John Bruton
Question:1 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to East Timor; the official engagements he undertook there; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6998/00]
Ceisteanna–Questions. - Official Engagements.
John Bruton
Question:2 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Australia; the official engagements he undertook there; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6999/00]
John Bruton
Question:3 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Irish troops serving in East Timor; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7286/00]
Ruairí Quinn
Question:4 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his recent visit to East Timor. [7808/00]
Ruairí Quinn
Question:5 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his recent meeting with Xanana Gusmao and José Ramos Horta during his recent visit to East Timor. [7809/00]
Ruairí Quinn
Question:6 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his discussions with the Prime Minister Mr. Howard and other political leaders during his recent visit to Australia. [7810/00]
Ruairí Quinn
Question:7 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his recent visit to Australia. [7811/00]
Ruairí Quinn
Question:8 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if he will clarify the comments he made during a visit to Sydney on Australia's policy for dealing with asylum seekers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7987/00]
Jim Higgins
Question:9 Mr. Higgins (Mayo) asked the Taoiseach if he will clarify his comments made on his recent visit to Australia regarding the issue of asylum seekers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8172/00]
John Bruton
Question:10 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his visit to the migrant resource centre at Campsie, Sydney, during his recent visit to Australia; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8174/00]
John Bruton
Question:11 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his visit to the Olympic stadium in Sydney during his recent visit to Australia; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8175/00]
John Bruton
Question:12 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Prime Minister of Australia, Mr. Howard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8177/00]
John Bruton
Question:13 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the communications he has received from the Irish representative of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (details supplied) regarding his comments in Australia on asylum seekers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8178/00]
Trevor Sargent
Question:14 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent trips to East Timor and Australia. [8223/00]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Question:15 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his visit to Australia. [8716/00]
Trevor Sargent
Question:16 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach to clarify his recent statements on asylum policy made during his visit to Australia. [8776/00]
Ruairí Quinn
Question:17 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the representations, if any, he has received from UNHCR or the Irish Refugee Council regarding his remarks on asylum seekers during his recent visit to Australia; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8836/00]
Ruairí Quinn
Question:18 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his visit to the migrant resource centre near Sydney during his recent trip to Australia; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8027/00]
Joe Higgins
Question:19 Mr. Higgins (Dublin West) asked the Taoiseach to report on his recent official visits abroad. [9150/00]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 19, inclusive, together.
I visited East Timor on Thursday, 9 March. I met Mr. Sergio de Mello, Special Representative of the UN Secretary General and head of the UN Transitional Administration in East Timor, UNTAET. I also met CNRT leaders, Mr. Xanana Gusmao and Mr. José Ramos Horta, as well as the deputy commander of the UN peacekeeping force, the local commander in the south-west border region where the Irish troops are based, and some of the Irish troops.
A recurring theme throughout my meetings in East Timor was concern at the security situation. In recent times, especially since the beginning of this month, there has been a marked increase in the number of armed incursions by pro-integration militias based in West Timor. UN peacekeeping troops have come under increasing attack from these elements. These attacks seem to be intended to undermine UNTAET and to intimidate the East Timorese people. All my interlocutors were in agreement that these operations are taking place with the complicity of local units of the Indonesian army in West Timor.
I subsequently wrote to President Wahid of Indonesia to express to him my concerns, and those of the Government, at the renewed attacks, and to convey the concerns of those to whom I had spoken in East Timor. I requested him to take urgent action to halt the incursions. I am satisfied as to the President's goodwill in relation to bringing about a reconciliation between the peoples of the region, and made my request to him in that context. I also raised the matter with US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, whom I met in Washington on St. Patrick's Day, and the matter was brought to the attention of our EU partners by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, at the meeting of the General Affairs Council on Monday 20 March. I hope the Indonesian Government will not waste any time in putting a stop to these incursions. In this context, recent Indonesian press reports indicate that the military, on the instructions of President Wahid, have already promised tightened security in the border region.
