I wish to share my time with Deputy Olivia Mitchell.
Private Members' Business. - Road Traffic (Joyriding) Bill, 2000: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I welcome the introduction of this Bill because it gives us an opportunity to highlight this important issue and provide solutions to this growing problem in many disadvantaged communities. The 1998 road statistics show that 92 people were involved in joyriding accidents and five joyriders were killed.
Joyriding is a most inappropriately named crime, which is never far from the headlines in many communities. Many people are trapped in their own homes as soon as these cowboys go on the prowl at night. To many of these young people, until damage or personal injury is caused, the term may seem inoffensive. To suggest joyriding is simply having a laugh is a gross underestimation of its impact on communities. Having to explain to parents why their dead child was mown down is no laughing matter or a cause for any joy.
The most tragic aspect of joyriding and car crime in recent years has been the significant number of deaths and injuries caused to innocent pedestrians and car users. Garda reports show that almost 14,000 cars are stolen nationally each year. This has been compounded by the introduction of the new national car test, which has provided an unprecedented number of vehicles in which young people can joyride. Rather than incur the cost of necessary repairs for the NCT, some unscrupulous owners and dealers have off-loaded their vehicles to youths who have vandalised them or used them for joyriding.
These cars – company cars – are purchased for as little as £15 or £20 and they are completely unroadworthy. It is a strange turn of events that the Government initiative to remove bangers from our roads is encouraging the proliferation of these company cars. The Government must take strong and swift action in the immediate future if these urban rallies are to be combated. The Government claims it is impossible to control the sale of these cars and the Minister of State, Deputy Dan Wallace, has tried to wash his hands in terms of making any intervention.
Will the Minister answer the following question? There are 9 million cattle in this country, 400% more cattle than cars, yet the controls and movement of cattle is strictly regulated. Why can we not implement a similar system for cars? All cars sold by a car dealer or individual should meet the NCT requirements and should be certified as such, otherwise the car should be sold to a licensed dismantler for scrappage. If a vehicle ends up as a company car, the last registered owner must be liable to prosecution unless he or she can prove that he or she fulfilled this requirement. This simple initiative would resolve the current problem with company cars and the issue of abandoned cars in estates.
Joyriding is a more fundamental problem which should be tackled in the context of the Children Bill which is currently before the House. There is a need to develop diversion programmes for young people who engage in joyriding and to provide facilities for communities that have been ravaged by the problems of drugs and crime. Many of the young people involved in joyriding have a genuine interest in driving and the maintenance of cars. We should, therefore, take an approach similar to projects for young people to deal with the issue of stray horses.
Projects should be established which would send offenders to a driving school. Perhaps some of the newly abandoned Army barracks could be used for this purpose. The Government should establish a traffic school for offenders who would attend classroom sessions in training centres where they would receive driving and attitude training. This would include group sessions on behaviour and car maintenance for youths who have been caught joyriding. Funding for this proposal could come from the £15 million collected annually in road traffic fines.
Offenders would have to successfully complete the driver education course. Classroom topics would cover rules of the road, how motor cars work and driving behaviour, with emphasis on courtesy and the importance of safety on our roads. The current penalties are not feared by joyriders; to the contrary, they look forward to the challenge of avoiding arrest by the Garda.
The situation where one person is killed on our roads every 18 hours is unacceptable and radical alternatives to this problem are needed. The Government has been planning for the last two and a half years to introduce road safety and driver behaviour training to the second level curriculum, but it has yet to implement this plan. The only road safety education provided at present is teaching pupils how to cross the road safely. This programme could be initially introduced to the transition year curriculum. It would be similar to the current initiative being undertaken by the Donegal Road Safety Working Group. Its programme involves the Garda, driving instructors, health board staff, driver testers and insurance companies who provide an input to the transition year course over a 12 week period.
In common with drug related crime, car theft and joyriding are symptoms of alienation and despair among youths who have dropped out of the education system and have been poorly resourced in terms of youth, leisure and sporting facilities. One of the main reasons there is so much juvenile delinquency is that many children are illiterate. The problem of illiteracy is not being addressed in school. Schools are unable to identify the problem and if they are lucky enough to identify it, they cannot deal with it. This includes remedial teachers. Research has shown that the esteem of young people in detention centres was increased when this difficulty was addressed. Their way of striking back at society is to commit crime because society has failed them by not addressing their reading and other social difficulties.
The Government can continue to turn a blind eye to these social problems but they are coming home to roost. It is time the Government shaped up or shipped out. The public is seeing through the smoke screen surrounding the Government. They are not prepared to accept a laissez-faire attitude to social injustice.
I support the Bill introduced by the Labour Party. I wish to concentrate on the problem of the large number of cars which are being abandoned particularly since the introduction of the national car test. This may not be causing joyriding but it is increasingly contributing to and facilitating it. My colleague, Deputy Naughten, mentioned cars being sold to youngsters for £50 or £60. However, this problem creates an unending supply of free cars to youngsters. These cars are often driven into private housing estates and left there for the taking. It is an almost irresistible invitation to potential joyriders.
It is incredible and it defies understanding that people can act in such a selfish manner. They have no reservations about littering other people's estates even though they have moved on to newer and better cars. In the past this problem only involved old cars. However, since the introduction of the test, it involves relatively new cars which are by no means clapped out old bangers. These cars still have the potential to speed and kill. It is only the start of this problem. If it is not stamped out now as more and newer cars become eligible for testing, it will become a greater problem.
Other methods of car disposal are available to people. For example, in the Dublin area, there is a free take away service. One only has to send the local authority the tax book and ask that a vehicle be removed. This service needs to be widely advertised. It should be part of this week's anti-litter campaign. Some local authorities outside the Dublin area charge for this service but that should be scrapped if the entire country is not to become littered with abandoned cars that are rusted or burned out in every scenic spot.
The sad factor is that the motor car is almost entirely recyclable. Almost uniquely for any product, a recycling infrastructure is in place for cars. An EU directive will be introduced shortly which will impose an end of life tax on cars so there is no reason to charge for this service now. The real problem is that if a car is legally parked and has its number plates but the owner does not request removal, there is no way to move it. We must address the fact that there is no legal way to move cars that are legally parked and still have their number plates. Enforcement has worked in other areas, particularly that which applies under the Control of Horses Act. The Bill, if we enact it and enforce its provisions, will be successful.
Acting Chairman
I understand Deputy Noel Ahern proposes to share time with Deputies Martin Brady, Conor Lenihan and O'Flynn. Is that agreed? Agreed.
If we do not pass the Bill after these contributions we will never pass it. I suppose the Deputies on the Government benches will come out in support of the Bill now but they will vote against it later this evening. Do they intend to bemoan the problem of joyriding before voting down the Bill?
Acting Chairman
Will Deputy Rabbitte refrain from making interruptions? He will have the opportunity to speak later.
Will Deputy Rabbitte have an opportunity to speak later?
Acting Chairman
Yes.
