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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Mar 2000

Vol. 517 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Broadcasting Policy: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Kenny on Tuesday, 28 March 2000:
That Dáil Éireann:
–condemns the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands on her handling of the Broadcasting Bill, 1999, and deplores the total uncertainty she has created among the media and communications sectors, with particular reference to management and workers at RTE and TG4, who were not informed of any intention on her part to alter the proposed and accepted format of transmission manage ment and control through the Company Digico;
–further deplores:
–the lack of clarity in regard to income streams for RTE and TG4;
–the omission of digital radio from the Broadcasting Bill, 1999;
–her consistent avoidance of the issue of authorising the indexation of licence fees approved by the previous Government and non-action in the matter of considering a licence fee increase;
–her refusal to clarify her position to Dáil Éireann since her announcement of her intention to alter the Digico concept;
–her unwillingness to clarify her position to the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis on the same subject, and
–her inability to provide an alternative model at her meeting with RTE;
–resolves that a substantial public shareholding be retained in the transmission system with appropriate guarantees;
–approves indexation of the licence fee authorised by the previous government; and in relation to the Broadcasting Bill, 1999, rescinds the Order of Dáil Éireann referring the Bill to the Select Committee on Heritage and the Irish Language and hereby resolves that the Bill be withdrawn.".
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"welcomes the Government's decision to arrange for the establishment of a Digital Terrestrial Television platform;
recognises the complexities involved in establishing the platform;
compliments the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands on her efforts to date to devise an appropriate structure, which takes the position of all interested parties into account, for progressing the matter both at an operational level and through the provisions of the Broadcasting Bill, 1999; and welcomes her decision to appoint a facilitator to assist the process.".
–(Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands).

For the purpose of being positive in this debate, may I reply to an impression that might have been created in the Minister's contribution? I will do so without delay. When I was Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht with responsibility for broadcasting, I produced a Green Paper on Broadcasting – broadcasting in the future tense – which set out 50 questions I felt our policy would have to answer before we could introduce legislation. I later produced the heads of the legislation as approved by Government, and these were published in the document entitled Fócas Geal – Clear Focus. In that document there is a clear indication of that on which I had approval from Government. The changes that would have been made would have been of a constitutional kind or in response to representations made after the publication of the heads of legislation. It dealt with, for example, the transition from digital and it advised strongly in favour of the establishment of the Broadcasting Commission which would come into existence to take control of transmission, thereby satisfying all the European arguments about competition and fairness and, in turn, assuring fairness to any clients using the transmission system.

The document also referred to the need to define public service broadcasting in a new way, a point to which I will return. Page 49, No. 5 of the English version of the document which was published, as was the Green Paper, dhá theangach, in Irish and in English, states: ". . . to arrange for the provision and maintenance of a broadcast transmission system, or systems, commensurate with the development of relevant technologies".

I hope what I have to say this evening will be positive but it will indicate the crisis we are now facing. I said last night, and I repeat now, that it is impossible to take a decision in relation to transmission or in relation to the division of transmission from multiplex management without it having implications for public service broadcasting. If I were in the Minister's position now I would ask myself the question: how can we ensure, as there seems to be a consensus in the House, that there will be programmes that will reflect our own cultural identity, they will be sufficiently broadly based and will be of a nature that we will be able to see ourselves in them? Perhaps it is a modern version of the famous description of broadcasting on the other island as a nation talking to itself.

What is happening now will make that very difficult because if the Minister wants to revise broadcasting and make changes in the legislation already introduced, she should direct her attention to the fact that she needs to make public service broadcasting safe, even before she commercialises the transmission of multiplex management systems. I will give an example of the reason for that, and it is drawn from international experience in relation to where these changes have taken place.

The nature of a television product or a programme is that it is a joint consumed object, by which I mean it is consumed not only where it is made but by every country to which the programme is sold. The United States, for example, which makes 75% of all programmes in English, has the advantage of having a very large English speaking market, the second language spoken in the world. It has a massive market, therefore, it can have initial high production costs and it has very low incremental costs. With that capacity, one can invest in a high grade production with high grade production values and can afford to flog it across the world at very little incremental cost. That explains the reason there is such a complete deluge of such programmes across the television viewing spectrum.

How can we make public service broadcasting safe in such an environment? We can never make it safe but there should be a massive investment in programming and the definition in the legislation should be that the public service broadcaster, the national broadcaster, is principally a programme maker. If we can do that, it would be replied to immediately by international market forces which are putting a new spin on the word "localisation" by which they mean taking a product that is produced, say, in a large market like the United States and allowing a kind of local packet to give it locale, in the same way as McDonalds allow their restaurants to be localised. It is an abuse of the word "localised" but it is an inevitable extension of the "McDonaldisation" of the world.

I come now to my net political point. It is important that the Minister explains what she means when she says that she will defend public service broadcasting. She can best do so by ensuring programme making capacity. She will have to fund it, but how will she do that? In my last proposals to Government for an increase in the licence fee I indexed that rise and it would be more today than the net deficit in RTE. That was never revoked by Cabinet decision but the Minister said she disagrees with it and she will not implement it. That indexation would be worth what the deficit is today, but I want to move on from that.

In the likelihood of there being no indexation and no rise in the licence fee, RTE then has to turn to whatever assets it has available to it. Last night I posed questions which I will not repeat because of time constraints. I presume the Minister, when replying to the debate, will give us the history of the transmission system and the legality that governs frequencies, both in international and national law. The Minister cannot sell or instruct to sell that which she does not own. This is all about scarce frequency management. The pressure of the "McDonaldisation" of broadcasting is to suggest that we will have an open season once we have abolished regulation and scarcity in frequencies.

There is another question I have not time to go into but it indicates the hand of those who are interested in multiplex management purchase, that is, are they going for digitalisation to improve picture quality, for example, such as high definition television? Will they improve the image? That is very interesting. The telephone companies did not go for improving the quality of what one hears on a telephone. They went for more and more people, with reduced quality, listening to mobile telephones. In exactly the same way this issue is about acquiring more space to lash out more product, and all this is about programming.

The Minister also promised in her legislation that she would deal with the issue of cross-ownership. In my legislation, in a Private Members' Bill, I proposed to deal with Article 3A of the Amsterdam Treaty in relation to sporting rights. My amendment to the Competition Act put a limit on cross-ownership. There is nothing in the Broadcasting Bill which will deal with the issue of cross-ownership, and there is nothing to stop those with a dominant position or those who are abusing a dominant position in one medium straying into another.

What does all this tell us? It tells us something about my own departure from the Department where, rather vindictively, the Taoiseach and the Government decided to delete the word "culture" from the title of the Department – it was the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. With the disappearance of the word "culture" came an insistence on the "commodification" of everything, and the distinction between my appointments and my attitudes and policies in the Department and that of my successors was the arrival of commercial thinking, solely unmitigated.

