Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 2000

Vol. 515 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 18, Motion re Freedom of Information Act, 1997, Regulations – Draft; No. 41, Social Welfare Bill, 2000 – Second Stage (resumed); No. 4, National Minimum Wage Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; No. 42, Human Rights Commission Bill, 1999 – Second Stage (resumed) to be taken not later than upon the conclusion of Private Members' business and the order shall not resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; No. 18 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 41, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m.; and the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 42, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. Private Members' business shall be No. 96, Motion re White Paper on the Defence Forces (resumed).

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 18 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 41 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 42 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Would the Taoiseach be willing to consider returning the Education (Welfare) Bill to this House to discuss it on Second Stage in principle given that there is evidence now of large-scale poaching of students between the ages of 16 and 18 from second level schools? They are being taken into employments and they are unable to work in school because of the work they are doing outside school hours. Many are being asked to leave school to take up employment which will result in an untrained workforce as a result of the overheating of our economy. This is a matter of great concern. In the long-term, our current prosperity could be doing damage to the trained ability of our young people because they are being given an incentive to leave school too early. Will the Taoiseach examine this matter in the context of the Education (Welfare) Bill which is currently before the House?

The Taoiseach

The legislation is at Committee Stage. I am sure Deputy Bruton would accept that this is not a legislative matter but it is a matter of concern. I spoke on this issue at the Opportunities 2000 launch a few weeks ago. There is no doubt that this is happening. People are moving out of the education system into part-time jobs, and then those part-time jobs become full-time jobs. That is happening to a fairly large extent. The Minister for Education and Science is in a round of discussions with IBEC and is due to meet that body again shortly on this issue to see what we can do with the employers to discourage this practice. I will ask the Minister to keep the Deputy informed about what happens in those discussions.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Taoiseach indicate whether the Government and the British Government have any plans, nearly three weeks after the suspension of the institutions in Northern Ireland, to convene a meeting of all of the parties to the Good Friday Agreement as requested by both the SDLP and the Alliance Party, to name but two? We are now facing, the week after next, the St. Patrick's Day celebrations across the world during which the issue of Northern Ireland will be discussed. It is absolutely essential that the sense of drift which is now manifest is halted and that some initiative of a concrete nature is taken by the two Governments. Will the Government indicate clearly the action it proposes to take to address this very serious issue?

The Taoiseach

It is a very serious issue. A number of meetings are being held. The British Prime Minister will meet some of the party leaders today. The Minister for Foreign Affairs will also meet some of the parties today. We have a tentative plan to hold a number of meetings over the next fortnight. I would like to be able to tell the Deputy that the meetings are of a concrete nature but I cannot. However, there is contact.

We must try to get some level of support for an initiative before we get involved in a round table session. There have already been round table sessions between the Secretary of State, Mr. Mandelson, and the Minister, Deputy Cowen. We will arrange dates for further meetings but prior to that and before they can be of value we have to get a supportable and sustainable line of agreement with the parties. At this stage, people are still involved in recriminations which is a hopeless strategy and we are trying to move them away from it. After today and subject to the meetings that will take place in London and in Dublin, we will be able to outline what we will do next.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Taoiseach not agree that the characteristic of the process that led to the Good Friday Agreement was a series of inclusive talks? We do not have that process any more. If the British and Irish Governments are not able to agree a strategy, will the Government seriously consider reconvening the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation to enable all parties who wish to participate to do so, not to engage in recrimination but to engage in a more open and inclusive process that would unblock the current difficulties? We cannot allow this drift to continue through the St. Patrick's Day festivities.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach agree that recrimination is likely to continue as long as there is a perception among the parties that the two Governments, while willing to undertake many activities and full of goodwill, do not have an agreed plan on how to move forward? Will he agree that the urgent matter now is for the two Governments to agree on a strategy and to pursue it? The absence of an agreed strategy between the two Governments is creating the vacuum that is making space for the blame game.

The Taoiseach

The two Governments have a strategy. I was talking to the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, an hour ago and we have a clear strategy that we want the institutions up and running again, progress made on demilitarisation and progress on the arms issue—

Mr. Quinn

We all want that.

The Taoiseach

—which will put the arms beyond question or beyond use. The difficulty is that the parties at this stage, as is evident from our bilateral discussions with them, are not in a position to make a substantive move. However, there are meetings in London today with the Prime Minister, although it is not for me to say who he is meeting. The Minister, Deputy Cowen, is also meeting some of the parties – the main parties creating the obstacles – and we will see if any progress is made. We do not intend to allow a stalemate to develop without a series of meetings this side of St. Patrick's Day.

Mr. Quinn

Can I take it that, as of now, the Government is not prepared to convene a meeting of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is aware that the Government cannot do that on its own initiative. The parties must agree to it.

Mr. Quinn

The parties have asked for it.

The Taoiseach

I have discussed it with some of the parties. It might come to that point but there are some other ideas we must try first. If it is going nowhere, however, I will consider it.