I congratulate the Deputy. I know he is a man of many talents but I never knew he was a mind reader.
I congratulate Deputy Broughan and those who assisted him in bringing forward the Bill, which may not be perfect in that it does not provide all the answers. The Minister stated that the legislation would not be technically feasible from a number of points of view and that it would not offer the perfect solution. The introduction of legislation is often seen as the ultimate solution when political will and decisiveness are often all that is required.
The Bill gives us the opportunity to discuss and focus on what is a very real problem. Passing the Bill may not help the Garda Síochána enforce the many laws at its disposal. The Minister provided details on the raft of legislation which is already in place. However, I accept that voting the Bill down in isolation is not the answer.
Hear, hear.
I was disappointed with the Department's response last night. That response was obviously theoretically and factually correct but it was rather simplistic and it did not appear to address the problems which obtain in Deputy Broughan's area and mine. To that extent, I express my disappointment with the official response to the Bill.
A number of weeks ago many Members used the opportunity provided by Fine Gael's Private Members' motion on the national car test to discuss the matters with which the Bill deals. I am disappointed the Department did not, during the intervening period, take on board Deputies' suggestions and take appropriate action. The Department of the Environment and Local Government, whether its traffic section, Traveller section, environmental section or NCT section, is responsible for dealing with many aspects of the problem of joyriding. Of course the Garda Síochána has a role to play, but a great deal of responsibility lies with authorities which come under the control of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. It is a pity the various sections of the Department could not come together during the six weeks since we debated the NCT to address this very real problem.
Perhaps a reshuffle is needed. The Government should promote the Minister of State, Deputy Dan Wallace.
I hope the various sections of the Department will get together to resolve this problem.
Many of the points the Minister made are valid and true, particularly those giving legal recognition to the term "joyriding". However, I was amused by his assertion that the Garda Síochána had stated that there are adequate legal provisions in place. That may be the case but the Garda cannot deal with the problem. Quite senior members of the force operating at local level have thrown their arms in the air in desperation.
There is a large Garda compound situated in my constituency but it is completely full. As soon as a space becomes available following the removal of a car for transport to Hammond Lane, it is immediately filled. The law needs to be amended because it is ridiculous that a person must keep an old banger for six weeks before they can get rid of it. The law should be changed so that if a car is under three years of age it should be kept for six weeks but if it is over eight or ten years of age it should be removed within three days. It is ludicrous that people are obliged to wait so long to dispose of these vehicles.
I accept that the Garda Síochána has a role to play in this area but the main responsibility lies with several sections within the Department of the Environment and Local Government. Joyriding is not a new problem, it has been with us for many years and it tends to happen in waves. The current wave is probably partly related to the booming economy and the fact that people are buying cars like Smarties. However, it has also been caused by the introduction of the NCT. It was wrong for the Department to introduce the NCT without considering the problems its implementation would create.
Children aged ten, 12 and 14 are buying old cars for £30 or £40, not exclusively but mainly from Travellers. Nobody is prepared to put a stop to this behaviour and it appears that the law applies to some of the Travellers to whom I refer. Every citizen is entitled to their rights and we should all respect the law. The law should, if necessary, be used against every citizen, regardless of identity.
I hope the Department will not adhere to the position outlined in last night's response. This is an enormous problem and I hope the Minister will listen to the Deputies whose constituencies are afflicted by this problem. I accept the Minister's advice that the Bill has a number of faults. However, that should not be the end of the matter because this problem must be addressed in a co-ordinated way.
In that case, will the Deputy vote in favour of the Bill and send a message to the Minister? Deputies Ahern and Brady could join forces with me and my colleague. We could call ourselves the "Northside Four".
I am tempted to do so but for other reasons I will not be doing so.
So my prediction was accurate. Deputy Ahern has made one of the best speeches in favour of the Bill to date.
I thank the Deputy, I will accept any credit that is on offer.
I hope that, following this, the various sections of the Department of the Environment and Local Government, in conjunction with the Garda, try to address this problem. Deputy Olivia Mitchell referred to the need for an advertising campaign. There is no doubt that many people are driving to halting sites and simply abandoning their cars. If people knew that local authorities provided a removal service or that they could drive their cars to Hammond Lane to have them demolished, they would do so. We can begin to address this problem by advertising services, providing further compounds for the Garda Síochána and amending the stupid law that obliges people to keep their old bangers for six weeks.
People in the settled community also deal in old cars.
I accept that. I said that this trade is mainly carried on by Travellers. The law must be applied and a great deal of the relevant legislation is the responsibility of the Department of the Environment and Local Government. I request that the relevant sections in that Department, in conjunction with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, grapple with this problem and try to find a solution.
It is odd but, increasingly, whether it be in connection with the national minimum wage or Government policy on Sunday trading or other issues, I find myself agreeing with Deputy Broughan more often than I disagree with him.
One of us is in the wrong party.
The Deputy has shown a great ability to tap into the popular feeling among the people in his constituency and the broader constituency that is Dublin. It is instructive to note the constituencies that those who are contributing to this debate represent. Present are two of my colleagues from my constituency of Dublin South-West and there are also representatives from Dublin North-East, Dublin North Central, Dublin North-West and Cork North Central. All the areas to which I refer have, in one way or other, been affected by the terrible problem of car theft. I use the term "car theft" deliberately because the word "joyriding" dignifies the activity under discussion.
Deputy Broughan has more friends on this side of the House than he might imagine. We are within an ace—
Another speech in favour of Deputy Broughan's Bill.
Deputy Ahern and I are within an ace of voting in support of this Bill. We would like to do so. Conceptually, the Bill is correct—
Why not accept it?
—and strikes at the heart of a problem which affects our constituencies and which all Members wish to see tackled. We want stronger powers to be given to the Garda and the introduction of mandatory sentences. We are seeking radical action from the Government on this issue. It seriously affects the most disadvantaged communities which we have the dubious privilege of serving. I use the word "dubious" because we would prefer if those levels of disadvantage were not there.
The Minister is correct to reject the Bill on the basis of its detail.
Mr. Hayes
That can be dealt with on Committee Stage.
However, I hope Members on all sides of the House, after voting down this Bill, will maintain the pressure on the Department and relevant agencies to ensure this issue is addressed in an appropriate manner. There should be mandatory sentences for people who engage in car theft and threaten the lives of others.
I welcome the overnight change of plan. Some of the heavier ministerial guns will come to the House later tonight to outline what they and their Departments are doing. That is a welcome move in response to the strong manner in which this issue was raised at our parliamentary party meeting earlier today. Deputy Ahern was among those who raised it.
Why not accept the Bill?
We accept the principles underlying the Bill but we beg to differ on the detail. As people say in relation to the vexed matters north of the Border, the devil is in the detail. It is the detail in the Bill that we question.
The level and adequacy of Garda activity in combating this problem and the existing law is widely questioned by the communities with whom we work. They wonder why there are not any responses and why the law is unable to deal with the problem. I do not criticise the Garda Síochána but there is a perception that its members do not respond to the calls from street level to address this issue.
