leaving the public service are not disappearing; they are going elsewhere in society. We are losing a veritable fortune in taxpayers' money because of collective incompetence in dealing with the problem at ministerial level, when we had the template in the past. As a result the taxpayers are paying out a fortune. The problem does not belong to one Administration but it happens to be occurring on the Taoiseach's watch. There are proposals for dealing with it and there is a precedent for doing so. The NTMA is not something that one would use to replace—
The Deputy appears to be making a long statement.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that to suggest that the NTMA model would ultimately be used to replace Leitrim County Council is a nonsense?
I never mentioned Leitrim County Council, wherever that came in, but the national claims agency is going ahead. It will be under the NTMA so that issue is being dealt with. There are more than 223 people working in the Chief State Solicitor's office, and the number has risen annually in recent years.
That is correct and most of the contract staff are dealing with claims in one particular area. Hopefully that situation will resolve itself, but that is why there are contract workers. The Deloitte & Touche report which was published at the end of 1996 was fully implemented in 1997 and in the first half of 1998. The Law Services Officer Review was implemented and the Nally review is being implemented. Every one of those reports has brought more technology, more staff and an increase in grades. Detailed discussions are going on to see what is needed to deal with the situation now. As Deputy Quinn knows, in good times, people who are in these grades – even the people who are in the first promotional grade – can command higher salaries after a period, and that is why they are moving on. Perhaps the second reason is that, because of the structure, they do not think there will be many senior positions for them later on.
The Taoiseach is describing the problem but what is the solution?
At present, IMPACT, the Department of Finance and the Office of the Attorney General are painstakingly going through the grades and staffing structures to try to devise and improve the position for the third time in three years. The Deputy is correct in saying that the workload of litigation is increasing in all areas, but so is the size of the Chief State Solicitor's office, and so is the cost of the reforms, but that is a necessary part of it. The Deputy's suggestions have not been brought to my attention, although I have been asked by IMPACT and others to try to do other things.
Of course IMPACT will not go in. They want to get the knock-on effect that would run through every other sector of the public service. The Taoiseach has been long enough in the business to know what their game is.
Yes, but in fairness, some of the law grades are not linked to other areas.
(Mayo): I am glad the Taoiseach has corrected the record of the House because his comments on the last occasion certainly inflamed passions within the CSSO. On the last occasion, the Taoiseach said people were being head hunted, but that is inaccurate. People are not being head hunted, they are actually leaving. The reasons they are leaving are threefold. First, there is a ridiculously low salary scale – an assistant temporary solicitor gets £13,670. There are secretaries getting more than solicitors with degrees and two years' apprenticeships and this should be tackled on that basis. Another problem is literally on the Taoiseach's left. The Department of Finance has steadfastly refused to appoint people on a permanent basis at that level. Unless that issue is tackled this matter will not be resolved. The third aspect is the impossible workload, where people are not only working their ordinary hours but must work until 8 or 9 p.m. and one day each weekend in the majority of cases due to the increase in workload. The Taoiseach gained something of a reputation as a Minister for Labour for mediating and resolving matters and he should use his good offices in this case.
He cannot get the Minister for Finance to meet the credit unions.
(Mayo): I agree, but perhaps this time he will be able to kick-start the action. I ask him to intervene so that the cogs of the State's criminal justice system no longer grind to a halt.
I have already outlined the negotiations which are going on between the Attorney General, IMPACT and the CSSO to see what can be done to resolve this matter. None of the 25 assistant solicitors have more than two years and eight months' permanent service—
(Mayo): Because assistant solicitors are leaving.
They are leaving, but the pay for the grade above them is £16,072 to £27,432 and with service, £28,400. The senior assistant solicitor's pay goes up to £38,416.
(Mayo): That is the point. He will not appoint them, so they cannot get there. The avenue is blocked off.
The avenue is blocked off for those that can go no further than that. The problem is that they can see very few opportunities. My reply stated that if one looks to promotional opportunities from there up over the next three years, only eight or nine posts can be identified. There might be some consequential posts also and people may reach £38,000 or £39,000 with the service or they might look elsewhere.
That is penny wise, pound foolish.
I do not think so. The grades are not that low at the levels Deputy Higgins is referring to.
(Mayo): If they are permanent.
If they are permanent. Those are 223 posts in the service.
Does the Taoiseach think it unfair of me to suggest he sounds like a well informed but entirely detached observer of this problem, rather than a chief executive whose problem this is and who is trying to solve it?
This problem has been going on for several years and each time a report has been done on it or the work has increased, people have moved on. The difficulty is being created by the fact that people are moving out of the system while the work is growing. Deputy Higgins said people are working late and on weekends. That is a regular feature of work in many Government Departments and State agencies all the time, so it is not a unique feature to this section.
This issue has been addressed three or four times by successive Governments and I will make sure this attempt to resolve it is implemented, as I have done with the last two efforts. Approaches were agreed, but then people come up with more demands and the workload increases, so additional staff are required. We have tried to address that and I do not accept that there has been enormous movement in this area in recent years.
Does the Taoiseach agree that the credibility of his Department, as leader of what is grandly titled the strategic management initiative, is somewhat undermined by the fact that in terms of strategic management, the biggest slum in the public service is in the legal service of his own Department, for which he is responsible? Does he accept that there is no strategic management whatever in this institution but crisis management of a chronic kind ruling every day there? Does he agree that this problem needs to be taken by the scruff of the neck at political level and dealt with once and for all? I know the Taoiseach does not have the time to do it, but he should appoint one of his existing Ministers of State to deal with the issue of the legal services of the State once and for all. He could give that Minister of State a timeframe of a year or two to solve the problem as well as giving him the financial and political authority to do so. The crossdepartmental approach of the strategic management initiative could be used and the Minister of State could be appointed to his Department, the Department of Finance and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, so that that one individual would have all the relevant files.
I do not accept what Deputy Bruton is trying to say – that the whole area is in some major crisis. Its workload has increased dramatically, but so have staff numbers and reforms in the office. There have been examinations – the Deloitte & Touche report of 1996, the Law Office report of 1997 and the Nally report of 1999.
If the Taoiseach gave the office half the money given to consultants, there would be less of a problem. Consultants are the bane of political life.
I do not know why the Deputy put them in, in 1996.
I do not think it is a solution. It clearly has not worked. If I did do it, it has not worked. The Taoiseach knows that and should deal with it.
It was of some benefit. All the reports were implemented. In fairness, Army deafness claims, hepatitis C claims and other claims have put enormous pressure and hundreds of cases on to the workload, not to mind litigation in every other Department. They have dealt with thousands of claims.
That is why we need a claims agency.
The Nally report's implementation is happening and I hope it will be worked out with IMPACT shortly.
That concludes Taoiseach's Question Time.
