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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 May 2000

Vol. 520 No. 1

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 2000: [ Seanad ] : Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Last week I expressed my disappointment at the manner in which the Minister has introduced this Bill. While many sections of the Bill are welcome, I felt it important that the issue of alcohol consumption be put in a social context and I regret that the Minister has not done so. If we are to make a serious and genuine attempt to tackle the problems associated with the misuse of alcohol an analysis must be made of where society is coming from in its attitudes to alcohol and how to change some of the more negative attitudes.

There has been a traditional problem with alcohol, based partly on the prohibitionist attitudes of some which gave alcohol a mystique it should not have had. It would be in all our interests if alcohol was seen as a more normal aspect of life and something we could enjoy in moderation at different times of the day, particularly when people are having a meal. It should be seen simply as a part of our social life. Instead, for many historical reasons, alcohol is now at the very centre of Irish social life. Many people would complain that it is very difficult to have a social life that does not involve alcohol. One of the main reasons for this is the very powerful advertising of alcohol, on which Deputy McGahon spoke very well last week. It is very difficult to avoid being bombarded with the promotion of alcohol, whether it is on television – every advertising slot has a couple of advertisements for alcohol – or when one is driving around Dublin, where two in every three billboards advertise alcohol. It is constantly in our lives and exerts pressure on the young and vulnerable.

Alcohol is portrayed as a solution to problems and in that regard the current Guinness advertisement is particularly reprehensible. There is also a close association of alcohol with having a good time. That centrality of alcohol causes damage because young people feel they cannot function or socialise without consuming significant amounts of alcohol. A strong case has to be made for at least restricting the advertising of alcohol, if not banning it completely. It is certainly out of control and we must curb the powerful promotion of alcohol.

There is also a serious problem with sponsorship. It is virtually impossible to have a major musical or sporting event which does not involve one of the drinks companies. We must consider whether that is appropriate. Take as an example the sponsorship undertaken by Guinness. The hurling championship is now known as the Guinness hurling championship. This insidious and, in my view, effective form of advertising is pervasive.

We should question and examine the effects of this advertising in glamourising the use of alcohol and encouraging young people who attend or watch these events, whether musical or sporting, to begin drinking alcohol. It undoubtedly has a subconscious impact on them. There is a close association between alcohol and practically every activity in Irish society. I hope the Minister will comment on that; I regret that he has not done so to date. The Labour Party will pursue this matter further in terms of imposing strict curbs on the advertising and promotion of alcohol, particularly the sponsorship by drinks companies of events that are targeted at young people.

I question the approach taken in this Bill and whether the extension of opening hours by one hour is the right option. There is a major hang-up in this country, probably for traditional reasons, about the place of alcohol in society and the phenomenon of the last drinking hour before closing time. I admit I am a culprit in this regard. One goes down to the local pub for the last half hour or hour for a couple of drinks. That is the time when the atmosphere is best in the pub, when it is busy and the crowd is at its biggest. Many people come into the pub at that time.

What effect will the proposed opening hours have on that? The main effect will probably be that most people will go to their local pub an hour later. It will mean coming home and going to bed an hour later and having an hour less sleep. Most customers do not want that. People who go to their local for a social drink during the week or at the weekend do not necessarily want an extra hour's drinking. They are annoyed about its implications for work the next day.

One can argue that people have free choice. However, if one is in the pub two hours before closing time the atmosphere is not the same as an hour before closing time. I am not sure that extending opening hours by one hour will mean that people will have a more mature approach and decide to drink for a particular hour in the evening. The Minister should deregulate the hours and leave pubs to find the level to suit their local market. In that respect, we must distinguish between pubs in city centre locations or holiday resorts and those in residential areas. By and large, the latter are for people who fancy going to the pub for one or two pints at night before they go to bed. I believe there is no demand in those areas for pubs to be open longer.

The neighbours of pubs in residential areas do not want them opening later. The noise and trouble that can occur at closing time will simply be postponed for an hour or hour and a half. That is not in anybody's interest. The proposed new hours will pose a huge problem for the management of pubs in terms of recruiting staff. In the last couple of weeks I spoke to a number of publicans and barmen about this. They do not know what they will do. They already find it difficult to staff their premises because it is a tough job involving long hours. It is simply not on to have people working from 10.30 in the morning until after 1 o'clock the following morning, and that does not include cleaning up time. Publicans will be unable to staff pubs through the day and night and will be obliged to introduce two shifts each day. That will prove impossible financially for many of them. I question the advisability of dealing with opening hours in this manner. A distinction should have been made between pubs in commercial areas, city centres and holiday resorts and pubs in residential areas.

What is the current status of the national alcohol policy? We have heard little about it in the last three years. Much work went into developing the policy and it contained many worthy aspirations. Little has been said about it by the Ministers who have responsibility for it. It is time to revisit the policy and account for the progress or otherwise in implementing its recommendations. Where necessary, it should be updated. There is a need for that as a counterbalance to the extension of opening hours.

The proposed opening hours are exceptionally confusing and convoluted. A little card will have to be drafted which people will have to carry with them to help them remember the opening hours. There are different hours for Sundays, Wednesdays, Fridays and the nights before bank holidays. It is extremely complicated. Why did the Minister not seek to streamline the opening hours to assist the consumer? What is the reason for making a distinction between different days of the week?

I appeal to the Minister to look again at the provision of the extra opening hour, particularly in the context of pubs in residential areas. There is no demand for it from customers, publicans, barmen or neighbours of pubs. I believe it will prove problematic in its implementation.

I welcome the provision of a uniform time of 7.30 a.m. for on-licence mixed trading premises and the fact that they can sell alcohol from 8 a.m. It is a good development. However, what is the position of a mixed trading premises selling alcohol on a Sunday morning? There are many such premises which are anxious to open early on Sunday morning to sell the newspapers as well as wine. It is perfectly sensible to allow people who are buying their newspapers on Sunday to buy a bottle of wine for their lunch. It is crazy that these shops cannot sell wine until 12.30 p.m. on Sundays. How are shopkeepers to organise their shops if on Sundays they are obliged to cover up or hide the alcohol in their premises until a certain time? I sought the advice of some gardaí on this but they do not know what the position will be in relation to the enforcement of that section.

It is proposed to allow restaurants which sell wine to also sell beer. That is a welcome and sensible development. A problem arises, however, in that there is no equal treatment of shops licensed to sell wine. Why has the provision permitting restaurants to sell beer not been extended to these shops? Why are they not permitted to sell beer? This issue will be contested strongly in the courts. It was brought to Members' attention by a number of people in the industry. Deputy Healy-Rae will have a good deal to say about it given the position of his son, Michael Healy-Rae, who would consider himself disadvantaged in this regard. Has the Attorney General given an opinion on this provision and whether it is anti-competitive? I look forward to hearing the Minister's views in this regard.

I will devote the rest of my time to the issue of under age drinking. The Minister has failed to grasp the seriousness of this problem. It affects all parts of the country. It was initially a social problem in urban areas but it now seems that every constituency is affected by the phenomenon of young people drinking. This is not just young people having a couple of beers or trying a flagon of cider, it is young people going out to get drunk as their main pastime. Is the Minister examining this problem or is any research being done in the Department to discover why this is the case?

I am a member of two drugs task forces in my constituency and the general view now is that the problem of under age drinking is surpassing the drugs problem in local communities. There is the phenomenon of children from 11 or 12 years of age going out several nights a week and taking red bull and vodka, which seems to be the drink of choice, and drinking until they are literally out of their heads drunk. This is very often followed with an ecstasy tablet. It is a massive indictment of society that young people are choosing to do this. We must investigate why they want to escape reality and need such a massive buzz. To some extent, this is the down side of the Celtic tiger, but it also indicates a failure on the part of the authorities to adequately protect children. Very often they need to be protected from themselves. A down side of the Celtic tiger is that so many young teenagers are working. What protection is there for them? No one under 18 years of age is supposed to work after 10 p.m., yet many young people under the age of 18 work as lounge girls and lounge boys in pubs at night. The situation is bad now but I am concerned that it will be exacerbated as a result of the new opening hours. I urge the Minister to ensure there is a counterbalancing measure put in place, that is, more inspectors from the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt's, Department to carry out regular inspections, because the authorities have been very remiss in this regard.

The growth in under age drinking is resulting in shocking statistics in absenteeism from school. I do not know if the Minister is aware of how bad this problem is. I recently spoke to school principals in my constituency and I was amazed to discover that there is an absentee rate of between 30% and 35% every Monday across a number of schools in the area. It is a regular occurrence that one-third of teenagers do not attend school on Monday morning because of, by and large, the effects of week-end drinking. First, this is a result of their working late into the night in pubs and, second, they have all this additional money in their pockets and they can think of nothing better to do in many cases than spend it on drink. The authorities have, by and large, turned a blind eye to date to this problem which needs urgent attention. There is a serious lack of enforcement of the existing laws and I welcome the strengthening of the provisions under the new legislation.

Why has the Minister not promoted the national age card? That should have been promoted strongly. Ideally most young people should be given these cards before the new legislation is enacted and then the Minister could come down hard on the publicans. Given that the new legislation is imminent, why has the Minister not yet launched and promoted the national age card? I ask him to do so as soon as possible so that people can prepare for the enactment of the new legislation.

Will the Minister do something about raising awareness among parents regarding their responsibilities and the dangers for their children of widespread alcohol abuse? Many parents have been remiss in this regard but they need the support of the State in taking a firm stand with their young people. It is very difficult for parents to take a firm stand if their children can point to their neighbours who are going to the local pub, being served under age without any great difficulty and working in local pubs until 12.30 a.m. and 1 a.m. Therefore, why should parents try to swim against the tide, so to speak? Many parents do so bravely and successfully but it is very difficult for them. They need the support of the State in helping to protect their children which the State has not given them up to now.