During my meeting with Mr. Xanana Gusmao and Mr. José Ramos Horta, they expressed their great appreciation for Ireland's support, both now and in the past. They paid tribute, in particular, to the work of the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Andrews. The House will recall that Ireland was one of a few countries visited by Mr. Gusmao last October, within a short time after his release from house arrest in Jakarta and before his return to East Timor. Both he and Mr. Horta were particularly pleased with my visit now, as it was the first visit at prime ministerial level from any country from outside the region to a free East Timor.
I visited the members of the Defence Forces serving with the UN peacekeeping force. These are stationed in the south-west of the territory, close to the border with West Timor, and they gave a first hand account of the militia incursions. They are doing an excellent job in difficult conditions. Both the local UN commander, Brigadier General Lewis, and the Deputy Force Commander, General Mike Smith, were highly complimentary about the Irish troops.
While I was in East Timor, I announced that the Irish Government has decided to open an aid office in Dili, to manage our programme of assistance and to support the East Timorese people to make a successful transition to full independence. This announcement was welcomed by everyone with whom I spoke in Dili.
During my visit, I was struck by the total devastation of the territory. This seems to have been done in a deliberate and orchestrated manner. I pay tribute to the efforts which the non-governmental organisations, including our own GOAL and Concern, are making to provide the people of East Timor with the basic necessities of life and to help them with the enormous task of reconstruction. I was pleased to be able to meet representatives of the Irish NGOs working in East Timor and Irish nationals working with the UN and other bodies.
During my visit to Australia, I met the Prime Minister Mr. John Howard. We discussed matters of mutual interest, including the ongoing response of the international community to the situation in East Timor, economic and cultural ties between Ireland and Australia, Australian relations with the EU and the status of the peace process in Northern Ireland.
I also had a brief meeting with the Governor General, Sir William Deane, and we exchanged views on relations between Ireland and Australia. I met the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Kim Beazley, and shadow Foreign Affairs Minister, Mr. Laurie Brereton. In the course of our discussions they expressed their support for and interest in the Northern Ireland peace process.
My visit also included meetings with the Premiers of the states of Victoria and New South Wales, Mr. Steve Bracks and Mr. Bob Carr, and with the Chief Minister and the Administrator of the Northern Territories, Mr. Denis Burke and Dr. Neil Conn. In all these meetings I was impressed, both by the level of awareness of Irish affairs and the continuing Australian interest in the maintenance and development of the traditional links, both cultural and economic, between Ireland and Australia. All those with whom I met appreciated the positive contribution which Irish people have made to Australian society.
In addition to these meetings, I had the opportunity to address and meet business leaders and community representatives at a range of functions. In Canberra, I attended a parliamentary dinner hosted by the Prime Minister, Mr. Howard. I took this opportunity to renew my thanks for the support given by Australia to the peace process. I also delivered an address – Prosperity and Fairness: An Irish vision for the 21st Century – at the National Press Club.
In Melbourne, I launched the Bord Fáilte travel trade manual for Australia and addressed the Australia-Ireland chamber of commerce and industry. In Sydney, I inaugurated the premises of the new Ireland House, which will accommodate the consulate, Enterprise Ireland and IDA representatives. I also addressed a large group of business leaders at a business breakfast hosted by the Lansdowne Club and, together with many representatives of the Irish community, I attended a peace mass at St. Mary's Cathedral.
Throughout the visit, I had the opportunity to view at first hand a number of Australian projects which are of interest in an Irish context. These included, as the first engagement in my programme, Kormilda College in Darwin, which is an exemplary school, not only as a model of racial integration and reconciliation, but also in the teaching of children with special needs, especially as regards literacy. In Melbourne, I visited an Irish welfare bureau, which is part-funded by the Irish Government and has a proud tradition over many years of assisting Irish people in Australia.