The South Dublin County Council area offers an instructive example of the problem. In the six months to February 1999, there were 580 car theft incidents. In the six months to February 2000, there were 1,461 cases. That is a threefold increase over one year. That is unacceptable. It represents a car theft rate of up to 300 cars per month.
There are about four litter wardens and almost all their time is taken up with recovering stolen or burnt out cars. The burnt out car is a familiar media photograph, particularly in the local newspapers in my constituency. I am sure that is also true of the northside. It is an image that must be eliminated. It represents a stain on the communities, most of whose members are law abiding and hard working. It acts as a disincentive for people considering investing in or developing the areas and discourages new residents from moving into them. Finally, this type of car theft seriously endangers lives.
There has been much discussion of this issue recently but I am not convinced that the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, has moved far enough. I look forward to hearing his response because he has in the past advocated a policy of zero toler ance. He tells us it is still Government policy and I look forward to it being applied in this area.
Zero marks for zero tolerance.
In addition to concentrating on legal remedies and punishments to fit the crime, we must look at the deterrent factor and how we can invest in and develop the communities where this issue arises. We should also look at the diversion programmes which the gardaí already have in place. They require more investment.
Let us be honest about the problem. I will not admit to having been a joyrider in my youth but we got up to certain things that probably all young people get involved in.
Tell us more.
These things mainly happen when youngsters live in an estate which is either partially or badly completed. Where people are suffering from disadvantage, the problem is worse. Joyriding and stealing cars become a diversion in their own right. I will not do what Deputy Eoin Ryan did and admit to something which may cause me problems later on.
I would say the Deputy was a bit of a Bart Simpson in his time.
I was not nearly as destructive as Deputy Rabbitte in my Bart Simpson phase. I did not close down any factories.
Or open any.
I commend the county council in my constituency on trying to devote more resources from local government to this difficult issue which afflicts disadvantaged communities already suffering as a result of drug abuse and criminal anti-social activity.
Most Deputies would agree that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform needs to move further to deal with not just car theft and joyriding but with anti-social activity. It should be pointed out that there is also anti-social activity, such as people congregating around shopping centres at night, in the middle class areas of the constituency I serve. This activity indicates the need for a tougher and stronger Garda presence and a tougher response to crime.
These are crimes against the community. The response of the community is to lose its respect for law and order and to lose faith in the locality. When that happens the results can be catastrophic. There is a corresponding decrease in respect for the law and the Garda Síochána which leads to a decline in the area and the loss of investment and other opportunities.
This Bill is well meaning but one sided and incomplete. The upsurge in joyriding activity is causing great anger in affected communities, often the most disadvantaged communities.
People in my constituency have come to me about the problem. One of them gave me the authority to mention his name in this debate. He is Liam Burke who lives in Ard na Gréine, which would be regarded as a good community. His car was stolen three times in a three month period. His daughter bought a car which was then stolen. She replaced it but that car was stolen within two months. It is a serious problem.
Deputy Broughan is my constituency colleague and we work well together for the good of the community. I am surprised he is so out of touch with the depth of feeling about this problem in our constituency. I do not call it joyriding. There is nothing joyful about stealing cars.
Neither do I.
I am not saying the Deputy called it that. There is nothing joyful about stealing cars and devastating people, often young people who need their cars to get to work. They save hard for their cars and are paying the repayments. In some instances they pay up to £3,000 for insurance.
Insurance is another issue that must be tackled. As far as I am concerned, the insurance companies are operating a cartel and are turning decent young people into criminals. They are actually advocating that they drive uninsured cars. That is something we must look into. There is no doubt that they are operating a cartel. My daughter got a quote from an insurance company in Dublin last week. I told her to ring the company back later. When she did so she was told: "We cannot give you a quote". She asked why she was given one earlier. The manager said he would have to question that. When he did so he said, "the person who gave you that quote is a junior member of the staff who should not have given you a quote". That is very serious situation into which we must look.
I cannot support the measures Deputy Broughan outlined in the Bill because they are too lenient.
That is the best yet.
He proposed a mandatory sentence up to seven years. I have repeatedly advocated the introduction of a mandatory sentence – a minimum of five years for those causing loss of limb and loss of life, of which we have clear evidence. This Bill does not go far enough.
Will the Deputy vote for it?
We never settle for less.
This is not something with which we should be playing a political game. We are discussing a serious issue and it should not be a tossed around like a political football.
We drafted the Bill. The Deputy has to vote for or against it.
I have never seen Deputy Rabbitte vote.
Convicted so-called joyriders should be detained in boot camp regimes in locations like Spike Island. Joyriders are detained, brought to court and convicted but because of the revolving door, they are let out at Christmas and other times of the year. No serious attempt has been made by the Judiciary or anybody else and the issue is treated in a half-hearted way. When these people are let out, they rob again and cause mayhem in the community.
Who is the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform?
As Deputy Lenihan said, the perceived degree of complacency and Garda response to this leaves a lot to be desired. It is not treated as a serious crime and the response is, "So what, we got a complaint about a car." There are burned out cars all over my constituency. I get calls about burned out cars in football fields morning, noon and night. They are even using the car parks at shopping centres as race tracks.
We need a comprehensive action plan on this type of anti-social activity. There should be some support for disadvantaged communities. This brings us back to the Children Bill and parental control. Statistics show that the majority of people involved in stealing cars – I do not want to call it joyriding – are kids below 14 years of age. This happens in Foxhill and other areas, as Deputy Broughan knows well. Where is the parental control? The Children Bill is interlinked with this.
We need alternatives for disadvantaged youth. There is no doubt but that there are disadvantaged youths in many areas. For example, we need funds for stock car racing programmes to give them the means to break out of this cycle. That is very important. There are a number of stock car enthusiasts in my area who came to me with proposals which I gave to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. That is something at which we should look because it is an alternative. When one asks why they steal cars, they will say there is nothing for them to do and they like driving cars. This would give them an alternative. Any commendable approach would seek increased resources from central Government for community and recreational facilities in affected areas given the extremely large youth population in socially disadvantaged areas.
Communities are calling for action but, with all due respect to my colleague, Deputy Broughan, what is in this Bill is an inappropriate and insufficient response. There must be a deterrent. If somebody believes they can harass and terrorise a community, it is not good enough to say "up to five years". We should put these people away and should not leave it to the discretion of the Judiciary. There should be a mandatory sentence and people should know that if the steal my car or someone else's, they will be put away for at least ten years on Spike Island where there would be no comfort zone. There is a comfort zone at present. One of Deputy Broughan's colleagues in the Seanad, who is involved in prisoners' rights, defends these people. He says it is not right that they should be in prison because they only stole a car; he asks what is the big deal about that and says we should get them out of there. Deputy Broughan should get his act together.
How much time do I have?
Too much.
Acting Chairman
The Deputy has until 7.40 p.m.