Will the Minister consider an amendment I will table? This is an effort to clamp down more effectively on publicans who sell drink to under age people for drinking in public. Off-licences should be required to print the name of the shop on their bags. That would be of great assistance to the Garda in tracing from where drink sold to gangs of young people emanated. Drink is sold to gangs of young people who consume it on green spaces and in many cases cause absolute havoc in their local community. Many areas, particularly areas with elderly populations, are simply under siege from gangs of drinking youths. This is a nightly nightmare for many people in my constituency and throughout the country. The proposal was put to me by a number of gardaí that off-licences should be obliged to display the name of their shop on bags and this would assist the authorities in tracing the source of much of the alcohol consumed on the street.

There is also a need to introduce draft by-laws for local authorities to cover drinking in public places. This has been dealt with in an ad hoc basis in recent years and there have been legal difficulties with local authorities. Some direction should come from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I am aware that many local authorities would welcome draft by-laws.

On our attitude as a society to alcohol and the effect it is having on young people, the question must be raised about the place of alcohol in third level colleges. We are inclined to think that alcohol abuse is a phenomenon which is common among working class children. This is not the case. The problem crosses all classes and one would need to have just a cursory knowledge of social activities within third level colleges to know that the drinks industry sponsors heavily every activity and society in our universities. This is wrong and should be prohibited. I ask the Minister to acquaint himself with the issue. During freshers' week in the universities every society invites the new students, many of whom are just 16 and 17 years of age, to come along to drinks which are available in abundance and provided free of charge by the drinks industry. This is an appalling message to be sending to young people in their first few days in university. This resembles the way in which the banks target third level students. The drinks industry targets third level students on the basis that if they can get them drinking early, whether Guinness, Budweiser or whatever, they will stick with them for life. Sending out the message that we are incapable of enjoying ourselves without large amounts of alcohol being involved is causing great damage to young people. I ask the Minister to pay attention to this issue.

I reiterate my support for the new measures being introduced in relation to breaches of the legislation by publicans selling alcohol to under age people. The Minister should not water down this proposal. We need a strong deterrent because attitudes to young people and what is acceptable have become very lax. For too long there has been very little difficulty for anyone over the age of 14 or 15 being served in a pub or off-licence. We need to clamp down and change this entire culture so that publicans and owners of off-licences will be terrified of the consequences of selling alcohol to young people. The Minister has got the measures right and I appeal to him not to give way to pressure.

I am concerned about the measure allowing young people to work in pubs as lounge boys and lounge girls. Will he come back with specific answers on how this tallies with the Protection of Young Persons Act? I also ask the Minister to give consideration to the establishment of a special Garda unit to tackle the problem of under age drinking and to ensure strict enforcement of the new laws. This social problem is of such magnitude that a special unit is necessary to examine it, look at trends and ensure strict enforcement of the legislation across all divisions.

I recognise the submission made by the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association which includes a number of very worthwhile proposals. I was asked to make reference to the submission by the leader of our parliamentary party, Deputy Penrose, who is a strong supporter of the association. It might be said that the PTAA is of another time, but it has adapted very well to modern circumstances and is now a strong lobbying voice counteracting the pressure and muscle of the drinks industry. It is important to recognise that the board of the PTAA expressed serious concern about the possible negative effects of extending the hours of drinking in pubs, hotels and clubs and suggested changes should be permitted on a trial basis during which an impact study should be carried out measuring the personal, medical, domestic, economic and social effects of such extensions. I earnestly ask the Minister to agree to this proposal as this is a new departure and there is a serious problem. The proposals by the Minister to extend opening hours could quite conceivably exacerbate the problem of alcohol abuse. For that reason I ask the Minister to put in place systems to monitor the impact of the new opening hours. I know the Minister is establishing a commission and intends returning to this.

I strongly support the sound proposal by the PTAA that health warnings be put on bottles and cans containing alcoholic drinks. Health warnings on cigarette packs made people stop and think and we should do the same in relation to alcohol, which is potentially just as damaging.

I fully endorse the proposal made by the PTAA that the drinks industry and those licensed to sell alcoholic liquor should take their proportionate responsibility for the serious personal, domestic and social consequences of drinking to excess. Too often we look at this from an economic point of view and see the great success with plenty of jobs, but behind that there is a very sad and harrowing story about the effect drink is having on many lives and families. I am not satisfied the Minister has struck a sufficient balance between both sides of the argument. Most importantly, he did not indicate in his opening remarks that he has an appreciation of the scale and reality of the current problem of under-age drinking. Many counter-balancing measures are required to put the Bill in context and to ensure it does not further exacerbate the problem. I look forward to Committee Stage when we will table a number of amendments.

I support fully the measures being introduced by the Minister who has gone a long way to tackling many issues in relation to our licensing laws and I commend him on the manner in which he has done so. He has had the courage to tackle an issue which has been fudged by many previous Ministers. He has proposed that a commission be established to examine the granting of licences and has encouraged it to come forward with relevant proposals.

The Bill has been eagerly anticipated and generally well received. Certain misgivings have been expressed by organisations representing publicans, but they have given a broad welcome to most aspects of this long awaited legislation. I compliment the Minister on his extensive consultations with the trade before presenting the Bill. He has also taken the view of the general public into account.

I have certain reservations regarding aspects of the Bill which I will discuss later. It will make sweeping and extensive changes in licensing Acts dating back to the 1830s and to the registration of clubs legislation dating to the early 1900s. It will introduce the biggest changes made in licensing laws since the 1960s. Within the next month or so pub law will have been dramatically altered. There will be a dramatic liberalisation of opening hours, changes in respect of pubs, off-licences, night clubs and restaurants and an easing in the conditions imposed for the granting of bar licences. A very much tougher approach will be taken towards publicans who serve under-age drinkers, a change which is long overdue.

The long awaited changes in the law relating to the hours during which it is legal to sell intoxicating products in bars and clubs are now before us. There is a tightening up of the law in relation to under age drinking and stronger penalties will be imposed when the law is broken. A new system is being introduced for licensing premises which have not previously been licensed. The Bill also covers the scope of licences granted to racecourses and greyhound racetracks and incorporates certain other changes.

The Bill is long overdue. Its contents have been influenced by the report of the sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights of 18 June 1998 of which I was a member. It made 78 recommendations to the Minister and I am delighted he has taken many of them on board. The interim study on the liquor licensing laws, published by the Competition Authority in September 1998, was also considered and seminars were held which were co-sponsored by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Dublin Institute of Technology. These addressed matters relevant to the legislation and the knowledge gained from the sessions has had a major bearing on the new laws, with a wide variety of viewpoints having a crucial impact on the provisions being proposed.

Detailed observations have been made by a diversity of groups and individuals such as the Vintners' Federation of Ireland, Mandate, Bord Fáilte, the hotels federation, the Wine and Spirit Association, IMRO, the Irish Dance and Entertainment Industry and chambers of commerce. There has been a major input from the Garda Síochána, the Law Society, the Bar Council, the Road Safety Association, Mothers Against Drink Driving and others concerned with the legal aspects of the Bill. In effect we have had detailed submissions from all the interested parties, the general public, the law enforcement bodies and professional bodies. No shade of opinion has been ignored and I compliment the Minister on such a wide-ranging consultation process which has helped produce a Bill which will pass safely through the House.

All the views expressed have been listened to and many have been incorporated in the Bill. The extension of opening hours was inevitable. European law indicates the need for amended laws here. The licensed trade has demanded longer opening hours for a long time while the consumer has been looking for extended opening hours for many years. There has been a major change in social circumstances over the past decades. For example, people increasingly work flexi-time or shifts and find they have more free time. People have more disposable income and tend to socialise until later. These trends have influenced the legislation before us. The holy hour on Sundays has been the subject of public criticism for many years and the proposal to abolish it is timely. Closing time on Sunday night will remain unchanged, something I support as a very wise move to ensure people can get up for work on Monday morning and that we do not have absenteeism from schools or anywhere else. I understand why there is no demand for a change in this regard.

Do Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday mornings not matter?

The later closing time of 12.30 a.m. on the eve of all public holidays will be welcomed. The new closing times of 11.30 p.m. all year round on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays and 12.30 a.m. on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays reflect the wide diversity of views on this aspect of the licensing laws. They have broad support.

There is broad support for uniform opening hours for on-licence and off-licence premises and the new relaxed weekday trading hours. The area of special exemptions is being widened and simplified. This is welcome. One aspect of the old laws – the mandatory availability of a meal to qualify for an exemption – is being abolished and not before time. How many times has the legislation been ignored and bypassed by the serving of a token meal to customers by those who have availed of an exemption? It is common practice. I am glad owners of premises will not now have to serve meals to qualify for exemptions. All licensed premises will now be able to apply for such exemptions as the restriction of qualification to hotels and restaurants is being lifted.

The granting of new licences is being simplified. A licence may be granted anywhere in the State in substitution for an old one subject to conditions. This is welcome. Restricted licences may be converted to full licences subject to conditions. Most restricted licences are six day licences or early closing licences. Under section 16 these may be upgraded to ordinary seven day licences on payment of a fee of £2,500 to the Revenue Commissioners. This is also welcome. At last count there were over 130 such licences. It was a shame that the publicans concerned could not open seven days.