Finally, in Sydney, I visited a migrant resource centre in Campsie. I take the opportunity to clarify again that, contrary to what was said in the media here, I did not visit a detention centre. The regrettable confusion over this has now been cleared up, and I am happy to note that spokesmen for both the UNHCR and the Refugee Council have expressed themselves happy with the clarification they have received. What I visited was a migrant resource centre, which is devoted to settling and integrating refugees and immigrants. The centre is run by the Australian Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs and it provides newly arrived migrants with information on their rights and with support. It helps them to settle into their new communities and to participate in an equitable manner in society. It provides assistance in finding employment, including through the provision of language tuition and child care facilities. Interpretation and translation services are provided to help migrants with limited English language skills to gain access to social, medical and community services. I was most impressed with what I saw at the centre, particularly the close degree of co-ordination and co-operation between different agencies and the progressive approach towards settlement and integration. We all recognise that taking people in and sending them out into a new society without integration supports is a poor policy, and Deputies will agree that this type of facility is one from which we can learn in Ireland.
I visited the Olympic Stadium in Sydney in the company of the chief executive of the Irish Sports Council, Mr. John Treacy, and the Secretary General of my Department, Mr. Paddy Teahon, who will be the executive chair of Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Limited. It is a most impressive facility and I hope our athletes will distinguish themselves there in September. During my visit we were briefed on the planning and funding of the stadium project and on the facilities which have been put in place, both for the Olympics and for the continuing use of the stadium. In addition to my own briefing, further meetings took place at official level in the days following my visit.
Naturally, I also met many members of the Irish community in the four cities which I visited in Australia.
Would the Taoiseach still be of the opinion that the Australian immigration system is, as he said in Australia, the best in the world? Did he say, in reference to centres which are part of the Australian system, to a journalist from The Examiner newspaper that in part of some of the centres at least, there is no question of anybody getting away from the centres until all processes are gone through? Would the Taoiseach agree that the assumption one would make about a place from which there is no possibility of getting away would normally be that that is a place in which one is detained?
Interned.
Did the Taoiseach carefully consider the words he uttered to a journalist from The Examiner in Australia? Has he withdrawn them, in the sense that he followed those words with words of approval when he said “it is something you have to look at. You have to look very hard at the system”? He used those two sentences immediately after his reference to a centre—
Statement of fact.
—which in his words, there was no question of anyone getting away from until all the processes were gone through.
Much has been said about this. I do not intend entering into another argument about it. In a question here on 29 February Deputy Quinn sensibly suggested that the Australian authorities had long experience in managing immigration policy to address skill shortages in the domestic labour market, especially in the light of the multicultural programme in the area. I responded to that by saying I had included a number of matters related to that in my programme because I was interested to see how the integration system works. Deputy Bruton knows of my involvement in a number of projects in the city for the past four or five years with Vincentian groups and other groups who are trying to integrate asylum seekers and non-asylum seekers into life here.
Was the Taoiseach misquoted?
No. Let me explain, it will only take a few moments. I looked at integrating immigrants and promoting multiculturalism. I looked at a unit that had been recommended to me both by the ambassador in Australia and also by a Dublin couple who were involved in setting up the centre. They spent their holidays here last year visiting FÁS, the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs and the Eastern Health Board setting out the benefits of the centre. They wrote a long letter to me saying that I should go to the centre. For both those reasons I did. Migrants are legally allowed into Australia under two streams. I went to see these settlement services and the range of services there. During the presentation of that, it was made clear to me by Senator Patterson that she believed the success of their integration system was because of the way in which they filtered people through it which is, in our definition, through the reception centres. Some people somewhere apparently called them detention centres but—
So, the Taoiseach was not misquoted?
The Taoiseach cannot get away from it. They are detention centres.
I ask the Deputies to listen for a few minutes.
The Deputy does not want to hear it.
It is a simple question, "yes" or "no".
(Interruptions).
There should be an orderly question time.
When I was on the other side of the world, I was accused of having a photo opportunity at a facility run by the Australian correction service, that I was in a detention location, that the prison services is the sponsor of this service and I was accused of everything under the sun—
Was the Taoiseach misquoted?
—from being regressive, crude, primitive, whipping up public hysteria, pandering to extremists, being an extremist and deliberately playing on racist fears. Perhaps I can have an uninterrupted minute to explain what I was trying to do. That is not unreasonable.