We must accept that broadcasting is a cultural matter not amenable to sole regulation by market principles. We require a Minister with responsibility for broadcasting to be able to tell the colleague who is handling technical infrastructure that matters technical are matters technical, but matters about national identity and broadcasting—

Deputy Higgins, your ten minutes has concluded.

It is important that the Minister also answers another question. If she decides to leave aside cultural arguments and to, as she put it in a television interview, sell the transmission system to the highest bidder, as the Minister was reported as saying – she has had an opportunity to check it – has the Minister in the interest of fair competition, satisfied herself that the licence granted by her colleague, which neatly allows her a return line to a telecommunications company, will not be an advantage in the tendering or bidding process? Is it not all, in the end, a surrender to her colleague in telecommunications in a small way and to the market in a large way? The losers will be those who want broadcasting diversity in the future.

I wish to share my time with the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, the Minister of State, Deputy Ryan, and Deputy Michael Kitt.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am delighted to speak in support of the amendment to the motion. It is a great pity that Deputy Higgins, in an otherwise excellent contribution, left hanging in the air last night, a suggestion or insinuation that this side of the House is less than committed to the public service broadcasting ethos. It was extremely disingenuous of him to imply that previous Ministers with responsibility for communications had another agenda. This side of the House and the Minister are as committed to public service broadcasting as anybody else.

That is for them to demonstrate.

We are moving towards an era where digital broadcasting will fast become the norm throughout Europe. The advent of digital broadcasting opens up exciting new possibilities for the number, range and diversity of services that may be accessed via the traditional television broadcasting platforms. Convergence in broadcasting, information and communication technologies is already impacting on many aspects of our society. As new and additional services come on stream, access to digital television will increasingly influence the ability of the citizen to participate in the information society. The Government remains committed to the objective that all society should have access to the opportunities afforded by digital broadcasting and reaffirms its commitment to the introduction of digital terrestrial television in Ireland as a practical step towards the realisation of this objective.

Digital television is perhaps the fastest growing sector of the European media and entertainment market. As almost every household in Ireland has a television, it is predicted that the advent of digital television will result in considerable market opportunities for the development of interactive television and e-commerce services. While not favouring any one delivery platform, the development of a digital terrestrial television platform will represent an important strategic step in the evolution of a comprehensive range of digital broadcasting delivery systems in Ireland. It is likely that the digital terrestrial television platform will be the only digital platform that will provide universal access to the national free to air services. It is to be expected that this platform will also carry the UK terrestrial services and will, therefore, contribute to competition between the different delivery platforms.

I am somewhat disappointed that the tone of much of the recent media speculation in relation to the introduction of digital terrestrial television in Ireland has been so negative. If we consider the facts, there is justification for being upbeat. Digital terrestrial television is a new technology and we are to the fore amongst our European partners in the development and adoption of this technology. Ireland has a record of which we should be proud in the development and adoption of new technologies. This has not occurred by accident but as a result of the consistent and ongoing commitment of successive Governments of all parties to develop the information technology sector. As a consequence, Ireland is now well positioned to become a global leader in the e-commerce market.

I am not suggesting we should be complacent in how we advance the process to introduce digital terrestrial television in Ireland. However, our track record in developing and adopting new technologies speaks for itself. When one considers the commitment of the Government to the establishment of the digital terrestrial platform and the investment of time and effort by the Minister and the various interested parties in exploring and pursuing the best way forward, there is good reason for optimism that this project will move forward in a positive and successful fashion.

Putting in place a framework to facilitate the establishment of a digital terrestrial television entity and the introduction of digital terrestrial television to Ireland is a significant and complex task. Considerable progress has already been made in advancing the critical elements of that framework. The Broadcasting Bill, which will provide, inter alia, the legislative framework for the establishment of the digital terrestrial television entity and the introduction of digital terrestrial television, has passed Second Stage in this House. The office of the Director of Telecommunications has published a consultation paper on the licensing of digital terrestrial television. Much of the work to prepare an information memorandum to be issued to potential investors in the digital terrestrial television platform has been completed.

The development of a satisfactory transaction structure to bring the digital terrestrial television entity into being is one element of the necessary framework to facilitate the introduction of digital terrestrial television in Ireland. The Minister has placed on record that the development of a satisfactory transaction structure has proved to be a difficult and complex task. The difficulties that have arisen do not signal a change of heart by the Government.

Could I ask the Deputy what the difficulty is in—

This is a very limited debate. Deputy Pat Carey to continue, without interruption.

Deputy Donal Carey should calm down. He is up and down all day – if it is not the buses, it is television.

The difficulties simply reflect that in a project such as this, practical realities must be factored into the implementation pro cess. Perhaps if Deputy Donal Carey had a copy of Deputy Higgins's report, which his committee produced, he might know exactly what the difficulties are.

I know exactly what they are.

The Deputy must allow Deputy Carey continue.

Does the Deputy want me to read the whole thing into the record? As the Minister has already outlined to the House during the course of this debate, the difficulties are in relation to devising a satisfactory transaction structure centred on how RTE's shareholding in the new entity would be calculated. The Deputies should relax.

We are relaxed.

The advice of the consortium of advisers to the project management group was that, to achieve the Government's objective—

The shares will be bought one of these days. They are going higher and higher.

The Deputy can be very rude at times. The advice was that the transaction should be progressed on the basis of a predetermined value of the RTE transmission business, based on a prudent investor approach. The Minister also referred to the opposition of the RTE Authority to such an approach and to the view of the Authority that the value of its transmission business should be determined by the marketplace.

She called it digital dithering.

The Deputies are like a Greek chorus. I support the Minister in her contention that there is a strong argument in favour of allowing RTE to expose its transmission business to the market. Such a course would only be justifiable, however, if the manner in which RTE's transmission business was exposed to the market did not impact negatively on the likely success of the project as a whole.

With all the recent media speculation on the subject, it would be easy to understand how those not involved in the process could be led to believe the Minister and the Government had made some dramatic change in policy. It is important to dispel such myths. The Minister has not put any new proposals on broadcasting to Government, as she said last night, and there has been no change in Government policy with regard to the introduction of digital terrestrial television in Ireland.

Steady as she goes.

I welcome the commitment of the Minister to consult widely with interested parties to assist her in the process of moving the pro ject forward. I commend the Minister on her recent initiative to invite Mr. Phil Flynn to facilitate the consultative process with RTE to ensure there is a common understanding among the parties involved within RTE on the public policy objective of Government to be realised, the factors that must be considered in the achievement of that objective—

The Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, has another script over there.

It is a pity the Minister could not explain it herself.

We must be getting interference from a satellite channel.

Deputies must not interrupt.

