Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Feb 2000

Vol. 515 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. a19, Finance Bill, 2000 – Financial Resolutions (Nos. 1 – 39); No. 19, Finance Bill, 2000 – Allocation of Time Motion for Select Committee; No. 43b, Motion re: Placing of Contingent of Permanent Defence Force under Authority of UNTAET; No. 5, Social Welfare Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; No. 44, Statements on the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness (to be taken not later than immediately following the announcement of matters on the adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the order shall not resume thereafter)

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) Nos. a19, 19 and 43b shall be decided without debate, and in the case of No. a19, Financial Resolutions, Nos. 1 – 39 shall be moved together and decided by one Question which shall be put from the Chair; (2) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 44: (i) the opening statement of the Taoiseach and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other member shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. a19, 19, and 93b agreed to?

Mrs. Owen

If the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste agree to a change in the Financial Resolutions vis-à-vis the credit unions, will that be made known to the House when these issues are being taken? Will the Taoiseach be able to get the Minister for Finance to go along with whatever he promises the credit unions? It is important we know what is promised today and whether the Minister for Finance will take instruction from the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy tables a question to the Minister for Finance, he will give a report on that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed?

(Interruptions).

Mrs. Owen

I did not hear what the Taoiseach said. The Minister for Finance broke his silence and wanted to say something. I thought it might be useful to the debate if he were to tell us that he now intends to go to the meeting with the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste. Is that what the Minister is trying to tell us? Is the Minister going to the meeting?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question that the proposal for dealing with Nos. a19, 19 and 93 be agreed. Is it agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 44 agreed?

Mr. Quinn

We sought to have this matter debated and the Government agreed. The Order has now been altered because of an interpretation of precedent which I want to draw to the attention of the House. It is unlikely we will have the full 55 minutes this afternoon if Question Time overruns or there are constraints on time. However, the Office of the Ceann Comhairle has interpreted that anything referred to in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness is automatically excluded from being the subject of a parliamentary question at any stage, so long as that item stays on the Order Paper.

An Ceann Comhairle

That cannot be debated now.

Mr. Stagg

It has to be debated now. There is no place else to debate it.

Mr. Quinn

I am explaining to the House why we are reluctantly agreeing to this restriction. It was on our observation of this point last night at the Whips' meeting that the Government Chief Whip, having confirmed our interpretation, was obliged to terminate a debate which, of its nature, will be confined effectively to three party spokespersons, excluding other parties and Deputies who want to participate. The nation is to vote on this within the various trade unions and, because of self-imposed rules in this House, for which the Chair is not responsible, but the interpretation of which is a function of his Office, we are now prevented from debating it adequately. That makes a mockery of democracy, whatever about partnership.

An Ceann Comhairle

That applies by precedent when the statement is taken and there are questions in the one week.

Mr. Stagg

If that is the case, why is there provision on the agenda for a debate on railways but we can ask questions on railways? Why can we ask questions on railways but not on this?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair cannot be cross-examined on that manner.

Mr. Stagg

We have to do something to stop this House turning into a farce.

Mr. Sargent

I object to No. 44 in the light of the restricted time. Deputy Quinn called it "restriction", but it is strangulation in the case of the Green Party.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for decision by the House.

Mr. Sargent

I ask the Chair to bear in mind that this is not a debate in any sense of the word. My question to the Taoiseach has been ruled out in anticipation of a debate in which I am denied participation. Will the Chair deal with that matter and have it put back to be considered for a longer debate?

An Ceann Comhairle

The proposal is now being put and it is a matter for the House to decide.

Mr. Sargent

I am objecting to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the proposal. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 44 agreed to?

Question put and declared carried.

Mrs. Owen

Will the Taoiseach be able to instruct his Minister for Finance to agree to anything that he agrees with the credit unions, so that it will be included in the Financial Resolutions of the Finance Bill? Will he actually obey the Taoiseach this time, even though he will not go to the meeting? I want to know if the Minister for Finance will be made to fulfil any agreement.

A Deputy

Charlie will have to be out on the plinth again.