The Taoiseach had 15 minutes.
The reports of the journalists in so far as the remarks were reported are all remarks I made. I have no quarrel with that, but I was not in a detention centre, I did not see the detention centre.
Was the Taoiseach misquoted?
To this day I do not know much about the Australian detention service system. I did not see it but Senator Patterson in her presentation made a point that the success of their integration system owes much to the fact that it is streamlined in the way that it helps people get there. I said that was interesting, that it was food for thought and that we would look at it. I said we would take the manuals and examine it. I did that and if anyone wants to look at the manuals, they are in my office.
Does the Taoiseach think he was misquoted?
The only person who misquoted me at home and who turned it around was, of course, Deputy Bruton.
(Interruptions).
Of course.
(Interruptions).
Order. We must have an orderly question time.
I corrected Deputy Bruton on his first point. I was not in a detention centre. Some of the Irish media followed him on that, not those travelling with me. They will know in future not to take their information from Fine Gael press statements because they know now that that was wrong.
The second point which Deputy Bruton has being making in the past few weeks even since I came back is that I was at a press conference with the Irish journalists when I met the Prime Minister and that I was at a national press function and I should have clarified remarks made at home. Unfortunately that would have been difficult because both those events took place before the first reports in the media here. The criticism from Opposition Members came afterwards. It would have been very hard for me to respond to comments made in the newspapers because when I gave those two interviews in Australia at those two events, one a press conference and the other a lunch, at 11 a.m. and 2 p.m. on 14 March, Australian time, which is midnight on 13 March and 3 a.m. here respectively. It was very difficult for me to clarify remarks reported in the morning papers several hours before the morning papers hit the streets which is the other point on which the Deputy is wrong.
This is a matter of personal importance because I have been involved in several centres with regard to integration. The highest number of asylum seekers in this country is in my own constituency. For the past four years I have worked with all of the centres doing my utmost to convince people to integrate into the communities. I have been involved in most of the schools which are well known and have been well publicised. I have been involved in this not only in my own constituency but also south of the Liffey. I have been involved in the housing projects.
Was the Taoiseach misquoted?
I led the Cabinet position on the reception centre which is in my own constituency where we bought a hotel. We have also rented two other locations and I have led those over the past few months so I am not prepared to let people aim remarks at me that are totally untrue.
And who do nothing about it themselves except try to create trouble.
Did the Taoiseach say to Katie Hannon of The Examiner that “there is no question of anyone getting away from the centres until all the processes are gone through. It is something you have to look at, we have to look very hard at the system”? Did the Taoiseach say that to Katie Hannon? Did he say to Geraldine Kennedy of The Irish Times“I am conscious that the Australian system is probably the best in the world for dealing with immigration”. Did he say that?
I have no argument with any of the comments reported in the newspapers, it is how one takes them and tries to twist them and how one tries to put remarks that were made in one place in an entirely different location.
Absolutely.
I was in an integration system looking at language training and children who were being cared for.
The answer is "yes".
I was looking at a multi-cultural centre.
This is waffle.
That is where I was. I was not in a detention centre. I know very little about Australian detention centres.
As the Taoiseach famously said when he was on the Opposition benches: "You are waffling".
No, I am not. While I admire the Deputy on some things, I did not admire the way in which, when I was on the other side of the world, he tried to undermine my position in an untruthful way. He knew where I was. He knew that I was not in a detention centre.
I knew what the Taoiseach said and I knew that it was inflammatory.
Why was Deputy Bruton's first statement all about where I was. Why did he mislead people here?
Was the Taoiseach misquoted?
The Taoiseach was misrepresented.
The Taoiseach has admitted that he spoke in approving terms of centres from which people could not get away, in a system of immigration control which he also described as the best in the world. That speaks for itself and no further comment is required.
Thanks. Hopefully, there will be no further comment from Deputy Bruton.
Deputy Bruton is deliberately trying to be misleading.