Mr. Quinn

The parties in this House are agreeable, the SDLP, the Alliance Party and the Women's Coalition are agreeable and we know or presume that other parties are well disposed to it. There is a substantial measure of agreement about reconvening the forum.

Mr. J. Bruton

I support the idea of getting the relevant parties around the same table. However, it is important that General de Chastelain be there too, so the undertakings he was given or not given or which were withdrawn or offered can be put on the table and people can be asked questions about them. It is only by getting down to brass tacks and having General de Chastelain present that real progress will be made on this issue. We must be realistic. The problem is not goodwill but unwillingness to make a particular decision.

Mr. Sargent

I would welcome reconvening the forum as soon as possible to help the process. However, in its absence, can the Taoiseach confirm that there are many bilateral discussions taking place without media coverage? The lack of media coverage gives the appearance of inaction despite the quiet diplomacy that is going on. Will the Taoiseach reassure people that there are bilateral discussions even though we do not hear or read about them for obvious reasons?

The Taoiseach

Of course that type of contact is taking place. I do not wish to be too blunt about this, but in two separate weeks last year I spent about 100 hours each time having round table meetings which just kept going around the table. When I deem it useful to have a constructive meeting that is not full of recriminations and the blame game, I will be prepared to have it. However, I see no purpose in having a meeting for people to restate what I am listening to day in and day out. I already know it, and it is not necessary for anybody else to have to hear it.

Mr. Shatter

Will the Taoiseach acknowledge that the Government has failed to run our health services properly? Will he indicate whether the Government plans to introduce legislation to speed up the recruitment procedures for consultants?

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is out of order at this stage.

Mr. Shatter

Will the Taoiseach give the House a guarantee that in the year 2000 more than 120,000—

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already ruled that the matter is out of order. The Deputy should resume his seat. The matter is not in order.

Mr. Shatter

The Government is neglecting the health service. It is a disgrace.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Michael Higgins.

Mr. M. Higgins

Maidir le reachtaíocht atá geallta, an bhfuil ceannteidil Bhille na Gaeilge os comhair an Rialtais fós?

The Taoiseach

Bille na Gaeilge is due in the autumn.

Mr. Connaughton

Will the Taoiseach explain why the Western Development Commission cannot carry out its mandate?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is this a question on promised legislation?

Mr. J. Bruton

Promised money.

Mr. Connaughton

It relates to legislation passed by the House but the Western Development Commission is not doing anything because the Government cannot get the go ahead to provide the money.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on that matter.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is referring to an issue relating to finance which the Minister of State is endeavouring to resolve with the European Commission. It is a hold up on finance from Europe which has gone on for a considerable time. It has created frustration and we want to resolve it as soon as possible. The Commission has come back to us on several occasions seeking additional information and we have again complied with its latest additional information request.

Ms McManus

Will the Taoiseach fast track the nurses Bill in view of the fact that there is a deep ening crisis? Despite the fact that the Government has spent huge amounts of money—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make a statement on the Bill.

Ms McManus

—the problem is getting worse.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has put a question about legislation. Let us hear the reply.

Ms McManus

I am not trying to waste time, I am just setting the context.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not in order.

Ms McManus

If I could just complete my point—

An Ceann Comhairle

It should be questions on the Order of Business.

Ms McManus

One of the key factors is the problem with the supply of nurses.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business is not the place to make points.

Ms McManus

I am trying to ensure that the Taoiseach is aware, because he has made no statement about it and does not seem aware of the extent of the crisis.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should do that by way of parliamentary questions.

Mrs. Owen

She does not get answers and that is the problem.

Ms McManus

Perhaps he will reply in the context of the nurses Bill. Can that Bill be fast tracked?

An Ceann Comhairle

On the nurses Bill, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

The nurses Bill will be ready soon but the Deputy really wants me to point out that more than 50,000 more people were treated last year than in the previous year.

Mrs. Owen

What about the people who were not treated?

The Taoiseach

The waiting list policy has led to a 10% reduction. This year more than 50,000 people will also be treated.

Mr. Ring

The Taoiseach is losing touch. He should come to the Western Health Board area.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Allen.

Mr. Allen

Why have the promises the Taoiseach gave on 26 January and the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation gave regarding the placing of the details of a contract between the Government and Mr. J.P. McManus concerning a £50 million donation not been fulfilled?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Allen

A promise was given and all we have now in the Oireachtas Library is an undertaking on behalf—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is misusing the time on the Order of Business. I call Deputy Gilmore and Deputy Allen should resume his seat.

Mr. Allen

Surely promises should be fulfilled.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen should resume his seat. There are other ways he can pursue that matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

On that matter raised by Deputy Allen—

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Gilmore. I have not called the Deputy. I will give the Deputy the floor shortly.