Mrs. Owen

We are obviously at a very sensitive stage in Northern Ireland and nobody in the House wants to add to the tension there. However, I would like to know the Taoiseach's view of the statement by Mr. Adams that the time for his party being a messenger on arms is almost over. If there is not a link between Sinn Féin and its role in convincing – as the Good Friday Agreement obliges it to – the IRA to hand over its weapons, that is a very serious state of affairs. Does the Taoiseach have anything he wishes to inform the House about?

The Taoiseach

I do not want to reply to any specific statement other than to say that both Governments and the pro-Agreement parties, and I hope all parties, are doing all they can. Discussions and consultations are still going on at all levels, although there has not been a particular breakthrough. However, we are determined to keep at it until we find a way of dealing with this issue. Arms, demilitarisation and all the other issues are still on the agenda and we will continue to consult and discuss until we find a resolution.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Taoiseach say whether the Government and the British Government have given any further thought to the proposal I made yesterday in the House that all of the parties to the agreement should be convened by both Governments and, in addition, that the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation should be reconvened in Dublin Castle?

The Taoiseach

I am seriously examining that matter but it is a question of timing. If there is no immediate progress which, quite frankly, I do not think there will be, then we should look at that, and I will consult the party leaders.

Mr. Quinn

On a separate matter, No. 108 on the Order Paper, is a technical motion that is required to be moved in Government time without debate in order for us to move a Private Members' Bill, one of the effects of which would be to enable the Government to give immediate aid relief to Mozambique, whose plight we heard about this morning on Morning Ireland. I wonder if, because of the interpretation of the legislation by the Ceann Comhairle's office, it would be possible for the Government to give consideration to this technical motion, which would pave the way for this Private Members' Bill to be debated on Private Members' time.

The Taoiseach

I understand there will be a meeting shortly on some technical issues and, as I said the other day, the Government is looking at that matter. That item will be on the agenda so that we can consider whether that or some other means can be used to deal with it.

Mr. Quinn

I would like to clarify that matter. The net point is that if the Taoiseach allows No. 108, to be moved without debate, it will enable the Labour Party to use its Private Members' time to introduce a Bill that would have the effect of increasing our development co-operation aid up to the figure of 0.7% of GNP. We are prohibited by the rules of the House from moving such a Bill unless it is cleared technically at this stage. I am simply asking for the matter to be put on the Order of Business by the Government so that it can be taken without debate and we can thus be facilitated. That does not require a special committee.

Mr. Howlin

It is to remove the block.

The Taoiseach

I have already said that we are looking at it. Deputy Quinn says it is a simple matter, but it is not, because the effect of it would be—

Mr. Howlin

Yes it is.

The Taoiseach

No, it is not a simple matter. It would have the effect of allowing a Private Members' Bill to raise money, and that has not ever been the practice. It is a money Bill and that is prohibited under the rules. The effect would be a major and substantial change.

Mr. Quinn

Is the Taoiseach worried that the Independent Deputies will desert him?

The Taoiseach

It is not a simple matter so do not try to portray it as such. It will be examined and discussed by the relevant committee shortly.

Mr. Yates

As regards forthcoming legislation, the Gas Bill has been promised, to deal with capacity allocation which is vital to electricity liberalisation and also to implementing an EU gas directive which must be in place by August. Will the Bill be published in this session and, if so, precisely when?

The Taoiseach

It will be published next month.

Mr. M. Higgins

I am grateful to you, a Cheann Comhairle, for having allowed us to discuss the sell-off of the public asset known as the transmission system, on the Adjournment last night. The Minister of State stated—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot revisit that matter which was discussed on the Adjournment a few hours ago.

Mr. M. Higgins

It concerns promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

If it is about promised legislation, the Deputy should put the question.

Mr. M. Higgins

It is.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot, however, revisit matters that were discussed just a few hours ago.

Mr. M. Higgins

I will make it very clear. Will the Taoiseach say what is the status of the Broadcasting Bill that is currently before a committee of this House? Is it the Taoiseach's, or his Minister's, intention to withdraw the legislation seeing that it has been fundamentally changed by an announcement made outside the House by the Minister? The Minister of State stated last night that it would be inappropriate to comment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. He should not attempt to answer the question.