The way they deal with people in the integration service in Australia, of which I was speaking, is among of the best in the world. The service is considered as such and has been there for a long number of years. It is one we would find very hard to replicate. Any remarks I made about detention centres there was on the basis of the presentation made to me by Senator Patterson. The remarks were made, I said it was food for thought and that I would look at it. I said I would take the briefings and examine it and that we would make no decisions in this country. By no stretch of the imagination, even Deputy Bruton's, should he have been able to twist that into calling me all the things I was called by the Fine Gael Party.
"There is no question of getting away from the centres until all the processes are gone through"– those are the Taoiseach's own words.
We have spent 25 minutes on the first five questions. Obviously, the Taoiseach needs help on this occasion since he is getting so much of it from his backbenchers, which perhaps he could do without. Is it correct to assume from the reports in the media we read on this side of the globe that on a number of occasions he was explicitly asked by respected journalists, whom we know, whether he would rule out detention centres as part of a process of dealing with the problem of asylum seekers and immigration in this country? In response to that question put to him on more than one occasion, he declined to answer. Is that an accurate statement of what happened?
As soon as I became aware that this was an issue at home, my spokesman made a clear statement on 16 March that this was not an—
I am sorry. Maybe I did not put the question correctly.
I think you did.
Was the Taoiseach asked the question and did he decline to answer it?
I was asked the question—
The spokesperson was not contacted.
—at the press conference when I was with the Prime Minister of Australia, Mr. Howard, and I gave a very brief answer to the question. Remember that was prior to the newspapers coming out on 13 March. It was at 2.30 a.m. Irish time.
I am concerned with the content of the reply.
I just gave a short reply in that case.
What was the Taoiseach's reply to the question.
My reply to the question, which is on the record, was that these were matters that we would look at, and I admired the system there.
The Taoiseach did not rule out detention centres.
I did not give an answer about detention centres. I said these were matters we were looking at, that we were changing our system.
Did you decline to rule out detention centres?
Questions should be directed through the Chair.
I did not rule them out because at that stage I did not know what was involved in Australia's detention centres. If that question had been asked a few days later, when I realised there was a storm back home because the question mentioned detention centres, I would have known that, but I did not know and could not have known what was involved in Australia's detention centres. It was hours earlier when the matter hit the papers here on the morning of 14 March.
On another matter, when the Taoiseach looked at the devastation in East Timor, which has been sponsored to such an extent by Ireland, did he feel embarrassed by the fact that the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy O'Donnell, admitted that the Government will not meet its reduced target of 0.45% of GDP for overseas development aid? Now that we are a rich country, we are hopelessly behind in meeting the UN target of 0.7%. Bearing in mind the number of photo opportunities the Taoiseach has had in Third World countries, does he not feel slightly embarrassed, as the representative of a rich country, that we are not meeting the targets when we can afford it? Does that register with the Taoiseach?
I felt immensely proud in East Timor. Everybody there, including the political leaders, are extremely grateful for the involvement of this country and the fact that the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, from a country that is so far away, led the European case on this matter. He travelled twice to East Timor when it was most in need. He was there the week before the previous regime collapsed. We are opening an office in Dili and have already put in a substantial amount of resources. A further £2 million is being considered for the overseas development aid programme. On two other occasions an official of the Department of Foreign Affairs has been in East Timor concentrating on how the aid programme is working. I met representatives of the NGOs there who are extremely happy with the performance of the Department of Foreign Affairs and with the overseas development aid programme. My remarks about the ODA programme are on the record and we must continue to work on that. This country can be immensely proud of what we are doing through charitable and governmental organisations and through our UN peacekeeping force. This is also the case for what individuals do, whether religious or, in the case of East Timor, NGOs. Anyone would feel immensely proud of their role.
Will the Taoiseach agree we are doing less than was promised even though we have far more money with which to do it? All the organisations to which the Taoiseach just referred are looking for extra resources. The Taoiseach could write a cheque for them in the morning. The Minister for Finance has written off £50 million for the horse racing industry. Did the Taoiseach not feel a little embarrassment on behalf of all those organisations which are doing so much in that we could give so much more so easily and effortlessly?