Section 5 deals with changes to the law on special exemptions granted by the courts. They allow for the sale of intoxicating liquor after normal closing times on special occasions and remove the condition that exemptions be granted only to hotels or restaurants. They also remove restrictions on the granting of a special exemption on Sundays.

Section 6 provides for an extension of permitted hours in relation to the serving of alcohol with meals in hotels or restaurants. The same will apply to clubs registered under the Registration of Clubs Act. Drinking-up time for a period of 30 minutes will be allowed after such special exemptions.

I welcome the increased penalties in relation to under age drinking, a problem that we have had to address in Cork city because of its side effects. In 1996 I embarked on a campaign to ban on-street drinking, the need for which stemmed from the indiscriminate selling of alcohol to under age drinkers by certain – by which I mean very few – off-licensed and licensed premises. I was horrified to see youngsters of the tender age of 14 years or less drinking alcohol on public streets. It had become commonplace in the city centre. Something had to be done to tackle what was a very serious social problem.

I conducted major research, as part of which I examined the laws in place in Northern Ireland and Scotland to tackle on-street drinking by those over the age of 18 years. The public order Act deals with those under the age of 18 years. I was fortunate to gain the full support of my colleagues on Cork Corporation and the complete co-operation of the city manager and his staff. The Garda Síochána gave me and my colleagues the benefit of their invaluable advice and total commitment during the period in which we promoted the new by-laws and have been of great help ever since. The new by-laws were introduced on 1 November 1998. A copy of the report produced in that year is available in the Oireachtas Library. They are currently being revised.

Everybody in the city shared my concerns in relation to under age drinking in all its social aspects. They were also concerned at the ease with which young people were able to ask older persons to purchase alcohol for them from off-licensed premises which they drank on city streets, in housing estates and at the gable end of houses. The practice in Cork is referred to as gatting, which was often followed by a visit to the disco, leaving many of our youth on the streets at a very late hour in an intoxicated condition.

I compliment the Garda Síochána in Cork city on its enforcement of the by-laws. Chief superintendent Adrian Culligan, superintendent Martin Shannon who worked with us on the committee and superintendent Kieran McGann have worked very hard to ensure they are enforced. In many instances the £25 on-the-spot fine has been imposed. There are almost 300 prosecutions pending in the local courts against those who did not pay the fine. Since the by-laws were introduced on 1 November 1998, 531 21-day notices have been issued and 203 have paid the £25 fine. The remainder are before the courts which have the power to impose fines of up to £500. The average fine is about £70, although fines of £100 have been imposed. Of the 531 people concerned, 58 are under the age of 18 while 83 are over the age of 25. I will give a copy of the statistics to the Minister for his information. While one would need a garda to detect every person who is offending in the city, we are doing our best to get people to comply and there has certainly been an improvement.

I fully understand and relate to the Minister's concern. I note that the penalties include the temporary closing of premises and the abolition of the reasonable belief defence in relation to the sale of alcohol to under age persons. Publicans are worried about this aspect of the Bill. They are of the view that it imposes harsh penalties on publicans and does not punish young persons who know that they are below the legal age, some of whom may produce false identity cards or passes. Is there an appropriate penalty for so doing? I am advised that they can be prosecuted under the 1998 Act. Very high fines should be imposed on under age drinkers given that they are aware that they are breaking the law. They should not be allowed to do so with impunity.

Those who produce false identity cards are guilty of a further serious transgression. In this day and age it is possible with the aid of modern technology to produce identity cards which appear to be genuine. They are literally undetectable from genuine identity cards. How can publicans detect and deal with this fraud? Many publicans favour the introduction of a standard identity card – a national identity card – for persons under the age of 25. Can this be done? What about the person who does not drink? Would he or she have to carry an identity card? Would this be legal or constitutional? Publicans are of the view that this section should be incorporated in the Bill, but am I right in thinking that a national identity card may be introduced under regulations introduced in April 1999?

Only a very small minority of publicans sell alcohol to underage persons. The vast majority have nothing to fear from the Bill. There is confusion, however, about the provisions under which a premises may be closed for up to one week. Will the onus be on the publican? What will happen in a case where a publican is happy that a person is over the legal age only to discover that he or she was wrong in making that assumption? Should publicans take the view that they should not serve those without a card – no card, no drink? Publicans have expressed the view that the seven day mandatory penalty is too harsh. Will the Minister clarify whether the penalty is seven days or from one hour to seven days? There is confusion over this issue.

Parents are concerned about the fact that children of 14, 15 and 16 years of age are drinking. A Southern Health Board report was recently cited in a newspaper which indicated that children as young as nine years of age are drinking. This is dangerous. We have all seen the drinking which goes on when junior certificate results are announced. Will the Minister indicate whether judges will have discretion with regard to the mandatory closure of a public house? Some legal opinion has suggested that, by virtue of the manner in which the Bill is drafted, a temporary closure may have the effect of lapsing the licence, requiring an application to be made to the courts to reactivate the licence. These issues are confusing publicans and I would ask the Minister to clarify them. We do not want to penalise publicans who are obeying the law and doing their best to carry on their business. We want new licensing laws which protect publicans and customers and ensure that those under age do not obtain alcohol.

Publicans have also expressed concern about the issuing of 15 authorised event orders in a 12 month period to racecourses or greyhound tracks. They want this defined as 15 single days because an order given to one of the above groups could be used to cover a three day meeting. If this was the case, orders would give permission for up to 45 exemptions. Publicans are seeking an assurance that this will not happen and I would welcome the Minister's comments on this issue.

The same circumstances could arise during a trade fair and I would appreciate clarification of this matter so that we can allay those fears. Publicans also wish the Bill to stipulate that they be allowed the 12 area exemption orders and that the days can be taken singularly rather than in blocks of three. Under the Bill as drafted, three of the days must be taken on each area exemption order, even if there is only a need for one or two days.

Major disquiet has been expressed about the transfer of licences and there is concern that rural areas will be denuded of licences under the Bill. Serious reservations have been expressed about the transferring of licences from family sized pubs to other pubs. There is no definition in the Bill which would ensure that a licence went to a similar sized pub. Under the Bill as drafted, the licence could be transferred to one of the new superpubs, with consequent financial implications for owners of traditional pubs which would be unable to compete with the new breed of licensed premises. Some of the new pubs are up to 10,000 to 15,000 sq. ft. in contrast to many traditional pubs which are 1,000 sq. ft. or less. I understand the fears of those who earn a living in the current environment but who will be unable to compete with the supermarket-type competition of the massive new bars which are becoming a feature of the scene. There is a cap on the size of supermarkets, and publicans believe there should also be a cap on the size of new licensed premises. If not, many family run public houses will go out of business. Publicans are concerned that the Bill is a charter for developers and speculators. I am not sure whether the Minister has discretion in this area or whether it is a matter for planners. However, he should examine the possibility of ensuring that licences are transferred to similar sized premises.

I compliment the Minister on the Bill and look forward to his reply.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Sheehan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

If the trade descriptions Act applied to Ministers selling their wares in this House, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, would have com mitted a serious offence last Thursday. On that occasion he suggested the Bill was a lot of things which it is not. The Minister used words such as "wide-ranging" and "progressive" and claimed the Bill "does away with decades-old restrictive legislation". He also talked about clarifying licensing laws which are "labyrinthine in their complexity" and claimed to have "interpreted the public mood correctly". He has done none of these things.

This is not a bad Bill in so far as it goes, but the problem is it does not go far enough. The only good parts of the Bill are those which get rid of some of the nonsense in current legislation but the innovations in the Bill are of more doubtful value. No one has suggested to me that having three different closing times in the week is a good idea. It is ludicrous to have one closing time for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, another for Thursday, Friday and Saturday and a third for Sunday. Earlier closing on Sunday is justified on the grounds that people have to get up for work on Monday, yet they also have to get up for work on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Many people also have to get up for work on Saturday. The only explanation for three different closing times is the Government could not make up its mind on what it wished to do and has made a mess of it. It is a nonsense to have three different closing times in the week.

I hope that some day a Minister for Justice will do the right thing and reduce the number of different kinds of licences available. I know how difficult it is to achieve this objective. I did a deal with the vintners in 1986 but the Bill was not completed by the time of the election in 1987. The vintners then came back to the next Minister and unpicked the deal I had done with them and off we went again. We still have a ridiculous plethora of licences.

I would welcome a Bill which repealed all previous Intoxicating Liquor Acts; provided for one type of licence for the sale of alcohol for consumption on premises, whether public houses, restaurants, clubs or whatever; provided for one type of licence for off-sales from any kind of premises; contained a coherent set of rules, in so far as they are needed, for night-clubs, discos and similar premises; and put an end to the nonsensical approach under which, up to now, the only way the total number of public licences in the country could go was down, because to create a new licence one had to extinguish two old ones. The Minister has put the brakes on that and we will now have a situation where the number can only remain the same. This is a little less ideological but it is nonsensical given that the population is increasing.

Some people are concerned about the consequences of any new measure on the value of their businesses, yet they maintain and defend a situation in which the number of businesses can be reduced but cannot be increased. These people need to make up their minds about what they want. Do they want to be able to do business or do they want an asset with a substantial value? They can have one or the other, but not both. Somewhere in the middle, the interests of ordinary people who like to have a drink need to be considered. I wish to offer some personal advice which may or may not be taken. Health warnings on cans or bottles will have the same effect as those on cigarette packets – nil.