—the difficulties that have arisen in the development of a transaction structure and the parameters within which the process can move forward.

The task of the facilitator, which is to promote such a common understanding in order to facilitate the presentation of information to the Minister of the positions of these parties on the establishment of a digital terrestrial television entity, should be of considerable assistance in moving the process forward.

The approach being adopted by the Minister is the right approach and is the one most likely to result in the project moving forward on a successful basis. On the crucial issue of how the transaction is to be structured, the Minister has consulted widely with the interested parties and continues to do so. The Minister is to be admired for her resolve in conducting this consultation process in a proper way and not allowing the ongoing public, and sometimes mischievous, speculation in the media to detract her from this important task. If and when the Minister decides it is necessary to bring proposals to Government to progress the matter further, she will do so. It is important that all the parties involved are now allowed to get on with their deliberations to ensure—

They want to get on with it all right – we are with the Deputy on that one.

Who invited all the people to come in and make presentations?

I ask the Deputy to continue as time is running out.

—that this project moves forward as speedily and as successfully as possible. I hope the parties concerned are not hindered in their efforts by further unhelpful speculations from some of my otherwise very helpful colleagues.

(Interruptions).

I contribute to this debate to demonstrate my support for my colleague, the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, and to clarify a number of points relating to her desire to have an early roll-out of DTT in Ireland.

Before I address these issues, I point to the lack of maturity shown by Fine Gael on this matter, but maturity is too much to expect from a party whose policy, if one can call it that, has changed considerably in a few months.

On a point of order, am I entitled to have a copy of the Minister's script?

The Chair has no control over that.

Is the Minister speaking from notes or from a script?

A script, which will be circulated.

I thank the Minister.

Maturity is in short measure in Fine Gael because its policy has changed considerably over recent months. As usual its policy is as firmly rooted as a weather-cock in a high wind – swinging this way and that, whichever way the wind blows. Labour was the party that was supposed to have been in charge of broadcasting for four and a half years.

This script came originally from Claremorris.

All we got then was dithering, theatrics and posturing. Nothing really changed during Labour's time.

I gave details before the Minister came on the two publications.

The Minister without interruption.

No other Minister in the recent past has been as committed to public service broadcasting as Deputy Síle de Valera.

I ask the Minister to give way.

The Deputy should resume his seat.

The truth is bitter.

He cannot put this untruth on the record.

It is a matter of choice. He need not give way at this stage in his speech. I ask Deputy Higgins to resume his seat.

No, I do not move.

It is not untrue, it is good political comment which I am quite entitled to make. If you want to muzzle me that is your business, but I will not be muzzled.

No, I do not.

The Minister should address his remarks through the Chair.

No other Minister in the recent past has been as committed to public service broadcasting as Deputy Síle de Valera. At the Cabinet table and elsewhere she has emphasised that there is now a stronger need than ever for public service broadcasting, providing programmes of quality and catering for all interests. The Broadcasting Bill formulated by the Government and before this House, strengthens RTE's position as the national public broadcasting service.

On the provision of DTT, let us be clear about a few issues. RTE lobbied and were satisfied with what was provided for in the Bill. In brief a project management group with representatives from various Departments and RTE was formed to establish a company called Digico in which RTE would have a stake of 40% or less. Procedures were agreed on how this would be achieved, but when it became apparent that the outcome was not what RTE had expected, their reaction was to express difficulties which delayed the process.

What was the Minister's reaction?

There has been a considerable amount of scaremongering and spreading of false rumours since the media speculation started last month about possible changes to the Bill. These are spread in an attempt at short-term political point-scoring rather than in the interest of public service broadcasting. RTE's primary role is that of a national broadcaster.

(Interruptions).

Allow the Minister to continue.

Its role should not be seen as that of a national transmitter. Its broadcasting activities are not being privatised, but it should be remembered that the original proposal to sell the transmission network which RTE controls came from the station itself when it suggested the establishment of Digico. Let us not get caught up in spurious ideological debates as some people in this House wish to do.

Some of us know—

The Deputy is a good one, at ideology. The Deputy should not lecture me about ideology. The Deputy does a great deal of talking but we deliver.

(Interruptions).

This is not your brief.

The State provided the transmission hardware at a time when we had only one television station and one radio station both in public ownership. This was also a time when the State was involved in making sugar, selling life assurance policies and running a telephone company.

And offshore accounts.

Now sugar making, selling life assurance policies and running a telephone company are the responsibility of very successful public limited companies. The State has to be involved in certain business activities, but not all. As technology advances and the choice of broadcast delivery mechanisms increase through convergence with information and communication technologies the case for the State involvement in a transmission network diminishes.

As part of the scaremongering we had one commentator writing last Saturday that, "Control of transmission is the key to broadcasting. Whoever holds it has a powerful influence on content". That is sheer nonsense and demonstrates the ideological hang-ups of that person.

Tell that to Rupert Murdoch.

Is he saying that RTE which transmits the TV3 signal at present influences the content on TV3? Is that the case? It is not.

What about Fox Studios in LA owned by Mr. Murdoch?

Is he saying that the BBC which was forced to sell its transmission network in 1996 is influenced in some way regarding programme content? That claim is complete nonsense.

Another argument put forward by a few is that universal availability can only be achieved by a State broadcaster owning the transmission network. Again, this is completely wrong. Universal availability is achieved through licensing and regulation. All of this scaremongering has led to a certain amount of confusion among RTE staff. It was clear when the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera met staff representatives last week that they did not have the full information. It was for this reason that the Minister engaged the excellent services of Mr. Phil Flynn as a facilitator. His task will be, "To promote a common understanding amongst RTE, the RTE Trade Union Group and the RTE network employees likely to transfer to the new DTT entity". The terms of reference state that, "The task will not include negotiating the position of the Minister with any of the parties". This is the Minister's hands-off approach.

During the discussions on the Broadcasting Bill over the past month there appeared to be an impression in some quarters that Digico, if it went ahead as originally planned, would have provided a guaranteed income-stream for RTE. Yet again, this is incorrect. Digico would have had considerable investment over the next decade or more and it was by no means certain if and when the company would have been in a position to pay dividends.

The Fine Gael motion refers to the indexation of the television licence fee but in his contribution to this debate Deputy Kenny strangely did not refer to this. I suppose since tabling the motion, that the Mad Hatter—

On a point of order—

The Minister should give way to Deputy Kenny on a point of order.

The Minister did not write this script.

That is not a point of order. The Minister to continue.

I assure the Deputy that I wrote every word of this script.

That is not correct. RTE have a deficit of £9 million and the indexation of tax will help them break even. This is wrong,

There are empty vessels on the other side of the House making a great amount of noise.

On a point of information, the Minister is incorrect. He did not read my contribution.