I commend Deputy Broughan for bringing the matter formally before the House. I am glad we are debating this issue but I agree with my colleagues that there is no need for other legislation. Legislation is in place and it has to be enforced.
Deputy Conor Lenihan and Deputy Martin Brady should stay in the House for the remainder of the debate.
Acting Chairman
I am afraid the Chair has no role in that.
This is a subject about which I find it very hard to speak in a detached and clinical manner. In my constituency and in many others, this horrendous practice has affected many lives. I have seen instances of the havoc wreaked by joyriding on innocent third parties. I was deeply involved in one joyriding incident which shocked the community. The people in the area were devastated and shocked by the taking of two young lives by the mindless action of a so-called joyrider. These people should be called killer drivers, which is what they are. I cannot even use the word "joyrider" without feeling I am using a word which seems to imply that those who kill or maim people while driving stolen cars are bringing some form of joy to someone. They certainly do not bring it to the homes they destroy by their thoughtlessness and cruel actions. I doubt that even they themselves on reflection find any great joy in the pain they have inflicted on innocent victims and on the families who face a lifetime of grief and loss.
I have spoken to the parents of children who lost their loved ones shortly after the dreadful event and to their friends and neighbours in the intervening years. The parents' pain has not been alleviated by time. How can I speak dispassionately on this issue and listen to those who plead it is an impulsive and thoughtless act gone tragically wrong? How can I believe that the stealing and misuse of a person's car is not a deliberate, cruel and selfish act? What car owner deserves to have his or her car stolen? Who will replace an article for which the owner has saved so hard to purchase? Has anyone ever heard of a case in which the joyrider made retribution to the person he had robbed? How many learn a lesson from the dreadful havoc wrought when they snuff out a life? How can I listen to those who plead that the people involved come from a deprived background, as not all of them do? Some would allege that joyriders are the victims of society and state that their illegal and deadly activities are really not their responsibility. I do not subscribe to that line of logic. I am here to tell Members what joyriders have done to my constituents. They have sentenced parents, brothers, sisters, relations and friends to a lifetime of grief and loneliness.
There are many activities promoted and controlled by community gardaí in Cork. The role of the community garda should be supported and enhanced. We have had an outstanding service from those members of the force. Their guidance helps many young people who are not involved in community and sporting activities. In one part of the city, a garda, Garda O'Connell, has set up activities which involve many young people at risk in sport, community activities and interaction with the gardaí. This is supported by senior gardaí, community leaders and politicians. Community gardaí put in many of their off duty hours helping young people, particularly in disadvantaged areas. Their work is productive and is evidenced by the sharp fall in crime in Cork by 12% or 9% in the past 12 months.
Joyriders know no bounds. Joyriding is not confined to disadvantaged areas only; it is a nationwide problem. Those who participate in this deadly sport – I use that word without inverted commas – must be taught a lesson. Their punishment must fit the crime they commit. If one of those law breakers killed a person in a brawl, they would face a manslaughter or murder charge. Why should the punishment for using a car as a lethal weapon not be as severe? Those people put the lives of our people at risk every time they joyride. They do not carry insurance cover and can kill or maim members of the public. They put at risk the lives of the gardaí who must enforce the law by seeking to apprehend them. Let them face the full rigours of the law as it stands. The legislation is in place and the Minister outlined it last night. Let us continue to enforce it. I commend Deputy Broughan for bringing this matter before the House. On Friday next a new business park will be opened. It is not quite completed but last Sunday a number of people drove a car around the asphalt surfaces. An hour or so later the same car was found crashed. This problem is not confined to Cork, it is nationwide.
I commend the Deputy but we must enforce the legislation that is in place.
I wish to share my time with Deputies Bell, Upton and Shortall. Last night Deputy Broughan set out in a very comprehensive fashion the misery that is being inflicted on working class communities in urban Ireland. Deputy O'Flynn has done that just now in respect of Cork city. It is the ultimate in hypocrisy that he can make that kind of speech and come in here in an hour's time and vote down Deputy Broughan's Bill. I have rarely seen such a performance by Fianna Fáil.
That is not appropriate. The legislation is there already.
Fianna Fáil did not send in a Minister to deal with the matter. The feeble excuse given by the Minister last night that this matter would be more appropriately dealt with under the Sale of Goods Act is almost beyond belief. What did we hear then? Having heard that officially as the Government position it sent in four backbenchers tonight all of whom made speeches to varying degrees of validity in favour of Deputy Broughan's Bill then scurried out the door and will slip back later and vote against it. That is hypocrisy. Deputy Lenihan promised some of the heavy ministerial guns will be in later. It will make a change from the peashooters we have heard perform so far.
I take exception to that. I made a genuine contribution to the debate.
I did not interrupt the Deputy.
I do not believe there is room for further legislation.
I have very little time in which to make a contribution.
This is outrageous. The Deputy must be king of the tree at all times.
We are back in corncrake territory. I hear the Deputy but I do not know which side of the fence he is on.
I know what side of the fence the Deputy is on.
Deputy Noel Ahern is an expert at ducking, weaving and bringing both sides of the road with him but he came up with a new one tonight. He said he was very disappointed with the response of the Department last night. I thought this House was run on the basis of Ministers coming in and taking responsibility for policy and for their Departments, but now, according to Deputy Ahern, it is the Department that is responsible and he is very disappointed with it. That is some attempt at washing his hands.
Deputy Lenihan thinks "conceptually" the Bill is correct. What does that mean? Then he thinks we have a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who is committed to zero tolerance. The Minister apparently does not know the dimension of misery that is being inflicted on communities in urban Ireland. Zero tolerance? It is zero activity from this Minister, the man who made his name in cranking up a crime psychosis. Any given morning that one wakes up there is likely to be another fatal killing in this country or some serious criminal offence and there is no sign of the policy of zero tolerance.
I missed the Order of Business today because of a meeting in Killinarden in my constituency on joyriding. It lasted until lunch time and was quite apart from the Labour Party Bill. A number of concerned citizens came together because they were frightened by the element of brazenness and bullyboy tactics that has now stolen into car theft. They are not all company cars. Cars are being stolen out of driveways. Where householders stand up to the thieves they come back at night, some as young as ten years, and burn the cars in the driveway.
Deputy Ahern is right; it is probable that senior civil servants do not know anything about this side of urban living but they do not have to take responsibility. The responsibility is the Minister's and his response last night, for a Minister who should know as he represents Dublin North Central, was such that he ought to be ashamed. The other Deputies came in here tonight and read out scripts designed for the local newspapers because they believe people will not make out the difference on where they stand on the Bill. They gave us a heart rending account of joyriding but they will vote down the Bill.
Is that not what the Opposition did for the last hour and a half?