As I have already stated, it is extraordinary that a small country like this can play such a key role in a country like East Timor—
We are now a rich country.
—and that we are putting money in. The immediate case is not the availability of money, it is to set up programmes and fund them, not only in Dili but elsewhere.
That is right. It is not just a question of money.
The Irish NGOs have moved into the rural parts of East Timor, on the border with West Timor, and are providing education, midwifery and medical services in these very primitive areas. Today, those areas look like Ireland did 100 years ago, as depicted in old photographs. An extraordinary input has been made by Irish people and of course they need resources. The assessment of the Department of Foreign Affairs was to set up an office in Dili to fund the NGOs, and that should be done.
(Dublin West): This is the first opportunity the Dáil has had to question the Taoiseach since his Australian visit. As an experienced politician, does the Taoiseach accept that people here were entirely justified in drawing certain conclusions from his silence – silence can be token consent – when he was asked to clarify his view on the immigration policy and detention centres in particular? It is rather pathetic. Taking into account that the Australian Prime Minister, Mr. Howard, was present on one occasion, the implication was that the Taoiseach could not disagree with aspects of Australia's immigration policy. Presumably if the Taoiseach was standing beside Mr. Milosevic he would not mince his words on ethnic cleansing.
That is ridiculous.
Or Stalin.
(Dublin West): Certainly.
Or Saddam Hussein.
(Dublin West): Does the Taoiseach accept that his words could have been seen as grist to the mill for a backward minority in this country, appealing to a racist minority for votes in a very cynical way? Did the Taoiseach raise with the Australian Government the recompense it is making to East Timor in view of the fact that that state colluded with the Indonesian regime for 25 years in the occupation of the country and in the repression of the East Timorese people in order to benefit from the massive oil bonanza in East Timor?
The Deputy is making a statement rather than asking a question.
The answer to the first part of the Deputy's question is no. That is not a fair assessment of those matters. Regarding the second part of the Deputy's question, the Australian Government and Opposition have been very conscious of their country's relationship with East Timor for many years. They are doing all they can and that is why they made the decision to lead and go in very quickly to alleviate the plight of East Timor, though it was not easy for them. That was a change from a position they have held for a long time, but they did it. Whatever about the past, they made a brave decision when it was most needed and they will now continue as they plan to work on the economic regeneration and rehabilitation of East Timor, which is badly needed.
The devastation in East Timor was worse than what I saw last year in Kosovo, though the latter was shelled. The difference was that every building was destroyed in Dili and into the countryside. East Timor will not be able to pick itself up with limited resources. It is a beautiful place but it is not developed because of the years of hardship it has endured and the pressure from Indonesia. I hope Australia will now be a friend to East Timor and will assist it in developing. There are important mineral reserves close by which could be of enormous assistance to the East Timorese, but that will only happen if Australia works with them. Already Darwin is becoming the centre of activity for much of the redevelopment of Dili and East Timor generally, whatever about the difficulties of the past. I do not think Australia will run away from those difficulties.
(Dublin West): The Taoiseach knows that oil deals have been signed—
I know and this was acknowledged by their political people but they are trying to regenerate the area, which will not be easy.
When the Taoiseach spoke about his world tour he mentioned meeting the Prime Minister of Australia, Mr. Howard. However, he did not say whether he intended doing anything about the Australian-Irish Welfare Bureau in Australia. Many elderly Irishmen depend on that body; they have no resources and do not qualify for social welfare. The Taoiseach said nothing about the Australia Ireland fund. The Minister for Foreign Affairs told us he was totally against the renewal of funding by Aus tralia for that fund as we had done so well with the Celtic tiger.
The Taoiseach is well aware of the plight of Irish farmers. Did he say anything about the new round of GATT talks? Did he say anything about the scurrilous campaign Australia is conducting in the Middle East while selling its beef by complaining that our beef is full of disease? Did he raise those matters? He said nothing about them in his reply, which was totally unsatisfactory.
It might be better for the Deputy to put down separate questions on these matters.
I will put down extra questions. I will not be shy about putting them down.