The Deputy should allow the Minister to continue.

You are not making a very good hand of heckling. You have no policy, it is like a weathervane, it goes from one side to the other depending on which way the wind is blowing.

I ask the Minister to continue and to address his remarks through the Chair.

Deputy Kenny did not refer—

(Interruptions).

I challenge you. I will listen to you. He did not refer to the television licence.

The Minister should address his remarks through the Chair.

I proposed the motion on indexation. I referred to it in my script. This is beneath him. It is a bad attempt at falsehoods.

I suppose, since the motion was tabled the Mad Hatter referred to last night by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy De Valera must have got hold of the zapper again and switched channels to the "TV3 line".

It is beneath him.

(Interruptions).

Fianna Fáil has made it clear in Opposition and in Government that each application by RTE for an increase in the cost of the television licence would be considered on it merits. Since our election to the Government almost three years ago, no application has been received by the Minister from RTE. Earlier this year the Minister made it quite clear that Irish television households, who this year are expected to contribute £67 million in licence fee revenue to RTE must be constantly reassured that this revenue is well spent.

I emphasise that neither the Government nor Deputy Síle de Valera have changed their policy on the introduction of DTT. The Minister is considering changes to the structure of developing the digital platform because of RTE's approach. The delays are not due to the Minister nor the Government. Her priority and the priority of her Cabinet colleagues, including me, is the early roll-out of DTT. We want to get on with the job. If we were not annoyed and heckled by the Opposition we might get on with the job.

Thank you, Sir. That shows an open mind on the Deputy's behalf. I have not even spoken and he is already criticising me.

It is the Minister of State's looks.

Deputy Carey is the resident heckler on that side of the House. It will give him a bad name.

Please allow the Minister of State to reply without interruption.

The Minister has said that she has not made any new proposals on broadcasting to the Government. Neither has the Minister announced that she has made any changes to Government policy.

Can we get a copy of this script?

Government policy with regard to the introduction of digital terrestrial television has not been changed. Neither has the Government's commitment to public service broadcasting changed.

May I ask again for a copy of this script?

The Government's belief in the importance of independent broadcasting has not changed and is underlined by the provisional support for the sector in the Broadcasting Bill, 1999. The Minister has indicated that there have been practical difficulties in developing a structure for the establishment of a digital terrestrial television entity, or Digico as it has become known.

May we have a copy of the speech?

Please refrain from interrupting when the Minister of State is speaking.

The Minister has clearly outlined to the House what those difficulties are and the steps she is taking to move the process forward.

Would the newly appointed Minister of State grant us the concession of giving us a copy of his script?

I can indeed. I will have it circulated later.

Wonderful.

The RTE authority has taken a particular stand with regard to the method of the sale of the transmission network. The advice available to the Minister is that it is not possible to develop an appropriate transaction structure that would satisfy the authority's position of exposing the transmission network to the marketplace within the confines of the existing Government decision on the introduction of DTT. If the wishes of the RTE authority in this regard are to be satisfied it would be necessary for the Minister to contemplate changes to the structures of the DTT entity as envisaged in the original Government decision. This is a matter of detail rather than of principle. It is not a reversal of policy and neither is it a reason to withdraw the Broadcasting Bill, 1999.

If changes are made to the detail of the transaction process it will be necessary to bring forward amendments to the Bill. Any changes to the Bill or to the detail of the policy context in which the Bill was drafted, will be dealt with in the House in an appropriate way at an appropriate time.

I still have not seen the script.

The object of this particular exercise is to establish a platform which will, as far as possible, provide universal access at reasonable rates to digital television and to the other benefits of the information society that the DTT platform will be capable of delivering.

The possible separation of the component activities of the DTT entity as originally envisaged, does not change this fundamental objective. The transmission of broadcast services in digital form will be licensed and regulated from a technical point of view by the Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation, as is provided for in the Broadcasting Bill, 1999, and as is currently the case in respect of analogue broadcasting.

There is no question, as some media reports would have us believe, of simply handing over the operation and control of transmission to the highest bidder.

It is the same script.

It was always the intention that broadcasting transmission would be a regulated function with obligations regarding coverage and charges for provision of facilities. The Broadcasting Bill provides for this. The ODTR has confirmed that it intends to impose onerous obligations on the transmission entity. In addition, as the Broadcasting Bill provides that the transmission company will be obliged to carry the services of RTE, TG4 and TV3 in analogue and digital form, there will be no opportunities to prevent or restrict access to our indigenous television channels.

It is interesting to note that the BBC was required to sell off its transmission network in 1996. I have not noticed that the fabric of society in Britain has changed since then. BSkyB, for all the concerns expressed about its activities, has managed to achieve its position of strength without ownership either of the satellite system on which it transmits, or the cable television system on which it is distributed. While I have no doubt that Mr. Murdoch and his colleagues at BSkyB would like to control delivery platforms if they could, they kept their sights firmly on the main prize – programme content.

The important issue is that Irish viewers have access to the creative output of our programme makers and broadcasting in digital form, and that they continue to have access to our television stations in analogue form until digital becomes the norm for everyone, regardless of economic circumstances. The Minister's proposals in the Broadcasting Bill, 1999, have these objectives. The fundamental principles have not changed. The Minister has developed a comprehensive policy on broadcasting and has put in place a mechanism for delivering on all aspects of this policy.

While it is the job of the Opposition to oppose, there should be more to this than the cynical knocking that it has engaged in.

I am pleased to support the amendment which welcomes the Government decision to arrange for the establishment of a digital terrestrial television platform. I welcome also the Minister's decision to appoint a facilitator. She made reference to the appropriate structures that take the position of all interested parties into account. We have heard much talk about RTE being under threat and in a state of uncertainty. That would be a retrograde step for RTE and TG4. In visits I have made to RTE, I have been impressed by the work in progress and the planning of programmes. There is an excellent RTE website and first class music and education programmes.

From having spoken to people involved in local radio I know that they, too, feel under threat. Local radio has been very successful. As we speak, the official launch of the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland is taking place. It is the first time that independent broadcasters in radio and television are being officially represented nationally. They are proud that the very positive JNLR figures show that independent radio is the number one choice of listeners.

Those involved in local radio often say there is little mention of their future. They are at the cutting edge of technology and they were quick to use the Internet. Not only do they provide local news and information but they are also prepared to move their broadcasting equipment to London, New York and Boston to broadcast programmes which are of local interest in Ireland.

On Galway Bay radio, the Keith Finnegan programme which is broadcast between 10 a.m. and 12 noon each morning, is repeated at 12 midnight. Maybe it is a time slot, as Deputy Rabbitte once said, for drunks and insomniacs. However, I am sometimes returning from meetings at that time of night or early morning and I can hear the morning's programme repeated. I also note that RTE, in the "Irish Collection", has repeat programmes in the early morning. Local radio stations do not receive as much assistance as they should. They also face the prospect of having to renew their licences.