That will not get us anywhere. This problem must be dealt with. It reminds me of when my colleague, Deputy De Rossa, introduced the Bill on wandering horses. Many Members thought it very funny. However, it was not one bit funny and they learned why. We are in the middle of a wave of so-called joyriding which has been identified by my colleague, Deputy Broughan. He is not suggesting that his Bill is the be all and end all of tackling this problem. We know there is greater investment needed in these communities in terms of education, school attendance, upskilling, training opportunities and getting these youngsters back to work. Everything Deputy Coveney said last night is right.
The Bill is a modest measure. It is a beginning and after all the Fianna Fáil speeches tonight supporting the sentiment of the Bill, it will vote it down. We have not seen one Minister. Neither the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, nor the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, has any idea what this problem is about. Both have a legacy of shambles to show for their three years in office. For the man who promised us zero tolerance, people in my constituency are besieged in their homes because it is not safe to set foot outside. There is inadequate policing. Deputy Ahern dealt with that matter and I agree with him. There is no sign in the ministerial contribution to the debate so far that there is any appreciation of this problem on that side of the House. It is shameful.
Dr. Upton
I congratulate Deputy Broughan on bringing forward this Bill. He has shown remarkable resilience in pursuing an issue that, up to now, has neither received the publicity nor the attention it deserves. Like everyone who has spoken on the Bill so far, I object to the use of the term "joyriding". It is such a misnomer in relation to the consequences of this activity that it is a travesty to use the word. I understand that, for the purposes of the Bill, there was little choice but to continue to use this terminology because it is recognisable. However, the activity and its consequences are represented much more accurately by the inclusion of words such as "grief" and "death", as Deputy Broughan indicated yesterday.
I wish to acknowledge the presence in the Visitors' Gallery of some of my friends and colleagues in my constituency in Dublin South Central. Some of them are here because they are involved in community work where they are regularly exposed to the disharmony, destruction and grief caused by so-called joyriders. In one area where they work senior citizens have been forced to become prisoners in their flats. The elderly are virtually barricaded in. There are bollards surrounding the complex in an attempt to prevent cars driving through the grass and lawns surrounding the residences. The bollards are there of necessity to protect the inhabitants. Coincidentally, they also prevent emergency services getting through, the ambulance, doctor, fire brigade, are all excluded so the senior citizens are at risk in two different ways.
Another colleague of mine is here I regret to say because a member of his family died as a result of his car being hit by a so-called joyrider. He is hoping that as a result of the Bill he may be able to see something resembling justice for his family. The death of a young man who leaves a wife and four small children is a tragedy in any circumstances and that tragedy is compounded because it should never have happened. Here was a man going about his business, working hard, looking after his family and he died as a result of being hit by a stolen car. The young man who caused his death was given a five year jail sentence. Most likely it will be reduced to a token one year. The victim is dead. He has no chance to rebuild his life and his family will suffer on account of his death.
Yesterday in his reply to Deputy Broughan, the Minister for State provided many facts and figures on road safety. He told us how effective the Government's road safety strategy has been. Breath testing, wearing seat belts, engineering measures and so on were described at length. All these measures are to be welcomed but they have little or nothing to do with joyriding. So-called joyriding is a vitriolic type of anti-social behaviour prevalent in disadvantaged areas. It is carried out by people who have no regard for the law or for life, either their own or anyone else's. The paltry sentences which have been handed down to the perpetrators of these crimes are offensive to those who have been victims, directly or indirectly, of the joyriding menace. Clearly the sentences are not a deterrent to others to participate in the same type of behaviour.
The Minister referred to a specific accident reduction measure at known accident locations on the national network. Does he seriously believe when we speak of joyriding that routine measures for speed reduction have any relevance? These measures will simply present a further challenge to those who participate in this life-threatening activity. Joyriding is not concerned with the rules of the road, wearing seat belts or speeding. It is concerned with getting a buzz and with rebellion and is an invitation to challenge the system. It is concerned with recklessness, indifference and an expression of aggression and is not concerned with routine or responsibility. It is outside the conventional values to which the vast majority of citizens adhere.
What must be tackled are the underlying reasons young men – it is almost always young men – participate in this destructive, anti-social behaviour. It is concerned with disadvantage, lack of facilities and education and providing an environment where the negative and destructive attitudes that lead to joyriding can be overcome and replaced by positive and constructive patterns. Never before was there such opportunity for investment in those areas, for example, in educational and leisure time facilities, to deal with the underlying problem of disadvantage. It is time for the Government to face up to the fact that there is a need for a radical overhaul of the services and facilities for youths who are at risk. A positive climate must be fostered so that those who are marginalised and disadvantaged will be given the chance to have some positive and constructive life experiences.
There was a reference to Robert O'Connor of City Motor Sports who turned around the negative environment and attitude for a few young lads. In a controlled and safe environment he allowed them the chance to understand the mechanisms of a car, to drive a car safely and to have a say in how things are done. This project is a prototype which could be developed and expanded so that others might have a chance.
The Garda has a difficult task in attempting to curb joyriding. Attempts to track down a joyrider often end in disaster, and a failure to contain the offender can result in undermining the role of the Garda in a locality. To be effective, the Garda needs to be supported within the community and needs to be properly resourced. Controlling and reducing joyriding is made even more difficult by the ready availability of old cars which are accessible to anyone who wants to find one, and most of my colleagues who have spoken have addressed this issue. Cars which are no longer road worthy must be taken out of circulation and scrapped.
We need a range of effective policies and measures to tackle joyriding. The Bill sets out a few constructive and straightforward measures which would go some way towards alleviating the problem. Too many people have suffered and continue to suffer because of the delinquent, irresponsible and indifferent behaviour of certain individuals. It is not good enough to say the Bill is well intentioned but unworkable. What will it take to make it workable? Will it take more carnage, destruction and tragedy for those who have been affected? The Bill is a welcome step forward and I hope it is accepted by the House.
In the almost 20 years I have been a Member of the House I have not encountered a debate in Private Members' time during which so many people on all sides of the House spoke so favourably and in support of a Bill and yet intended to vote against it. I hope between now and the time the vote is taken they and the Minister will reconsider their stance. How can it be that everyone who has spoken supports the Bill and yet some of them intend to vote against it? It must be a record, and I congratulate Deputy Broughan that he has effectively succeeded in having everyone on all sides of the House speak in favour of his Bill, in spite of which the Govern ment parties will vote against it. I hope they change their minds between now and 8.30 p.m.
Lest anyone might get the impression that this is a Dublin phenomenon, while it may have begun in Dublin, it exists in Donegal, Louth, Monaghan and all towns, especially in Border areas, as much as it does in Cork, Limerick and elsewhere. It may have begun in Dublin, but we normally inherit the bad things which begin in the capital city and, unfortunately, joyriding is no exception. However, it is double-barrelled, so to speak. Not only do joyriders from Dublin go joyriding in our county, so too do those from Northern Ireland. Such people have two bites of the cherry because, not only can they illegally buy cheap cars or rob them in the South, they can also do likewise in Northern Ireland and cross the Border and cause the same carnage as happens in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and other cities throughout the country. We have a double problem in Border areas. Not only that, but drug dealers go there from Belfast and Dublin and some of them sell drugs to these so-called joyriders, so we must also endure that. That is why Border areas have the highest level of road deaths and carnage in the country. That is a fact and I am sure the Minister will acknowledge that.