The Deputy should not get excited. It is bad for him. I mentioned the Australian-Irish Welfare Bureau in my reply.
It is a disgrace.
It has a fine premises which has just been renovated—
Fine people.
—with help from here. Regarding the Australia Ireland fund, Australia gives money to the peace process; we do not give them money.
They are withdrawing their money.
Regarding beef, few Australian politicians were not anxious to raise the matter with us. They have strong views on what should happen in the next round of talks, on the Common Agricultural Policy and on the subsidies. Wherever that arose I of course defended our position.
When the Taoiseach was in the United States, did he have an opportunity to discuss the general failure of the international community to deliver aid to East Timor? Did he bring that up?
When Mr. de Mello made his presentation he said they were happy with what the donor organisations have committed themselves to until December, which is $55 million. They are concerned that administration of this funding moves quickly and that the money is provided. They believe the resources are adequate but that donor countries should pay up and move those resources in quickly. We spoke to Madeleine Albright about the issue and there is a commitment on everyone's part to try to move the funds. The UN is strongly involved and the international community is anxious to see the money spent, even if not many countries from this side of the world are involved.
Is the Taoiseach aware that the Indonesian State is an archipelago of separate nationalities and linguistic groups? Other regions there apart from East Timor are seeking their independence and the current Indonesian Government, which is democratically elected, is facing a difficult task holding its country together. As he was visiting a State which had been considered by Indonesia part of their sovereign territory until recently, did the Taoiseach consider it might have been appropriate and tactful not just to have sent a letter to the Indonesian authorities but to have visited Jakarta himself?
(Dublin West): They are such sensitive souls.
It would have been nothing on his world tour.
It would have shown that he wishes to pursue the rights of the East Timorese, but also that he understands the difficulties a country the size of Indonesia has in maintaining national unity in its country, something his party is concerned about in another context.
As I said, we contacted Mr. Wahid—
Sent him a letter.
—it was impossible for me. I went around the world in 12 days; it used to take 80.
Jules Verne learned more in 80 days than the Taoiseach did in 12.
I learned a lot.
(Interruptions).
Mr. Wahid is considered by everyone to be a fine person. Despite his disabilities he is doing his utmost and he had been in Dili just before I arrived. That was a considerable risk for him and for Xanana Gusmao to take in an effort to bring in a new era after the difficulties of the past. Our letter expressed our understanding of their difficulties. Part of the problem is the matter Deputy Bruton mentioned; the militia are part of the military but are not totally under the control of Jakarta and that is what Mr. Wahid is trying to deal with. That is causing difficulties in the region and I hope some progress has been made.
Does the Taoiseach agree that largely due to the activity of Tom Hyland and others during several Administrations and notwithstanding the extraordinary distance between the two countries, a bond of solidarity has grown between the Irish and East Timorese peoples? If he accepts that, first, does he accept that East Timor will, sooner rather than later, become an independent state and a member of the United Nations and that Ireland should be to the fore of advocating that? Second, does he accept that we should include the Republic of East Timor as one of our preferred states for bilateral aid? Third, does he accept that we should elevate our office there sooner rather than later to embassy status? Fourth, does he accept that we should have a comprehensive and developed long-term – by which I mean a five to ten year – programme of support and solidarity with the East Timorese? Such a programme would fulfil the logic of the Taoiseach's visit to that soon to be declared state and the position adopted by my colleague and former leader, Deputy Spring, when he was Minister for Foreign Affairs, which was pursued very generously by Deputy Andrews, and would give to the East Timorese on the one hand and the Irish people on the other an expectation that our relationship should be consolidated and developed. Will the Government commit itself to that type of programme on foot of this opportunity or will the Taoiseach return to the House and comprehensively map out the intended relationship between the Republic of Ireland and the soon to be declared Republic of East Timor?
All those matters should be examined and would require considerable thought. I have no difficulty with them.
The Taoiseach would receive support from this side of the House.