The Minister is committed to removing the 3% levy and I welcome the fact that she has promised a fund of £500,000 to help local infrastructure. The continued commitment of the Government to ensuring the successful introduction of digital terrestrial television is to be welcomed also. While Ireland is further advanced than most EU countries in the steps it has taken to establish a DTT platform, I recognise that the window of opportunity for the introduction of DTT will be influenced by factors outside this process. I welcome, therefore, the manner in which the Minister has approached the complex task of developing a satisfactory transition structure.

Rather than engaging through the media in a public debate on many non-issues the Minister has instead consulted widely with her Cabinet colleagues, the RTE authority and management, the RTE trade union group and with representatives of those people likely to transfer to the new DTT entity. It is incredible that the Minister should be criticised for acting in a responsible manner by consulting with all the interested parties and taking every necessary measure to ensure that the policy objective for the successful introduction of DTT is achieved.

It is ironic that the Minister should be criticised in the debate both for doing deals behind people's backs and for consulting widely. A lack of consistency has been evident from the Opposition's contributions. Deputy Kenny gave us the TV3 line in November 1999—

I did no such thing.

—and now in March 2000 he gives us the RTE line.

It never happened.

Allow Deputy Kitt to conclude.

This is outrageous carry on from these Fianna Fáil members.

The considerable commitment of time and energy which the Minister has invested in this project is indicative of its importance. Digital broadcasting will fast become the norm throughout Europe. DTT will represent an important and integral element of the digital broadcasting framework.

Excuse me.

As Deputy Kitt has only 30 seconds left, I would ask Deputy Kenny to allow him to continue.

I have only 30 seconds.

He should say what I said on the TV3 line.

He is making his own speech, not the Deputy's.

I would ask the Deputy to conclude his speech.

DTT is likely to be the only platform with universal coverage which will carry the national free-to-air service.

The Minister said the same thing last night.

Conversions of technologies will mean that new services, other than traditional broadcasting services, will be available on the digital television platforms. Participation in the information society for many homes that do not own a PC will be via the digital television platforms. Due to its capacity for universal coverage the successful establishment of the DTT platform will open new possibilities to those who to date have been excluded from the information society. Media speculation on how the transaction to establish the DTT entity is to be structured has done nothing to advance the process and some of the speculation has been misleading and very unhelpful. I am confident the Minister's course of action will result in this project moving forward and I congratulate her on the manner in which she has handled this complex and sensitive issue.

Deputy Ring is sharing time with Deputies Ulick Burke, Perry, Deenihan, Flanagan and Enright.

I am amazed by the Government U-turn on this issue. We were told for years that the Government would protect RTE. I have never been a great lover of RTE, I have always preferred local radio and have always felt that RTE should have had programmes doing what local radio and television are doing. It is now too late and this power will be taken out of their hands because in future local radio stations will also be licensed to broadcast television programmes.

I am surprised the Government made this decision as it is important that our national station is strong and broadcasts national culture. After the recent death of actor Tony Doyle there was a repeat of "Amongst Women". We do not see enough Irish programmes like this. Who is behind the Government plan to sell off station equipment in order to set up this company? The Government was determined that this would not happen. What are the influences behind the scenes and why did the Government change its mind? There were a lot of shenanigans in relation to local radio licences and some of those matters are being investigated by tribunals.

I am bitterly disappointed that RTE is being attacked in this way. RTE staff feel insecure. They do not know what the future holds and they want to know how RTE is to be funded, as there is no leadership. The Government has fought with RTE, the nurses, the gardaí, the farmers and the bus men, yet we see opinion polls that state the Government is doing well. Those carrying out the polls are going to Fianna Fáil supporters; they are certainly not going to the general public.

As Deputy Kitt said, some Members met a delegation tonight from local radio stations all over the country. I hope we will see local television in the future, as local radio stations have been a great success. They have brought communities together and given them an opportunity to voice their opinions. I compliment Paul Claffey and Mid-West Radio, as that station is doing wonderful work in Mayo. Some people have criticised me for being on it too often, but I do not mind. At least one can get one's message across whether one is a member of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour. I hope the Government gives those stations some of the licence fee revenue as they are entitled to spend it on home-based programmes and outside broadcasts.

I cannot understand what is happening. Those in RTE are confused, as is the Government. I compliment Deputy Kenny on tabling this motion. The Government will have to make up its mind regarding its public broadcasting policy. What outside influence has made the Government change its mind? The Minister went to California to find investors for the Irish film industry, but another signal was being sent to RTE. Private operators could raise money, but RTE could not. The Minister is saying she does not know what she is going to do with RTE. Maybe she will get rid of RTE or maybe she will freeze it out by not giving it the necessary money.

I direct the Minister's attention towards the future of local radio. On one hand the Minister seems to be acknowledging the contribution of local radio and praising it while on the other she is doing little to secure its future. I am concerned that local radio will not be able to play on the new digital pitch, given the new digital arrangements that are proposed. I hope the Minister will guarantee a role, function and future for local radio in the digital age.

I am concerned by a recent comment of Mr. Conor Maguire of the Independent Radio and Television Commission who said that he would be in a position to distribute further regional licences in the near future and that there may also be a reallocation or redistribution of licences within the local franchise area. This raises a serious question mark about the future of local radio. Most local radio stations have been highly successful and have played an important role in communities, particularly in rural regions outside the Dublin and Cork areas. I am concerned that Government policies might act as disincentives to the future flourishing of local radio and I am also concerned by the lack of consultation between local radio and the Independent Radio and Television Commission and between local radio and the Minister.

How does the Minister envisage local radio participating in the digital framework that has been outlined? Unless she is prepared to underpin the future of local radio, many stations will go to the wall, there is no doubt about that. The current local radio structure cannot exist in or compete with the digital framework that will come in. The JNLR survey of August 1999 shows the local independent radio market share to be 51% while RTE's share is 49%. I remind the Minister that there are more than 900 people in employment in the 21 local radio stations.

The existing radio licences will expire in just over two years. What will happen to the huge investment in those stations? The marriage of local radio and digital technology is vital if local radio is to survive into the new millennium. I hope the Minister is more positive about the future of local radio, otherwise we will have done a huge disservice to communities all over the country.

I am very concerned by Fianna Fáil's approach to broadcasting. For example, in 1994 the community television service throughout rural Ireland used to cost in the region of £30 to £40 but the then Government sold off that service to Irish Multi-Channel or Horizon and the service now costs £210.84 per annum. That service should not have been sold off and we, on this side of the House, did everything possible to prevent that happening.