I agree with Deputy Jim Higgins who pointed out that the Bill merely tinkers around with closing and opening hours, dates, transfers of licences and so on. The Minister is setting up a commission on licensing. I will make a virtue of necessity by saying that I hope the commission will be given the required remit to carry out a fundamental modernisation of the law. I have to say, with regret, that it is making a virtue of necessity because the institution of that commission is another example of the long-fingering of simple basic but contentious issues that has become one of the hallmarks of the Government.

The Bill admits some parts of the current law are daft. The Minister spoke about the apparent conflict between public dance licences and special exemption orders. He said the difference is that this could give rise to a situation where a licensed premises with an exemption order to 2.30 a.m. may have to end the dancing before the end of the exemption. He said that would not make sense. How very perceptive of him. What did he do about it? He went on to say the solution is provided in section 5, that where a special exemption order is in force, the dance licence will be deemed to be a licence, which will permit dancing for a period beyond the period of a special exemption. It will be deemed to be a licence and the people concerned can deem themselves to be allowed to continue dancing for as long as they are allowed to continue drinking. Could he not have made a simple straightforward provision that people can be permitted to do anything as long as the premises remains open and anything that is legal in the premises can be done up to the time that it has to close, instead of introducing another nonsense to solve a nonsense? What genius thought up the provision that a dance licence will be deemed to be a licence, etc.? The Minister talked about labyrinthine complexity of the law. I do not know what labyrinthine mind thought up that solution of deeming a dance licence to be a licence. It can be compared to the jokes told about economists, who assume they have the answer.

Another admission of the stupidity of the existing law was recognised by the Minister when he said we will no longer require a premises with a special restaurant licence to have a waiting area not exceeding 20% of the floor area of the dining area. I am delighted that requirement has been removed. The Minister's predecessor, who put it into law and fought in the ditches for it, should not have put it there.

Another provision of existing law being repealed, which also should not have been inserted, is that which forbade a supermarket with an off-licence to have a self-service configuration for its drinks section because it was thought that people would go berserk buying drink in supermarkets if they could get it self-service. It is a tribute to the Minister and his predecessors that they had the good sense not to enforce that requirement. It was so patently absurd it could not have been given effect and I am delighted it has been removed.

The law has not got to grips with serving intoxicating liquor in clubs. The Minister reminded us that under existing law visitors to a club may be supplied with liquor only on the invitation and in the company of a club member and the visitor's name and address must be kept in a book showing the date of each visit. I am sure the Minister, like me, has been offered a drink and accepted it in a club of which he was not a member. I bet my bottom dollar his name, address and the date of the visit do not appear in a book in a club. I would say those names and addresses are as rare as hens' teeth. The Minister is not doing anything about that. That is a nonsense section. It is honoured only in the breach, not in the observance.

The Minister will sort out the problem associated with serving intoxicating liquor in clubs by making a new provision about visiting teams. I do not know why he talked about teams as the Bill refers to visiting groups. What is a group? Is it a team? Does it include the team's panel, its trainers, boot-cleaners, groundsmen and linesmen? Who is included? Are the spouses, partners, friends, sons and daughters of members of a team included? Who is included in the term "visiting groups"? Under the Bill, visiting groups can be supplied with liquor at the request and in the presence of an official of the club. That will not sort out the problem of drinking in clubs. The Minister has compounded the confusion even more by talking about teams.

I am delighted to discover that I will stop being a criminal in another way. I congratulate the Minister on having dug out this one. He reminded us that the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1924, requires all sales of alcohol in an unlicensed premises to be for ready cash. Members who have written a cheque to pay for a round of drinks or for drinks for an evening have committed an offence.

What if one used a Visa card?

I am delighted that requirement has been removed. Between now and Committee Stage I would like him to examine if there are any similar infringements waiting to trap the unwary who, after all, only want to have a drink. They might break the law if they use a Laser card.

My colleague, Deputy Jim Higgins, argued for a single, streamlined and, by implication, dedicated body to look after licensing. The Minister told us that the courts will take account of the fitness of an applicant, the unfitness or inconvenience of a new premises, their unsuitability for the needs of persons residing in the neighbourhood, whether a locality is sufficiently served by a particular form of licensed outlet and so on. Why should we assume the courts have any special wisdom or knowledge in these matters? Judges know the law. We do not appoint judges to the Bench to make judgments on the suitability of persons or premises or on how well or badly an area is served by pubs. Judges do not have any special insight into the kind of qualitative questions of social and economic practices involved in making licences. If the commission on licensing does anything worthwhile, it will put in place a new system for granting licences for as long as we have licences, as we have avoided the question of the basic justification for a licensing system for a long time.

It has been brought to my attention that some local authorities take the law into their own hands. Under certain provisions they can limit the number of licences in a town or forbid the granting of licences to new applicants. Can they do that under existing law? Representations have been made to me in respect of a number of cases that they do that. Also, abolishing the defence of reasonable grounds in relation to serving drink to under age persons in the absence of a mandatory national provision for identity cards is unreasonable.

This Bill, introduced by the Minister, is one of the greatest jokes of all time. He must be completely out of touch with the rank and file of the general community on the changes needed to update the rules appertaining to drinking hours operated by licensed premises. What Minister in his sane senses would dream of introducing a three-tiered closing time system for the licensed trade? It is proposed to introduce a closing time of 11 p.m. on Sundays, 11.30 p.m. on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays and 12 midnight closing time on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays. Publicans will need a stopwatch to remind themselves of the day of the week and the time.

If the Deputy does not know what day it is, I cannot help him.

The Minister should have enough experience to realise that one specified closing time of 12 midnight with 30 minutes drinking up time should apply seven days a week.

It is evident this legislation is doomed to failure and will be severely criticised by those engaged in the licensing trade. Is it fit and proper to request visitors to this country to adhere to a rule that last orders on a Sunday will be taken at 11 p.m. and customers will be asked to finish up their drinks and leave a premises by 11.30 p.m.? I need not remind the Minister, because he should be conversant with the situation, that it will be criticised in all tourist seaside resorts such as Schull. The Minister should be aware of the position in Schull where he frequently visits his in-laws. He should have known about this three-tier system.

Is the Minister aware that £1,000 million is paid by the drinks industry in duties and VAT each year to the Exchequer? Is he aware that 52,300 people are employed full time and a further 23,000 are employed part time in the industry? Is he aware that an additional 3,000 jobs in agriculture are solely dependent on the drinks industry for purchasing crops such as malting barley etc? Is he aware that the drinks industry utilises 80% of Ireland's malted barley, 12% of our sugar production and 2% of our milk production? Some 88% of pubs throughout the country have carried out renovations to the tune of £200 million over the past five years. Is the Minister aware that 90% of public houses are family run businesses? Labour accounts for 60% of the average publican's running costs and 69% of pubs have an annual turnover of less than £150,000 – only 1% of pubs have an annual turnover in excess of £1 million.

Does the Deputy think that is good or bad?

Some 60% of pubs are located in small towns and villages with a population of fewer than 10,000 people. Some 90% provide some form of entertainment, including live shows, TV, music, darts, snooker etc. and 15% provide specific tourist entertainment. Some 85.8% of customers visit the pubs after 9 p.m. each night of the week.

The Irish consumer wants later licensing hours. The lifestyle has changed and people go out later in the evening. Customers want to stay in their local pub and enjoy a few hours socialising. They do not want to leave the pub and go to a night club where they will pay significantly more for drinks. There are no night clubs in Schull, where the Minister's wife comes from, or in Golleen, Ballydehob or other areas. These people must be catered for also.

Of the five million visitors to Ireland last year, nearly all spent some time in an Irish pub. Compared to the extended hours tourists spend in the pubs of their own countries, they are baffled at our hours of trading. Irish people travel abroad regularly for work and holidays. They believe the trading hours here are outdated and restrictive. The current laws are based on those enacted in 1927 and do not reflect the vast changes in society and social habits. They do not allow people to take responsibility for their own lives and make mature decisions. Irish licensing laws will have to be revised to bring them on a par with European licensing laws.

If, under the Bill, restaurants which have Bord Fáilte certificates can sell beer as well as wine, why is the same privilege not extended to the family supermarket which has a similar wine licence? Why did the Minister not include spirits as well as beer and wine to be made available in restaurants? If the Minister went for a meal and was thirsty he might need a hot whiskey, but under the Bill it would be illegal for those restaurants to serve him a hot whiskey. That is discriminatory and bad planning.

On under age drinking, Deputy O'Flynn lectured on drinking outside licensed premises. The Minister is aware that at every licensed premises in Schull during the summer people drink on the streets due to a lack of accommodation in the premises. The same applies in Crookhaven, Bantry, Killarney and all over the country. I hope when Deputy Healy-Rea comes in to speak on behalf of the people and publicans of South Kerry he will be realistic and will support the Fine Gael motion when the time comes.

I am happy to have an opportunity to contribute to the Second Stage debate on the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 2000. I was pleased to hear Deputy Dukes, a former Minister for Justice, speak about the inaction, the lack of real action and the lack of real change in the Bill. Given that he has left the House he cannot inform me now whether he introduced any changes when he had the opportunity to do so.

I declare an interest in that I enjoy a drink, usually in moderation. That will cover my declaration of interest in relation to this Bill. Publication of the Bill is long awaited. Recently I have been in the company of people who said it would never appear, that it would be too controversial for any Minister to take on. It was said that the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, would not have the guts to do what others had put on the long finger. What Deputy Sheehan said about a lack of consultation is pub talk. So far as I understand, every person involved in the drinks industry was consulted and a consensus was reached. They were all given the opportunity to express their views and have been listened to. It is with great admiration that these same people look on the Minister.