Mrs. Owen

The Minister made the statement while boarding an aeroplane.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy allow his question about the promised legislation to be answered?

Mr. M. Higgins

I want the Taoiseach to be able to answer the question fully and state the position accurately, and not have two versions – one from the Minister of State last night and the other from the Minister on her way to Hollywood.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has asked the question, will he now allow it to be answered? The Deputy is being grossly disorderly.

Mr. M. Higgins

What is the status of the Broadcasting Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat and allow the question to be answered. I am calling the next speaker, Deputy Jim Higgins.

Mr. M. Higgins

What is the status of the Broadcasting Bill? That is my question to the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should leave it at that.

Mr. M. Higgins

I can assure you, I will not.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach on the status of the Broadcasting Bill.

The Taoiseach

As I said yesterday, the Broadcasting Bill is before a committee of the House.

Mr. M. Higgins

Which Broadcasting Bill is before the House? The one that is selling off a public asset and making the national broadcaster a tenant that will have to pay for it? It is a disgrace but, of course, it could be expected from the firm that gave us the Irish Press debacle.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. He is being disorderly.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): On legislation, yesterday the former independent refugee appeals commissioner, Mr. Peter Finlay, told a joint committee of the Oireachtas that the Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Bill—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the proceedings of a joint committee of the Oireachtas until it reports.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): No. It is about legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask his question but there cannot be a discussion on such proceedings.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): I appreciate that. He said the Bill was flawed, discriminatory, unconstitutional and would constitute bad law.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is referring to a discussion.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): In view of those very serious comments and their implications, will the Taoiseach agree to have the matter referred for independent legal advice, rather than adopting an unconstitutional Bill which will be stuck down by the Council of State?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. Kenny

On the subject of the Broadcasting Bill which was raised by Deputy Michael D. Higgins, the Committee on Heritage and the Irish Language has spent six months—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a question on promised legislation.

Mr. Kenny

Let me finish, a Cheann Comhairle. The committee has spent six months dealing with this Bill and has taken evidence from 20 organisations. It is a disgraceful insult to the House—

An Ceann Comhairle

Statements are not in order on the Order of Business. I am calling Deputy Trevor Sargent. The matter was discussed on the Adjournment a few hours ago.

Mr. Kenny

I want to ask a question on legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. I have ruled on that matter and we cannot revisit it. We are dealing with the Order of Business. If the Deputy has a question he should resume his seat and he will be called. I have called Deputy Trevor Sargent.

Mr. Kenny

It is a very simple question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Trevor Sargent. The Deputy should resume his seat and he will be called.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should be orderly and resume his seat.

Mr. Sargent

Tá reachtaíocht geallta os mo chomhair amach, the National Parks and Historic Properties Bill. It seems to have been felled, as it does not appear on the list. Is it still in the Department or is it imprisoned like the Glen of the Downs protestors, an innocent victim of the Department's neglect?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is continuing with a statement which is quite disorderly.

Mr. Sargent

Is the Bill promised or is it not?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. I call Deputy Finucane.

Mr. Sargent

I am asking an orderly question on promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy asked is it promised or not promised. That is not a question that is relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

On promised legislation—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. I have asked him to resume his seat as we must have an orderly Order of Business. I have called Deputy Finucane.

Mr. Gormley

We will not resume our seats.

Mr. Sargent

Why?

An Ceann Comhairle

Because the Chair says so. The Deputy must resume his seat. If he is in order he will be called in due course.

Mr. Gormley

The Deputy's question is in order.

Mr. Sargent

How else am I to be in order?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Gormley

Will the Taoiseach answer? The Deputy is asking an orderly question.

Mr. Sargent

My question is entirely in order.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy does not resume his seat and continues to be disorderly he will have to leave the House. I call Deputy Finucane.

Mr. Sargent

On promised legislation —

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy continues to be totally out of order.

Mr. Gormley

He is not out of order and the Chair knows that.

An Ceann Comhairle

If he does not resume his seat I will have to name him.

Mr. Sargent

On promised legislation—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will not resume his seat so I will have to name him.

Mr. Gormley

I have never seen anything like this.