It is very important that a large section of the television transmission service remains in public ownership and that the Department, the Government and RTE have a say in that service. The people who control the transmission system will control what is broadcast on television and radio. The Minister stated that she is considering allowing the transmission business to be exposed to the market. Today's Irish Independent clearly indicates the intention to sell off 100% of the transmission system. If the system is to be sold to the highest bidder, what is to prevent Rupert Murdoch or some such person taking complete control of the system? I am very concerned about this issue. If the system were to be sold to the highest bidder, our broadcasting service provider, RTE, which has done excellent work over the years, would be in great danger. Given the tradition of the Fianna Fáil Party, I was very surprised to see what happened in regard to community television and I am equally surprised that it now appears the transmission system is to be sold to the highest bidder. It will be a sad day for this country if that happens. I urge the Minister to act with caution. She should redraft the broadcasting legislation and return to this House with a more considered Bill. Some 300 jobs will be lost in RTE if the transmission service is sold.

The community radio sector is doing an excellent job but it feels its back is to the wall at present. The sector does not feel it is receiving the Government support to which it feels it is entitled. In my own area, we have Midlands Radio 3, Shannonside, Tipp FM and so on. All these stations are doing an excellent job in difficult circumstances. The Minister must take their concerns on board. Apparently, the Minister feels that this is the right time to sell the transmission system. I would be opposed to that and I urge the Minister to prevent that happening.

I had an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Broadcasting Bill on Second Stage so I intend to be brief. In her contribution last night, the Minister alleged that members of the Opposition were being heavily influenced by TV3 and the lobbying it carried out. I am aware that the departmental officials probably draft the Minister's speech. I referred to TV3 during the debate on the Broadcasting Bill but I only received one document from the station about which I raised some questions during my Second Stage speech.

It is very unfair to accuse Deputies of taking a particular line. Our responsibility during the Second Stage debate is to highlight the issues which are raised by interest groups. We are entitled to express our individual views on the legislation and, doubtless, our spokesperson will articulate the party line. The Minister's contribution last night reflected the total confusion and lack of policy direction in her Department on the broadcasting issue. The goalposts change from week to week.

Earlier this evening, I attended a presentation by Independent Broadcasters in the Shelbourne Hotel and the predominant view was that the entire broadcasting issue is in disarray, that there is a high degree of confusion, that the national broadcaster is totally demoralised and that we are currently in a state of upheaval and flux. The Minister's advisers seem to be adding to this malaise of confusion.

The Minister clarified that digital audio broadcasting does not form part of the Bill's content although the people involved in local and community radio were convinced that it did. Does that reflect a lack of communication on the Minister's part with the local radio sector? I received a letter from Mr. Paul Sheehan, General Manager of Kerry Radio. That station, which is very well run, has one of the highest listenerships in the country. I am aware that the Minister clarified this issue to some extent last night but I want to refer to some of the points made in the letter. The letter states:

The key issue in the Broadcasting Bill pertaining to radio concerns licence renewal. All 21 local radio stations have been granted licences which will expire in 2003 or 2004. At that point, each station will have to re-apply, along with other interested parties. This will seriously complicate the transition of radio to digital. This transition to digital will require considerable investment by local radio in digital technology. Such an investment will require funding but no investor is going to risk capital on a station that may not exist in three years' time. To tackle this issue, Radio Kerry, along with other stations within Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, is proposing that the Broadcasting Bill be amended to include the following . . . that all existing licence holders should have their licences automatically renewed for a period of ten years with a number of safeguards.

If the Minister plans to introduce a digital audio broadcasting policy, she should allay the fears of local radio stations and extend the licences at this stage. Obviously, digital audio broadcasting will come into effect in the not too distant future. The Minister should reconsider her intention to reject Deputy Kenny's proposal. If she does not intend to take Deputy Kenny's advice, surely the best way to proceed would be to issue a memorandum to ascertain the level of interest which exists and to find out from the interested parties what direction should be taken. We do not have any clear direction at this stage in regard to this very com plex area of legislation. There are many experts but none of them appear to have a solution, if there is one. However, it is important that we draw on the ideas of international interests as to how it should be done. It is also important that Internet services be provided through digital television. Some 98% of the population have televisions and it is desirable that we transmit as much information as possible through that medium. It is important that the Minister proceeds properly and consults with potential bidders.

I thank Deputy Kenny for tabling this important motion. I attended the launch today in the Shelbourne Hotel of the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, which has been formed by local radio stations and TV3. I appeal to the Minister to consult with this group because local radio stations provide an invaluable service and are part of the broadcasting fabric of this country. It is important that they are consulted on changes in broadcasting. Local radio was established ten years ago, it has a huge listenership and must be consulted as a source of funding.

I am not an expert on broadcasting but I know about terrestrial television and interactive services from reading the newspapers. Last month, the Minister caused a sensation by circulating a document to her Cabinet colleagues in which she suggested that RTE be excluded from retaining an interest in its transmission system when sold by public auction. Broadcasting is big business. We see how mobile 'phone licences became so valuable due to the growth in telecommunications. The Minister initially proposed that RTE would control up to 40% of the new commercial entity, Digico, in return for its transmission system. Even more surprising was the suggestion that this crucial change in Government policy would be dealt with by Committee Stage amendments to the Broadcasting Bill, which is before the House. If the Minister is determined to engage in such a fundamental policy shift, the least the public should expect is a clear statement of her intentions and the reasons for the change.

To date, the Minister has said the difficulties arise because of the advice received on the establishment of Digico from a financial consortium led by the AIB Finance Corporation. It is hard to put a value on our transmission system. It was understood that the financial consortium valued the transmission network at £30 million to £40 million, rather than £60 million to £70 million as envisaged by RTE. It resisted what it regarded as the bargain basement sale of a prime asset. A national television station without a transmission system is like a football pitch without goals.

Public debate is essential to democracy and when control of the State airwaves is involved, it takes on an added significance. The Minister is responsible for ensuring that use of the airwaves contributes to the public good. This may or may not require RTE retaining an interest in the transmission system but issues should be fully ventilated in public before legislation is brought before the Dáil. Otherwise, those who suspect unethical commercial dealings will be provided with ammunition. We have seen the creation of multi-millionaires because of technology and I am certain that they will also be created because of changes in broadcasting. Decisions taken by the Minister will have far-reaching implications.

The method designed to facilitate a change in policy is also unacceptable. The Broadcasting Bill was introduced in the Oireachtas last year and was debated extensively before receiving a Second Stage reading, on the clear understanding that up to 40% of Digico would be owned by RTE. The Minister now appears determined to enforce a complete sale. This is a major shift in policy and will result in RTE's shareholding being reduced from 40% to zero. Such a fundamental shift should not be dealt with by a series of amendments. If the Minister is determined to pursue this new course of action, she should withdraw the legislation before the Dáil and introduce a new Bill. The issues could then be fully debated and reasons for the change in policy given to the public.