This is an area in which it is difficult to please everyone. The Minister has taken on board a number of wide-ranging opinions and points of view and has delivered this new, comprehensive package. It will be, and is already, seen as a milestone for the licensing laws and their modernisation. In his address to the Seanad, the Minister said that, given that almost everyone has an interest in the topic, there will no doubt be publicans, restaurateurs, licence holders, drinkers and non-drinkers who will either find the Bill too relaxed or too strict. I believe he has taken a balanced approach in the legislation and, with the other measures such as the commission on licensing, it will ensure that the process of review and change continues to evolve.

The Bill significantly increases the permitted trading hours. The distinction between summer and winter time will be abolished and premises will be permitted to remain open from 10.30 a.m. to 11.30 p.m. on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, from 10.30 a.m. to 12.30 a.m. on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays and from 12.30 p.m. to 11 p.m. on Sundays. The Sunday closing time between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. is long out of date and will be abolished under the Bill. There is no change to the closing time on Christmas Day and Good Friday when there will be no permitted opening hours. I welcome that. Publicans and their families deserve to have those two days for themselves.

In many areas the Bill will bring a legal reality to what occurs, for right or wrong, in practice. In some urban areas it will probably cause concern as people exit onto the streets from premises at a later hour. For others the hour change will not be enough as they strive for all night opening for some adults who may wish to arrive home after their children instead of before their children go out. It abolishes key barriers to entry into the licensed trade with the implementation of the single licensing clause. The abolition of the population clause will assist areas which are deemed to have too few pubs. In my area it will add significant value to rural licences and in that respect it is very welcome.

The Bill abolishes prohibitions on special exemptions and increases the time to 2.30 a.m. up to which premises may open on foot of special exemptions. It abolishes the obligation to provide a meal for a special exemption. This will release many existing premises from legally having to do something which they have not been doing. Restricted licences are to be converted to full publican licences, subject to disposal conditions. This will allow the small number of six day licences to fade out, making the new full licence status all the more valuable. I know a small number of people who will be very happy with that aspect of the Bill.

Restaurants will now be able to serve beer with meals. This makes sense and should be expanded into a full service option. Many good meals are finished with an Irish coffee by locals and tourists alike.

On-licence and off-licence outlets engaged in mixed trading will be permitted to sell alcohol from 8.00 a.m. on weekdays. This will make alcohol readily accessible to all. This is both a good and a bad thing, depending on how available it proves to be to young people, a point on which I will expand later.

Racecourses and greyhound tracks are to be licensed for authorised events that occur on non-racing days. This will greatly enhance the viability of many of these facilities which are reliant on a very poor ratio of racing to non-racing days. Perhaps this is the time for me to promote, both to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and to the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, the concept of a race track for Donegal which could avail of these new licensing laws, because Donegal is badly under-served particularly by horse-racing courses. Perhaps the Ministers would look at that issue.

There is to be a relaxation of the restrictions on the use of registered club premises. There will be an extension in the trading hour regime which will apply to registered clubs.

The final two important items are the aforementioned establishment of the commission on licensing. It will comprise Departments, representatives of the trade, representatives of consumers and other interests. Its remit will include continuing the process of fundamental change of the law in this area and, what I consider to be the most important element, focusing on the issue of underage drinking. With the removal of the "reasonable grounds" defence comes a penalty of the closure of a premises, whether an on-licence or an off-licence, for specific periods for offenders. I am glad all premises that sell alcohol are being brought under this provision. The drinks industry finds this aspect particularly controversial. However, I urge the Minister to hold firm on it.

The licensing trade is an industry which employs thousands of people and is a major economic and commercial activity for the nation. Ireland abroad is synonymous with Guinness, Bushmills, Baileys and so on. The Irish have a world-wide reputation for their social skills and, dare I say it, their capacity for drinking. While this can be endearing to some, it can and does hide a very serious problem of alcohol abuse. Abuse is seen in terms not only of the decreasing age of average adult alcoholism but also in terms of a significant difficulty with under age drinking in most towns and villages. It is vital that the changes in these laws do not become a licence to increase these problems in continuing abuse of the law but that the provisions of this Bill, once it has gone through the rigours of Committee and Report Stages, are rigorously enforced. In this respect, I am glad the Minister has already stated that he will raise this matter with the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána.

The majority of young people in Ireland are good, fun loving and carefree individuals. A minority tend to attract negative publicity in the press, and as a result all young people are tarred with the one brush, which they do not deserve. Similarly, the majority of publicans and licensees are responsible people who bear the common good in mind. Here again it is a minority, who exploit young people and people who have a problem with alcohol merely to increase their profits, that makes the headlines. Nevertheless, social and health-related alcohol problems are too often brushed under the carpet. This is particularly worrying when one considers the incidence of alcoholism and the ever-decreasing age at which people with alcoholism are now reporting.

A recent report in a Derry journal stated that the majority of attendances at Altnagelvin accident and emergency department after hours are young people who have sustained injuries while under the influence of alcohol or who have been involved in alcohol-related assaults. Alcohol also features in many of the hospital's overdose cases involving young people. It is felt by consultants who work in accident and emergency departments in Derry that the youth culture revolves around drinking to the extent that they drink until they cannot stand up. The consultant gastro enterologist has said that time after time many young people present with alcohol poisoning. Often they are aggressive to both medical staff and other patients. Dr. Frank O'Connor pointed to the fact that besides the acute effects of alcohol on their behaviour and level of consciousness, there is often damage to the stomach from dangerous haemorrhaging. There is always a degree of youthful high spirits, but this seems to be more than that. Dr. O'Connor added that this type of habitual abuse leads, inevitably, to severe damage to the liver and pancreas and that his hospital has even seen several deaths as a result of alcohol abuse in young men in recent years due to liver failure from alcohol damage. These comments arose from a national report which revealed that hospitals had seen a 17% increase in teenage admissions due to alcohol abuse. I would be interested to know whether such a survey has been undertaken in this jurisdiction and, if so, what the results were.

Meanwhile, I would add my support to Dr. O'Connor's call for a concerted programme of public education to try to change what he describes as the senseless and dangerous culture of heavy drinking among young people. In Inishowen, approximately three years ago, a study was undertaken into the use of drugs in the peninsula. This was carried out in co-operation with secondary schools, the Garda Síochána and the health board. The results were startling in relation to drugs and in relation to the most common drug which is usually described separately, alcohol. I am rather disappointed at the level of follow-up that has occurred since. Opportunities are being lost to bring pop or sports personalities or others for whom young people have an affinity into classrooms at a national level to outline the importance of a healthy lifestyle and to give the positive message that an idol can give to teenagers at a time when they are so prone to having idols.

Recently, Mikey Graham of Boyzone was on the Marian Finucane show to express his concern at the way the media had portrayed a recent interview with him. He had advocated the use of cannabis for medicinal purposes. He felt he had been made out to be a junkie because of his comments, although he stated that he felt that alcohol was the biggest and most underestimated scourge in Irish life. Such people, locally and nationally, could act as role models for the youth. Given the number of children who listen closely to, and emulate the stars, we are under-utilising those who consciously wish to be a positive role model for their supporters.

I trust that each health board area will consider this suggestion and organise, even on a pilot basis, a scheme which would bring the message of success without drink into the classroom. As it is, one would think one cannot have fun or be successful without drink. Even the local authorities should have a role. The vocational education committees, the health boards, vintners, medical practitioners and voluntary groups are all represented in any council grouping. Perhaps an SPC for social development with an element of role modelling might be a good idea. Perhaps the Minister would take up this with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. I would like to hear his reaction to these ideas.

One reason I continue to speak on the issue of under age drinking, here in the House and at local level, is that it needs to be highlighted. It needs to be brought out into the open and addressed. I spoke in the House in March on specific major incidents that occurred in my area. Numerous minor incidents occur on a weekly basis all over the country. I have stressed the need for community fora on the topic. At present there is still a reluctance to tackle the problem head on. I am glad that as a result of raising the major incidents in my area we now have an assurance that the bus companies and the Garda Síochána will interact and co-operate more in the future. This a very positive step. By raising the issue we have secured a police van for the peninsula, a long overdue requirement which is very welcome. I trust the Minister will respond to my other concerns on supplying basic equipment, which I recently raised with him personally and in the House.

In raising the issue we awaken an awareness in our Border regions of the need for cross-Border co-operation in the context of the need for gardaí and for co-ordination of the legislative framework. This is necessary in the context of the social reality of the proximity of Derry as a shopping location for many Donegal people and the reality of Donegal as a social location for many of the people of Derry. Curbs on the availability of alcohol for underage people must be co-ordinated between Donegal and Derry. In the context of the Executive in the North being reformed, I ask the Minister to take up with the appropriate Minister in the North the issue of co-ordinating an approach to the accessibility of alcohol, because it impinges on Donegal if it is freely available in Derry and vice versa.

This issue will not and cannot be resolved by one individual or one sector of society. Until people accept that there is a problem, there will not be a real effort to work through the difficulties. Under age drinking must be tackled by parents, teachers and the general community, working with the Garda Síochána and other State agencies, including the health boards.The tendency is to blame the other party rather than accept we all have a role in dealing with the effects of affluence on our young people. We examined the issue of cigarette advertising in the Committee on Health and Children. There is a move to ban such advertising. In almost every TV soap the pub is the centre of activity. We see the glorification of drink in advertisements and it is also tied into many sporting events. What is the position with regard to advertising?