The staffing and other arrangements for the new office to be established in Dili are also being examined. Initially, that office will oversee the assistance programme. Ireland has a special relationship with East Timor. When I met representatives of NGOs such as Concern, GOAL and others, more than 30 people turned up for the meeting. All of them were born in Ireland but work with various international organisations in East Timor. There is a great commitment to the country.
That commitment is short-term. I am talking about a five to ten year programme.
I accept that but the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy O'Donnell, has already put in place an initial aid programme from the larger aid programme for designated countries. I understand that a sum of £2 million is being provided through that.
Is East Timor now officially one of the bilateral countries?
As far as I know, the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Andrews, arranged that although it may only relate to the short-term. I will raise these issues with the Department of Foreign Affairs. A special relationship does exist, one which is recognised as such by Australia, Indonesia and the UN.
Do either the Taoiseach or the Minister for Foreign Affairs plan to visit Indonesia in order that that country could also be the subject of good bilateral relations with Ireland?
If I recall correctly, the former Minister for Foreign Affairs visited Jakarta on his second visit to East Timor. I am open to correction on that.
That was when East Timor was a problem, but will relationships be established with the country now?
Relationships will certainly be established with Mr. Wahid. Nobody I met seemed to have a bad word to say about him.
(Dublin West): In regard to his visit to East Timor and the other countries, will the Taoiseach ensure that any future Government policy will enunciate, as its first principle, the right of nations to self-determination and freedom from oppression? Does the Taoiseach acknowledge that there are separate nationalities in Aceh, for example, which are still being hugely oppressed by Indonesia, the same regime to which Deputy Bruton wants us to be so sensitive? Does he agree that in our policy regarding that part of the world, the neo-imperialist doctrine enunciated by Deputy Bruton to the effect that we should be considerate to the Indonesian regime, which is repressing the nationality of Aceh having crushed the people of East Timor for 25 years, should not have any part in any policy drawn up by this State?
The Deputy's comments are closer to a statement than a question.
What, in Deputy Higgins's view, is the smallest unit which should have self-determination? Dublin-West perhaps.
I want to return to the issue of the migrant resource centre, which may be polite terminology for "detention centre". In view of the comments he made in Australia and the media attention which they received here, why did the Taoiseach not avail of the excellent opportunity afforded by the press conference to publicly state his ideas and attitudes on immigration centres? What are the Taoiseach's intentions in regard to accommodating the 28,500 workers who are due to come into this country to fill job vacancies?
That is a separate question.
How many people were accom modated in the migrant resource centre which the Taoiseach visited in Australia and what is the average detention period?
The Taoiseach did not visit a detention centre.
The Taoiseach was in Government with his former colleague, Mr. Ray Burke, when people were last interned without trial in Limerick prison, having been picked up in Shannon.
Deputy Carey should desist from interrupting and behave in an orderly manner.
I seem to be wasting my time trying to explain matters to Deputy Finucane. I visited a centre for people who were seeking to be integrated, by way of training, education, IT skills, child care skills and so on, into the Australian community. All these people were asylum seekers and had been accepted into the system. Nobody was detained anywhere. People were coming and going to the centres on a 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. basis, as would happen here in regard to FÁS training centres.
The migrant resource centre incorporated the Australian Centre for Languages, one of Sydney's quality education and training organisations which is committed to facilitating cross-cultural international communications within communities and workplaces. In recent years, the adult migrant English programme has been the largest federally-funded English programme in the world for migrants and refugees. The programme provides language, literacy, numeracy, labour market and workforce training. It also provides a job network service which is designed to provide intensive assistance to people from non-English speaking backgrounds who are long-term unemployed. Services are provided for approximately 30 countries. The migrant resource centre provides child care and counselling services. Last year it was invited by the Australian department of immigration and multi-culturalism to plan the delivery of English and education services.
I stated earlier that when I gave a press conference with the Australian Prime Minister—
I was referring to the press conference here which was attended by the Tánaiste and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
I clearly outlined what happened in Australia during the press conference I gave here. While I genuinely visited the centre to see how the integration service operated, Fine Gael Party spin-doctors managed to falsify that.
(Interruptions).
The time for Taoiseach's questions has concluded.