I compliment Deputies Kenny and Donal Carey on their astute reading of this legislation. It is the most important legislation to come before the Dáil in 30 years and has far-reaching implications for business. It involves the development of the digitalisation of television which will result in huge changes as we reach European and American standards. We have a responsibility to obtain the maximum return on State investment in the national airwaves, especially RTE. Many jobs are at risk and we must reassure people that our transmission system is not being sold at a bargain basement price. Local radio stations have no resources and are crying out for funding. Part of the profits from selling the transmission system should be reinvested in local radio stations who provide an invaluable service.

The sole source of income for independent broadcasters is advertising. Local independent radio is almost ten years old and in recent years it has become economically viable. It does not receive any of the licence fee, which is also a bone of contention. This matter has far-reaching implications and Deputy Kenny referred to the problems involved. We have a duty to those who elected us to voice their concerns. Decisions should be made transparently and Members should be entitled to ask questions on their constituents' behalf. With the economy doing so well, we must not be left short. The sum of £70 million may seem like a great deal of money but it is not when the Government can invest hundreds of millions. It is hard to put a price on a national asset. Given that we are being advised by AIB Finance Corporation which was uncertain of the valuation, there needs to be an independent assessment of the sale of the transmission network.

A report in the Irish Independent stated the Government would exclude RTE from a joint venture company which will build the State's new digital television network. This matter must be clarified. I am also concerned that Ms Doyle, the Director of Telecommunications Regulation, stated that the delays will not cause any damage. However, we have delayed on the matter for quite a while and it is a pity that the Minister's proposals regarding the sale of RTE were not discussed in the House before this. Digital television is the best way to provide universal coverage in the Republic. We must remember that many people living in certain parts of the country and who pay licence fees cannot receive RTE 1. Sky News' digital system is up and running.

I compliment Deputy Kenny for giving me an opportunity to speak on this important issue and for introducing it in Private Members' time. It is an important issue which will have far-reaching implications. I hope the Minister will consider Deputies' detailed statements and proposals to change the many problems which will emerge in this issue.

I hope I will be able to clarify some of the issues raised. The old saying comes to mind – there are none so blind as those who will not see. That is certainly true in this case. Some of what I have heard has surprised me coming from people whom I normally respect.

Originally a proposal could not have been brought to Government in the form now being contemplated because RTE's difficulties were not apparent at that time. It is crazy when matters change over time that we cannot change with them. We always talk about moving forward. If circumstances change, must we live in a time warp and not deal with issues as they unfold? In this case the issue unfolded for RTE and the Government would be wrong not to change accordingly. The scaremongering about handing over the transmission system to a private entity is nonsense. The people objecting to this have no problem with a regulator ensuring public access to the telecommunications system. No one seems to have a problem with this because they know the regulator can insist on absolute universal access. We can now do by way of regulation what we previously had to do by way of ownership, therefore we should stop scaremongering. Having listened to the debate, I wonder how the telecommunications companies work because they do not own the transmission system. To get through to a call centre, one must go through the transmission system. The same principle is involved here. Let us not run away on some high flying principles when there are no principles involved. We can absolutely copperfasten that these transmission systems will be available universally to the people to whom they should be available.

On digital radio broadcasting, this is an extraordinary situation. On the one hand, Deputy after Deputy spoke about giving away the national broadcasting franchise while, on the other, they spoke about local radio. IBI, whose formation I welcome, object to RTE retaining shares in the transmission system. It is about time Deputies told IBI which side of the fence they are on because they have a huge problem with this proposal.

It is all part of the confusion.

Ní féidir siúil ar dhá thaobh den bhóthar ag an am gcéanna. The Minister has indicated she will consider a way of copperfastening the fact that this Bill has nothing to do with digital radio. However, to be absolutely sure, she is willing to look at some way of providing comfort to those who persist in believing that this will affect digital radio. The innuendos about some backroom dealing with financial institutions is incredible. Whatever may be said about a decision made by the Minister and me in our respective roles in the Department – I work with the Minister on a daily basis and I am related to her – no one is more interested than she is in the national good. We may all see the national good in a slightly different way but no one is less likely than the Minister to be influenced by personal gain. I expected Members on the other side of the House to have known this. Whatever charge might be made, that one would not stand up.

The Minister has added to the confusion and not answered our questions.

Please allow the Minister of State to conclude.

Unfortunately, I have just four minutes to reply. I would like to answer the remainder of the questions which can be easily answered. If the Ceann Comhairle will give me one minute of Deputy Kenny's time, I am sure he will indulge me.

The question of cross-ownership is being handled by the Tánaiste and has been dealt with. The sporting rights issue has already been dealt with. All the issues raised are being dealt with rationally. Unfortunately, I do not have time to go into detail on the issues but this has been a particularly poor performance on the part of the Opposition.

I am disappointed at the way in which the Government has dealt with the motion. Since this Dáil began, a committee has examined, without being partisan, the problems of digital broadcasting. That was on the agenda in 1996 and 1997 and it is untrue to say that Deputy Higgins had not made efforts to introduce a broadcasting Bill.

That was not said.

He produced the heads of the Bill. I facilitated the Minister as chairman of the committee when Members on her side of the House supported public service broadcasting. Therefore, it came as a great shock to all of us to hear her on television on her way to Los Angeles saying that the entire transmission system would be sold. This was contrary to what we thought was proposed in the Bill. The Minister was telling us for three years that she agreed with RTE's concept. She said last night that RTE came up with the figure of 40%. She continued to speak in very puzzling and diverse tongues about the issues. As chairman of the committee, I have listened to all sides of the argument and the Minister has not explained to me or to the public exactly what the problems are. There is no transparency or understanding.

Miss De Valera

That is because the Deputy is heckling rather than listening.

I will try heckling because the Minister told a blatant untruth last night about our campaigning to have 400 people made redundant from RTE. I had to respond to that because it was going a bit too far. We gave the Minister every chance last night to answer our queries and she did not take it. She pretends to understand the problems about broadcasting, the new era, digital, the legislation and the different technical problems that exist. I listened to all sides of the argument for two and a half years and found it difficult to understand, even though I do not think I am dense. I thought the Minister would have said we would deal with the issue together because no one wishes to get rid of RTE. No one wishes to privatise RTE, unless it is the Minister's intention to do so and sell the shares. The question of shareholding, who will be involved in the framework and whether the technical staff or the unions and management will run RTE has been doing the rounds since the Minister intervened on the transmission issue.