A culture takes time to develop but once estab lished is difficult to break. It is important that where small problems exist action is taken before a major problem develops. In some towns the number of young people who openly flout the law may be as low as three or four but if they are not challenged that number increases as peer pressure kicks in and the message of tolerance is put out. Alongside this tolerance there may be a number of minor incidents of vandalism, for example, litter, broken glass and empty bottles and cans, which has implications for the local public and tourists alike, and other forms of anti-social behaviour. Over a short period this can escalate to major incidents of disorder.

Up to now the legal anomaly of "reasonable grounds" made it almost impossible for the Garda to obtain successful convictions against those selling drink to minors. I am glad the Minister has stated that defence is to be removed in response to requests from the Garda, parents' groups, youth organisations and others and that this tough provision will, when the law is enacted, be followed "by the most extensive and determined crackdown ever on the sale of alcohol to minors in all areas of the State". Those who take their responsibilities seriously have nothing to fear by the removal of this defence.

I have listened to those who would like to see the mandatory introduction of an ID card. This should be considered seriously. I recently tabled a question to the Minister on this issue. While there was an uptake of 423 cards in Donegal, which is a higher ratio than many other counties, there is no doubt that with the co-operation of parents, students, gardaí and licence holders, students could be encouraged to use the ID and accept with good grace that they will be asked for it in licensed premises. It should be issued free of charge on the presentation of proof of age at a Garda station. It would be much better to develop one acceptable ID card rather than open up the possibility of having counterfeit IDs. When one examines the detail of the uptake and looks at the Minister's county where only seven cards have been sought, the issue of payment for ID cards should be reconsidered. An ID should be given to every individual at birth which could be used for the purposes of PRSI, social welfare benefits, and so on. It would be a smart card and would contain the person's details including proof of age. The number of people who have taken up cards in Mayo is 637, the number in Dublin is 648, in Galway it is 582 and in Cork it is 563. In Tipperary, the number is 851. If there was not a £5 charge the uptake would be greater. A young person between the ages of 16 and 18 can get a free card to prove his or her age for the purposes of travelling on Bus Éireann. If it can be done for that purpose, surely it should be done in this case.

A big factor is that a significant number of adults are prepared to buy alcohol for minors. This occurs not only in pubs but in off-licences. I am glad the threat of closure extends to off-licences. There is need for the onus of responsibility to be placed on such adults. Is there a pen alty under this or the Children's Bill for such offending adults? Should supermarkets be allowed to sell beer bearing in mind that it is a popular commodity with both nationals and visitors, that wine is already sold there and that those caught serving any alcohol to minors will be treated in the same way as fully licensed premises? I would appreciate the Minister's views on that.

The Minister should persist with enforcement. Garda visibility is very important. I have been told not to try to have bye-laws introduced as they are impossible to enforce. The Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Deputy McDaid, could help by giving us plenty of sporting facilities so that, instead of going to pubs, we could offer an alternative to young people. There are many other issues I would like to raise but time does not permit me. I appreciate the great effort the Minister has made and I wish him and the Bill well in its passage through the House.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Deenihan.

I have mixed feelings about the legislation. From a commercial aspect, in the area of licensing we are making at best very minor changes and as regards the three different versions of closing time we are going in reverse. Much more must be done through this legislation and by the Minister for Health and Children to deal with excessive and under age drinking.

I was interested in the comments of Deputy Keaveney who served with me on the Committee on Health and Children. She proposed, and I supported her, that that committee should examine in detail the issue of under age drinking. It is an acute problem and is experienced not only in large urban areas but in every small town and village. Alcohol abuse stems from a mystique that has been built up around alcohol and the drinks industry through the years. I wonder if our relatively restrictive regime of pub licensing and closing hours add to rather than help solve the problem. In other countries in Europe there is a more liberal regime of pub licensing and there is not the same bravado and mystique surrounding the drinks industry and alcohol consumption. The problem of excessive drinking, alcoholism and under age drinking in is not as acute in those countries. All our efforts through the years to regulate and bring discipline into alcohol consumption have added to rather than solved the problem.

I speak as almost a non-drinker if there is such a thing, in politics we tend to stretch our terminology. Any politician who holds weekly clinics and attends constituency meetings will be in a pub almost every night and can see the problems at first hand. What the Minister is doing as regards under age drinking is a step in the right direction. While I welcome his proposals, much more needs to be done to tackle the culture of under age and excessive drinking. Many people hold the idea that without excessive drinking life cannot be enjoyed. That simplistic and very wrong argument must be knocked on the head with the same degree of advertising power, revenue and resources as is used to promote the sale of alcohol.

Yesterday the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, indicated he proposed to deal with the problem of tobacco by prohibiting advertising, sponsorship and so on. Something similar must be done in respect of alcohol. The statistics speak for themselves. Sadly, the number of people suffering as a direct consequence of alcohol abuse is growing. Notwithstanding that, the Minister has got the question of closing hours entirely wrong. The fact that we will now have three different closing times in a week is bizarre and would be amusing except that it will cause problems. I am sure the Minister has presented a rational explanation but I can see no sense in having three closing times. Some people have said that it will make us the laughing stock of Europe and, while we can live with that, it will cause genuine problems for tourists as well as publicans. The Minister should re-examine the matter. I have not read in detail the report of the all-party committee, but I am quite sure it would not have made such a recommendation. I cannot see where the recommendation could have arisen. We have difficulty in operating the current two-tiered closing hours structure, but the new proposal, involving three closing times, is a step too far. I hope the Minister will be able to step back from it.

The Minister's ideas in the Bill concerning the extension of licensing represent but a minor step in the right direction. During the debate in committee, something more dramatic was suggested than has been introduced. The previous system, whereby it was impossible to obtain a new licence in large urban centres, needed to be addressed. I concede the Minister has made an improvement in that regard, but the monopoly brought about in our licensing system needs to be addressed also because it is not dealt with in the Bill. In large urban centres a pub licence is literally a licence to print money. Revenue from licensed premises in smaller towns and villages is not comparable.

In the coming months and years we will have to examine seriously the possibility of further extending the licensing system. I am amazed that no court has yet been asked to adjudicate on the legality of the licensing system. I find it difficult to explain to people who argue that the biggest drapery, grocery or supermarket can be opened with planning permission and no licence is required, yet we are sticking to a 1920s or 1930s approach to pub licensing. The Minister has made a small change which will be of benefit to people who want to transfer licences from smaller centres to larger towns. I welcome that but the debate on extending the licensing system has yet to be addressed fully by the Minister and his officials. A volume of assistance is available to the Minister arising from the report of the all- party committee and he should consider it seriously.

One or two issues have been brought to my attention by various interest groups in my constituency. I congratulate the Minister on removing the Sunday ban on occasional licences, which has been welcomed generally. I have received quite a number of representations on that matter over the past 12 months. I welcome the mature decision to end the holy hour on Sunday, which was not being observed in the vast majority of licensed premises. There is little point in having a law in force if it is not being observed.

I have received a presentation from the Cork GAA clubs' lobby group, as I am sure all my colleagues have. The Cork GAA clubs are concerned about the legislation which they feel is a retrograde step. They are requesting that clubs should be allowed to hold local events in various licensed premises, as well as being allowed to advertise such events in the local media and serve intoxicating liquor at them. They also want the regulations governing admission to club premises to be relaxed. I read in a national newspaper today that this matter has been brought to the attention of the Taoiseach who, apparently, has responded sympathetically. I trust, therefore, that the Taoiseach will be discussing that matter with the Minister in the coming days. Perhaps the Minister can re-examine that situation. Fortunately, many sporting clubs and organisations are now in a position to have their own premises. We should be encouraging the use of such premises to ensure they become a greater focal point within local communities.

I congratulate the Minister on what he has done, but we must be more realistic about pub licensing laws. The Bill is but a small step and in a sense it is something of a fudge. I take it the jury is out and that the Minister will be willing to reconsider that argument. To reiterate, I find the three different closing times quite bizarre and I suspect they will be totally unworkable. I heard Deputy O'Flynn commenting on the matter today. Earlier the Taoiseach commented on Monday morning absenteeism as one of the reasons for restrictions on Sunday night licensing hours, but the current restrictions have not worked in that regard. The more rules and regulations we have in place, the less they seem to work. Therefore, I hope the Minister will opt for one closing time.

In common with previous speakers, I welcome the Bill. This debate affords us an opportunity to discuss the licensing laws and, in particular, alcohol abuse which is now rampant. As a fellow county man, I compliment the Minister on introducing more legislation. It should be recognised that the Minister spends more time in the House dealing with legislation than any other Minister, and he deserves to be complimented on that fact.

However, there was something of a contradiction in the Minister's opening statement in which he said of the Bill: "It is, I believe, the most comprehensive single package of reform measures ever introduced to the Oireachtas on this particular issue". Yet, on page two of his speech the Minister said: "I recognise that more remains to be done and for this reason I will shortly establish a commission on licensing". However, if the legislation was comprehensive there would be no need for a commission on licensing. It is unfortunate the Minister did not go all the way when the Bill was being drafted.

I compliment the Vintners' Federation of Ireland on its lobbying prowess. With all other representatives in the House, I listened to the views of the federation. Over the years we have lobbied on the federation's behalf by sending on its proposals. On this issue, however, the vintners have certainly won out and their influence is obvious from the various sections of the Bill.

I notice that the commission will examine the nature of the off-licence and other forms of licence, and will seek to establish what premises might benefit from licences and how such premises might be licensed. The work of the proposed commission is an important aspect of this debate.

I would remind the Minister of a small group of golf clubs called the "Nines of Kerry". There are some of them in the Minister's constituency. They believe they will not be able to survive unless they can sell alcohol and are allowed to operate restaurants and so on like any other club. They have made a submission to the Minister and I ask to him before Report Stage is completed, to consider their appeal for a more liberal approach to their application for a change in the licensing laws.