Mr. J. Bruton

On that matter—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has called Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Gilmore

The Taoiseach told the House that the local government reform Bill will be published some time this session. This is the sixth different target which has been set for the publication of the Bill. Have all the heads of the Bill been approved by Government or are there matters of policy concerning the Bill which have yet to be decided by Government which are causing the delay in its publication?

The Taoiseach

This is an enormous Bill of more than 150 heads. They have all been cleared, the Bill is being drafted and it will be circulated this session.

Mr. J. Bruton

I apologise for being in conflict with the Ceann Comhairle a moment ago. I understand his position. Is the Taoiseach aware that the matter raised by Deputy Allen was the subject of discussion between the parties where the Opposition facilitated the Government in certain respects? It is important that any undertakings given in this matter should be fulfilled to the letter. If the material lodged in the Library is not adequate, as Deputy Allen has clearly indicated it is not, will the Taoiseach intervene to ensure that any further information is lodged that ought to be lodged?

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to comment?

The Taoiseach

It is the subject of a question today from Deputy Joe Higgins. As I understand it, the binding financial and legal commitments are laid before the House. If Deputy Allen needs further information, I will certainly make available to him the officials who have been dealing directly with this issue.

Mr. Allen

On a point of clarification—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot continue with a debate on this. There is no such thing as a point of clarification.

Mr. Allen

The document in the Library does not mention the donor. It is a letter of undertaking from a Swiss bank on behalf of an unknown and unidentified client. It could be anyone. Given the current situation regarding foreign accounts, would the Taoiseach be more specific in what he lays before the House in the Oireachtas Library?

The Taoiseach

A Swiss bank would not have given a commitment to give the State £50 million in such a categorical and unambiguous form if it were not aware who—

Mr. Allen

On whose behalf is it?

The Taoiseach

It is Mr. J.P. McManus.

Mr. Allen

That is not in the document.

The Taoiseach

The bank has given a binding legal commitment.

Mr. Allen

The bank does not identify him.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot pursue the matter further. I call Deputy Howlin on a different subject.

Mr. Howlin

Regarding the announcement yesterday by the Tánaiste that she intends to allow 200,000 non-nationals to work in the State, when will we see legislation to facilitate that and has it been approved by Government?

The Taoiseach

The Government has authorised the drafting of the heads of the work permits Bill. It is with the parliamentary draftsman and is due later this year. FÁS has been following that programme of action for some time and about 40,000 people are returning.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Given the devastating situation in Mozambique, will the Taoiseach tell the House if the Minister of State with responsibility for development aid asked for a meeting of development ministers and if that will take place? I would appreciate it if we could get a reply as it is a serious situation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter was raised yesterday. Does the Taoiseach wish to comment?

The Taoiseach

The Minister of State gave a long reply yesterday.

Mrs. Owen

Has she asked for a meeting?

The Taoiseach

I am sure she has followed up anything she said she would.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach was kind enough to reply yesterday to a question in respect of the Broadcasting Bill in which he referred to consultations, observations and proposals to be brought forward by the Minister. Will these include proposals for an income stream for—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot ask questions on what will be included in legislation, just the timing of the legislation.

Mr. Kenny

The public service broadcasting remit is important and should not continue to be sponsored by Jacob's biscuits and Cadbury's chocolates.

Mr. Quinn

Is the current edition of the White Paper on Defence a prelude to the final edition which will include the commitments entered into by the Minister for Defence and the representatives of the Defence Forces?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is the subject of Private Members' time.

Mr. Quinn

I know, but we cannot ask questions on Private Members' time, so we will not get a response.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a brief question or make a brief comment.

Mr. Quinn

Commitments highlighted by the Minister for Defence are not contained in this draft White Paper. Will the final printed form of the document include the specific commitments entered into last week?

The Taoiseach

The Government approved the publication of the White Paper yesterday, and certain matters were the subject of discussion between the Minister for Defence and the Chief of Staff which were covered in a note signed by the Minister on 24 February. They will be included, where relevant, in the final text of the White Paper which will be published in about three weeks' time. This is adverted to in the note and the Government decided to approve the strength of the Permanent Defence Forces of 10,500 plus the option of 2,250 recruits. If there is any confusion, the Government will implement the contents of the White Paper, the note of the agreement of last Thursday and the Government decision yesterday. They will all be fully implemented.

Mr. Quinn

When will the note be published?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter can be further pursued this evening.

Mr. Quinn

Will it be incorporated?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter can be pursued later.

The Taoiseach

Anything relevant from the note will be in the White Paper. Obviously there are administrative matters in the note. To avoid any confusion, the Minister informed me this morning that he is arranging to have a copy of the note of 24 February lodged in the Oireachtas Library.

Mr. Gormley

Given the traffic chaos in Dublin, will the Taoiseach speed up the introduction of the transport Bill?

The Taoiseach

I am sure the Minister will do that. He is more interested in speeding up the traffic, but he is also doing his best with the Bill.