I did not like to hear the Minister announce she would give an open-ended consultancy to AIB until the matter is resolved. AIB has fallen down in this matter and does not deserve this consultancy. It is obvious it did not even look at EU legislation on the matter. Had it done so it would be apparent to us all when this sudden problem arose. If it did not know how to handle these things why did it take the job? What monitoring took place on the competence of AIB to do this job? That is not apparent. Is there not a problem with European legislation and the Minister's lack of consultation? If there is a difficulty why did not the Minister say there was a problem on the European side and that she did not deal with it? The Government believed it would be able to roll out of this problem less tarnished than the others because the Fine Gael Party does not understand anything and the Labour Party has an ideological hang up. One can pin those tags on children at school. Those who have invested in this industry are not amused. As my colleagues said last night those in the independent radio side and in TV3 are not amused.

The people in TV3—

The heads in RTE are scared of making a statement of authority on their view and on what the Minister is proposing to do. Mr. Flynn is rolled out. He is a great individual and was involved in solving different industrial relations problems. He was right not to refuse a job from the Minister. That is an honorable thing to do. That the Minister handed the decision over to Phil Flynn is abrogating responsibility.

That is not so and the Deputy knows it. It might help if the Deputy looked up the meaning of facilitator in the dictionary.

I do not know, I do not understand, I bow to the Minister's superior knowledge. If the Minister had superior knowledge she would have this matter resolved and it would be over and done with.

She is a ditherer.

For the past three and a half years she has tried to do something about it. She shouted from these benches "when will the Broadcasting Bill be published" as if she needed it yesterday. After three and a half years in office the best she can do is announce it on her escape to Los Angeles while the guru from Claremorris is running the show.

On a point of information—

There is no such term as a point of information.

It is not three and a half years but two and a half years. I know it seems longer for the Deputy.

I wish you the best. The Minister has the Minister of State beside her. He is the only person who uses the Irish language properly on that side. TG4 has been established. The Minister has had many opportunities to guarantee some income to TG4 but has failed to do so. That is the reason I believe Deputy Kenny's motion is a good one. The Bill has to be withdrawn, it is a shambles and a disgrace. If the Department officials do not ask the Minister to withdraw it, it will reflect on them as well. The Minister's behaviour is reflecting badly on our colleagues in the Department whom I respect. It is a shambles.

It is most objectionable that any Deputy should refer to officials. That is something that is not done. This is not the first time Deputy Carey has referred to our officials.

I did not take his remarks as reflecting on the officials. It would be better if there was no reference to officials.

I did not reflect on the officials.

That was the Chair's interpretation.

Will Deputy Carey clarify that?

Deputy Carey did not reflect adversely on the officials. I thank the Members who contributed to this debate. I am sorry the Government parties felt it incumbent on them to treat it in a flippant, arrogant and grossly untruthful manner. I am surprised at Ministers and Minister of State who came in and read prepared scripts from the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, without an understanding of the matter, in the knowledge that what they were reading was new to them.

The Minister referred last night to scurrilous remarks and a new low by Deputy Kenny in respect of his comments about 400 redundancies. At the hearing of the committee on 30 November 1999 in response to a question from me, following the RTE review of operations in the summer of 1998, it was indicated that 300 redundancies would achieve a core saving of £10 million, that 400 redundancies would achieve a saving of over £13 million and that the director general said it needed a saving of £15 million over three years. The scriptwriters did not do themselves or the Minister justice. It is beneath the Minister to involve herself in that kind of activity.

The Minister also referred to belittling the House. Through her activities, comments and incommunicado position in Los Angeles the Minister belittled the Oireachtas, the committee and the members of her party who serve on that committee by leaking a story to Independent newspapers with a vested interest in Princes Holdings. She informed us that 70% of the story was true without confirming which 30% was false.

The Minister took 30 minutes last night to say very little. Leaving aside some snide comments and a forced attempt at humour she told us only that the Bill was flawed and that after a year or more the working party involved had convinced her of this. While she said the policy had not changed she admitted RTE is no longer seeking a strategic partner for DTT and will be compelled to sell its transmission assets. I would regard a switch from partnership to privatisation as a major change in policy, as do RTE and its employees. The Minister deplores the delays which she said are not the fault of the Government but failed to say who caused them, or why, in her comments about digital dithering. She advised Deputy Carey to look up the dictionary, but if she were to look it up she would find that digital dithering is an actual technique in the conversion of analogue to digital. She deplored recent media comment and speculation without providing clarity on her policy or plans. She has not told the House whether the transmission system will be brought to the market. She has ensured speculation will continue unabated and with it the anger and unhappiness of RTE. She would have us believe in one breath that RTE is a confident and competent organisation valiantly fighting to protect its role and in the next breath that she has been forced to employ and appoint a facilitator to Montrose to explain her policies and Government objectives to RTE staff and management.

The Deputy will have to look up the dictionary.

We have had the same bewildering experience as the RTE management and workers groups. The Minister met them and failed to explain to them what she means. She called in Mr. Philip Flynn, as facilitator, to do her job. She did not tell us the problem issues. Neither did she say why the exercise was necessary. If she is unable to explain her policies to her own people, having met everybody involved, that speaks for itself of her ability to do the job she has been commissioned to do by the Taoiseach.

I take responsibility for the decisions I make because I believe in what I say.

The Minister has not explained whether the valuation of the RTE assets is still an issue for the facilitator to deal with. Is there any truth in the suggestion that there is a fine tradition in Fianna Fáil of impacting on this valuation decision? Would she be prepared to allow the facilitator to come before the committee of which Deputy Carey is chairman, in private or in public, to explain it? The extent of her direction and action in this matter has been abysmal. She established a group management project in 1999, which has been a year in existence and has only recently discovered that State aid is a problem. The Minister presides over a Department which is lacking in morale and leadership. Dúchas is in disarray with a backlog of 3,000 planning applications.

That is incorrect.

Another fallacy.

There are serious delays in the issuing of archaeological licences. Fireplaces are being stolen in the Ordnance Survey complex in the Phoenix Park. There is no archivist in the National Museum. Genealogy is in disarray and riven with internal tensions.

That is wrong too. Where are the Deputy's facts?

Last night the Minister quoted from Alice in Wonderland. Lewis Carroll spoke of the March hare, the mad hatter and the dormouse. Perhaps the Minister sees herself as Alice in Wonderland who fell into the hole after the white rabbit, became bewildered and caused havoc as a consequence.

The Deputy cannot even find an analogy of his own.

If the Minister continues this level of ineptitude she may become known as the banshee of broadcasting, wailing and waiting while the end is nigh.

Amendment put.

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.

Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John. Tá–continued

Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Kennedy, Michael.

O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Ahearn, Theresa.Allen, Bernard.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis.Boylan, Andrew.Broughan, Thomas.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gildea, Thomas.Gilmore, Éamon.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.Hogan, Philip.

Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Barrett and Stagg.
Amendment declared carried.
Amendment No. 2 not moved.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.
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