I read with interest Deputy Higgins's contribution last week in which he made a strong statement on the issue of changing the licensing laws in isolation without addressing the wider agenda of the social consequences of alcohol abuse. He said it was absurd not to do both in conjunction with each other. As Deputy Higgins said, the consequences of alcohol abuse are obvious right across our society. They are represented by broken homes and marriages, failed careers and so on. Alcohol abuse destroys the health of young people and can lead to unwanted under age pregnancies which totally change the focus of young people in regard to their future careers and restricts them in many instances. That issue should have been addressed to some extent in the Bill, for instance by introducing an identity card system, but the Bill narrowly focuses on changing the closing times.

The opening times proposed will give rise to confusion. I know there is a good reason for having people out of the pubs earlier on Sunday night, but the Minister should try to standardise the times. There will be total confusion as regards St. Patrick's Day, Christmas Eve and other days. No doubt other speakers mentioned that problem. Will the Minister do something about it because I envisage publicans using confusion as an excuse when they are visited by a member of the Garda Síochána? Perhaps the Minister might explain when replying the reason he decided on these time schedules?

Other speakers will probably refer to the need for a broader policy as regards the health education aspect of alcohol abuse. Some years ago I was involved in a public meeting on drug and alcohol abuse and the document I used was the national alcohol policy. One of the principal aims of that document was to influence people's attitudes and habits so that for those who choose to drink, moderate drinking becomes personally and socially acceptable and favoured in the Irish culture. The policy document recommended a range of initiatives aimed at increasing knowledge of the health effects of alcohol and increasing awareness of sensible drinking and so on. That is not reflected in the Bill before us and I ask the Minister to refer to that when replying.

The Bill does not refer to health education, which I have mentioned many times in this House. Young people need to be educated in this area because they are being bombarded with various messages from the television and in cinemas regarding the positive aspects of alcohol. It is claimed it will boost their social life, even their athleticism. People will have to be told the truth about the damage alcohol can cause to the body, health and mind and the diseases it can cause. Those effects will have to be spelled out clearly as were the effects of smoking in the anti-smoking campaign. A recent survey by the National Youth Council indicated that approximately 81% of people between the ages of 15 and 24 drink alcohol.

I received a submission from a local supermarket owner, which I will forward to the Minister, who is very concerned about the effects of the Bill. He points out – perhaps the Minister might refer to this when replying – that as far as the EU is concerned, wine and beer are similar products and that it seems ridiculous that he can sell wine but not beer even though wine has a much higher alcohol content than beer. He went on to say that he understood this was in breach of EU competition laws and that it would be grossly unjust to ignore his sector. I am grateful for the opportunity to raise these points with the Minister this afternoon.

At a time when transparency seems to be the order of the day, I acknowledge that I am the holder of a licence so I have a vested interest in the matter we are discussing today. There are very few people who do not have an interest in the Bill. This is an issue that has been widely discussed. The Minister paid tribute to the sub-committee of the Oireachtas joint committee which dealt with this issue and undertook a major study on the licensing laws. He acknowledged the contribution that committee made, and the foundation it laid in terms of this Bill, and accepted many of its recommendations.

There is no denying that pubs play an important part in Irish life. Some would argue they play too big a part. Many of the contributions made in this House are spoken about in pubs and people give their own views on the way politicians perform. No doubt we have given them plenty of ammunition in recent weeks in particular. Post-mortems take place on a regular basis in pubs on football matches and on sport in general and the later the hour, the more definite people are about the way matches were won and lost. That will always be the case.

Despite all the debate on changing the licensing laws, there was never any possibility of reaching a real consensus on the matter. The Minister consulted a number of groups, accepted their proposals and tried to facilitate the different views on this issue, but he had a difficult job in trying to provide a new Bill. Listening to many of the speakers, I believe the Minister has reached a reasonable compromise. Even his worst critics would accept that.

Alcohol is portrayed on television and in the papers as a wonderful product which gives people a little boost and makes them feel good. The drinks industry spends millions of pounds promoting its product, and that is understandable. Anyone who is producing a product will do the same. The majority of people who enjoy drink do so in moderation but, unfortunately, many people do not have the same control. They drink to excess and major difficulties follow as a result.

The majority of people, particularly couples, only drink at weekends. They are not in a position to go out drinking because they have mortgages to pay, education costs, etc. They are quite happy to go for a few social drinks with friends and then go home. Unfortunately, throughout Ireland there are people who become addicted to drink. As Deputy Deenihan said, this has serious consequences. Unfortunately, the persons involved not only damage themselves but family members also suffer. They may neglect parental duties and their work may suffer with careers going down the drain. Young people with sporting potential often fail to reach it because of over-indulgence in alcohol. I do not want to give the impression that by introducing this Bill we are promoting the consumption of alcohol. Unfortunately, a number of people cannot handle it and this causes serious difficulties.

One person who has done tremendous work in this area is Sr. Consilio, who set up a number of units throughout the country to deal with alcoholics. She probably meets people when they feel at rock bottom, with low self-esteem and in some cases when their families have had enough and disowned them. She has been successful in dealing with alcoholics who must first accept their problem and be willing to change their ways. Sr. Consilio has been successful in helping alcoholics restore their dignity and begin leading normal lives again. The necessity for the Government to fund sport was mentioned earlier. It is important that work such as that carried out by Sr. Consilio and others is also funded properly.

Despite the abuse of alcohol, our licensing laws needed to be reformed. I am glad the Minister has introduced new measures. The introduction of this Bill was important because of major changes in work practices, the amount of spare time people have and the times at which they socialise. The main features of this Bill are the extension in hours of trading, the new licensing arrangements and removal of barriers to entry to the trade, the new measures for the restaurant sector, the major changes to deal with under-age drinking and the measures dealing with registered clubs, greyhound tracks and racecourses, which are to be welcomed. There are many greyhound tracks and racecourses around the country which have spent thousands of pounds providing new facilities and upgrading existing ones and for the majority of the year they are unused. They are wonderful assets and it is important they are used as much as possible. The measures taken by the Minister will achieve that.

Section 15 deals with the issuing, upgrading and transfer of licences. I am concerned about some of these provisions and perhaps the Minister will clarify them. Sometimes Bills can be difficult to read but as I understand it, section 15 provides that no suitable commercial premises which previously held a wine on-licence can apply for a new licence. I do not think the Minister intended this to be the case and perhaps he will explain how he will deal with this, or perhaps he will clarify the matter for me.

Regarding grounds of objection, section 15(1)(c) refers to unsuitability for the needs of persons residing in the neighbourhood. One of my constituents wishes to establish a new public house in a suitable premises which was recently granted public house planning permission. These premises are situated in an extensive office and light industrial development park with no residents to be catered for as there is no residential population within a half a mile of the site. The demand and service relates to a working population of approximately 8,000 people. Is it intended that a new public house or off-licence should not be granted in such circumstances or that it should relate solely to the residential population to the exclusion of the working population? An amendment needs to be introduced to facilitate the working population. I would like the Minister to explain the thinking behind this provision.

Many Members have spoken about under age drinking and have supported what the Minister has done in this regard. They mean well and it is popular to congratulate the Minister. Any sensible person knows about the major under age drinking problem throughout the country. However, it can be a difficult matter for a publican to deal with. As we grow older it becomes more difficult to judge people's ages and the absence of a national identity card makes it more difficult. I know of cases where people have false identification but one would put one's shirt on a bet that they were over 18. It is becoming very difficult to judge whether a person is under or over 18. Listening to some of the contributions, one would think publicans are encouraging under age drinking. The last thing the vast majority of publicans want on their premises is under age drinking because it turns adult drinkers off to see under age drinkers in a pub.

I realise it is a problem to which there are not any easy solutions. The Minister's proposals are too severe. Temporary closures should be left to the discretion of the court, certainly for the first offence. A publican could innocently serve a 17 year old a drink and he would then have to close his premises for one week. The measure is too severe as, apart from the cost, there is also the embarrassment of having to put a notice on the door that the pub is closed because the publican served an under age person, even though it might not have been intended. I appeal to the Minister to look at this again. If a publican has committed more than one or two offences, he should be punished severely. We cannot condone under age drinking. However, it is difficult to judge the age of a person even if there are security personnel on the door. Given the availability of false identification, it is difficult to monitor people and ensure everyone on the premises is aged 18 years or over.

The proposal to allow holders of a wine retailer's on-licence to sell beer with a meal will lead to spirits being sold which in turn will lead to an increase in the number of outlets selling alcohol. This is a fair assessment of the situation. A number of publicans have expressed genuine concern about this. Reading the newspapers this morning, one would think publicans are rolling in money with a huge mark-up on what they are selling. The majority of pubs, like many shops, are just surviving. Many of the big pubs are doing exceptionally well. However, it is just a job for most publicans, which gives them nothing more than an income. They are just surviving. Most publicans have made a major investment in their property, which it is important to protect. I know this is not the Minister's intention but if we allow the Bill to pass as it stands, it could facilitate the opening of a large number of drinking outlets throughout the country. The Minister does not want that and we should not allow it to happen.