What is the cost of the road carnage apart from the terrible situation of families who lose their loved ones because of these so-called joyriders? They are not joyriders; they are common criminals of the worst type. The illegal organisations, North and South, give people guns with which to go and kill other people. What is the difference between giving them an automatic weapon and giving them an automatic car for £20 or £30 with which to kill people? There is no difference except that, if they do it using guns, the crime is more serious than if they do it with a car. That makes no difference to the people or families who must bury their dead or who must wheel around those who are crippled or maimed for life as a result of the actions of these common criminals. They are not joyriders; they are common criminals who have created and will continue to create terrible grief in communities the length and breadth of Ireland.
I am sure my colleague, Deputy Broughan, would agree that it is no longer a Dublin problem but exists in every county and constituency. That is why we heard Deputies from all areas of the country who are members of different parties supporting the concept of the Bill. Nonetheless, some are not prepared to vote for it. Under parliamentary democracy as I have known it for the past 20 years, if a Private Member's Bill is presented on Second Stage, the Government and the Minister in charge of the relevant Department can introduce the necessary amendments to that Bill to strengthen it. Deputy Broughan did not say his Bill was perfect. No Bill is ever perfect. I have seen Bills having 100 to 200 amend ments made to them before they were finally passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. If everyone agrees with the concept of the Bill as initiated by my colleague, why can the Minister not propose amendments on Committee Stage? I am sure Deputy Broughan and the Labour Party would accept them, if they were reasonable,
Not since the foundation of the State has the motor industry been in a better condition. Motor industry representatives accept it and we read daily about it. We should encourage the industry to put some money back into this area if only to initiate programmes in schools, as outlined by Deputy Broughan, and to support programmes initiated by the Garda Síochána? The industry should make a contribution in the same way the banks contribute to the security given to the transport of their money.
The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, has been a member of a local authority, as I have been, and he knows someone must pay the bill.
Burnt out cars have to be dealt with in terms of manpower and finance. It is costing a huge amount of money to dump these cars. How much is it costing taxpayers to dispose of these weapons of destruction which are used by criminals who are prepared to kill and maim innocent people?
I wish to share my time with Deputy McDowell.
Acting Chairman
Is that agreed? Agreed.
The problem of joyriding and company cars is one of the most serious issues facing urban areas and one of the most common problems raised with public representatives at public meetings. This is particularly the case in recent months.
The problem mainly manifests itself in local authority estates where people are afraid to let children out at night for fear they will be mown down by one of the many cars travelling at speed through their estate. People in many parts of Dublin are afraid to invite visitors to their homes in case someone in a company car ploughs into the visitors' car. This is a frequent occurrence.
All Members have been requested by residents associations to provide additional traffic calming measures to tackle this widespread problem. The Minister of State's response last night seemed to indicate that there is little appreciation of the scale of the problem in urban areas. It is possible that senior officials in the Department do not know that this problem exists. In recent weeks I spoke to senior officials in two Dublin local authorities and was shocked that some of them did not know what the term "company car" meant. It is likely that senior officials in the Department never come across areas where there is a problem with company cars. They certainly do not live in these areas and they may never have to travel through them so they are not aware of the problem. However, public representatives from urban areas are only too familiar with this problem because our constituents are only too familiar with it and they are bringing it to our attention time and time again.
This is not just the case with Opposition Deputies. The Minister of State's backbenchers are saying the same thing. Government Deputies such as Deputy Noel Ahern from my constituency are dealing with the same problem on a daily basis. I plead with the Minister of State to believe us when we tell him that there is a very serious problem which needs to be tackled urgently.
The Minister of State's response to this Bill was extremely disappointing. He simply closed his mind to the fact that there may be a problem of which he is not aware and suggested that the problem does not exist.
That is not true.
It is in the Minister of State's speech.
That is what the Minister of State said in his speech. I hope the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, has a more open mind to this problem and that he gives the rest of us some credit for having genuine concerns about a very real problem which seriously affects many constituencies and urban communities.
The problem is twofold. The Waste Management Act is the legislation under which most cars are collected. At present, approximately 500 cars are picked up per month by Dublin Corporation. I am trying to get the Minister's attention.
I am listening.
In addition, about 1,200 are picked up by the gardaí in the Dublin area under section 41 of the Road Traffic Act. Both Acts are inadequate to deal with the scale of the problem. I am asking the Minister to consider the genuine points made by Members on both sides of the House before there is more carnage. There have already been serious incidents, some fatal, and others in which people have been hurt and maimed. Damage has been done and there is great fear in many urban communities. This is a very real and serious problem and I plead with the Minister to give it his urgent attention. He should at least accept the principles underlying the Bill. He can amend the Bill if he wishes but he should accept that there is a serious problem which needs to be tackled without delay.
It is only when one has direct personal experience of a problem like this that one appreciates the true depth and reality of what is called joyriding. A few months ago, a Labour Party activist who had been treasurer of my constituency party for many years was killed with his daughter in a joyriding accident. I was deeply affected by this accident as was everyone who knew the family. One had to see the hurt and the damage done to the family. There was a confused feeling of anger and a desire and a need to do something about this problem. There was also the need to know that others were going to do something about it and that the people responsible were going to be made amenable to the law.
If I presented a copy of the Minister of State's speech to that family I do not think they would be satisfied. I do not wish to comment on this individual case and I do not know who the individuals involved were. However, it is not sufficient to say that, because 15 year olds cannot get a driving licence, the current law is sufficient to deal with this issue. The law is not sufficient to deal with it.
We have stated that this Bill is an effort to deal with one net point – the disposal of cars by garages and others to underage individuals. However, it is an increasingly important point and the Bill is a valiant effort to deal with this one issue. I do not understand why the Minister cannot accept the Bill as a valiant effort so that we can improve it at a later stage if necessary.
We have to try to understand and remove the reasons young men take, buy or use cars effectively as weapons which, on occasion, kill. It is no coincidence that such people tend to come from local authority estates or areas which are disadvantaged or deprived. We have to deal with this issue and the Government has been slow to give the building of facilities in these areas the sort of priority required.
We also need to deal with this problem through the education system. We have to try and educate before the event and stop young men getting involved in this kind of activity. We have to educate them about cars and, if necessary, about the consequences of what they and their friends do. Frankly, we have to confront them with the evidence of the destruction caused by joyriding.
The issue of scrappage must also be dealt with. We have to be able to say that a car no longer exists and is not going to be used for purposes for which it was never intended, such as being used as a weapon. The notion of a death certificate for a car when it is finally consigned to scrappage is a positive idea on which we can build.
I was very disappointed by the tone of the Minister of State's reply to the Bill. I genuinely do not understand why the Minister could not take this on board and I hope some of my colleagues from the northside of Dublin on the Government side will, after tonight, prevail upon the Minister to look again at this issue and do something about it.