The Minister said in the House last week at the beginning of Second Stage that "section 29 repeals section 8 of the Intoxicating Liquor (General) Act, 1924, which requires that all sales of alcohol in an on-licence must be for ‘ready cash'". Deputy Dukes commented on that earlier, which reminded me of an embarrassing moment I had in the Curragh recently when I met with a number of Army spouses to deal with a matter relating to the hospital in the Curragh. When the meeting was over I kindly invited a number of them back to the local mess for a few drinks. I decided to order them a drink, but just as I took the last drink off the counter I realised I had no money in my pocket. Fortunately, the general secretary of PDFORRA was there and asked me what I would have. He thought I was joking when I asked him for £20 but he gave it to me. The money was not in a brown envelope and was repaid. I was reminded of that incident when I heard Deputy Dukes speaking earlier.

A number of speakers criticised what the Minister has done in relation to trading hours. However, when one looks at it objectively, the Minister's proposals make a lot of sense. There are three different closing times during the week. However, people are not ignorant or stupid and I do not think the hours will be the cause of confusion as some speakers have said they will be. It is important not to forget the unsociable hours worked by pub staff, who have to put up with a lot. Sometimes they meet people who are not in the best of form but they must always put a brave face on it and try to be nice to them, no matter what state they are in. I am quite happy with the Minister's proposals in that regard. Most socialising and drinking is done at weekends – the figures for absenteeism on Monday mornings show that. The Minister has made the necessary changes in regard to bank holiday weekends, which is desirable. I am quite happy with the opening hour changes he has proposed and he should leave well enough alone.

I compliment the Minister on engaging in widespread consultation on this matter, which was threatened for a long time. People talk about the necessity to bring in this law for tourists, although I do not see tourists drinking that much. These changes were badly needed by Irish people and the tourists can enjoy the extra opening hours like the rest of us. Reform of the licensing laws was badly needed and the Minister has reached a reasonable compromise on it. I outlined my concerns on some provisions in the Bill and I hope the Minister will take them on board. I look forward to his reply on those.

The Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation will, I hope, announce the successful applications for lottery funding over the next couple of weeks. It is very important for us to show the people we are very concerned about sport and that we realise there must be a certain balance in people's lives. Many very good sports people also indulge in a little drop every now and then. We are trying to facilitate people as best we can. We are not encouraging people to drink, but we are making certain changes in the times they can go for a drink.

We are also very conscious of the need to promote sport. Resources are much more available now than they have been for years. The Government has been very supportive of sport in general, for which we have got some flak. We must defend and continue that support, despite the criticism we have received from some elements in the media. It is important to have a certain balance. Sport must be promoted and encouraged at all costs. Any money spent on sport is money well spent.

I thank the Minister for introducing this Bill, which was extensively debated in the Seanad and outside the Oireachtas. I would like him to introduce the few amendments I mentioned, to put the final polish on a good Bill.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Crawford.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. While, as the Minister said, it has been a long time in gestation, it is rather timid in what it delivers. We heard a lot about new and relaxed continental style licensing laws, but they do not seem to have materialised. The Bill does not go nearly far enough towards contributing to the reduction of underage drinking. The issue and transfer of licences has been fudged completely and will probably be a disaster.

I welcome, however, the changes in opening hours, as far as they go, although I do not think they go nearly far enough. I realise I probably have a fairly liberal attitude to adult drinking habits and I know others have very strongly and legitimately held views that longer opening hours would lead to an increased number of alcoholics and give them further opportunities to drink. However, I do not hold that view and I doubt its validity. If it were valid, the corollary would also be true and our restricted licensing laws would have resulted in lower levels of alcoholism here than in countries with less restrictive laws. However, I do not think anyone is claiming that for Ireland. I would go even further and suggest there may be a causal relationship between the high levels of alcoholism in Ireland and our restrictive licensing laws. In any event, the changes are fairly minimal and I do not think they will bring about any behavioural changes, for good or evil.

I want to speak about Parts 3 and 4 of the Bill because I have very strong views on under age drinking and its effect on the mental, physical, social and psychological development of our children. As a citizen, never mind as a public representative, one would need to have one's head firmly buried in the sand not to see that underage drinking is rampant in society. It is not just the occasional transgression but is now the norm. It is not confined to cities or so-called disadvantaged areas but is happening right across society and the country. Any public representative will say that the single most reported cause of nuisance in urban areas is groups of youths gathering to drink in every open space, alley and laneway they can find.

My main objection is not the nuisance, petty vandalism and so on that causes, although that is very annoying, but what it is doing to young children, particularly when they mix alcohol with so-called recreational drugs. These are lethal cocktails for young children, particularly for young, developing brains. I am not saying this can all be solved by this Bill or by this Minister. As other Members said, this is a cultural and social problem and requires a complex response, but a chance to do something really meaningful has been lost. I welcome the penalties to be imposed on those who sell drink to under age children. The penalty cannot be high enough for someone who knowingly sells drink to a person who is under age, but "knowingly" is the key. We have to give sellers of alcohol a way of knowing people's age and it is unfair to put the onus of proof on the sellers while not introducing a national identity card scheme. I have heard all the civil liberties arguments against identity cards, but those are not applicable any more. As society becomes more sophisticated, identity cards of one type or another are becoming indispensable. One literally cannot go out one's front door without a variety of cards – credit cards, cash cards, student cards, RSI cards and drug refund cards. One can go into any bank in the world and be identified by one's credit card. Why can the Government not introduce a single national identity card for everyone, if only to protect our children? If it achieved nothing else it would be worth that. The Minister should reconsider this. I know he has thought about it, but we should grasp the nettle now.

Part 4 deals with the transfer of licences and it is here the Minister has balked completely. Given the 12% growth in the economy and more money and tourists in the country, there is an increased demand that merits the issue of additional licences. Surely consumer need should dictate the number of licences and not historical accidents. We should share those licences out among a hugely increased population. The Minister's decision to meet this demand by insisting on the permanent extinguishing of a full licence in order to open an off-licence is wrong. That reduces the overall supply of public licensed premises. Similarly, new entrants in the pub business can still only acquire a licence by buying one from an existing licence holder without reference to the consumer needs of the area. On the face of it, it may seem that removing the ban on the transfer of licences between urban and rural areas is something of a liberalisation, but such is the pent-up demand in urban areas that intense competition from hoteliers, publicans, supermarkets and off-licences has already pushed up prices and will effectively ensure that small newcomers cannot compete and will never be able to enter the market. It is worth remembering that the market in drink at the moment is one where lack of competition has resulted in inflation of 5.2% already this year, which is way above the average.

There is no rationale I can think of for not issuing new licences in expanding areas. The reason this issue sends out a warning light to me is that I have considerable experience of the Dublin taxi industry. When the State artificially curtails supply while demand is expanding, the only possible result is an explosive market for licences. That is precisely the mistake that was made in the taxi industry and the result will be the same here, where the value of the licence increases to the point where the capital value becomes much more important than the purpose for which the licence was issued in the first place. I am not suggesting this industry should not be regulated; it should be rigorously regulated, with clear criteria for the issue of licences.

However, under this Bill the main criterion is the ability to pay an exorbitant licence cost. There can be no rationale for anti-competitive arrangements whereby people have to travel further for a drink and then pay more when they have one. It is clear that that has happened in Dublin in the past. There is no justification for the State erecting barriers to entry into this industry and not into others, particularly barriers that are purely financial, such as in this case. I read in the newspapers that this section was drawn up in response to the powerful publicans' lobby. I do not know if that is true, but this measure is not in their long-term interests. I doubt any Dublin taxi drivers still think it was a good idea to curtail supply and force up the price of taxi licences. In an expanding market such an anti-competitive practice cannot really survive the pressure that will result, as happened in the taxi market. If the Minister persists with this he will end up where the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, has ended up – in court, with no improvement in the situation and digging a bigger hole than the one he started with. When a Minister goes the route of protecting one group to the detriment of other, competing groups – particularly to the detriment of the consumer, as in this case – he or she will rue the day. I know a commission is being set up and that the Minister has said this is not the end of the matter, but if we are to tackle this issue we should do so now, before a false market for licences emerges.

I welcome the Bill. The Minister has listened to the main lobby groups and consulted many others, including, I presume, Deputy Healy-Rae, who was very vocal on these issues before becoming a Member. The Bill has been a long time in gestation and I welcome the changes regarding the mistakes made by the Minister relating to the millennium when he first introduced the Bill.

The holy hour was no longer a reality anyway and the change there is a step in the right direction, as there is no sense in one group being able to serve drink through that period when others cannot. The late opening hours do not cause me a major problem as, in many rural areas those hours operated in reality. It reminds me of the story of the person asking when pubs closed in a certain town. The answer was: "Sometime in September." It is a matter of the local gardaí implementing the new rules and I hope they do so in an even-handed way all around the country. The extra opening hours will cause some prob lems, with staff in small, family-owned units coming under pressure.

However, the opening hours cannot be dealt with in isolation. There has been much talk recently about the damage and deaths caused by hard drugs, but drink also has wrecked many homes and marriages in addition to causing death through road accidents. One need only visit the casualty unit of any hospital at the weekend to see the results of road traffic accidents as well those of street or domestic violence, to see that drink is a huge problem. In Monaghan General Hospital those casualties must be put into the wards and they cause major problems for the elderly and others who must put up with these intrusions in the middle of the night.

The need for identity cards has already been mentioned and it is unbelievable that a provision dealing with this has not been included in the Bill. The Minister should introduce such a provision now, if possible. The vintners lobbied for many changes and they hoped an identity card scheme would be introduced. As Deputy Mitchell said, most young people have cards of various types, such as credit cards and RSI cards, and it is hard to understand that we cannot provide proper identity cards in this day and age. In America, people have identity cards and a barman can establish if someone is 18 and whether he can be allowed to drink on the premises. That will not stop people from getting drink outside the premises, but we must make every effort.

Debate adjourned.
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