It is clear from this debate that the issue of joyriding, a term with which I disagree, is one of serious concern to everyone in the House. I do not agree that everyone who spoke supported the Bill, although the House is united in its opposition to the criminals who steal or buy cars to terrorise communities.
What is the difference?
Last night the flaws in the Bill were pointed out and the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government demonstrated that there is already legislation in place to deal with this issue.
The Government recognises that all possible resources must be targeted at this unacceptable and dangerous practice and is conscious that a strong signal must be sent to the perpetrators as well as to those people affected, that joyriding is not and will not be tolerated.
The issue of the disposal of cars at the end of their useful life was raised by Deputies in the course of the debate. In late 1998 my Department invited the Society of the Irish Motor Industry to submit proposals for a producer responsibility initiative in relation to scrapped cars which would take account of the objectives and targets outlined in the proposed EU directive on end of life vehicles. I will shortly respond to the SIMI on its initial proposals on an ELV management system for Ireland and will seek an early discussion to make progress in the area. It is my objective to secure agreement on an acceptable vehicle recovery scheme in the near future. In that context the point made by Deputy McDowell about "death certificates" for vehicles is being taken on board.
The issue of how local authority estate management can help deal with anti-social behaviour has also been raised. It is recognised that better management of public housing can make a significant contribution to tackling problems, including anti-social behaviour, in local authority housing estates and flat complexes. My Department, in conjunction with local authorities, has taken a number of steps and spent a considerable amount of money in these estates and we are making progress.
I do not believe Deputy Broughan would advise the House that the legislation he has presented is the panacea to this problem. That is to his credit. Measures are being undertaken to alleviate this problem, not least of which is increasing the number of gardaí, as we are progressively doing, to reach the target of 12,000 in the lifetime of this Government.
How many are leaving the force?
We are increasing the number of prison places, bringing into law the bail referendum, as passed by the Irish people in 1996, and bringing forward the juvenile justice legislation which was discussed in this House this afternoon.
I welcome the Pauline conversion of Deputy Rabbitte to the concept of zero tolerance. It is not so long ago that he could not see any problems through the rainbow tinted windows of a State Mercedes.
The Minister should be in the Abbey.
I was under the impression that Deputy Rabbitte had abandoned socialism for the cappuccino bars of Dublin 4 but to hear him tonight again speak of the working class, I may have been mistaken.
Such rubbish.
The reality is simple. When he was in Government he had the opportunity to put legislation in place, to increase the number of gardaí, to introduce the bail laws and to increase the number of prison places.
Change the record.
Instead of doing something about it, Deputy Rabbitte sat stoically, watched the problem develop and did absolutely nothing about it.
Address the Bill.
For our part, we have increased confidence in the criminal justice system. I am not saying for a moment that all the problems have been resolved—
Mr. Hayes
That is certainly true.
—but more measures have been taken in the past two and a half years than were taken in the previous decade. Not ever in the history of this State was the criminal justice system brought into more disrepute than it was under the rainbow Government.
Even the Leas-Cheann Comhairle must have become used to the arrogance and incompetence of this Administration. We have just seen a wonderful example of it from the southern region. Seldom, however, have we come across the hypocrisy we heard in the past hour. I listened to Deputies Conor Lenihan, O'Flynn, and the Minister and it was with disbelief that I read the speech made by the Minister of State, Deputy Dan Wallace, yesterday. No one who has been in this House for any length of time could believe the rubbish that civil servants, who do not even know of the existence of this problem, wrote for him. He parades himself as a democrat, as someone close the people. The speech he read last night was unbelievably insulting in its lack of content.
The existing laws are more stringent than anything the Opposition is proposing.
When the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, was on this side of the House, on the occasions he came forward with good ideas – and he did, his only problem was implementing them when he entered office – they were taken on board by the Government and legislated for, as were ideas from other parties. Why is it impossible that a brilliant idea put forward by Deputy Broughan, accepted by all concerned in the House, cannot be accepted in principle and then amended with all the wonderful expertise that exists in the Customs House and St. Stephen's Green? That is all we ask, that the Minister would buy into the idea and let the committee of the House do the rest of the work. Is that too much to ask? Is the Minister incapable of doing that? Does he not want to do it? Does he not know how to do it or is he too arrogant to accept that other people might be able to do it better than him?
I thank the leader of Labour Party, Deputy Quinn, and all the members of the Parliamentary Labour Party, for their strong support in raising the issue of joyriding through the Bill before us tonight. I also thank my Fine Gael colleagues for their valuable and forthright support.
While the issue primarily affects urban areas, the speeches of Deputies on all sides of the House highlighted a deep concern which is often neglected in the media and, so far, has failed to secure a serious response from this Government. The Government's careless neglect of the problem is a fair reflection of its uncaring ignorance of the growing social problems in the areas of greatest deprivation.
The negative "cannot be bothered" reactions of the Taoiseach and the Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Environment and Local Government to this simple but important Bill reflects their contempt for communities largely untouched by the booming economy, communities which are under siege from car and youth related crime. Let us hope their continued inaction on this serious problem does not come back to haunt them when another joyriding tragedy is brought to the attention of this House.
Deputies on all sides recognise the desperate effects of joyriding crime on the community. Like others who have listened to the debate, I found Deputy McDowell's recollection of the tragic victims of this plague to be very moving and poignant. The major efforts made by local residents and development bodies to raise the living standards and improve the physical environment of our most deprived urban communities have been hampered at every turn by the continual upsurge of joyriding and car related youth crime. A Fianna Fáil Deputy who spoke last night told me after the debate that following the car related mayhem in his constituency on St. Patrick' Day and last weekend, he and the community he tries to represent are at their wits end trying to cope with this problem. I invite him and his other urban Fianna Fáil colleagues who spoke tonight who may feel the same about this problem to vote for this Bill. It is not too late for the Minister to accept it.
While I have a warm regard for the Minister of State, Deputy Dan Wallace, I was disappointed last night that neither the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, nor the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, came into the House to respond to the Labour Party's presentation of this Bill. The Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, effectively reneged on a commitment he made to me before Christmas that he would seriously and carefully examine the provision of Government time to expedite legislation through the House to curb joyriding crime. I raised the issue of youth car related crime on behalf of the Labour Party on approximately 20 occasions with the Taoiseach, Deputy Ahern, and the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, in the 28th Dáil. While I asked for an adequate car scrappage scheme in terms of the idea of a car death certificate proposed by Mr. Conor Faughnan of the AA and for the type of legislation we are discussing, I accepted these measures on their own would not do enough to curb youth car related crime. I have, therefore, requested a comprehensive multi-agency approach to this problem along the lines of the local drug task forces comprising education, youth and community centre provision, staff resources, well supported local estate management, proper and sustained provision for our sports clubs and extra resources for the Garda Síochána who have battled, often heroically, with joyriding crime over the past decade.
The response to this Bill drafted for the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dan Wallace, last night was breathtaking in its vacuous negativity and ignorance. He rambled on about the Government's road safety strategy and its 20% target for 2002, blithely ignoring the imminent massive danger to families and children endured nightly by the people affected by joyriding crime. The authors of his speech in the Department of the Environment and Local Government would do well to take a reality check by visiting those areas on many afternoons to witness parents grabbing their children off the footpath and running inside the nearest garden for safety when the tyres of a robbed vehicle or company car screech around their suburban streets and open spaces.
This modest Bill seeks to provide for two new driving offences. Section 1 attempts to come to grips with the phenomenon of so-called company cars, cars given or sold very cheaply to youngsters who proceed to joyride them and then burn the vehicles often on amenity open spaces or very close to residents' homes. That section seeks to introduce severe penalties for unscrupulous dealers and owners who transfer these vehicles to children and teenagers. Rather than accept this simple provision, the Minister of State lamely spoke last night of legislation on the supply of goods, as if this crisis in urban estates was a mere matter of packaging or consumer law. In effect, he did not give us any credible reason section 1 could not have been accepted. His facile reasoning is unimaginative and factually incorrect. The Road Traffic Acts are primarily concerned with the safety of members of the public on the public roads. It is precisely because the Minister of State is concerned with the safe use of vehicles that he should be equally concerned with the manner of their supply. Cars supplied in an unregulated way may and do result in unsafe use. That is why the Road Traffic Act, 1968, at section 8 deals with the control of supply of vehicles. That section sets out all manner of matters the Minister is entitled to specify by way of regulation dealing with the supply of vehicles. Its primary thrust is to ensure that vehicles are supplied by dealers in a road worthy condition. "Supply" for the purposes of that section is interpreted nearly identically to the definition proposed in this Bill as including supply by way of sale, hire, loan or otherwise. Because of the seriousness which we attach to the supply of so-called company cars, we decided not to simply amend section 8 of the 1968 Act but to deal with the matter separately in this Bill.
Section 2 is directed against the ringleaders of joyriding and car related crime in our estates. Anyone who organises, directs or participates in taking a mechanically propelled vehicle without the consent of the owner for the purpose of that vehicle being driven in a dangerous manner in a public place shall be guilty of an offence. The Government's response was to argue that the practical enforcement of this section would be very difficult, but surely underlying that view is a reluctance to recognise and confront the crime of joyriding. It is the Labour Party's view that the issue is so serious and deadly that we should create in law the offence of joyriding. We anticipated the Minister of State's argument against section 2 regarding the intention to steal a car for the purpose of joyriding. That is why we propose in the section that an evidential presumption should be created. Once the facts establish unlawful taking, then we propose that it should be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, that the vehicle was stolen for the purpose of dangerous driving. Such a presumption, common enough throughout the criminal law, is designed to assist the prosecution of the case. Once primary facts are established the onus of proof is reversed and it becomes a matter for the defence to prove that an offence was not committed. The Minister of State failed to deal with this aspect of our proposal last night, which fully meets his reservations.
He did not make a convincing case last night for the effectiveness of the existing provisions and penalties relating to joyriding and car related crime. As the Labour Party spokesperson on social and community affairs, I make no apology for the tough penalties in section 3. It is laughable that a constituency colleague, Deputy Brady, said he cannot vote for the Bill because the penalties provided are not severe enough. It is remarkable that some urban Fianna Fáil Deputies who called for similar type of penalties in the local media will tonight vote against this measure. I hope this will be well remembered by our constituents.
I referred at length last night to the responsibility of the motor industry and to the powers that the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, has under section 29 of the Waste Management Act, 1996, which was steered through this House by my colleague, Deputy Howlin. Section 29 allows the Minister to introduce regulations for the safe disposal of any product for which there is no further use. As on so many issues affecting his brief, the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, seems to have been overwhelmed by events that he should have foreseen, especially with the introduction of the car test.
The Labour Party views this Bill as only one of a comprehensive range of initiatives which should be undertaken on a multi-agency basis throughout the districts affected by car and youth crime. I suggested last night that the county and city development boards might co-ordinate the efforts of local bodies such as the Northside Anti-Joyriding Task Force and the Finglas Crime Task Force. Among the most important elements of that approach are additional resources for education in deprived areas to engender an attitude of responsibility towards vehicles and the community perhaps along the lines of the successful Neilstown project. Given the genuine interest of many youths in cars and vehicle maintenance, about which a Fine Gael colleague spoke effectively last night, projects like the City Motor Sports of Mr. Robert O'Connor could be developed and replicated in many areas of Dublin, Cork and Limerick. In previous Dáil inter ventions on this issue, I pleaded with the Government to allocate decent resources to the youth service, local community and recreation centres and to local sports clubs. The contrast between the lavish ambition of the Taoiseach in relation to the proposed new national stadium and sports campus and the poverty of resources allocated to local sports projects points to amazing hypocrisy. If the Taoiseach and the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Deputy McDaid, get their way, the children of the north and west sides of Dublin will still be changing under a hedge for football or athletics events while he and Mr. McManus will be watching professional sport in corporate boxes nearby.
Last night I saluted the courage of the Garda Síochána who have wrestled with and often risked their lives in combating car crime over nearly two decades. I witnessed their work on many occasions. I again warmly note the contribution of Assistant Commissioner, Jim McHugh, and his team of officers and call for additional staff and other resources to be allocated to the affected districts. We still need a dedicated anti-joyriding unit to be overseen by senior Garda members. Valiant officials of local authorities have also battled with the menace of car related crime for many years, but we need a more pro-active programme of estate management in our local authority estates with personnel available, if necessary, in the late evening or early morning hours when estates are traumatised by sprees of joyriding crime.
The comprehensive approach I briefly outlined combined with this Labour Party Bill would bring this dreadful problem of joyriding and youth car related crime under control. As Deputy Rabbitte noted earlier, there is a precedent in this House in relation to the plague of urban horses, which for several years were a terrible nuisance to many people. When the rainbow Government at last legislated to deal with this problem in the Control of Horses Bill, a strong signal was sent from this House to the troublesome horse owners, the local authorities and, above all, the suffering residents in our most deprived estates that this state of affairs would not longer be tolerated. As several Deputies said last night, we need to send another similar signal to these areas in relation to youth car related crime. The arrogant refusal of this Government to do this by its decision not to accept this Labour Party Bill tells our disadvantaged urban communities that the Government does not care about their suffering and the fourth pillar proposals put forward in the new national programme only pay lip service to the problem. Let any further tragedies and mayhem as a result of joyriding crimes be on the heads of the Minister, the Taoiseach and the Government.
Question put.
Tá
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Ahearn, Theresa.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Farrelly, John.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan. |
Kenny, Enda.Lowry, Michael.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.Yates, Ivan. |
Níl
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Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy. |
Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V. |
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett and Stagg; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Power.
Question declared lost.